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Account-Wide Ignore


BRKMSN's Avatar


BRKMSN
02.07.2019 , 07:31 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by jedimasterjac View Post
As someone who has been harassed, both on here and in World of Warcraft, and outside of video games, I think it's pretty terrible to insinuate that these stories are made-up or the result of some sort of mental illness.

And, at the end of the day: So what? Would an account-wide ignore be a bad feature even if harassment didn't go that far? What harm is done by enabling this?
You tell me. Since you have been harassed (people's definition may vary) on more than one game and in real life, would you like it if the people that know you as your character named "bob" noticed a character named "bill" playing that reminded them of "bob," so they entered the name "bob" on their ignore list and noticed "bill" also disappeared from the player list, thus confirming their suspicion. Now, while they can't chat with you directly or queue for PvE stuff with you (since you are ignoring their legacy), they can still mess with you through many different ways from custom emotes to abilities. They can follow your whereabouts by adding your name(s) to their friend list and stalk away if that is their thing.

Now, I've seen people claim that being hit by a snowball is harassment. So, not all harassment players feel they experience is the same. But when you are dealing with an extreme case from a persistent person, legacy ignore opens up the door for more problems than it solves because it takes anonymity out of your hands and allows creeps to stalk you easily.
We have a zero tolerance policy for intolerance of any kind.

MorseGod's Avatar


MorseGod
02.07.2019 , 10:00 AM | #32
Man, I'd give my left nut to just have a global ignore list so that when I ignore someone on one toon, that character is ignored across my entire account. If I could ignore entire accounts, too, that would just be heavenly.

Best suggestion I've seen in ages.
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decicco
02.07.2019 , 12:24 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
You tell me. Since you have been harassed (people's definition may vary) on more than one game and in real life, would you like it if the people that know you as your character named "bob" noticed a character named "bill" playing that reminded them of "bob," so they entered the name "bob" on their ignore list and noticed "bill" also disappeared from the player list, thus confirming their suspicion. Now, while they can't chat with you directly or queue for PvE stuff with you (since you are ignoring their legacy), they can still mess with you through many different ways from custom emotes to abilities. They can follow your whereabouts by adding your name(s) to their friend list and stalk away if that is their thing.

Now, I've seen people claim that being hit by a snowball is harassment. So, not all harassment players feel they experience is the same. But when you are dealing with an extreme case from a persistent person, legacy ignore opens up the door for more problems than it solves because it takes anonymity out of your hands and allows creeps to stalk you easily.
By my understanding, if a character is ignored, then that character cannot added the "ignorer" to their friend's lists. And if not, this should be the case.

In the context of what I have proposed, the character and their account/legacy that is ignored cannot add any of the "ignorer" to their friend's lists.

If the ignored follows the "ignorer" to harass them, they need to be reported and in detail. Harassment and Stalking is unacceptable in the real world and it is unacceptable in the virtual world.

Snowballs as harassment takes a specific context, but i can see how it happens. This I will admit is an extreme case that cannot have a blanket rule applied to.
Captain DeCicco Ehne
Founding Council Member of Disciples of Sith

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BRKMSN
02.07.2019 , 07:32 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by decicco View Post
By my understanding, if a character is ignored, then that character cannot added the "ignorer" to their friend's lists. And if not, this should be the case.
You can friend someone that ignores you.

Quote: Originally Posted by decicco View Post

If the ignored follows the "ignorer" to harass them, they need to be reported and in detail. Harassment and Stalking is unacceptable in the real world and it is unacceptable in the virtual world.
Likewise, if a person that is ignored switches alts to continue to harass you, they should be reported and disciplined as necessary. It's still the same person regardless of whether you ignored one or two of his alts or his whole legacy.
We have a zero tolerance policy for intolerance of any kind.

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decicco
02.11.2019 , 11:14 AM | #35
Just to update and see what we've been able to determine thus far.

Each toon created (if this is not the case) needs a unique identifier that is forever tied to it, it's legacy, and it's account even after deletion in order to make the global ignore work.

One such possibility to also implement a global ignore is the ability to import/export lists to players on the same account.

It has been argued that harassers may be able to exploit this through an extremely convoluted route by attempting to add someone as a friend when that someone has ignored them. While I don't follow this method as described and have difficulty seeing the feasibility in this argument, harassers in this context or another need to be reported, and is therefore not a symptom of the proposed global ban.

The GENERAL consensus of those who have posted to this forum would like to see some sort of global ignore to cut down on credit spammers and those who, quite frankly, degrade our experience of the game.
Captain DeCicco Ehne
Founding Council Member of Disciples of Sith

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BRKMSN
02.11.2019 , 07:53 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by decicco View Post
The GENERAL consensus of those who have posted to this forum would like to see some sort of global ignore to cut down on credit spammers and those who, quite frankly, degrade our experience of the game.
Actually, the suggestion box forum topics tend to only get clicked on by people interested in the particular topic. So, a majority of Suggestion Box readers ignored this thread or had no opinion to add. The general consensus is that there are about 7 or 8 posters that would definitely like to be able to ignore legacies, a couple that don't like the idea and one or two more that are concerned about how it would work. That's hardly grounds for the Devs to break away from their current agenda to redo something that has been a good compromise for over 7 years now.

As for (credit) spam-bots, they aren't from 1 legacy, so legacy ignore would have no effect on that "problem." A possible solution to that, that I mentioned earlier would be for ignore lists to automatically be updated when a character from the list is banned. There is no reason for a banned character to stay on a list. Spam bots have a lifespan of about 1-5 days, so it really wouldn't be too hard to manually delete them for now since their names are always gibberish (or gibberishadad).

Finally, one point that was not discussed at all is how would an "ignore legacy" overhaul effect overall game performance? Obviously there's a limit to the current system for a reason, now you are proposing a potential increased burden in the average ignore list size. Another point is when you are discussing legacy, you have to keep in mind the two factions limit what can currently be done in regard to legacy. That's another challenge that hasn't been addressed in this game. But it's not like a Pub toon can harass an Imp toon. But since legacy is cross-faction and ignore and friend lists are not, that's another problem.

Bonus thought ...

How soon after legacy ignore would be implemented that the more needy and dependent players start begging for legacy friending as well?
We have a zero tolerance policy for intolerance of any kind.

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decicco
02.11.2019 , 11:15 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
Actually, the suggestion box forum topics tend to only get clicked on by people interested in the particular topic. So, a majority of Suggestion Box readers ignored this thread or had no opinion to add. The general consensus is that there are about 7 or 8 posters that would definitely like to be able to ignore legacies, a couple that don't like the idea and one or two more that are concerned about how it would work. That's hardly grounds for the Devs to break away from their current agenda to redo something that has been a good compromise for over 7 years now.

As for (credit) spam-bots, they aren't from 1 legacy, so legacy ignore would have no effect on that "problem." A possible solution to that, that I mentioned earlier would be for ignore lists to automatically be updated when a character from the list is banned. There is no reason for a banned character to stay on a list. Spam bots have a lifespan of about 1-5 days, so it really wouldn't be too hard to manually delete them for now since their names are always gibberish (or gibberishadad).

Finally, one point that was not discussed at all is how would an "ignore legacy" overhaul effect overall game performance? Obviously there's a limit to the current system for a reason, now you are proposing a potential increased burden in the average ignore list size. Another point is when you are discussing legacy, you have to keep in mind the two factions limit what can currently be done in regard to legacy. That's another challenge that hasn't been addressed in this game. But it's not like a Pub toon can harass an Imp toon. But since legacy is cross-faction and ignore and friend lists are not, that's another problem.

Bonus thought ...

How soon after legacy ignore would be implemented that the more needy and dependent players start begging for legacy friending as well?
I was going to reply to this, but honestly, you infuriate me. You straw-man my posts, you assume that this is more intensive on the system to have a legacy flagged than to have many toons flagged, you have ignored my ideas of unique identifiers that continually identify known accounts, and quite frankly, you offer nothing to contribute to this conversation, neither support nor constructive criticism.

Looking through your posts on other peoples forums just within the past two weeks, you do nothing but troll and degrade people. You have made your voice heard.

Now, if you would like to discuss why ALL points made won't work and offer how to improve them or offer an alternative to this, that's fine. But do not side slip because there is a screen between you and everyone else.
Captain DeCicco Ehne
Founding Council Member of Disciples of Sith

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BRKMSN
02.12.2019 , 07:45 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by decicco View Post
I was going to reply to this, but honestly, you infuriate me. You straw-man my posts, you assume that this is more intensive on the system to have a legacy flagged than to have many toons flagged, you have ignored my ideas of unique identifiers that continually identify known accounts, and quite frankly, you offer nothing to contribute to this conversation, neither support nor constructive criticism.

Looking through your posts on other peoples forums just within the past two weeks, you do nothing but troll and degrade people. You have made your voice heard.

Now, if you would like to discuss why ALL points made won't work and offer how to improve them or offer an alternative to this, that's fine. But do not side slip because there is a screen between you and everyone else.
Disagreeing is not trolling. I have offered many ideas in this thread to improve the current ignore (list importing, friend and ignore lists being legacy wide, automatic removal of banned characters from ignore lists, etc... ) But somehow, you claim I'm trolling simply because I don't support the idea of ignoring another's legacy. I have stated several times that player anonymity is important to me. A few people in this thread have outright dismissed that as relevant because it isn't important to them. You downplayed it yourself by suggesting the exploit was "convoluted" and didn't make sense to you. From your own words, it seems you still don't understand just how easy it would be to exploit (it doesn't require adding someone as a friend (although that would still be possible since ignoring someone doesn't prevent them from friending you)).

But if you are only here to get agreeable opinions, then I agree that problematic players should be reported and disciplined if their actions warrant it. The problem is not the ignore list itself.
We have a zero tolerance policy for intolerance of any kind.

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decicco
02.12.2019 , 11:37 AM | #39
After reviewing the posts, it appears I am in error, as I have mixed up posts mentally. For those mix-ups, I do apologize.

That said

Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
Because there exists the possibility to exploit such a feature to undermine player anonymity. I'm 100% in favor of having your friend and ignore lists saved to your legacy (or having an import / export feature). I'm 100% against someone being able to ignore another player's legacy. Stalkers could easily exploit an "ignore legacy" feature to identify a character's player identity.
We are in agreement for a mechanism in-game to import/export ignore lists. We are in disagreement of a stalker exploiting this feature.

Let's say with the current build, the stalker (toon A) is ignored on one toon (toon B). On the /who list, A can still look up B. With the build I propose, because I have not addressed this issue, if A's legacy was ignored by B's legacy, a toon on A would still be able to look up B. If the ignore is on account, A would still be able to look up B. This is something not introduced by my proposal, but already existing.

Now let's flip it. Let's say A is ignoring B in order to verify identity, which is something we have covered.

Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
There's no reason it would have to show the person's alts or even their legacy name. It could just say (character name) of the character you have blocked and have a check mark next to it if you'd also like to block their legacy.
All the stalker would see is that the toon they are ignoring is ignored and an indicator that the legacy(or account) has been ignored, but nothing to show what that legacy is.

What has not been covered is if a stalker ignores a toon to find an identity, that there is the possibility that a message will come up saying "This person's legacy/account has been ignored." I say we cover this base by allowing the stalker to ignore as many toons as possible with their window showing that the toon has been ignored, an indicator showing that the legacy (or account) has been ignored. With this, there will be no indication that the two toons he has ignored are from the same legacy.

Now is there a chance I missed a possible exploit with this? Yes, there's a possibility. In these instances, they still need to be reported for harassing and go ahead and give me an example of how stalkers can still exploit this, which is something we are in agreement on.

Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
It's kind of funny reading a counter argument claiming a harasser that would go through the trouble to exploit a legacy ignore feature to discover a character's identity would be rare enough to not consider. In reality, that's exactly what would fit into the definition of harassment and stalking. Obviously, if they are going to switch alts just to keep bothering someone rather than playing the game, then they won't mind exploiting the legacy ignore feature.
Now let's consider switching the alt. Under the current build, if the stalker's first toon (A1) is ignored by someone's first toon (B1), then the stalker can switch to another toon (A2) as this toon has not been ignored by B1 and continue stalker and harassing. B1 can continue to ignore A2, A3, A4, A5, and so on, but A knows who B is. B switches to a B2 toon which, while it does not solve the issue, does for a time prevent A from harassing B, but as soon as the identity of B is discovered, the cycle begins again. In which case, and I cannot stress this enough, report him.

Under the build which I propose, while there is the possibility that A would try to whisper B and get the notification that they are being ignored, it is unlikely that A's legacy/account is the only legacy/account that is being ignored by B, in which case, yes there is the consequence of him harassing a new legacy. Once again, report him as there are now two people (or more) affected by this one player. Is this worse or better depends on perspective. It is worse in that multiple people are affected. It is better because there is now mounting evidence against the stalker/harasser. It was wrong to begin with with one person, and EA should respond against the harasser with the one person. Because of this, if two people are affected, a fire needs to be lit under EA to respond. Bombard EA with these reports and if they do not respond, I surmise that no more money should be thrown at them for providing little to no service on this game under the "Games as a Service Model." This should be put more in depth in another thread. With these thoughts, Xina proposes that without the indicator just showing that a legacy has been ignored but no way of knowing the other characters in the legacy, that those who have been stalked and those who have been harassed will know all of the stalker's or harasser's toons.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xina_LA View Post
I really want this. I don't see why it's a problem for player privacy.

Just add them to the ignore list as "[Character]'s Legacy" using the name of whatever character you targeted when you invoked the Legacy-wide ignore.

Blocks everyone in the Legacy, doesn't tell you their names. Voila!

Also, IMHO, I think the whole "character name privacy" thing is a joke. I've played other MMOs where it's easy to see all the toons owned by one player and it was never a problem... except for trolls and spammers, who hated that feature, because they couldn't get away with harassment. After all, if you were afraid a troll would target you across characters, it wouldn't be an issue after you Legacy-blocked them. Protecting people from trolls is more important (to me) than letting people play sneaky social games.
While just having an indicator to show the legacy has been ignored, prevents the ignored from knowing toons, this is difficult to argue against. In this instance where is the harasser going to hide? There are pros and cons to maintaining or disallowing anonymity with this legacy/account ignore, far more pros for either to maintain the current build we have now.

Going back to this:

Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
Because there exists the possibility to exploit such a feature to undermine player anonymity. I'm 100% in favor of having your friend and ignore lists saved to your legacy (or having an import / export feature). I'm 100% against someone being able to ignore another player's legacy. Stalkers could easily exploit an "ignore legacy" feature to identify a character's player identity.
My response was this:

Quote: Originally Posted by decicco View Post
Having an import/export of ignore lists sounds good.

I'm a little myth'd about your second part though, could you perhaps clarify?

If I were to ignore someone else's legacy, and let's say that they were to stalk me, how? In-Game or real life and how? Your explanation would be insightful.
A later post of yours, while not a direct response to me, it was a direct response to this:

Quote: Originally Posted by jedimasterjac View Post
As someone who has been harassed, both on here and in World of Warcraft, and outside of video games, I think it's pretty terrible to insinuate that these stories are made-up or the result of some sort of mental illness.

And, at the end of the day: So what? Would an account-wide ignore be a bad feature even if harassment didn't go that far? What harm is done by enabling this?
Your quote posted below I believe is relevant to the two questions stated above.

Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
You tell me. Since you have been harassed (people's definition may vary) on more than one game and in real life, would you like it if the people that know you as your character named "bob" noticed a character named "bill" playing that reminded them of "bob," so they entered the name "bob" on their ignore list and noticed "bill" also disappeared from the player list, thus confirming their suspicion. Now, while they can't chat with you directly or queue for PvE stuff with you (since you are ignoring their legacy), they can still mess with you through many different ways from custom emotes to abilities. They can follow your whereabouts by adding your name(s) to their friend list and stalk away if that is their thing.
So I bring up a new question, which player list are you referring you? If you are referring to the /who list, under the current build, you can still see the names if you are ignoring or the ignored and can still see the planet and the instance, but doesn't show where on the map someone is.I'm not entirely sure about the friend's list, in case anyone hasn't picked that up from the title of this thread, but to my knowledge, it works much the same way with the addition of getting a notification when someone is online. Now if someone can clarify under the current build if A is ignored and B comes online AND B is on A's friend list, do they still get the notification that B is online? If so, under the proposed build, can it be so that if the conditions above are true, A will not get the notification the B is online and B just remains greyed out?

To go along the theory that they do go through the lengths to find out exactly where someone is on a planet in either the current or proposed build, report them. Seriously, I cannot stress this enough.

Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
You can friend someone that ignores you.



Likewise, if a person that is ignored switches alts to continue to harass you, they should be reported and disciplined as necessary. It's still the same person regardless of whether you ignored one or two of his alts or his whole legacy.
Bully to you. We are in agreement on this one.

Now to this:

Quote: Originally Posted by decicco View Post
The GENERAL consensus of those who have posted to this forum would like to see some sort of global ignore to cut down on credit spammers and those who, quite frankly, degrade our experience of the game.
Your response was this:

Quote: Originally Posted by BRKMSN View Post
Actually, the suggestion box forum topics tend to only get clicked on by people interested in the particular topic. So, a majority of Suggestion Box readers ignored this thread or had no opinion to add. The general consensus is that there are about 7 or 8 posters that would definitely like to be able to ignore legacies, a couple that don't like the idea and one or two more that are concerned about how it would work. That's hardly grounds for the Devs to break away from their current agenda to redo something that has been a good compromise for over 7 years now.

As for (credit) spam-bots, they aren't from 1 legacy, so legacy ignore would have no effect on that "problem." A possible solution to that, that I mentioned earlier would be for ignore lists to automatically be updated when a character from the list is banned. There is no reason for a banned character to stay on a list. Spam bots have a lifespan of about 1-5 days, so it really wouldn't be too hard to manually delete them for now since their names are always gibberish (or gibberishadad).

Finally, one point that was not discussed at all is how would an "ignore legacy" overhaul effect overall game performance? Obviously there's a limit to the current system for a reason, now you are proposing a potential increased burden in the average ignore list size. Another point is when you are discussing legacy, you have to keep in mind the two factions limit what can currently be done in regard to legacy. That's another challenge that hasn't been addressed in this game. But it's not like a Pub toon can harass an Imp toon. But since legacy is cross-faction and ignore and friend lists are not, that's another problem.

Bonus thought ...

How soon after legacy ignore would be implemented that the more needy and dependent players start begging for legacy friending as well?
I said "The GENERAL consensus of those who have posted to this forum" the term general meaning most people or the overall elements, and the term consensus being a general agreement, we have issue with definition here. What you have is a specific quantifiable set of parameters. The majority of posters on this forum would like to see this feature implemented. I'm not going to get all eyes on this forum. Those that think it is relevant to them will click on it, positive or negative. Now you approximately claim that the devs should not break away from their agenda to take a look at the suggestion box, this forum specifically. now the suggestion box as stated http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=208811 says "Welcome to the Suggestion Box Forum! This forum exists so that Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ community members can discuss suggestions they have for the game. Please make sure that your suggestions are constructive!" There is the implication that members of the community will discuss these on the forums and that devs MIGHT look at it. There's no guarantee here for or against the devs being obligated to look here, but there is the implication that they have someone scroll through here to find out what might be feasible and conducive to TOR.

Regarding credit spammers, yes they will find ways around this, but this presents an additional obstacle for them to overcome. It is my thought that under the current build, they keep accounts for a few days, all the while jumping toons to spend spam messages. Under the proposed build, if a character is ignored on their account, they would need to make a new account every time, which I can only imagine sets off flags for the dev team and allows them to track and block IP's on a more frequent basis, though this is speculation.

Regarding game performance, honestly, I highly doubt that another true/false command would affect game performance when there are already countless true/false commands constantly going through that protocol every second.

And your bonus thought? Yeah, make that a thing, too. That I'm also all for.
Captain DeCicco Ehne
Founding Council Member of Disciples of Sith

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BRKMSN
02.12.2019 , 08:16 PM | #40
FYI, my exploit example was referring to /who. Basically a person would see another toon and something would trigger familiarity ... that would lead to the exploit. They would only have to add a character name of the person they knew to their own ignore list and see if the person they suspect's name disappears from the who list.

I really don't know whether ignoring a legacy would increase, decrease or keep game performance the same. I just thought it was worth consideration. It could lessen the burden in theory because the list would only contain a single legacy instead of multiple names from the same legacy. It could increase the burden by searching for more names all the time ((if it is implemented that way) or by always having to track ignored characters that it otherwise wouldn't be tracking (IMO, most people that use ignore probably interact with alts of a person they're ignoring all the time with no issues --- in this case ignore legacy would be overkill since neither person is experiencing conflict.) Anyway, maybe it doesn't change performance at all. IDK really.

Bonus thought continued ... Please think about what would happen if you could friend entire legacies. There's no way you could play when you don't want to be disturbed (anonymously). Sure, you could overhaul the friend list to require permission to friend someone, then you add notifications to each player upon login ... something spambots would also exploit. That would increase the burden on the game as I have witnessed that in other games. You would also have to cycle through potentially hundreds of friends in lists to send mail to and whatnot. No thanks.

As I mentioned before, the biggest issue might be to figure out how to work around factions for legacy stuff. This game isn't exactly bug free.
We have a zero tolerance policy for intolerance of any kind.