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Need to buff Force Lightning damage for Madness

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Need to buff Force Lightning damage for Madness

cflems's Avatar


cflems
07.17.2020 , 11:45 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by MagicTerror View Post
Exactly, there are certain abilities that are the "meat" of the dps class and certain ones that are little more than fluff. If we were talking about lightning sorcs one ability I have in mind for a fluff ability is affliction, or maybe lightning flash. If we were talking about something like deception sins a fluff ability I can think of would be voltaic slash. For Madness Sorcs it happens to be FLighning.

It's not where I'd go looking for a dps buff because it would likely cause more change than it's worth to a rotation that's already fine as it is; as I said I don't want the spec becoming something where you can ignore your hard hitting dots, DF, lightning strike and Leech in favor of spamming your fluffy proc ability. I'd like force storm to proc some things like force lightning does for even more fun aoe fluff, but if the guy just wants a dmg buff to force lightning then I'll need to see something that shows it's an even worse contributor to parsing than similar "fluff" abilities in other classes.
The word you're looking for is filler. For lightning the filler is lightning bolt. Generally buffing filler damage is a decent way to make a PVE-only damage increase, which is fine by me. In pve madness just needs to compete with the likes of virulence and IO. To make this happen based on the current stats you could honestly just nerf virulence into line. The problem isn't that madness is underperforming, in fact it's doing the best it has in a long while. It's that virulence is the 4th highest parsing spec in the game as a ranged class. So long as it can compete with the rest of its category (ranged dot), madness will be viable.

The real problem that madness has and none of these other specs do is that its survivability is absolutely garbage. Firstly, every time you use static barrier or resurgence it takes a GCD off from your damage, and that adds up when you refresh static barrier on CD (every 15 sec, or once every rotational cycle). Additionally, madness takes so much burst damage that I'm hesitant to even bring it into PVE for fear of needing to be babysat by the healer. PVP is out of the question altogether. I don't know how bioware let this spec get unplayably squishy, but it needs to be addressed. Madness needs a flat 30% damage reduction increase (not armor, actual DR), or something equivalent, to be viable in PVP, and not constantly have to self-heal (i.e. not do damage) in PVE.

MagicTerror's Avatar


MagicTerror
07.17.2020 , 05:42 PM | #12
Fluff, filler, I really don't care a bit, but if devs take this too seriously and buff FLightning too much it will indeed become something people use to "fluff" their numbers, rather than as a filler.

But compared to other classes I thought madness was a good survivability class. I found leech + Un-Pres is good burst healing for the few times in serious PvE where you're going to have literally no choice but to take a burst of damage (Maybe your complaint is once again around the low hot-for-dot you get from attacking, just like OPs complaint about the low dmg filler attack?) As for other heal/protection abilities that take away a gcd, isn't a dot spec supposed to balance that out by letting you keep doing at least some dmg while you focus on surviving? I just don't see much sense to these arguments for buffing some of the marginal parts of Madness, the thing that I do think could be useful to at least some of the sorc specs (including madness) is to increase the amount of damage their static shield ability takes, it feels like its cap is starting to fall prey to the same scaling issues that cause a problem for other classes.

I guess I'm just getting a little tired and confused with the complaints around classes needing buffs or nerfs. Apparently the class is "good", for itself?, but not when compared to another dot spec? then it's trash that needs a buff or its competitor a nerf? The question we should be asking is "is it viable?" If it is, then why are we having this conversation? So maybe your favorite class won't ever be first on the leaderboard for dps, so what? Play what you want the best you can, then if in a rare moment you sandbag your team, pick a better class to master and alt to, rather than ask the devs to undergo a massive undertaking of making sure every class is dealing or taking just the right amount of damage relative to its 23 other disciplines.

cflems's Avatar


cflems
07.19.2020 , 05:19 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by MagicTerror View Post
Fluff, filler, I really don't care a bit, but if devs take this too seriously and buff FLightning too much it will indeed become something people use to "fluff" their numbers, rather than as a filler.

But compared to other classes I thought madness was a good survivability class. I found leech + Un-Pres is good burst healing for the few times in serious PvE where you're going to have literally no choice but to take a burst of damage (Maybe your complaint is once again around the low hot-for-dot you get from attacking, just like OPs complaint about the low dmg filler attack?) As for other heal/protection abilities that take away a gcd, isn't a dot spec supposed to balance that out by letting you keep doing at least some dmg while you focus on surviving? I just don't see much sense to these arguments for buffing some of the marginal parts of Madness, the thing that I do think could be useful to at least some of the sorc specs (including madness) is to increase the amount of damage their static shield ability takes, it feels like its cap is starting to fall prey to the same scaling issues that cause a problem for other classes.

I guess I'm just getting a little tired and confused with the complaints around classes needing buffs or nerfs. Apparently the class is "good", for itself?, but not when compared to another dot spec? then it's trash that needs a buff or its competitor a nerf? The question we should be asking is "is it viable?" If it is, then why are we having this conversation? So maybe your favorite class won't ever be first on the leaderboard for dps, so what? Play what you want the best you can, then if in a rare moment you sandbag your team, pick a better class to master and alt to, rather than ask the devs to undergo a massive undertaking of making sure every class is dealing or taking just the right amount of damage relative to its 23 other disciplines.
I'll admit I phrased this poorly. There's 2 things going on:

Madness is not a good survivability class, in fact it likely has the worst survivability of any spec in the game. This is a very predictable consequence of it having the lowest damage reduction in the game (15%). Unnatural pres and force leech are nice heals, but they don't save it. This makes madness completely and utterly unplayable in PVP. It is also a hinderance in a lot of higher level raids where the DPS do take unavoidable raidwide damage, much more so than its damage is.

Now, the problem with madness damage-wise isn't its actual damage, it's that virulence is literally a better alternative in every way. Better ST damage, better AOE damage (suppressive fire >>>), same dot spread radius, spammable dot spread, longer lasting dots, same or better mobility, better energy management, far better survivability. There is literally no reason to take a madness sorc in a high level raid except maybe to flex how good you are at avoiding mechanics because getting hit once will chunk you for 50% or more. And you do make a point about the heals from your dots-- they are so weak I often forget they exist.

Equeliber's Avatar


Equeliber
07.20.2020 , 01:20 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by cflems View Post
I'll admit I phrased this poorly. There's 2 things going on:

Madness is not a good survivability class, in fact it likely has the worst survivability of any spec in the game. This is a very predictable consequence of it having the lowest damage reduction in the game (15%). Unnatural pres and force leech are nice heals, but they don't save it. This makes madness completely and utterly unplayable in PVP. It is also a hinderance in a lot of higher level raids where
Well, unplayable is a bit of an overstatement. I've been playing regs on Balance Sage for a while after 6.0, because it's always been one of my most favorite specs to play PvP with, and I've been doing fine-ish. If I played the same way but in Telekinetics, I would have gotten even better results, I am well aware of that.

Balance can't really 1v1 anyone, had an encounter with a Hatred Sin recently and still barely managed to get my solo kill... Probably just because the guy didn't seem to have shroud on cloak utility taken. Most other specs - no chance. Any burst spec just blows me up as they have never ending 50-60k crits that I can only somewhat mitigate for 6 seconds with Blockout utility taken... There is no outhealing burst on Balance sage. DoT specs are somewhat easier to fight but most of the time they are just tankier than me or have better self heals than me or have DoT cleanses while I don't.

AoE-wise, it's alright, I guess? I had games where it was just Voidstar damage spam at the door with no progress forward and I was number one in the group by damage in the end (Slow Mercy tactical is pretty legit). Something like 12.5k DPS the last time I had such a match, pretty good, I guess? But again, I definitely felt like as Telekinetics I could have done even more.

And it's only a "good" game if I am not getting focused down. I can kite 1-2 melees for a while but it's really frustrating and if they are stealthers, I can't really damage them (when I play Balance, I often ask myself a question - is DoT cleansing on <1 min cd really a fair thing? Especially when they have it on vanish as well...). But if there is no healer around, Balance's squishiness really shows. If someone even sneezes at you, you need to run. You can heal up later and get back into the fight but there is no outhealing incoming damage while fighting like it's done on Lightning or on merc...

So, anyway, playable? Yeah, definitely. Is it a good experience? Can be. Can be the opposite. Does it need improvements? Definitely. I agree that the main thing Balance needs is a raw DR increase. These days there is no spec that is below 25% DR besides Serenity and Balance. Most are above 30% most of the time. And having such a low DR as Balance just kills you whenever you actually take damage. The self heals it has are not enough to cover such low passive defenses. I don't want a self heal buff, seems like finding a good middle ground with self heals is pretty hard.

I don't know what kind of DR increase it needs exactly, not sure I would agree with the crazy DR stacking that Lightning got. But bumping it to at least 30% consistent DR is a must. I like the passive that increases your armor when Rejuvenate heals you. It's just too weak, 4% or so. Bump it up to 10% raw DR or something like that. Or add a DR buff from dealing DoT damage like on Watchman. Or just a raw DR increase like on Vigilance. I don't really care, as long as it's available in some shape or form.

But it seems like Bioware is really scared of buffing defenses on Serenity and Balance due to their self heals. Or they think that they work fine enough? Hell, I'll gladly take another nerf to our self heals if that's what I need to give up to get some DR. But Bioware devs, if you happen to read this thread, the self heals on both Serenity and Balance are just way too weak to cover the lack of passive defenses and any relevant DCDs. Low DR isn't even the only problem, besides kiting and 8sec bubble, your only actual mitigation defensive is Blockout utility. I am 99% sure that even if you buff Balance's passive DR to be at around 30% without taking anything away, it will still be in the bottom half of DPS specs in PvP.

truevalon's Avatar


truevalon
07.22.2020 , 02:12 AM | #15
Madness selfhealing used to be 25% Ever since it was nerfed to 10% the spec has consistently had the worst surviability in the game. I'd even say below pre 6.0 PT.
We'll know what we're made of, when up against all odds...

EmperorRus's Avatar


EmperorRus
07.22.2020 , 06:14 AM | #16
Easy fixes

One: Dealing periodical damage increases damage reduction by 5% for 3 seconds
Two: Allows Cloud Mind to be activated while stunned, activating Cloud Mind grants "Make them pay" returning 100% of direct single target damage back to attacker, 2 seconds long.
Three: Creeping Terror and Affliction healing you for 20% of the damahe they deal
Four: Using Phase Walk grants "Just heal to full", increasing all healing received by 20% for 6 seconds

truevalon's Avatar


truevalon
07.24.2020 , 04:38 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by EmperorRus View Post
Easy fixes

One: Dealing periodical damage increases damage reduction by 5% for 3 seconds
Two: Allows Cloud Mind to be activated while stunned, activating Cloud Mind grants "Make them pay" returning 100% of direct single target damage back to attacker, 2 seconds long.
Three: Creeping Terror and Affliction healing you for 20% of the damahe they deal
Four: Using Phase Walk grants "Just heal to full", increasing all healing received by 20% for 6 seconds
Allowing Force Lightning to be channeled while moving would be of great aid too.
We'll know what we're made of, when up against all odds...

Ainiv's Avatar


Ainiv
07.26.2020 , 07:12 AM | #18
Been playing a lot of Madness Sorc for the past week or so. Currently in the phase of min-maxing my set with the right mods, enhancements and amplifiers.
With that out of the way; I wouldn't mind seeing the base damage penalty of Lightning Barrage being lifted but I think the tactical Tempest of Rho already addresses this. It basically gives a chance for Creeping Terror to tick again while Force Lightning is being channeled. I can easily notice it in lower tier content and it's honestly so satisfying to look at enemy healthbar just depleting super fast.

I think both Lightning and Madness could use slight buffs to their damage on different areas. For Madness I have these proposals:
-Small Affliction damage buff and a chance for it to spread to a nearby enemy that is not soft-CC'd. Additional plaguemaster flavor for Sorc!
-Ability upgrade to Lightning Strike, could see this for lvl 80. Perhaps make it so that it deals increased damage based on the amount of DoTs in the target. It's about time we got some new ability upgrades BW!
-Execute phase damage bonus to Force Leech in the form of a new debuff that Force Leech causes on enemies under 30% health, this debuff increases the severity of Damage-over-Time effects or FL gets an increased damage value. I was thinking of a hungering or a "hollowing out" type flavor for this.
-Stolen life as "overshields" on top of health when at max HP. Madness lacks the durability of Lightning, this could address that imbalance. Basically a passive that decreases the cooldown of Force Barrier so it has higher uptime and the absorption value it has is increased by the stolen life. Nothing is ever enough for a Sith!

And for general quality of life:
I would so like that there'd be alternative ways to stack Wrath. Especially on channeling Force Storm and/or using Seethe out of combat (Marauders can spec into something like this with a Utility) perhaps.
Up the values of the lifesteal on the abilities slightly, or make it so that Empty Body has an effect on them as well.
Also updated particle effects to the two smaller DoTs, Lightning Strike and Shock. Lightning also gets bunch of cool character effects when buffs are present, Madness deserves that too.

Thank you for attending my TedTalk!

Edit: Fleshed out my thoughts more on the ability section.