I agree. That's the thing that people seem to get confused about when it comes to offhealing in pvp. Yes, it can be very effective in certain situations (such as 2v1s), but mostly it's quite an inefficient way to spend your time. It takes a lot of resources, and you cannot effectively dps while you're doing it. Sure, ops can throw out hots, but that's not going to do anything for someone actually getting focused, and now one of your dps isn't doing their job.

 

Frankly, I think offguarding is a much more powerful tool than offhealing, but it's really only practical for dps sins to use.

if you pull an arena with heals but no tanks, then the off tank in any AC is, imo, broken.

When there are kolto probes on a DPS op. it is referred to as HoT - healing over time.

Hit them with DoT to weaken its effect, and prevent them from stealthing without spending for it.

Most specs have at least 1 DoT attack.

Ops play chess.

Aye good ops can be lethal but so can good players on any class.

Bad ops are like 6 - 10 hit kills.

Its just people who know the class.

We should also nerf sin tanks for being too good at being tanks.

bangs head against wall*

 

trixxie... do you know why "nerf ops" is a swtor meme? its because bioware refuses to nerf their dcds. instead they nerf dps. why do they do this and what effect does it have on pvp? they do this because the deciding factor in pve is dps, but the deciding factor in pvp is dcds. this is why "nerf ops" is a comic meme in swtor, the devs hae 0 clue how or even why.

 

what this guy is suggesting is give ops viable dps and nerf their cds. this is exactly what needs to happen because pve operatives are suffering right now because of low dps and pvp operatives are on top of the food chain because of their dcds. bioware is just too afraid to nerf dcds because thats coming to close to the sun of not holding pvers hands.

"Nerf ops" is a meme because in basically every single class balance patch from 1.2 until like, probably 4.0, DPS operatives were nerfed substantially in some way. It's a meme because mediocre players that don't bother trying to understand the class call for nerfs without having the experience of playing one. It became a meme to say "nerf ops" to every problem in PVP because that's what Bioware did. There's a yellow post from early on in the game that says something like, "We've nerfed operatives because groups of stunlocking operatives were ruining the experience for other players".

"Nerf ops" is a meme because in basically every single class balance patch from 1.2 until like, probably 4.0, DPS operatives were nerfed substantially in some way. It's a meme because mediocre players that don't bother trying to understand the class call for nerfs without having the experience of playing one. It became a meme to say "nerf ops" to every problem in PVP because that's what Bioware did. There's a yellow post from early on in the game that says something like, "We've nerfed operatives because groups of stunlocking operatives were ruining the experience for other players".

The nerf.... comes usually from the PVP community and especially the ranked community because in arenas having so much self heals can make you survive way longer than any other class in this game...

Mercs have the same problem too.

Regarding OPS< they can be annoying, but leave them as they are. I don't think this combat team can do any proper changes to them anyway and considering that SWTOR is a single player game with multiplayer elements designed for mostly casuals, I think there is really zero point in this classes vs classes argument...

Your class was designed to fight mobs in PVE, period...

The simple fact that no-one denies they are the absolute undisputed kings of 1v1 is proof enough that they need to be nerfed. Maybe nerfed isn't the right word, levelled out?

True 1v1 isn't a game format beyond 1v1 encounters in WZ and duels outside of WZ, but its still a very relevant part of play. Anyone who has ever guarded a node (and enjoys doing so) cares about 1v1 class balance. The fact is that Scoundrels / Operatives are so good at 1v1 that they can reliably go 1v2, 1v3 etc on a common basis. You can say all day long that 3 DPS who can't kill an Operative are bad players until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that no other class can do this against those 3 bad players. You will die eventually. (Please don't tell me about that occasion you won a 1v3 with your Sentinel / Jugg / sin whatever, the fact is Operatives do it all the time).

Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if Shadows were suddenly given 3 self heals, 2x30m abilities, increased armour rating, lowered their force speed to 10s cooldown and gave them immunity while force speed is active? On top of keeping their utility self heal that heals in stealth? That is basically what Scondrels / Operatives are now.

There is a reason good Operatives don't need to stealth out to win 1v1 duels, where as sins / Shadows do - again, please don't tell me about that one time you won a duel with as shadow and didn't stealth) fact is shadows stealth out of fights far more than Scoundrels / Operatives do.

I'm all for altering their abilities being the way forward. Remove Kolto probes, increase cooldown times of their DCDs, something like this. It would still be possible to retain their top tier 1v1 status, but they wouldn't be unbeatable anymore.

The simple fact that no-one denies they are the absolute undisputed kings of 1v1 is proof enough that they need to be nerfed. Maybe nerfed isn't the right word, levelled out?

 

True 1v1 isn't a game format beyond 1v1 encounters in WZ and duels outside of WZ, but its still a very relevant part of play. Anyone who has ever guarded a node (and enjoys doing so) cares about 1v1 class balance. The fact is that Scoundrels / Operatives are so good at 1v1 that they can reliably go 1v2, 1v3 etc on a common basis. You can say all day long that 3 DPS who can't kill an Operative are bad players until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that no other class can do this against those 3 bad players. You will die eventually. (Please don't tell me about that occasion you won a 1v3 with your Sentinel / Jugg / sin whatever, the fact is Operatives do it all the time).

 

Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if Shadows were suddenly given 3 self heals, 2x30m abilities, increased armour rating, lowered their force speed to 10s cooldown and gave them immunity while force speed is active? On top of keeping their utility self heal that heals in stealth? That is basically what Scondrels / Operatives are now.

 

There is a reason good Operatives don't need to stealth out to win 1v1 duels, where as sins / Shadows do - again, please don't tell me about that one time you won a duel with as shadow and didn't stealth) fact is shadows stealth out of fights far more than Scoundrels / Operatives do.

 

I'm all for altering their abilities being the way forward. Remove Kolto probes, increase cooldown times of their DCDs, something like this. It would still be possible to retain their top tier 1v1 status, but they wouldn't be unbeatable anymore.

Classes aren't designed for PVP or 1v1 combat... so not gonna happen. Opers are fine as they are.

lethality is an aoe spec, it is dilerately designed to be better at crowd dps than all burst specs and quasy burst spec.

Of all specs in the game, Lethality is the one with the strongest commitment to one single target. Switching targets, or just recovering from a well timed stun, LOS or shield/reflect will take them 4-5 GCDs. If you just stand there and let one of the highest parsing single target dps do their full PVE rotation, then the problem might not be OP'd operatives.

What

Classes aren't designed for PVP or 1v1 combat... so not gonna happen. Opers are fine as they are.

Fine if you like to main one and know that you have a significant advantage going to any node, not fine if you are anyone else. Weak retort. Plenty of other classes have been nerfed because they were too strong in 1v1, 1v2 . 1v3...

Of all specs in the game, Lethality is the one with the strongest commitment to one single target. Switching targets, or just recovering from a well timed stun, LOS or shield/reflect will take them 4-5 GCDs. If you just stand there and let one of the highest parsing single target dps do their full PVE rotation, then the problem might not be OP'd operatives.

 

What

shows, is that Lethality (Concealment as well) can be played as a mediocre healer that does enough fluff damage to annoy the other team's healer. With a tank that's an automatic win vs. a team that is like "We lost the first round, the scoundrel did good damage and as much healing as our dedicated healer... let's go for the dps jugg,"

^Bang on assessment.

In that arena, they did on a few occasions send some fire my way, but I didn't need to do much before they gave up and switched targets. Some cc here and breaking line of sight there was all it would take. They should have just sat on me the whole time because the hots can't keep up to sustained pressure. Also, I don't think they identified how much of a threat I was in this one. They had the biggest hand in their own demise because they gave me the breathing room I needed to keep the hots and dots rolling.

As far as the ruffian mechanics go, the ramp-up time for ruffian is brutal. If you can't unload brutal shots during your optimal window then 40%-ish of the entire spec's damage evaporates. The whole spec relies on that window to have any real killing power. The spec really needs the extra healing to live long enough to execute a rotation. The healing is strong, but nerfing the healing would leave ruffian in a bad place. At least as long as the ramp up time is as bad as it is.

lethality operative is in a bad place period because in any situation but a 1v1 they get rooted and destroyed.

their aoe is fluff, but vs 4+ targets it still racks up about 7k. a single leth ops aoe fluff can easily be healed by any healer spec in this game without effort. as for their burst? its not trash, no one said their burst was bad, but vs good players that ramp upp time is just not going to happen. youll get one or two off every minute, but thats not enough to cut it in solos or 4s, which is why lethality operative is not taken seriously in endgame pvp. its a meme, a fun meme, but a meme.

Of all specs in the game, Lethality is the one with the strongest commitment to one single target.

as for this.. just no. no.. No. DoT specs ARE not single target. They are capable of single target but they are deliberatly designed to have shortcoming in single target combat over their burst counterparts. I cant believe I had to say such a basic design point that has existed in MMOs since burst and DoT were seperate concepts. and no, lethality operative in SWTOR is not a special case, they have aoe DoT that are exceptionly strong vs 4+ targets and have an abyssally slow rampup time for solid burst on single target.

lethality operative is in a bad place period because in any situation but a 1v1 they get rooted and destroyed.

 

their aoe is fluff, but vs 4+ targets it still racks up about 7k. a single leth ops aoe fluff can easily be healed by any healer spec in this game without effort. as for their burst? its not trash, no one said their burst was bad, but vs good players that ramp upp time is just not going to happen. youll get one or two off every minute, but thats not enough to cut it in solos or 4s, which is why lethality operative is not taken seriously in endgame pvp. its a meme, a fun meme, but a meme.

 

 

 

as for this.. just no. no.. No. DoT specs ARE not single target. They are capable of single target but they are deliberatly designed to have shortcoming in single target combat over their burst counterparts. I cant believe I had to say such a basic design point that has existed in MMOs since burst and DoT were seperate concepts. and no, lethality operative in SWTOR is not a special case, they have aoe DoT that are exceptionly strong vs 4+ targets and have an abyssally slow rampup time for solid burst on single target.

I know this is the pvp board, but dot specs are ridiculously good at single target sustained dmg (mostly a pve situation).

I think in general offhealing is somewhat powerful in solo ranked, or just in general if utilized right. However I dont think removing Kolto Probes is the right way to go. The problem with probes from Ops/Scoundrels lies in the fact that they are practically spammable with not much punishment aside from consuming a global cooldown.

Althought Kolto Probes are practically vital for operative surviability I wouldn't mind seeing a change to how Kolto Probes from a concealment/lethality operative affects its team mates. Top of my head I can think of two changes I find kinda reasonable:

1. Increase energy cost for Kolto Probes when placed on team mates while specced as a dps. This would force ppl to offheal tactfully rather than spam Kolto Probes around as needed. You still retain the low energy cost when placed on yourself.

2. Decrease the stack limit of Kolto Probes to 1 that a dps specced operative can place on its teammates. While still being able to grant 2 stacks to himself. Basically a nerf to offhealing, especially in scenarios with multiple operatives on the same team.

But then again, a fair part of the problem lies in peoples inability to CC operatives properly in matches. Aswell as neglecting how powerful it is to simply rootkill an operative to death.

but not in pvp, because pvp dps windows are small between dcds, stun and LOS

That doesn't change that Lethality is one of the highest parsing (i.e. PVE) dps specs for single targets. Even post nerf still playing in the same league as IO and Engineering. (Again: single target, AOE isn't even close.)

In PVP the lack of lol roll and the delayed, easily interruptable burst make it very vulnerable against competent players, and that was my point: if someone fears the OP'd dps of Lethality, maybe they shouldn't act like a target dummy.

Against a competent team, playing hots'n'dots is a crutch, so you can at least be of some use. But in this case you wish you'd specced concealment or medicine. Against players that act like PVE bosses (just do their thing regardless of whom they're facing) Leth is a lot of fun, even more so with a pet healer.

but not in pvp, because pvp dps windows are small between dcds, stun and LOS

I find IO to be much more effective against classes that have strong resistance to white damage. I assume it's the same for other dots. but I cannot solo a half decent healer (IO's burst isn't bad it just takes setup and you have to sell out on resources, and you cannot swap targets without resetting the whole rotation).

also, 2 of the 3 IO dots tick extremely quickly and even moreso with all the alacrity you need to stack. this make dot spread even trickier, since you need to hit a targeted that's already dotted up with an expolsive that either has a timed delay or a hard cast...all while the target is in range of others to spread onto. my point is that spread might be easier in leathality or madness, but it's peripheral in pvp (although I do find it easier in arenas, ironically, b/c of the number of melee and the fact that they're always grouped on just one target).

I think in general offhealing is somewhat powerful in solo ranked, or just in general if utilized right. However I dont think removing Kolto Probes is the right way to go. The problem with probes from Ops/Scoundrels lies in the fact that they are practically spammable with not much punishment aside from consuming a global cooldown.

 

Althought Kolto Probes are practically vital for operative surviability I wouldn't mind seeing a change to how Kolto Probes from a concealment/lethality operative affects its team mates. Top of my head I can think of two changes I find kinda reasonable:

 

1. Increase energy cost for Kolto Probes when placed on team mates while specced as a dps. This would force ppl to offheal tactfully rather than spam Kolto Probes around as needed. You still retain the low energy cost when placed on yourself.

 

2. Decrease the stack limit of Kolto Probes to 1 that a dps specced operative can place on its teammates. While still being able to grant 2 stacks to himself. Basically a nerf to offhealing, especially in scenarios with multiple operatives on the same team.

 

But then again, a fair part of the problem lies in peoples inability to CC operatives properly in matches. Aswell as neglecting how powerful it is to simply rootkill an operative to death.

easiest solution in the world for their off-healing is to make the heals less effective for other players. problem solved. they're still going to be the best 1v1 class, so you need to focus them down early rather than let them hang around till the end, but all ops specs melt under focus and stun.

easiest solution in the world for their off-healing is to make the heals less effective for other players.

Maybe make the first kolto probe do 50% healing and the second 150%

If you constantly keep 2 probes on your teammates, you're a healer playing in the wrong spec.

The simple fact that no-one denies they are the absolute undisputed kings of 1v1 is proof enough that they need to be nerfed. Maybe nerfed isn't the right word, levelled out?

 

True 1v1 isn't a game format beyond 1v1 encounters in WZ and duels outside of WZ, but its still a very relevant part of play. Anyone who has ever guarded a node (and enjoys doing so) cares about 1v1 class balance. The fact is that Scoundrels / Operatives are so good at 1v1 that they can reliably go 1v2, 1v3 etc on a common basis. You can say all day long that 3 DPS who can't kill an Operative are bad players until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that no other class can do this against those 3 bad players. You will die eventually. (Please don't tell me about that occasion you won a 1v3 with your Sentinel / Jugg / sin whatever, the fact is Operatives do it all the time).

 

Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if Shadows were suddenly given 3 self heals, 2x30m abilities, increased armour rating, lowered their force speed to 10s cooldown and gave them immunity while force speed is active? On top of keeping their utility self heal that heals in stealth? That is basically what Scondrels / Operatives are now.

 

There is a reason good Operatives don't need to stealth out to win 1v1 duels, where as sins / Shadows do - again, please don't tell me about that one time you won a duel with as shadow and didn't stealth) fact is shadows stealth out of fights far more than Scoundrels / Operatives do.

 

I'm all for altering their abilities being the way forward. Remove Kolto probes, increase cooldown times of their DCDs, something like this. It would still be possible to retain their top tier 1v1 status, but they wouldn't be unbeatable anymore.

It should be easy for any decent player to survive against a single operative for long enough for help to come. It's a stealth class. It's their job. A sin is much more menacing and will kill you a lot faster if the skill is equal between the sin and the operative.

On the flipside. If you are trying to cap a node and an operative is defending... CC THE OPERATIVE. You know they're tanky. Why engage? Stun out of LoS and cap. It's not hard. Yes, most randoms don't have the mental capacity to understand this, but, if you see Derpy the Jugg going for the node cap in the middle of the fight.. be a good boy and use your big stun button on the operative. Uh oh! He broke it!? Use your mezz. There you go! You got the node!

It's not hard.

Yes, most randoms don't have the mental capacity to understand this, but, if you see Derpy the Jugg going for the node cap in the middle of the fight.. be a good boy and use your big stun button on the operative. Uh oh! He broke it!? Use your mezz. There you go! You got the node!

Nice to see you back on the forums Arvengis, posts like this are always good for a laugh. Thanks.

The simple fact that no-one denies they are the absolute undisputed kings of 1v1 is proof enough that they need to be nerfed. Maybe nerfed isn't the right word, levelled out?

 

True 1v1 isn't a game format beyond 1v1 encounters in WZ and duels outside of WZ, but its still a very relevant part of play. Anyone who has ever guarded a node (and enjoys doing so) cares about 1v1 class balance. The fact is that Scoundrels / Operatives are so good at 1v1 that they can reliably go 1v2, 1v3 etc on a common basis. You can say all day long that 3 DPS who can't kill an Operative are bad players until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that no other class can do this against those 3 bad players. You will die eventually. (Please don't tell me about that occasion you won a 1v3 with your Sentinel / Jugg / sin whatever, the fact is Operatives do it all the time).

 

Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if Shadows were suddenly given 3 self heals, 2x30m abilities, increased armour rating, lowered their force speed to 10s cooldown and gave them immunity while force speed is active? On top of keeping their utility self heal that heals in stealth? That is basically what Scondrels / Operatives are now.

 

There is a reason good Operatives don't need to stealth out to win 1v1 duels, where as sins / Shadows do - again, please don't tell me about that one time you won a duel with as shadow and didn't stealth) fact is shadows stealth out of fights far more than Scoundrels / Operatives do.

 

I'm all for altering their abilities being the way forward. Remove Kolto probes, increase cooldown times of their DCDs, something like this. It would still be possible to retain their top tier 1v1 status, but they wouldn't be unbeatable anymore.

yea as a shadow my vanish is my priority button, I hug it all the times. And then after using it I need to wait 45s-1min for a combat to wear off. Plus I need to find safe spot to use meditation heal.

Let the scoundrels stay the same but give shadows regen and single heal from sages. You took everything from us, our dps our teleport.

So i had an arena match on my merc healer with 3 dps vs 4 dps, one of them fully decked out 258 operative.

 

After the first round they ended up doing two thirds of my healing. some 600k v 400k. We lost, i died first i think, no im not great, but im also not a trash can.

 

That is a lot of *********** healing on a DPS.... y is kolto probes not an exclusive operative healer ability? Insta cast, low energy cost. At the very least a DPS should not be able to cast kolto probes on group members unless they r specced heals.

 

Operative can simply do too much, basically acting as a healer and a very very slippery DPS as well.

Totally agree. Take away kolto probes from operatives. Let them eat 1 Electro Net per minute(1 ENPM) without probes and while we're at it, take away their kolto infusion too. Way too OP.

i had a great discussion with one of my friends, mac, about operative dps and how the whole class needs a redesign, i couldnt agree more

concealment has always been this weird gimmicky off healer dps hybrid. the only reason they are good is because they are good at running away. having a melee class that is designed around run away as a defensive is completely absurd (one of the reasons i was all for them removing phase walk from sin dps and adding 60% dr on phase speed). give dps operatives dcds that actually matter, remove roll immunity and nerf their healing by 50%. give them dcds that allow them to stay in the back line and be an actual melee class without having to run away every time they get hit and heal up. removing roll immunity and their healing would make those secondary to the spec and making dps be the primary focus of the class, as it should be.

A redesign would be interesting, but I can't see them doing it with all these tac items and new set bonuses coming out.

For PVE, scoundrels and operative dps are fine. I even take scrapper into hm/nim