Dual spec is a bit more QoL than field respec. It allows you to store a skill tree setting, and hotbars based on that spec. So a Powertech Tank could go DPS with the click of a button, do a recharge, and have all of his talents (from his last activation) waiting for him.

Help me understand your point here.

Is there anything that a "proper" Dual Spec would do for the SWTOR player other than save X seconds of time doing the respec by hand? In other words, would Dual Spec allow the player to do something he or she couldn't already do (albeit slowly)?

As compared to an AC swap, which would give the player the ability to do something that he or she cannot do at all.

I just had to comment, I had exactly the same experience. Although for me it happened at 31 when I unlocked Surgical Probe and Surgical Precision. Suddenly I felt like an actual healer. Up until that point I really didn't like the class at all, exacerbated by the fact that Kaliyo is fingernails on a blackboard to me.

 

I actually abandoned my operative at level 25 or something for the longest time, until I unlocked HK-51. He alone helped push me through to the point where I found I liked that class after all.

That is another concern as well. You may never know if you like the class if you can just change it willy-nilly and never really give it an honest shot.

Help me understand your point here.

 

Is there anything that a "proper" Dual Spec would do for the SWTOR player other than save X seconds of time doing the respec by hand? In other words, would Dual Spec allow the player to do something he or she couldn't already do (albeit slowly)?

 

As compared to an AC swap, which would give the player the ability to do something that he or she cannot do at all.

Correct, to a point. Dual spec would improve the speed an efficiency of changing from Tank, to DPS... or DPS to Healer. Or even PvE DPS to PvP DPS. AC swap allows you to change your Sith healer into a sith tank, your Ranged Sniper into a shortrange healer, your single wield Jedi guardian into a dual wield jedi sentinel. Dual spec allows you to modify the class you chose. AC swap allows you to skip the class you chose and do something else, like not having to level another class.

Correct, to a point. Dual spec would improve the speed an efficiency of changing from Tank, to DPS... or DPS to Healer. Or even PvE DPS to PvP DPS. AC swap allows you to change your Sith healer into a sith tank, your Ranged Sniper into a shortrange healer, your single wield Jedi guardian into a dual wield jedi sentinel. Dual spec allows you to modify the class you chose. AC swap allows you to skip the class you chose and do something else, like not having to level another class.

Groovy. I believe we are in accord.

I'm still a bit confused by this:

If we got Dual spec first, then Dual AC could feasibly follow imo.

I don't see why Dual AC could feasible follow if Dual Spec were added. It just seems they are completely different kettles of fish.

Adding Dual AC's would do a lot more than save a minute of game time.

Adding Dual AC's would do a lot more than save a minute of game time.

Does more than safe a few minutes. It saves DAYS of having to play another Advanced class character. Randomly swapping from Powertech to Merc just because you wanted to play the other class means you no longer have need of two characters. You can do it all with one character. By having one BH instead of two, you are cutting your play time in half, and the amount of CC you might spend gearing your Merc to match your PowerTech.

From a business perspective, especially one focused in an MMO, it makes no financial sense to allow someone to skip playing/gearing a 2nd character and costing them a potential sub/CM sale. There are so many other worthwhile ideas to add to the game, that MAKE them money, why would they invest time and resources on a feature that may LOSE them money in the long run?

Does more than safe a few minutes. It saves DAYS of having to play another Advanced class character. Randomly swapping from Powertech to Merc just because you wanted to play the other class means you no longer have need of two characters. You can do it all with one character. By having one BH instead of two, you are cutting your play time in half, and the amount of CC you might spend gearing your Merc to match your PowerTech.

 

From a business perspective, especially one focused in an MMO, it makes no financial sense to allow someone to skip playing/gearing a 2nd character and costing them a potential sub/CM sale. There are so many other worthwhile ideas to add to the game, that MAKE them money, why would they invest time and resources on a feature that may LOSE them money in the long run?

Appealing to lazy people.

Appealing to lazy people.

Not sure that fact was every really in jeopardy

Does more than safe a few minutes. It saves DAYS of having to play another Advanced class character. ... <snip> ... why would they invest time and resources on a feature that may LOSE them money in the long run?

Hmm. As I said before, I think we're in accord, but I'm not sure.

This earlier statement is still confusing me:

If we got Dual spec first, then Dual AC could feasibly follow imo.

It sounds like you're saying that Dual AC could feasibly follow Dual Spec because they're similar.

Therefore:

1. Since Dual AC is a bad thing, Dual Spec should be prohibited.

OR

2. Since Dual Spec is a QoL issue, Dual AC would also be a QoL issue.

Did you mean either of these two things, or something else entirely?

Does more than safe a few minutes. It saves DAYS of having to play another Advanced class character. Randomly swapping from Powertech to Merc just because you wanted to play the other class means you no longer have need of two characters. You can do it all with one character. By having one BH instead of two, you are cutting your play time in half, and the amount of CC you might spend gearing your Merc to match your PowerTech.

 

From a business perspective, especially one focused in an MMO, it makes no financial sense to allow someone to skip playing/gearing a 2nd character and costing them a potential sub/CM sale. There are so many other worthwhile ideas to add to the game, that MAKE them money, why would they invest time and resources on a feature that may LOSE them money in the long run?

becasue it won't? becasue the appeal of rolling alts in those game is in variations of story. becasue people already can gear more than one character - once. legacy gear. and now that we have a legacy offhand? the only things that you need to get separately are relics and earpieces. which is something you may already be doing even on a single character playing multiple specs.

becasue instead of having one character that sits there doing nothing, they may increase someone's playtime, by allowing them to play both characters twice as much (referring to existing players who have already rerolled) because it may bring back someone who didn't want to start from scratch, ended up not enjoying their original spec (or lost enjoyment in it due to some changes) and just left instead.

because subscription doesn't become especially attractive until endgame. leveling can be done on a f2p account juuuuust fine.

Actually I'd like to switch my Sith Jugg to a Marauder and my Zabrak Sentinel to a Guardian.

Then I wish I could change my (not caped) Imperial to sniper and well my Smuggler to a Scoundrel.

And to be honest there's no way I'm gonna redo the whole stories again.

So an Advanced Class change would be most welcome.

P.S.: impact on the game = I'd have to buy/grind all new equipment and pretty sure there won't be any impact on the PUGS I group with considering I do know these classes.

they may increase someone's playtime, by allowing them to play both characters twice as much (referring to existing players who have already rerolled)

Playing 1 character, twice as much means you will clear content twice as fast and spend 1/2 the amount of CMs you would have spent with TWO characters. So you are essentially cutting into potential profits.

because it may bring back someone who didn't want to start from scratch, ended up not enjoying their original spec (or lost enjoyment in it due to some changes) and just left instead.

You might get 5 people who come back for this. Anyone who thinks AC swapping will open some magic floodgates and bring people back is only fooling themself.

because subscription doesn't become especially attractive until endgame. leveling can be done on a f2p account juuuuust fine.

Thus keeping BW from making their SUB money by forcing you to need more than 2 character slots.

I get it. You are emotionally charged on this. But people need to see it from a business perspective. Everything else at this point is just some person's opinion trying to oppress an idea. From a financial standpoint, it makes no sense to allow your customers to willingly reduce their playtime or their spending in an MMO. Why do you think F2P restrictions are so harsh? To make subs look appealing.

Did you mean either of these two things, or something else entirely?

Since you seem to have trouble with this:

If they spent the time and resources to add Dual spec FIRST...

... then, much later down the line when people are no longer satisfied with dual spec, they could entertain the notion of Dual AC. But, until Dual Spec makes it to the game, Dual AC should not even be a consideration. Dual spec would require minor amounts of work to implement. Depending on the Class, Dual AC could cost more money, and require more resources to implement.

However, since I do not work for BW, and do not care for either feature since I usually only play one spec anyway, I think there are several other things that should come before DS or DAC are even mentioned on the wall of weird.

In terms of PvE I personally would have figured it out ahead of time. I can't see leveling to 55 with an AC and then, only then after all that time, finally realizing that I can't stand it. That doesn't make any sense to me. I played a gunslinger some time back. I finished Ord Mantell and realized I didn't too much care for it. Switched to Scoundrel. If I make it all the way through the story and all the levels to reach 55... I'm OK with the AC at that point.

I wasn't saying you'd necessarily hate playing an AC and carry on playing it through to 55 as a form of masochism. Rather, that on having the mechanics of both ACs available you'd have a clear preference to play one over the other.

I've made it through to 55 on all the core AC mechanics now, and while I haven't had any serious issues with any of them, I find some offer far more fun and enjoyment than others. It's more a sliding scale than an absolute

Ord Mantell as a starting world should play exactly the same for the gunslinger as it does the scoundrel. Maybe, if you had overlevelled you might hit level 10 before going through the last few quests but to choose your AC it still means going up to fleet to specialise and heading back.

I don't particularly care either way. If someone wants to change ACs I wouldn't mind. I just don't see the necessity, but I'm not opposed to anyone else's happiness if it's not hurting me.

I'm pretty much with you on this point. I just see the level of necessity at about the same as choosing a spec

Personally, I doubt I’d ever bother with changing my Advanced Class if they added the feature. I’ve played enough ACs to know what I like and what I don’t like. It might have been nice to have the option early on (i.e., when the game released). My first character was a Shadow and it took until he was in his mid-30s to realize how much I hated the class. I started a Sage instead and love the class so much, I have four of them now. The Shadow was long ago cast into Delete oblivion.

The joy of having an AC swap feature is that you'd never have to use it if you didn't want to. It's not compulsory. It's a QoL feature that offers a level of convenience to those who do not necessarily want to level through 100% of the content again.

I pretty much agree with those who suggest that it does not take until level 55 to decide whether you like your AC. If the rationale for changing AC is a hearty dislike of the AC you chose, I suppose they could set a maximum level to change AC (say, around 30ish) … to give a player time to try out an AC to see if it’s fun.

You really don't get the full AC experience until you are using it in level limited content, end game Heroic Mode Flashpoints would be the first real test for many. Not to mention the full specialisation doesn't become available till level 45 at the earliest and some ACs have abilities hidden away at quite high levels that can suddenly turn a so-so experience into a 'wow, I can't believe how much fun this is'.

I’m not sure I agree with the justifications offered by those who advocate letting 55s change their AC. That seems to dance close to making class choice almost irrelevant. In my opinion, there is something … off … about allowing a character to press a button and change its very essence. I would find characters frequently flip-flopping between ACs distasteful and unseemly. But my opinion is no reason to deny players the option. Plenty of people like chocolate, and I can’t stand the stuff.

Class cghoice is between one of eight, with their own story, companions and appearance options. Allowing for an AC swap has no affect on class choice what so ever.

A characters role is determined by the specialisation they choose, and if they are a subscriber and purchase Field Respecialisation they can change their core role anytime they want (outside of Warzones).

I frequently flip-flop between Tank and DPS on my Powertech, regularly queuing as both Tank and DPS only respeccing to what role is actually required.

The core of my argument has always been centered on the fact an AC is far more similar to a Specialisation than it is a Class.

But the reason I have a hard time arguing against AC changes is that I just don’t see how it affects me. The chief complaint seems to be a concern over someone changing their AC, but having no experience or understanding of playing that AC or using those skills. Such disadvantaged characters (arguably) jeopardize the success of the group play in which they engage. But I have a solution to that concern, which I shall set forth as a modest proposal to resolve the debate:

 

Allow anyone to change their AC at any time, at any level (subject to some fee charged in either CCs or credits, of course). But, anyone who changes their AC gets marked with a designator beside their character name so other players know they have changed their AC. The Group Finder would have an option to not group you with anyone so designated. The designator would need to be easily understood and sufficiently graphically distinct to not get lost in all the blue name/title/guild text we already see. My suggestion? We mark anyone who changes their AC with a scarlet “A” (for Advanced Class).

If you instigate an AC swap designator, you'd also have to put in a designator for those that have changed their specialisation. Why? Because all the arguments that currently exist against allowing an AC swap are just as pertinent to Specialisation swapping.

Otherwise, you get players like the ones who roll an alt, get to level 12, delete it, and then repeat the cycle until they have played every class a half dozen times. Our actions have consequences. Even the advanced trainers and confirmation window tell us that Allowing an AC swap removes those consequences and then (insert slippery slope argument here).

If the cost is high enough, that's consequence enough. I have changed a race on one of the characters I started pre-sub for the cost of ~ 800 cc. It took me days to decide. But now I have a character I believe in.

Not having an AC change might result in an abandoned character at a high level that otherwise might have made it through Chapter 3.

TBH, I have no problem with people going through multiple runs of the starting/capital planets - it is by far the most enjoyable part of the game where you can roll in dropped gear and simply have fun without worrying about anything but having a blast. For the past two days, I was basically unable to get past Watchtower/High Security on Belsavis with 2 characters between the distances that need to be travelled, mobs, incorrect pointers to the quest area right through the Imperial base (the sort that kills you, not the sort you are supposed to squash), inventory and crafting for a younger toon. Plus, I am having an unending debate of what to do next on Tishujen that includes a juggling of Guss Tuno's 1000 kills and AP level balance between convos and gifts, Rigg's re-equip at level 45 or 47, his class quest on Balmorra, 95 Planetary Commendations and the cost of shuttle between Belsavis and the Fleet. Makes me want to throw down the towel and just run Rhodion through Ord Mantell!

The main reason I object to the AC swap is because you are, in some cases, taking on an essentially different class. A Sith Sorc Healer is greatly different from a Sith Assassin tank. Being able to just click a button and switch ACs, when we can't even do that with talent trees, is kinda scary. It gives someone who plays a sorc dps to queue as a sith assassin just to skip the long queue and now you have a run with one healer and all DPS. The imbalance and abuse over all needs to be heavily regulated, and Dual spec added, long before this notion is even entertained.

Let's not confuse the term Class, Advanced Class, Specialisation and Role any more than we need to

When you are queuing for the standard Group Finder content the other members of the group do not care what your class or advanced class is (This may change if you are doing Nightmare Difficulty content or Ranked Team Warzones, but those are best left to guild activities).

What they do care about greatly is your Role (DPS, Heal, Tank)

A Sith Sorc Healer may be different to a Sith Assassin Tank, but there is also a huge difference between a Sith Sorc Healer to a Sith SOrc DPS, and a Sith Assassin Tank to a Sith Assassin DPS.

I'm pretty sure I can change the spec and therefore the role of the charcter using the field respect option anywhere other than a warzone or Operation (it's been awhile since I did some FPs, but I was commonly queuing for both and respeccing when the group was formed)

You already have people obviously queuing against role in the Tactical Flashpoints (Sith Assassins specced as DPS but queuing as Tanks) if their ability use is anything to go by, but it's less of an issue as they are pretty much a faceroll anyway.

I'm not even sure where your sudden championing of Dual Spec (a feature that is irrelevant with the addition of field respecialisation) before AC swap has come from

I'm not even sure where your sudden championing of Dual Spec (a feature that is irrelevant with the addition of field respecialisation) before AC swap has come from

Well, I tried to explain it from a logical standpoint. People ignored it. I tried to explain it from a business perspective from BW's PoV. People ignored it. So, I took your approach, and followed your other quotes in this very thread.

"There are so many OTHER features I would rather see added to the game before AC swapping ever becomes a feature." I agree with that. So, with that common ground, I agree that there are WAY more important features to champion and AC swapping really is at the bottom of the list.

So do I, but who am I to judge what's more important to others? Bio's call.

I'm not judging what is important to others, I am only expressing my personal view on the order in which I personally would like to see new content added. There are lots of features which should come WAY before AC swapping.

I'm not judging what is important to others, I am only expressing my personal view on the order in which I personally would like to see new content added. There are lots of features which should come WAY before AC swapping.

That's your business, what you prefer to see the devs focus on. But AC change is content. If it's in the game, it's content.

Well, I tried to explain it from a logical standpoint. People ignored it. I tried to explain it from a business perspective from BW's PoV. People ignored it. So, I took your approach, and followed your other quotes in this very thread.

 

"There are so many OTHER features I would rather see added to the game before AC swapping ever becomes a feature." I agree with that. So, with that common ground, I agree that there are WAY more important features to champion and AC swapping really is at the bottom of the list.

Ignoring and disagreeing are two completely different things.

So, you are pro-AC swap now, there's just a difference of opinion on the priority of its implementation.

Ignoring and disagreeing are two completely different things.

 

So, you are pro-AC swap now, there's just a difference of opinion on the priority of its implementation.

I am not pro-AC swap. I am pro-implement other things first and we'll talk about AC swap. Just like you.

That's your business, what you prefer to see the devs focus on. But AC change is content. If it's in the game, it's content.

I never said it wasn't content. I said it was unimportant content to people like me and the wookie there. We both feel there are TONS of better features and content which should be implemented before they waste time and resources adding AC Swapping. Just my opinion of course. I have no influence with BW.

I am not pro-AC swap. I am pro-implement other things first and we'll talk about AC swap. Just like you.

Not like me at all. I don't see the harm in AC swap. I've argued for it even though I probably wouldn't use the most likely implementation (One shot AC swap consumable purchased from CM). It would enhance the game on a couple of my characters if they ever implemented it as a legacy unlock feature (less likely). I won't get bent out of shape if its ETA is a few years down the road. If I need to talk about the merits of a different feature I'll discuss them in a separate thread.