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Skill vs. Gear


Larzi

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I see a lot of threads about removing PvP gear so even the playing field ... but like........ That would make it worse i assure you.

 

Imagine you just hit lvl 50 and are looking forward to the massive upgrades provided by the free Recruit gear, but instead of pvp gear you are stuck pvping with your crappy greens from PvE sub 50.

 

You que for a warzone to fight against people with more than twice your HPs that have been farming NM ops for the last few months.

 

The fact remains that there will ALWAYS be a large gap from the hardcore players that stick to the gear grind and the fresh 50s (or those that have the highest skill obviously) that aren't completing their daliy and weekly every single time.

 

Recruit gear is a blessing for most casual players.

 

The current gear system is great, because once you get max war hero gear it REALLY does become about skill against other similarly geared pvpers.

 

Have a good day.

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I am putting in this reply after 41 views and not a single post.

 

Since there have been numerous additions to the complaing threads very similar to this topic i will assume that the truthiness of this post pwns your complaints.

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So it's okay that skill matters when the gear is the same.

 

You're acting like the WH want to play other WH.

 

1. So why have gear? WH vs WH is the same as recruit vs recruit, the only difference is hard numbering, but they're identical, comparatively.

 

2. Since number one has no rational answer, you might as well have everyone start off with the same gear so that everyone's equal like you're insinuating, but then everyone's ALWAYS equal.

Edited by Zunayson
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Fact: not everyone is equal.

 

Me for example, im max war hero gear as a tank vanguard= 1322 expertise and 24.1k hps

 

If i was able to use my PvE against other players in PvE gear....= 29k hps and 9k armor

 

Take your pick.

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1. So why have gear? WH vs WH is the same as recruit vs recruit, the only difference is hard numbering, but they're identical, comparatively. .

this isn't completely true. some classes benefit from other classes by filling up their soft cap. certain classes benefit more than others stacking power once soft caps are reached cuz power does more for them.

 

nevertheless, all gear the same stats would be closer to even playing field. I don't really care that there are gear tiers. it takes a whole week to graduate from most of the recruit stuff.

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So it's okay that skill matters when the gear is the same.

 

You're acting like the WH want to play other WH.

 

1. So why have gear? WH vs WH is the same as recruit vs recruit, the only difference is hard numbering, but they're identical, comparatively.

 

2. Since number one has no rational answer, you might as well have everyone start off with the same gear so that everyone's equal like you're insinuating, but then everyone's ALWAYS equal.

 

The only thing that is the same on WH gear is stat allocation. I switch things out to fit my play style, so my gear will most assuredly be different than other operatives who accept cookie cutterness.

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This romanticized "Skill vs. Skill" concept is nothing but a newbie fantasy. It is invented as one of many excuses for a bad player with a huge "size of ego - to - actual skill" ratio to comfort oneself by constantly blaming something else as the reason they are defeated so often in PvP games.

 

In actual combat there is no "equal condition" where pure skill vs. skill collide. Even if gear level is the same, there is always a huge number of outside/inside factors which influence a fight. If its not for the gear, certainly the terribad player will always rely on the next excuse, and bring it up as some bogus "problem" that is supposed to be "killing" PvP. If its not the ganking/numbers advantage, range/melee difference, terrain/hazards, WZ environment, LoS/obstacles, class balance, skill balance, and on and on and on and on... they just simply dig up some next excuse to use.

 

In reality, in any combat, "pure skill" is but one of many factors which influence the outcome, and such is the reason why experienced players usually define "skill" as a very large concept that encompasses one's ability to use/adapt a variety of elements and conditions around them -- and not just how and when you press a button.

 

Among those wide range of things that make up "skill" for experienced PvP players, preparation and training before the fight itself is one of them. Top players in PvP make sure that not only are they sharp in personal combat technique, but also make preparations to increase their chance of survival + wins in any way they can. They constantly, and so very dilligently make efforts to be equipped with the best of gear/items in any way they can.

 

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a "player undergeared, but excellent in skill, and would win many games if it were not for gear difference" -- the only exception being an already experienced player making a new character. This is basically "the Natural" complex... the romantic dream of an ungroomed, untrained, natural player with so much potential that in some sports/game that suddenly appears out of nowhere and trumps professional players.

 

These are all, excuses. Made-up fantasies to cover one's own insecurity.

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You guys are pretty much on point (not the whiners).

 

Edit: I've seen teams running around naked, just destroying people... So please tell me how those WH trinkets they kept on gave them such a large gear gap while others had full BM/WH?

Edited by Asukaa
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so many factors, skill and gear are two of the most important. So many others, just to list a few, please add more

 

-your skill

-opponent skill

-your gear

-opponent gear

-time available/willing to play

-opponent's time available/willing to play

-number of toons you actively play (or have played)

-number of toons your opponent actively plays (or have played)

-your understanding of class abilities

-your opponent's understanding of class abilities

-in game time spent in pvp

-opponent's in game time spent in pvp

-your team make up

-opposing team make up

-access to mods / buffs /consumables

-opponent's access to mods / buffs / consumables

-mouse / keyboard type

-opponent's mouse / keyboard type

-hungover or not

-opponent hungover or not

-high or not

-opponent high or not

-listening to baseball/podcasts or not

-opponent listening to baseball/podcasts or not

-using teamspeak/vent/etc or not

-opponent using teamspeak/vent/etc or not

-level of team competence

-opponent's level of team competence

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This romanticized "Skill vs. Skill" concept is nothing but a newbie fantasy. It is invented as one of many excuses for a bad player with a huge "size of ego - to - actual skill" ratio to comfort oneself by constantly blaming something else as the reason they are defeated so often in PvP games.

 

The most rational, truthful, and spot-on two sentences I've ever read posted on the PvP boards. This should be stickied. Hell...it should be on the log in screen, right above the patch notes.

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This romanticized "Skill vs. Skill" concept is nothing but a newbie fantasy. It is invented as one of many excuses for a bad player with a huge "size of ego - to - actual skill" ratio to comfort oneself by constantly blaming something else as the reason they are defeated so often in PvP games.

 

In actual combat there is no "equal condition" where pure skill vs. skill collide. Even if gear level is the same, there is always a huge number of outside/inside factors which influence a fight. If its not for the gear, certainly the terribad player will always rely on the next excuse, and bring it up as some bogus "problem" that is supposed to be "killing" PvP. If its not the ganking/numbers advantage, range/melee difference, terrain/hazards, WZ environment, LoS/obstacles, class balance, skill balance, and on and on and on and on... they just simply dig up some next excuse to use.

 

In reality, in any combat, "pure skill" is but one of many factors which influence the outcome, and such is the reason why experienced players usually define "skill" as a very large concept that encompasses one's ability to use/adapt a variety of elements and conditions around them -- and not just how and when you press a button.

 

Among those wide range of things that make up "skill" for experienced PvP players, preparation and training before the fight itself is one of them. Top players in PvP make sure that not only are they sharp in personal combat technique, but also make preparations to increase their chance of survival + wins in any way they can. They constantly, and so very dilligently make efforts to be equipped with the best of gear/items in any way they can.

 

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a "player undergeared, but excellent in skill, and would win many games if it were not for gear difference" -- the only exception being an already experienced player making a new character. This is basically "the Natural" complex... the romantic dream of an ungroomed, untrained, natural player with so much potential that in some sports/game that suddenly appears out of nowhere and trumps professional players.

 

These are all, excuses. Made-up fantasies to cover one's own insecurity.

 

Very well said, thank you.

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the only reason to make games gear based is... If you don't have skill just get better gear. Y'all stay put I'm gonna go play GW2

 

GW2 is going to be the same, except instead of a gear grind it will be a skill point grind. Maybe you should have opt'ed to play the beta's?

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This romanticized "Skill vs. Skill" concept is nothing but a newbie fantasy. It is invented as one of many excuses for a bad player with a huge "size of ego - to - actual skill" ratio to comfort oneself by constantly blaming something else as the reason they are defeated so often in PvP games.

 

In actual combat there is no "equal condition" where pure skill vs. skill collide. Even if gear level is the same, there is always a huge number of outside/inside factors which influence a fight. If its not for the gear, certainly the terribad player will always rely on the next excuse, and bring it up as some bogus "problem" that is supposed to be "killing" PvP. If its not the ganking/numbers advantage, range/melee difference, terrain/hazards, WZ environment, LoS/obstacles, class balance, skill balance, and on and on and on and on... they just simply dig up some next excuse to use.

 

In reality, in any combat, "pure skill" is but one of many factors which influence the outcome, and such is the reason why experienced players usually define "skill" as a very large concept that encompasses one's ability to use/adapt a variety of elements and conditions around them -- and not just how and when you press a button.

 

Among those wide range of things that make up "skill" for experienced PvP players, preparation and training before the fight itself is one of them. Top players in PvP make sure that not only are they sharp in personal combat technique, but also make preparations to increase their chance of survival + wins in any way they can. They constantly, and so very dilligently make efforts to be equipped with the best of gear/items in any way they can.

 

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a "player undergeared, but excellent in skill, and would win many games if it were not for gear difference" -- the only exception being an already experienced player making a new character. This is basically "the Natural" complex... the romantic dream of an ungroomed, untrained, natural player with so much potential that in some sports/game that suddenly appears out of nowhere and trumps professional players.

 

These are all, excuses. Made-up fantasies to cover one's own insecurity.

 

sexcellent post

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I see a lot of threads about removing PvP gear so even the playing field ... but like........ That would make it worse i assure you.

 

Imagine you just hit lvl 50 and are looking forward to the massive upgrades provided by the free Recruit gear, but instead of pvp gear you are stuck pvping with your crappy greens from PvE sub 50.

 

You que for a warzone to fight against people with more than twice your HPs that have been farming NM ops for the last few months.

 

The fact remains that there will ALWAYS be a large gap from the hardcore players that stick to the gear grind and the fresh 50s (or those that have the highest skill obviously) that aren't completing their daliy and weekly every single time.

 

Recruit gear is a blessing for most casual players.

 

The current gear system is great, because once you get max war hero gear it REALLY does become about skill against other similarly geared pvpers.

 

Have a good day.

 

I don't believe this, I believe recruit gear was an appeasement. You're still pathetic without Battlemaster no matter the skill level

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This romanticized "Skill vs. Skill" concept is nothing but a newbie fantasy. It is invented as one of many excuses for a bad player with a huge "size of ego - to - actual skill" ratio to comfort oneself by constantly blaming something else as the reason they are defeated so often in PvP games.

 

In actual combat there is no "equal condition" where pure skill vs. skill collide. Even if gear level is the same, there is always a huge number of outside/inside factors which influence a fight. If its not for the gear, certainly the terribad player will always rely on the next excuse, and bring it up as some bogus "problem" that is supposed to be "killing" PvP. If its not the ganking/numbers advantage, range/melee difference, terrain/hazards, WZ environment, LoS/obstacles, class balance, skill balance, and on and on and on and on... they just simply dig up some next excuse to use.

 

In reality, in any combat, "pure skill" is but one of many factors which influence the outcome, and such is the reason why experienced players usually define "skill" as a very large concept that encompasses one's ability to use/adapt a variety of elements and conditions around them -- and not just how and when you press a button.

 

Among those wide range of things that make up "skill" for experienced PvP players, preparation and training before the fight itself is one of them. Top players in PvP make sure that not only are they sharp in personal combat technique, but also make preparations to increase their chance of survival + wins in any way they can. They constantly, and so very dilligently make efforts to be equipped with the best of gear/items in any way they can.

 

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a "player undergeared, but excellent in skill, and would win many games if it were not for gear difference" -- the only exception being an already experienced player making a new character. This is basically "the Natural" complex... the romantic dream of an ungroomed, untrained, natural player with so much potential that in some sports/game that suddenly appears out of nowhere and trumps professional players.

 

These are all, excuses. Made-up fantasies to cover one's own insecurity.

 

I'm being hit by 4.2k High Impact bolts (All BM save for implants, earpiece, and offhand). I'm hitting my spam move for 900, 1500 on crit (Flame Burst). Take the best player in the world in my posistion, pretty much any non-autistic player WILL win given they both use equal cooldowns (Because let's face it, if I have to use all the cooldowns in my arsenal to marginally beat someone who uses no over 1 minute cooldowns, there IS a problem).

 

I'm beating people with 17k hp marginally (I have 15k), any less and I am almost always winning. Any more and I lose.

 

Its gear.

 

Although you're right in saying there may be not such a thing as "Good player, bad gear", there IS such a thing as "bad gear, cannot compete". The problem is in the imbalance, whether or not we'd win if it's equal is not the point.

Edited by Zunayson
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For bad players, this is indeed true.

 

For all players, it is indeed true.

 

Full augmented WH will kill recruit gear, no matter the class, and very little skill involved; Of course if you put an autistic 5 year old in front of the keyboard, the recruit gear would win, but since when do autistic 5 year olds play video games?

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GW2 is going to be the same, except instead of a gear grind it will be a skill point grind. Maybe you should have opt'ed to play the beta's?

 

Pretty sure when you PvP you get put at level 80 with max skill points and traits. If not, skill point quests aren't that hard to complete. Also you don't need every skill point, you can get the skills you want easily and quickly while leveling up

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For all players, it is indeed true.

 

Full augmented WH will kill recruit gear, no matter the class, and very little skill involved; Of course if you put an autistic 5 year old in front of the keyboard, the recruit gear would win, but since when do autistic 5 year olds play video games?

 

For all players, it is indeed not true at all, but blanket assumptions are totally fun! I'm not talking about 1 vs 1's here, I'm simply referring to countless times I've seen Recruit type players do just fine (if not better than some WH geared players) due to skill. Sure, if you took 2 equally skilled players and put one in recruit and the other in WH there will be a difference, but recruit geared players that have solid skills in PvP will be fine through the short grind for BM. The only aspect of recruit gear I dislike, is the HP factor, which indeed needs a bump so don't label this as me totally riding the recruit is fine train. Simply stating a fact earlier.

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I see a lot of threads about removing PvP gear so even the playing field ... but like........ That would make it worse i assure you.

 

Imagine you just hit lvl 50 and are looking forward to the massive upgrades provided by the free Recruit gear, but instead of pvp gear you are stuck pvping with your crappy greens from PvE sub 50.

 

You que for a warzone to fight against people with more than twice your HPs that have been farming NM ops for the last few months.

 

The fact remains that there will ALWAYS be a large gap from the hardcore players that stick to the gear grind and the fresh 50s (or those that have the highest skill obviously) that aren't completing their daliy and weekly every single time.

 

Recruit gear is a blessing for most casual players.

 

The current gear system is great, because once you get max war hero gear it REALLY does become about skill against other similarly geared pvpers.

 

Have a good day.

 

I have been grinding War Hero now for quite some time (maybe 2-3 months) on my Exclusive PVP toon, I do nothing but PVP on him, obviously that is not all i do in game and have 4 x 50 PVE toons, but the grind for War Heor gear compared to say Rakata is borderline Ridiculous, Especially with no Solo queue for RWZ....

 

I see no need what so ever for Expertise rated gear on a PVE server, needless to say I see no point in it at all....If players want to grind rakata via PVP then put that gear on the vendors and abolish the Expertise gear once and for all...

 

PVP is about fun, not grinding, especially in a game that supports ZERO open world PVP and has 4 War Zones. Its repetitive, boring, mind numbing and excludes a lot of people based on these facts...

 

No expertise = Better PVP all round and tbh you might then actually find some players in Ilum...!!! ???

 

Or at the very least

 

PVP servers = Full Expertise, Even on OPS, Flashpoints... (OPS, Flashpoint gear not quite as good as PVP comm gear)

PVE server = No Expertise, all gear is PVE....

 

this then stops the question, as everyone is on an even playing field, and skill is all that wins...>Ow and CC.

Edited by Nippon
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For all players, it is indeed not true at all, but blanket assumptions are totally fun! I'm not talking about 1 vs 1's here, I'm simply referring to countless times I've seen Recruit type players do just fine (if not better than some WH geared players) due to skill. Sure, if you took 2 equally skilled players and put one in recruit and the other in WH there will be a difference, but recruit geared players that have solid skills in PvP will be fine through the short grind for BM. The only aspect of recruit gear I dislike, is the HP factor, which indeed needs a bump so don't label this as me totally riding the recruit is fine train. Simply stating a fact earlier.

 

In yellow. I 100% agree. If more people had this mind set we may see less quitters before WZs start.

 

Gear simply takes time. Skill is a different beast all together. Some with skill don't have the time (or stomach) to max out gear on a single toon. That doesn't make them less than.

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sorry op but you don't get it... not at all... your argument is not even based upon the skill vs gear ... its gear vs gear... what needs to happen is gear be taken out of the pvp equation completely. set stats for class types... or hell if you are such a gear focused person... cosmetic gear per class that is just a costume pretty much but has stats applied to it. for example... you buy the combat medic gear set... it gives you set stats for combat medic. that way everyone who buys this set has the same stats... now you are reliant on skill. if you are going combat tech... buy the set that is for combat tech. IF you want to have more customization then have an empty augment slot on those costume pieces that way if you want more endurance, or more main stat you can add a bit of that... but not enough to be game breaking as is now...

 

"but but but PvE still has gear progression" that is gonna be your arguement... (i know it is) there is a huge difference between pvp and pve... that being you can choose what type of enemies you want to go against. If i jumped into Denova with 45 greens... guess what i am gonna get rolled. ALSO if you are such a progression nazzi, Have different cosmetic looks that you get upon valor completion... it promotes even gameplay, will the noobs get pwned... you bet... and they will have no excuse. right now.. with gear progression in PvP... you are alienating any new player base you may get.... gear progression is pve not pvp... pvp should be about skill... and right now it is dumbed down to gear making too much of a difference.

 

Its not about gear.... its stats.... make them set... and then the whiners will be shown they are bad... but the people who refined their skill will shine

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"but but but PvE still has gear progression" that is gonna be your arguement... (i know it is) there is a huge difference between pvp and pve... that being you can choose what type of enemies you want to go against. If i jumped into Denova with 45 greens... guess what i am gonna get rolled. ALSO if you are such a progression nazzi, Have different cosmetic looks that you get upon valor completion... it promotes even gameplay, will the noobs get pwned... you bet... and they will have no excuse. right now.. with gear progression in PvP... you are alienating any new player base you may get.... gear progression is pve not pvp... pvp should be about skill... and right now it is dumbed down to gear making too much of a difference.

 

Not many people care about only getting aesthetics. I only care about looks, it's the reason that I sacrificed Assassins ugly pink gear set bonus for +1 Recklessness charge, and instead wore the Sorcs nice black/red/white gear before WH was released. But most only care about stat progression and gear crutch. I mean look at how many play WoW, Rift, SW:TOR. Or I could be wrong and it's just because not many games have adapted a horizontal progression system over the vertical progression system.

 

People who dont care about the gear crutch and just want fun, balanced PvP without having to grind to be competitive (or stay competitive because they took a month(+) long break), will be/have already left (for the most part) to play that upcoming "other game". And some will stay here because they're just sick of the fantasy setting, and prefer science fantasy. To each his/her own though. :)

Edited by Katsuragisama
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sorry op but you don't get it... not at all... your argument is not even based upon the skill vs gear ... its gear vs gear... what needs to happen is gear be taken out of the pvp equation completely. set stats for class types... or hell if you are such a gear focused person... cosmetic gear per class that is just a costume pretty much but has stats applied to it. for example... you buy the combat medic gear set... it gives you set stats for combat medic. that way everyone who buys this set has the same stats... now you are reliant on skill. if you are going combat tech... buy the set that is for combat tech. IF you want to have more customization then have an empty augment slot on those costume pieces that way if you want more endurance, or more main stat you can add a bit of that... but not enough to be game breaking as is now...

 

"but but but PvE still has gear progression" that is gonna be your argument

 

No, my argument is gonna be that what you are describing would be exactly what happens if BW actually put useful stats on the default gear sets. The fact that you have to buy 3 more sets of gear to pull one mod from each piece and one enhancement from each of set of different pieces to get useful stats is what causes gear disparity. People who optimize versus people who don't rather than "BM vs WH" since the difference between optimized BM and optimized WH is not much at all.

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