Mercs and sorcs can do Chapter 2 in about 7 minutes, the same time it takes an operative to do chapter 1. Actually I know a juggernaut that can do Ch1 in about the same time. i don't think stealth is really the problem, its finding the chapter balanced to your class. There's a huge disparity to the chapters depending on the class you're on.

If stealth is really an issue though, I think the best method is add high stealth scanning sensors to the mobs, not nerf a stealthers cxp. A non stealth can still skip quite a few mobs depending on how you do it.

This guy gets it, to everyone crying nerf stealthers, you don't get it. You can just as quickly clear master mode chapters with other classes that don't have stealth but have very strong AE's or AE's that knock down or stun enemies. The trash damage output in master chapters is the only real hurdle. By shifting the CXP to the trash, or adding stealth detection, you are just making other classes benefit more.

Mercs and sorcs can do Chapter 2 in about 7 minutes, the same time it takes an operative to do chapter 1. Actually I know a juggernaut that can do Ch1 in about the same time. i don't think stealth is really the problem, its finding the chapter balanced to your class. There's a huge disparity to the chapters depending on the class you're on.

If stealth is really an issue though, I think the best method is add high stealth scanning sensors to the mobs, not nerf a stealthers cxp. A non stealth can still skip quite a few mobs depending on how you do it.

So are you arguing that a non-stealth class can do any chapter faster then a stealth one, not as fast but any faster? I don't see how. If a non-stealther can do it in 7 I am feeling good about a stealther doing it as fast or faster and with less work or effort.

Either way granting cxp based on percentage of mobs killed still evens things out. High stealth scan removes the benefit of stealth and hurts their ability to get opening back attacks, stealth stuns and the like. This method leaves them all those tools and allows them to decide to run for speed or max cxp, it gives options instead of taking them away.

Because they're doing everything they can to drag out the grind to cover their butts. Personally, I think everyone should ignore galactic command and go make more alts. Maybe if people stop doing GC, then they're admit how horrid of a mistake they made.

Nah, probably not.

This guy gets it, to everyone crying nerf stealthers, you don't get it. You can just as quickly clear master mode chapters with other classes that don't have stealth but have very strong AE's or AE's that knock down or stun enemies. The trash damage output in master chapters is the only real hurdle. By shifting the CXP to the trash, or adding stealth detection, you are just making other classes benefit more.

I'm not crying "nerf stealth." I happen to agree that the folks with strong AoE output can do pretty well, and the stealthers may have an advantage in passing trash, but they're going to struggle a bit against the bosses.

So are you arguing that a non-stealth class can do any chapter faster then a stealth one, not as fast but any faster? I don't see how. If a non-stealther can do it in 7 I am feeling good about a stealther doing it as fast or faster and with less work or effort.

 

Either way granting cxp based on percentage of mobs killed still evens things out. High stealth scan removes the benefit of stealth and hurts their ability to get opening back attacks, stealth stuns and the like. This method leaves them all those tools and allows them to decide to run for speed or max cxp, it gives options instead of taking them away.

No not really, but I guess I should say it depends on which class. Just taking chapter 2 for example. I do that chapter way faster on a merc than on an operative. Ranged is a huge advantage in that chapter. You can walk around 90% of the mobs also non stealthed.

But on the other hand I think chapter one is minorly faster on a stealth, but it's still dependent on gear/cc/class. Like i said i know a jug that can do it just as fast as my op.

I see your point about stealth scanning, and I suppose, the idea of option to kill to adds more cxp couldn't hurt.

I'm not crying "nerf stealth." I happen to agree that the folks with strong AoE output can do pretty well, and the stealthers may have an advantage in passing trash, but they're going to struggle a bit against the bosses.

Do you think a assassin tank will have any harder a time against a boss then a jug tank? I don't nor having done it on both have I. And yet in a fight with two bosses if they can be CC'd that assassin is clearly at a huge advantage as he can stun one while he kills the other and the jug cannot and must face both at once.

Mercs and sorcs can do Chapter 2 in about 7 minutes, SNIP......

You got any links to this? So far I'm coming up with no other class than stealthier that can pull it off in that short amount of time? I can't find anyone I know in game that can currently pull it off nor does any searches pull it up for me.

Even the few Sentinel videos use their limited stealth to pull on 7min times or lower.

Do you think a assassin tank will have any harder a time against a boss then a jug tank? I don't nor having done it on both have I. And yet in a fight with two bosses if they can be CC'd that assassin is clearly at a huge advantage as he can stun one while he kills the other and the jug cannot and must face both at once.

Which has nothing in particular to do with stealth, and everything to do with the lack of hard CC on some classes. So now they need to rebalance Crowd Control on everyone? The point being, there's always going to be class imbalances as long as each class is distinct from one another. Make stealth worthless in bypassing mobs, and then the FotM for farming changes to stun stun stun, die die die; or All The AoE, or some other strategy not yet thought of.

Which has nothing in particular to do with stealth, and everything to do with the lack of hard CC on some classes. So now they need to rebalance Crowd Control on everyone? The point being, there's always going to be class imbalances as long as each class is distinct from one another. Make stealth worthless in bypassing mobs, and then the FotM for farming changes to stun stun stun, die die die; or All The AoE, or some other strategy not yet thought of.

Having long lasting cc is a big edge. And all stealth classes have that. They also can reset a fight that goes bad by stealthing out. Theses are huge advantages. All I am asking for is some semblance of balance requiring they have to kill as many mobs or get less rewards.

This is the fastest speedrun of chapter 2 I could find. It's 6 minutes, 9 seconds. It was made by a Mara. Looking at the video, there is only 2 instances of force camo being used to bypass a group of mobs. The first use isn't even required to bypass the mobs, it was only used to allow for a straighter path.

There is plenty of reasons to grab your pitchforks and your torches, but stealthers saving 20 or 30 seconds or so on chapter 2 is not one of those reasons.

 

This is the fastest speedrun of chapter 2 I could find. It's 6 minutes, 9 seconds. It was made by a Mara. Looking at the video, there is only 2 instances of force camo being used to bypass a group of mobs. The first use isn't even required to bypass the mobs, it was only used to allow for a straighter path.

 

There is plenty of reasons to grab your pitchforks and your torches, but stealthers saving 20 or 30 seconds or so on chapter 2 is not one of those reasons.

Sure a few exceptional players can match them or get close. But a bad stealther can do the same. That guy was in teir 3 not sure his gear but likely better than 228s.....my shadow tank in 228 can match that or get close(and has)and I bet nearly anyone else's could as well.

Stealth is too big an edge. Is it really that big a deal to require the same level of effort?

FPs are a much bigger place where stealth matters for speed runs, and somehow we got by. I think the minor difference in speeds from stealth for Uprisings are just that, minor.

If the difference is minor then this shouldn't be an issue. They fight the same number of mobs they get the same reward. Effort and reward match then. If they want to shave that minor time off they can, it's their choice.

If the difference is minor then this shouldn't be an issue. They fight the same number of mobs they get the same reward. Effort and reward match then. If they want to shave that minor time off they can, it's their choice.

Because you actually have to implement the process. The dead simple way to do it is exactly what I said, you put whatever fraction of the intended CXP as kill rewards, averaged across each mob. I can think of an easy way to abuse this for profit, though, in the time it's taken me to type that sentence. The harder way is to put a secondary mission on; kill all (or most, anyway) of the mobs, get the reward fraction due to kills. And then everyone complains that hard-hitting AoE classes are the way to blow through, max reward, min effort. Replace the big, individually weak, pulls with smaller, individually tougher, pulls, and you make Hard CC important, and the game continues.

You can't solve this problem, you can just play whack-a-mole and shove the class balance problem around the table under the tablecloth. The grass will always be greener under some other classes feet.

I said before, stealth classes have always had a minor advantage in that they can ignore most trash mobs - that's been the game for 5 years now. It was way more of an advantage in flashpoints, where you have a lot more trash and a lot more travel distance, compared to a Uprising. 15-30 minutes off a 1 hour flashpoint is a much better deal than 2-5 minutes off a 15 minute Uprising.

Lest I be thought of as arguing for my own benefit, I don't grind CXP for the sake of CXP, I don't like how the Operative/Scoundrel class works, and I'm not all THAT thrilled by the Shadow/Assassin class - I'm just not that fond of melee. I can take or leave stealth, though I'll admit it's nice to be able to skip the odd mob from time to time, I also like the odd spot of cash. Each individual doesn't have a lot, but it adds up.

I just don't see the point of whacking this particular mole.

Sure a few exceptional players can match them or get close. But a bad stealther can do the same. That guy was in teir 3 not sure his gear but likely better than 228s.....my shadow tank in 228 can match that or get close(and has)and I bet nearly anyone else's could as well.

 

Stealth is too big an edge. Is it really that big a deal to require the same level of effort?

Can you link a bad stealther's video? As in, show actual proof? The difference in how many fights a stealthier goes through vs a non stealther on chapter 2 ends up being two trash pulls of 3 standard enemies each. That's it. That's the stealthers "Big Edge". It's nothing.

Of all the stuff to be worried about with SWTOR, this should be extremely low on the priority list. In a perfect game, every class would get the cxp at exactly the same rate. Quite frankly it's not worth the micro management it would take to make this happen.

If you take the popular (in this thread) sugjestion of nerfing the cxp based off of how many trash pulls you avoid, then guess what? Everybody takes a hit in CXP gains, because anyone grinding CXP in chapter 2 already avoids a lot of the encounters, regardless of being or not being a stealth class.

5.2 is giving a nerf to stealth speed. Between that, and between not being able to use rocket boasts in stealth, this clearly overblown issue has more than resolved itself. It was already a non-issue.

Can you link a bad stealther's video? As in, show actual proof?

Proof would only be needed if there was doubt it could be done, do you really doubt it could be? The fact is based on your next line clearly you don't. And why don't you? Because you know it could be and you know a bad stealther can do what someone else well practiced in that chapter could, and still the stealther would be as fast or faster.

You know that the difference is there, we all do. We all know the first time someone runs anything with no idea how to "game" the map the stealther can buzz through as fast or faster then someone who has the map memorized. That to hit the speed of a stealth class a non-stealth one needs to have run the map many times to find the optimal way to avoid as much as possible, if that is possible. Which on all maps is not.

Because you actually have to implement the process. The dead simple way to do it is exactly what I said, you put whatever fraction of the intended CXP as kill rewards, averaged across each mob. I can think of an easy way to abuse this for profit, though, in the time it's taken me to type that sentence. The harder way is to put a secondary mission on; kill all (or most, anyway) of the mobs, get the reward fraction due to kills. And then everyone complains that hard-hitting AoE classes are the way to blow through, max reward, min effort. Replace the big, individually weak, pulls with smaller, individually tougher, pulls, and you make Hard CC important, and the game continues.

 

You can't solve this problem, you can just play whack-a-mole and shove the class balance problem around the table under the tablecloth. The grass will always be greener under some other classes feet.

 

I said before, stealth classes have always had a minor advantage in that they can ignore most trash mobs - that's been the game for 5 years now. It was way more of an advantage in flashpoints, where you have a lot more trash and a lot more travel distance, compared to a Uprising. 15-30 minutes off a 1 hour flashpoint is a much better deal than 2-5 minutes off a 15 minute Uprising.

 

Lest I be thought of as arguing for my own benefit, I don't grind CXP for the sake of CXP, I don't like how the Operative/Scoundrel class works, and I'm not all THAT thrilled by the Shadow/Assassin class - I'm just not that fond of melee. I can take or leave stealth, though I'll admit it's nice to be able to skip the odd mob from time to time, I also like the odd spot of cash. Each individual doesn't have a lot, but it adds up.

 

I just don't see the point of whacking this particular mole.

Nearly every advanced class has a pretty good AoE build. Sure some are a bit better but not crazy better. You can't say the same about having stealth. And before you comment that there shouldn't be build disparity then, come on tank/heal builds lack of dps will sometimes be a huge issue but it's ok because when it is the person and change builds and get by, I do it all the time when it's simply a dps race I change my tank/healer to dps and go. I am saying nearly because I don't know vanguard/pt well enough to be sure they do. Yes sorc dps is low but that's a balance issue hopefully addressed at some point.

Just because something has always been unbalanced isn't really an arguement that it should remain so.

Proof would only be needed if there was doubt it could be done, do you really doubt it could be? The fact is based on your next line clearly you don't. And why don't you? Because you know it could be and you know a bad stealther can do what someone else well practiced in that chapter could, and still the stealther would be as fast or faster.

 

You know that the difference is there, we all do. We all know the first time someone runs anything with no idea how to "game" the map the stealther can buzz through as fast or faster then someone who has the map memorized. That to hit the speed of a stealth class a non-stealth one needs to have run the map many times to find the optimal way to avoid as much as possible, if that is possible. Which on all maps is not.

If there is no doubt, if it is so obvious, then it should be very easy to prove. I'm asking you for that proof, and you thus far haven't coughed it up.

For chapter 2, a stealthier can save a good 20-30 seconds, if they stealth at the right moments. That's it. For people who know the maps. If you don't know the maps, then stealthing would save you more time, sure. But we're talking about grinding here. People are gonna learn the maps pretty quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coury2cUMBw

This is a 6:02 speedrun. Arsenal Merc. No final cutscene or loading screen, but the merc fought two sets of 3 standard enemies she didn't need to fight. Instead of ************ about stealthers, ***** about how easy it is for a merc to face tank bosses better than actual tanks.

Show me a speedrun with a stealther that's significantly lower than that. You can't. I'm saying the difference is trivial at a 20-30 second advantage for a stealthier, if even that. What do you think this "Big Edge" is you keep going on about? Do you think it's a minute? Two minutes? You won't even solidly define what you're griping about.

Show me your proof. Show me a speedrun with a sin or a operative that's 5 minutes or lower for chapter 2. I'm guessing that you can't. I've proven that non stealthers can very quickly do chapter 2 as well. A 20-30 second advantage for stealthers is meaningless to gripe about. Getting people riled up about problems that don't exist are some of the reasons the real problems with SWTOR don't get addressed.

You also completely ignored the speed nerf stealthers are getting in 5.2. Even if this situation was real, it's already becoming a non issue.

You got angry at the assumption that stealth grinding chapters conveyed a huge advantage. And that's probably true for some chapters. But those chapters don't matter. When grinding over and over, only the fastest chapters matter. The "huge" advantage that got you so triggered on doesn't exist.

You got any links to this? So far I'm coming up with no other class than stealthier that can pull it off in that short amount of time? I can't find anyone I know in game that can currently pull it off nor does any searches pull it up for me.

 

Even the few Sentinel videos use their limited stealth to pull on 7min times or lower.

In case you missed it from my above post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coury2cUMBw

So are you arguing that a non-stealth class can do any chapter faster then a stealth one, not as fast but any faster? I don't see how. If a non-stealther can do it in 7 I am feeling good about a stealther doing it as fast or faster and with less work or effort.

 

Either way granting cxp based on percentage of mobs killed still evens things out. High stealth scan removes the benefit of stealth and hurts their ability to get opening back attacks, stealth stuns and the like. This method leaves them all those tools and allows them to decide to run for speed or max cxp, it gives options instead of taking them away.

In chapter 2, on my Merc I am able to skip almost every single mob that I can skip on my stealther. There are only maybe 2 mobs that I can skip with my stealther that I cannot skip with my non-stealther.

If there is no doubt, if it is so obvious, then it should be very easy to prove. I'm asking you for that proof, and you thus far haven't coughed it up.

 

For chapter 2, a stealthier can save a good 20-30 seconds, if they stealth at the right moments. That's it. For people who know the maps. If you don't know the maps, then stealthing would save you more time, sure. But we're talking about grinding here. People are gonna learn the maps pretty quick.

So you are demanding proof it can be done in one sentence than acknowledging it is so in the next. Sorry clearly it would be a waste of time to prove what you already know to be, what we all know to be.

I think your biggest fear is if they actually required you to clear the map using edge running and such would become less advantageous. It would hurt your method of beating the game is all. Because those who do as the video did would be in the same boat as the stealther, yes they could complete it quickly but they would also loose the cxp for doing it that way.

Your looking at this only from a grinding point of veiw. And there is validity in that but it also ignores the ease of learning and doing it the first couple times while learning the map, or even just doing it as part of more normal play styles.

Making the change to balance the game would do just that. It would be the same for the stealther as the non-stealther, balanced. Effort of one would more equal the effort of the others for the same reward. There is nothing bad about that.

In case you missed it from my above post.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coury2cUMBw

I didn't miss it. Stealth made a difference as one would think it does. I also noticed it was run on the empire side. A slight bit of an easier run because of how it's designed. Another issue iwth risk vs reward when you even compare an empire run vs republic.

Choosing extra talents to make their limited stealth better makes a difference in speed runs and the result is if we are going to base things on risk vs reward. Stealthers do not have the same risk and should not gain the same rewards if bw plans to change things based on the risk vs reward model.

Base it on the number of mobs killed (even if that doesn't mean all mobs) then the risk vs reward becomes a large part more even across the board of classes and gamers. Wouldn't matter what class you have, even if you had a better AOE than others, as you are still killing the same mobs. Skip those mobs, complete it faster sure, but miss out on some CXP.

If the goal is to base it on risk vs reward. Stealthers should be held accountable to the same standard.

In chapter 2, on my Merc I am able to skip almost every single mob that I can skip on my stealther. There are only maybe 2 mobs that I can skip with my stealther that I cannot skip with my non-stealther.

Empire does have it a bit easier by design vs republic from what I can tell even for non-stealthers. If you are republic there are at least 4 packs you cannot skip unless you can stealth not including the minibosses and final boss.

Here is what happened. This change is intended, it just wasn't supposed to happen until 5.2. That is the reason it was missed in the patch notes.

Odd that all latest nerfs "accidently" didnt make it into patch notes. Its like you are trying to hide something and take the community for fools.

I will work on getting it added to patch notes and I apologize for it being missed. It is our goal that CXP gains are based on time, difficulty, and group size, with that in mind I will let you know of any future changes which are planned.

Maybe let us know BEFORE a patch like several days BEFORE, not a week AFTER you tried to hide it by using the old accidental oversight excuse. You literally have no credibility left here.