Clarification edit: if i went to each of my characters and did a /played on them and totaled the number, more than 60% of that total would come from 3 of those 15 characters.

So you spent almost twice as much time playing this game... because of alts. If only I had theorized that sooner

Pffft...that's crazy talk! Did you ever see a Jedi fall to the darkside in the movi...err...

I will admit, this made me laugh

So you spent almost twice as much time playing this game... because of alts. If only I had theorized that sooner

My sub time didn't change, those many alts had nothing to do with ac respecs, and my alt playing time is closer to 1/3rd than half of my played time (not close to doubling my total played time). You were referring to one guy switching his main and doubling his played/sub time. I'm telling you that rolling an alt (OR TWELVE ALTS) to change a spec does NOT double a player's played time. In games like this, leveling just for the sake of leveling represents a fraction of most players played time - which is why endgame is important and games that don't have it fizzle fast.

I don't know about others, but after 8 characters, i don't roll alts becasue there's no AC change. I roll them because I want to see other aspects of the story, which includes playing opposite gender, experimenting with alignments etc. its the main reason why I can't bring myself to give up on a character, even if I don't really enjoy the playstyle. re rolling them is just not the same.

just thought I'd put it out there. there are many and varied reasons why not everyone can just delete/abandon characters and start over - its catch 22. old character - not so fun. new character - its just not the same, miss the old character.

there are also many and varied reasons to roll alts and those reasons? will NOT go away if AC change is made available.

Pffft...that's crazy talk! Did you ever see a Jedi fall to the darkside in the movi...err...

Faction change would be nicer but much harder to implement (much less likely) - why I'm not touching that thread. i think most of the blockage here is philosophical.

My sub time didn't change, those many alts had nothing to do with ac respecs, and my alt playing time is closer to 1/3rd than half of my played time (not close to doubling my total played time). You were referring to one guy switching his main and doubling his played/sub time. I'm telling you that rolling an alt (OR TWELVE ALTS) to change a spec does NOT double a player's played time. In games like this, leveling just for the sake of leveling represents a fraction of most players played time - which is why endgame is important and games that don't have it fizzle fast.

Even as Free to play... even just leveling alts for fun to use as crafting mules... even just farming everything yourself and never spending a dime in the CM, you are still spending time in the game. The more characters played, the more time spent. True or false?

So, since the answer is true, this means anyone who IS subbed, who does use the CM, and who plays alts as MORE than crafting mules, they are spending at least 25% more time in the game than they would if they played a single character. This means they are contributing to a lengthy sub, and purchases to supply more than one character with Legacy Perks.

I understand what you are saying. I really do. But I crunch numbers for fun, and even taking the Number out of the equation, I could say:

You spend X number of hours over Y number of characters, resulting in Z amount of playtime. X * Y = Z If you are a sub, and use the CM, as many do, this means Reducing Y would automatically X which in turn would reduce Z. In a F2P, the less Z there is, the less likely they are to implement Idea B. They will stick with Idea A which maximizes Z and makes them happy.

Faction change would be nicer but much harder to implement (much less likely) - why I'm not touching that thread. i think most of the blockage here is philosophical.

Oh I agree, and Eric made it very clear to almost all of us that it won't be happening in our lifetime.

Oh I agree, and Eric made it very clear to almost all of us that it won't be happening in our lifetime.

I think the actual quote was:

Hey folks,

 

This is a good question! We have been asked this a few times at some of our Cantina Tours as well but I wanted to make sure we had the answer here in the forums for folks to be able to find it.

 

I am remiss to ever say the word never, but I can say that it is very, very unlikely that we would ever implement any type of Faction change. As some others have alluded to in this thread, a very many things are tied into your characters Faction, and the choices they have made throughout their story. Due to that, having your faction change has a lot of impact on many things, not only from a story sense, but also technically involving your character.

 

Because of that, it is very unlikely we will ever implement Faction change.

 

-eric

I sure wish people would stop paraphrasing. It makes their opinion look less like a fact and more like hyperbole.

To me it feels like a class. It feels like a new unique class to be more exact.

I'm a bit of an alt-a-holic. I have 17 toons at 55. I mainly play BH/Troopers. A PyroMerc does not feel the same as a PyroPT. Yes, they are the "same tree", yes they both have BH abilities. But they are not the "same class".

It will be interesting to see in the long term whether the AC feature is introduced over the lifespan of SWTOR. I find it slightly amusing that there is such a rabid defence of the status quo when the feature wouldn't impact on ability balance.

 

I seem to recall voicing one of the few hard based cons of AC swapping. That it would take away from development resources.

 

I'll add another cause I try to see both sides of an argument and focus on the practical issues.

If AC swapping was allowed as you level, depending at which point you chose to swap a new player could potentially face a bill for new abilities that they couldn't cover. Leaving them with a lengthy period of grinding for credits with an underpowered character.

This is more to what you wrote in green for my comment:

Yes, I would have it be so unappealing that AC respec is a last ditch effort to keep someone from deleting a toon.

If you didn't like your AC in the first place, so much so that you paid for a 1 time transition ... do you think you are ever going to want to go back?

Or, is it your desire to have AC respec "on the fly"?

Four times you are told and twice you have to manually click an acknowledgement that your choice is permanent.

I genuinely have no sympathy, whatsoever, for someone that grinds a toon to 55, knowing full well at 25 that they didn't like the play-style of that AC.

And yes, they knew. You know mechanically what that role feels like around level 20-22.

I think the actual quote was:

 

I sure wish people would stop paraphrasing. It makes their opinion look less like a fact and more like hyperbole.

I'm well aware of what his actual quote was, you've spammed it plenty. You're the reason I said "very clear to almost all of us" - I know you're confused over the likelihood it would ever happen.

I'm well aware of what his actual quote was, you've spammed it plenty. You're the reason I said "very clear to almost all of us" - I know you're confused over the likelihood it would ever happen.

No, no confusion there. I am more confused why people would use phrases like "No" or "Not in our lifetime" when that is clearly not what was said. I just want people to get facts... not fan fiction.

Even as Free to play... even just leveling alts for fun to use as crafting mules... even just farming everything yourself and never spending a dime in the CM, you are still spending time in the game. The more characters played, the more time spent. True or false?

 

So, since the answer is true, this means anyone who IS subbed, who does use the CM, and who plays alts as MORE than crafting mules, they are spending at least 25% more time in the game than they would if they played a single character. This means they are contributing to a lengthy sub, and purchases to supply more than one character with Legacy Perks.

 

I understand what you are saying. I really do. But I crunch numbers for fun, and even taking the Number out of the equation, I could say:

 

You spend X number of hours over Y number of characters, resulting in Z amount of playtime. X * Y = Z If you are a sub, and use the CM, as many do, this means Reducing Y would automatically X which in turn would reduce Z. In a F2P, the less Z there is, the less likely they are to implement Idea B. They will stick with Idea A which maximizes Z and makes them happy.

Except if i wasn't leveling alts i would have been doing something else in this game (more than likely). I sit down to play swtor, not do something specific in swtor. Most of my cm $ go to my mains, not my throwaways...

Except if i wasn't leveling alts i would have been doing something else in this game (more than likely). I sit down to play swtor, not do something specific in swtor. Most of my cm $ go to my mains, not my throwaways...

Wow, you are really just bound and determined to use every excuse in the book. Sadly, we already know you have 18 character, you paid a sub to level them all, and you continue to pay a sub just to have access to them all. Even if you only log into each one for 5 minutes a day, that's 75 minute stretched over 15 alts. Let's say you only access two alts a day at 5 mins each. 10 mins a day goes to your alts. That is 3650 minutes a year That is 2.5 days of play time per year just for 2 alts. So for all 15 alts, that means you are doing this 17.75 days of play time per year. If you only spent 5 mins per day per alt.

If you have more than one character, and spend more than one minute outside of that character, you are spending MORE TIME in the game. Not sure how much more simple to make it. Encouraging alts for most normal players means they would spend more time playing the game. I personally have a main, and an alt. I've played them equal amounts of time. I could have jipped them out of 50% of my CM purchases and my time spent by playing one toon only.

So by the "how does it impact you logic":

Every character should instantly be level 55. How does that impact you?

Every character should be freely given the Highest PvP/PvE gear. How does that impact you?

Every character should be given no longer obtainable items. How does that impact you?

Every character should automatically be highest rank in PvP. How does that impact you?

Every character should automatically have all their achievements unlocked for display. How does that impact you?

I could keep going but I think you see the logical fallacy of that argument.

It's a video game, short of griefing, nothing any of us do *really* impacts the others. You are just another set of pixels showing up with the correct gear for the content. There are plenty of players out there in top end gear that are completely oblivious to proper play of their character.

That doesn't negate the fact that none of the above are good ideas.

So by the "how does it impact you logic":

 

Every character should instantly be level 55. How does that impact you?

Every character should be freely given the Highest PvP/PvE gear. How does that impact you?

Every character should be given no longer obtainable items. How does that impact you?

Every character should automatically be highest rank in PvP. How does that impact you?

Every character should automatically have all their achievements unlocked for display. How does that impact you?

 

I could keep going but I think you see the logical fallacy of that argument.

You're right. None of those are good ideas, and neither is AC swapping. All of those things cause people to take less vestment in their character thus taking less interest in the game. Cheat codes make the game boring after the first time or two that you use them. Unless you love to cheat, and then that game is for you. Changing an AC means you are being given permission to change your path at will after being force to make a choice.

Faction change is a controlled change... but not implemented

Dual spec is a change... but not implemented

Defector's quest is a change... but not implemented

So why should we give concession to some to change their character's path, and not others? Dual spec is far less impacting, and is still not in the game. If we got Dual spec first, then Dual AC could feasibly follow imo.

You're right. None of those are good ideas, and neither is AC swapping. All of those things cause people to take less vestment in their character thus taking less interest in the game. Cheat codes make the game boring after the first time or two that you use them. Unless you love to cheat, and then that game is for you. Changing an AC means you are being given permission to change your path at will after being force to make a choice.

 

Faction change is a controlled change... but not implemented

Dual spec is a change... but not implemented

Defector's quest is a change... but not implemented

 

So why should we give concession to some to change their character's path, and not others? Dual spec is far less impacting, and is still not in the game. If we got Dual spec first, then Dual AC could feasibly follow imo.

I just kind of left it hanging out there that it is a bad idea. You are exactly right, AC respec will not create any renewed bond to a character, nor will it ensure that people remain subbed longer. Furthermore it will not hook long gone players into coming back for the long haul. Every game pitches a gimmick to get players back and they work to varying degrees for a month or so, then people remember why they left int he first place and go back to wherever their grass was most recently greener.

As an aside, and in no way related to the quote above: I certainly do not believe that Bioware/EA should pander to the F2P population. The "whales" of the CM, are not F2Pers, the whales are subscribers. So any argument to be made about how many F2Pers want this is irrelevant because they are not the people keeping this game in the black.

If we got Dual spec first, then Dual AC could feasibly follow imo.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by Dual Spec, this doesn't necessarily follow.

We have a sort of "dual spec" right now. It just requires you to purchase "Field Respec", hit the "Reset" button, click your talents, drag the abilities to the hotbar, and (optionally) put on your other set of gear.

The only thing an in-game dual spec would do is to automate that activity. It's more of a quality of life issue, really.

This is more to what you wrote in green for my comment:

 

Yes, I would have it be so unappealing that AC respec is a last ditch effort to keep someone from deleting a toon.

 

If you didn't like your AC in the first place, so much so that you paid for a 1 time transition ... do you think you are ever going to want to go back?

 

Or, is it your desire to have AC respec "on the fly"?

 

Four times you are told and twice you have to manually click an acknowledgement that your choice is permanent.

 

I genuinely have no sympathy, whatsoever, for someone that grinds a toon to 55, knowing full well at 25 that they didn't like the play-style of that AC.

 

And yes, they knew. You know mechanically what that role feels like around level 20-22.

I love how its all pitch black, or blindingly white for you, with no inbetweens.

and no, you do NOT know at 22 how the ac feels like, not even remotely. I used to hate my operative when she was that level. she felt awful at healing, its like I couldn't do anything at all. operative healing is now my favorite in a game, and I didn't know that I would actualy like it, until I got my keystone talent. (back then it was at 40, now its at 45)

moreover. some of us create characters and /gasp get attached to them. those characters have meaning, they have stories, back stories, they are unique to us. rerolling simply doesn't work. so between insistence from people that "it gets better later" and the fact that you invested so much time into that character already? rerolling is just not the same.

but we often do anyways. roll a new character, create a new backstory, while the old character is sitting there doing jack squat in game, becasue we don't like to actualy play them.

furthermore. either one time or at will? what in betweens cannot exist? like at all? like, I don't know, the way guild renames, legacy renames, character renames work right now, with a long cooldown? allowing you to change your mind again, without trivializing the switch? oh no, no such thing as something in between, its either nothing, or slippery slope of epic proportions that has no relation, its just you making up the most outrageous claims you can think of and claiming its the same thing as making a small choice, that you are not even forced to make in order to keep progressing in game (oh yes. you can finish your story, you can get all the companions, you can hit 55 without actualy picking out your advance class) - semi temporary instead of entirely permanent.

and btw? no spec feels the same. each spec plays differently. some more then others (like when we switch trinity roles) and yet. we can do that. at will, mind you.

I'm a bit of an alt-a-holic. I have 17 toons at 55. I mainly play BH/Troopers. A PyroMerc does not feel the same as a PyroPT. Yes, they are the "same tree", yes they both have BH abilities. But they are not the "same class".

Understand...I do not expect others to view it the way I do, nor would I campaign against folks getting AC change if it was something the majority wanted...In the end I want what is best for the game, despite what might be my selfish desires.

The choice means something to me and I would like to see it remain that way....but that is just me. I do not portend this as something that will cause mass revolt. Frankly I am not sure how the playerbase would react.

My guess would be most folks would not be happy about it, but that is after all just a guess. I could very well be wrong.

Besides....I might try it out and find out its not as bad as I thought. I am open to trying new things and looking at things differently. I can only speak to how I feel at present.

I used to hate my operative when she was that level. she felt awful at healing, its like I couldn't do anything at all. operative healing is now my favorite in a game, and I didn't know that I would actualy like it, until I got my keystone talent. (back then it was at 40, now its at 45)

I just had to comment, I had exactly the same experience. Although for me it happened at 31 when I unlocked Surgical Probe and Surgical Precision. Suddenly I felt like an actual healer. Up until that point I really didn't like the class at all, exacerbated by the fact that Kaliyo is fingernails on a blackboard to me.

I actually abandoned my operative at level 25 or something for the longest time, until I unlocked HK-51. He alone helped push me through to the point where I found I liked that class after all.

I just kind of left it hanging out there that it is a bad idea. You are exactly right, AC respec will not create any renewed bond to a character, nor will it ensure that people remain subbed longer. Furthermore it will not hook long gone players into coming back for the long haul. Every game pitches a gimmick to get players back and they work to varying degrees for a month or so, then people remember why they left int he first place and go back to wherever their grass was most recently greener.

 

As an aside, and in no way related to the quote above: I certainly do not believe that Bioware/EA should pander to the F2P population. The "whales" of the CM, are not F2Pers, the whales are subscribers. So any argument to be made about how many F2Pers want this is irrelevant because they are not the people keeping this game in the black.

/Agreed

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by Dual Spec, this doesn't necessarily follow.

 

We have a sort of "dual spec" right now. It just requires you to purchase "Field Respec", hit the "Reset" button, click your talents, drag the abilities to the hotbar, and (optionally) put on your other set of gear.

 

The only thing an in-game dual spec would do is to automate that activity. It's more of a quality of life issue, really.

Dual spec is a bit more QoL than field respec. It allows you to store a skill tree setting, and hotbars based on that spec. So a Powertech Tank could go DPS with the click of a button, do a recharge, and have all of his talents (from his last activation) waiting for him. Much the same way dual spec works in World of Warcraft and some other MMOs. Advanced class swapping is like going PowerTech to Merc because you feel the need to do better DPS, or want to respec for PvP. Essentially, Dual spec allows you to easily change your skill tree, where AC swap allows you to easily skip having to level another Bounty Hunter.

Not,

Believe it or not recent posts are LIES, Advanced class respec will prolong the game of SWTOR for all of us.

/Sign this

Not,

 

Believe it or not recent posts are LIES, Advanced class respec will prolong the game of SWTOR for all of us.

 

/Sign this

Got tired of letting folks think for themselves and decided to take matters into your own hands again?