Hi all,

I would like to know your opinion about expertise (or equivalent pvp stat in other mmos).

1°/ Is it really necessary for pvp in a mmorpg ?

2°/ if we consider that only skill should matter (and not gear), what would you like to have as pvp rewards & incentive ?

Thanks for yours replies and ideas

I have never been a fan of the *PvP stat.* I think it creates more problems than it solves.

The easiest solution (as others have mentioned in other threads) is to just normalize Expertise. All PvP gear has the same amount, and the difference just comes from the raw normal stat increases. Sounds neat and tidy, to me, and keeps the PvE'ers from using this gear that has a *wasted stat.*

This also creates a much, much small gear gap overall, which puts the emphasis on teamwork and skill, rather than gear. All they would have to do is update the Entry level gear set (Recruit, currently) to maintain a constant gap, and move on. Again, really neat and tidy.

So why don't they? The *PvP stat* is the cheap and easy way to try to balance PvP without affecting PvE too much, when they really should have built their combat system from the ground up to have two different damage/mitigation/healing tables determined by target in the open world, and by location (WZ vs. PvE instanced content) otherwise. The PvP stat is just cheaper, bottom line.

Truly, I wish it would go away.

Riôt

I have never been a fan of the *PvP stat.* I think it creates more problems than it solves.

I disagree. Without Expertise, PVE raiders dominate PVP because the gear gap tends to get extreme. Expertise is a great concept, but BioWare needs to expand on it because the current state of PVP seems to be "zerg fest" and I tend to enjoy fights the last a bit longer more so than; focus fire -> dead

Hi all,

 

I would like to know your opinion about expertise (or equivalent pvp stat in other mmos).

1°/ Is it really necessary for pvp in a mmorpg ?

2°/ if we consider that only skill should matter (and not gear), what would you like to have as pvp rewards & incentive ?

 

Thanks for yours replies and ideas

Expertise is not necessary, but it is an easy answer. Instead of expertise there needs to be a system of small rewards granted for success in pvp that allows crafters to build gear usable no matter the scenario.

No nerfs needed here. If you want to scale back damage, mitigation or healing, you change the impact of the stats instead of the professions.

This would effect both pve&pvp but who cares, because the community would be so focused on itself, the changes would "seem" minor.

HORRIBLE idea!

Defeating an enemy because you have better gear is as rewarding as killing someone who went link dead.

It's a necessary evil. You either have a PvPcentric stat, or raid gear becomes boss in PvP. You can't make the PvP gear as good as raid gear, because then your raiders will have a heart attack. That's just the way it has to work to try and keep all camps happy.

I disagree. If they'd have simply reversed that stats (expertise = PvE), they'd have made the gear gap mean next to nothing for PvPers.

I disagree. If they'd have simply reversed that stats (expertise = PvE), they'd have made the gear gap mean next to nothing for PvPers.

You know, you bring up a good point. I thought that they should have used accuracy as the PvE stat, as in you needed a certain amount to be able to hit the raid mobs. I would really be happy either way. I would rather people have easy access to gear than have a bunch of people on my team with no gear waiting to get slaughtered.

I think it creates more problems than it solves.

Agree here.

Some of the problems it solves:

• it keeps PvE and PvP gear separate. No PvP'ing for your raid weapons, no PvE'ing for your PvP set.
  
• it can be used to make newcomers viable in PvP - toss free expertise on starter gear, and they're not simply fodder for the slaughter.
  
• it gives a method to counter/mitigate stat-inflation. Since PvP & PvE gear would have to be nearly identical otherwise (to keep 1 from being better than the other), new PvP gear would have to scale as PvE gear does. And PvE gear usually has to scale a lot to force *progression*.
  

A few of the problems it creates:

• inconvenient for players. It's another set of gear you have to carry & equip.
  
• it's another stat to *try* and balance. Is it adding too much survivability? Too much DPS? Too much healing? That stuff has to be balanced & adjusted, unlike PvE content where they can often just modify encounters if they see a problem.
  
• PvP Healing - similar to above, but the exception is that there's no counter to it's scaling. A low expertise DPS group will drop a low expertise group at the same rate a high expertise DPS group will drop a high one because survivability from expertise goes up with damage. Healers on the other hand don't have a counter-balance. Their healing just gets better as they gain more expertise - people take the same damage in a mirror-match as they scale, but healers are healing for more. They become more valuable in a high-expertise matchup vs a low one.
  
• PvE gear viability in PvP becomes an issue. The only way to address that is to make Expertise so incredibly valuable that PvE gear is utterly worthless in PvP. At that point, expertise basically becomes the "only" stat worth looking at which is pretty boring, and also ensures that a PvE'er who shows up for PvP without expertise gear (for a fun match, or a break, or whatever) has 0 viability and gets horribly destroyed.
  

Could go on, but that gives an idea.

There are trade-offs certainly. It's not a perfect system, but nothing is. We just have to hope BioWare puts a whole pile of effort into trying to balance the system as we go. So far, they seem to be doing a surprisingly good job (which is a good sign), but balancing it is going to be a never-ending job.

2°/ if we consider that only skill should matter (and not gear), what would you like to have as pvp rewards & incentive ?

Gear should matter in that it gives you a *minor* edge. I'll farm up gear that has +2 stats on it, because it *might* be that little bit that makes the difference.

LoL did this pretty well - those runes & talents you got were all pretty minor (though they admittedly did add up), and you tended to pick ones that played to your particular playstyle.

TOR has done this pretty well too - the difference between say... Champion and Battlemaster gear isn't very extreme. Sure it's an upgrade, but a BM team isn't going to roll a Champ team by any means. Skill, composition, etc all mean a lot more. The BM team has an edge, but it's not massive.

Hi all,

 

I would like to know your opinion about expertise (or equivalent pvp stat in other mmos).

1°/ Is it really necessary for pvp in a mmorpg ?

2°/ if we consider that only skill should matter (and not gear), what would you like to have as pvp rewards & incentive ?

 

Thanks for yours replies and ideas

Two things:

If the express goal of PvP gear is to A: Remove PvE gear from influencing PvP (A good thing, imo) while B: Still allowing us to customize our stats, then it's fine.

When it becomes instead a simple grindy progression system, it's bad. It still does A and B, but it's grindy as all hell, and creates one mother of a gear gap. Recruit vs bm is unfair as hell, recruit vs Augmented War hero with remodded for perfect stat spread is going to be a disgustingly unfair gear gap.

I'd prefer equalized stats tbh. or at the very least PvP gear be free - ie; war hero costing credits but having more expertise and way less other stats so as to not interfere with PvE content. Even playing field but still allowing us to move mods/enhancements around so we can build our stats how we like, I do enjoy that, just not the grind.

You know, you bring up a good point. I thought that they should have used accuracy as the PvE stat, as in you needed a certain amount to be able to hit the raid mobs. I would really be happy either way. I would rather people have easy access to gear than have a bunch of people on my team with no gear waiting to get slaughtered.

Well thank you. It's refreshing to disagree with someone who has an open mind

The advantage of attaching expertise to PvE gear is that the Devs would have a MUCH easier time adjusting content based on the gear (expertise). They'd be able to control the fights better too - something they want to do based on recent replies and changes to how med packs are used. HM/NM could be as simple as a reduction in what expertise offers (25%, 15%, 5%). As more content is released and gear becomes more and more powerful, you'd need less players to complete the older instances (EV/KP), which would also make it easier to get a group of 4 new players, 2 fully geared kick **edit** players.

I strongly believe that PvP needs to be as easy to join as possible to sustain an active player base. You NEED to give players an opportunity to be competitive, or those new to it will never join. PvP rewards should be time limited consumables, cosmetics, titles or non-impact vanity rewards.

Just my 2 cents

I have never been a fan of the *PvP stat.* I think it creates more problems than it solves.

 

The easiest solution (as others have mentioned in other threads) is to just normalize Expertise. All PvP gear has the same amount, and the difference just comes from the raw normal stat increases. ....

 

Riôt

If it were up to me, everyone would bolster to the same stats for their class and it would be skill vs skill instead of gear vs gear.

But then that would take the gear grind out of it. And people who are adicted to gear progression would hate it.

To me gear progression is a PvE thing. Putting it into PvP just causes frustrating imbalances that will never even out because once everyone starts to reach the same gear level they introduce a new trier of gear and the hamster wheel (and sub $$) keep turning. =(

Well thank you. It's refreshing to disagree with someone who has an open mind

 

The advantage of attaching expertise to PvE gear is that the Devs would have a MUCH easier time adjusting content based on the gear (expertise). They'd be able to control the fights better too - something they want to do based on recent replies and changes to how med packs are used. HM/NM could be as simple as a reduction in what expertise offers (25%, 15%, 5%). As more content is released and gear becomes more and more powerful, you'd need less players to complete the older instances (EV/KP), which would also make it easier to get a group of 4 new players, 2 fully geared kick **edit** players.

 

I strongly believe that PvP needs to be as easy to join as possible to sustain an active player base. You NEED to give players an opportunity to be competitive, or those new to it will never join. PvP rewards should be time limited consumables, cosmetics, titles or non-impact vanity rewards.

 

Just my 2 cents

Well that's how EQ2 ended up tiering their raid content before I left that game. You needed a certain amount of critical mitigation for pve raid bosses, as you got more you could progress through the higher tiers of content. I actually think the system worked pretty good.

Another thing that EQ2 got right imo, was having a set of pvp and a set of pve stats. In other words, that nasty aoe you had for pve would do a different amount of damange in pvp. Basically they kept the two completely separate, which I thought was good.

Well that's how EQ2 ended up tiering their raid content before I left that game. You needed a certain amount of critical mitigation for pve raid bosses, as you got more you could progress through the higher tiers of content. I actually think the system worked pretty good.

 

Another thing that EQ2 got right imo, was having a set of pvp and a set of pve stats. In other words, that nasty aoe you had for pve would do a different amount of damange in pvp. Basically they kept the two completely separate, which I thought was good.

But this is exactly what Expertise/Resilience is intended to do. It is the "PvP" stat that differentiates PvP and PvE gear so PvE gear, because it dosen't have expertise does a different amount of damage in PvP and vice versa. Accuracy could be an additional stat to use. In WoW for example you needed much more "hit" (SWTOR Accuracy) to not miss high level raid bosses than you needed for PvP.

Gear progressions is one of the primary differences between MMO PvP and FPS games. If you take it out of PvP then why not take it out of PvE? For many people the gear/character progression is one of the attractions of an MMO. Does it make a huge difference in top end PvP, I'd say no. By the time you are doing ranked WZ your gear should be up to par.

The biggest issue, to me, with PvP in SWTOR is that with the boost to damage and decrease in healing in 1.2 it has exacerbated the class imbalances that already existed prior to 1.2 even without any of the other nerfs/buffs. Inadequate testing on the PTR (No level 50 PvP) didn't show this, although there were complaints.. Now some of the issues that should have been exposed on the PTR are being exposed on the live systems. We may as well be playing on PTRs at the moment.

But this is exactly what Expertise/Resilience is intended to do. It is the "PvP" stat that differentiates PvP and PvE gear so PvE gear, because it dosen't have expertise does a different amount of damage in PvP and vice versa.

 

Gear progressions is one of the primary differences between MMO PvP and FPS games. If you take it out of PvP then why not take it out of PvE? For many people the gear/character progression is one of the attractions of an MMO. Does it make a huge difference in top end PvP, I'd say no. By the time you are doing ranked WZ your gear should be up to par.

 

The biggest issue, to me, with PvP in SWTOR is that with the boost to damage and decrease in healing in 1.2 it has exacerbated the class imbalances that already existed prior to 1.2 even without any of the other nerfs/buffs. Inadequate testing on the PTR (No level 50 PvP) didn't show this, although there were complaints.. Now some of the issues that should have been exposed on the PTR are being exposed on the live systems. We may as well be playing on PTRs at the moment.

Raiders don't want a raiding stat gone, as that is how they measure their epeens. I raid, but honestly I don't enjoy it a whole lot. I more do it to play with my guildies that I've literally played MMO's with for 6 plus years.

I don't think there really is any easy answers, everyone will have their preference, they will always end up making someone upset and someone happy. On my server, healing isn't an issue even since 1.2. Those folks that changed to dps after the changes, have all now switched back to heals. Heals still determine who wins and loses in most games.

Expertise is the best incarnation of a PvP stat I've seen so far. In fact it's so good that even Blizzard is coping in in MOP.

However, having separate PvP and PvE gear progression really seems like an outdated concept. Resilience was originally a stat implemented to deal with excessive damage scaling and then became the defining PvP stat.

I'd prefer a game where all gear was equally viable in every situation. You just get to pick how you'll attain said gear.

But I can understand why designers don't want to do it. The separation gives us two gear-treadmills after all, instead of one.

I disagree. If they'd have simply reversed that stats (expertise = PvE), they'd have made the gear gap mean next to nothing for PvPers.

That would bring the same problem to reverse the expertise to PvE gear. -_-'

PvE people would come saying PvP gear is too OP because they can't do anything against PvPer and their higher stats.

And if you mean PvP gear got same stats as PvE gear but PvE gear get expertise on top of it. That's plain stupid because the hardcore PvEer would face roll the PvP players with their gear they did not get by doing PvP.

Expertise right now just need the damage done and damage reduced switched so the fights last longer and is not a zerg fest. But then that bring problem to the simple fact that the warzones are extremely bad in terms of how zerg oriented they are.

Edit : to the poster above.

No PvP fan want PvEers to be on par with them. And no PvE fan want PvPers to be on par with them.

If you want to do endgame ops you need to get the PvE gear first by doing PvE. If you want the endgame PvP gear you need to get your PvP going.

Hi all,

 

I would like to know your opinion about expertise (or equivalent pvp stat in other mmos).

1°/ Is it really necessary for pvp in a mmorpg ?

2°/ if we consider that only skill should matter (and not gear), what would you like to have as pvp rewards & incentive ?

 

Thanks for yours replies and ideas

#1 No it's not necessary (and in general is a bad idea) but you have to set your game up with a PvP gear cap so that players with high end raid gear don't overwhelm others.

#2 Guild wars uses gear that looks good, but given the state of the appearance of PvP armor thus far that's probably beyond this game's developers' skills lol. For the most part, incentive should be enjoying PvP. If they only want gear, that's what PvE is for. One good idea (among a ton of bad going to worse going to abysmal ideas) that Age of Conan had was player keeps. PvPers would be motivated to attack the keeps to take them from others who would hold them because of the bonuses they provided to crafting and making money. Something along these lines, with faction bases, would be nice to see.

Hi all,

 

I would like to know your opinion about expertise (or equivalent pvp stat in other mmos).

1°/ Is it really necessary for pvp in a mmorpg ?

2°/ if we consider that only skill should matter (and not gear), what would you like to have as pvp rewards & incentive ?

 

Thanks for yours replies and ideas

1- yes

2- it would require a totally different game. Different rewards won't make any difference. In other words gearless PvP in SWTOR = mass exodus to other games better suited for that (like GW2 for example).

Bad. anyone who says otherwise cant' last in PvP without their gear.

and for the ones saying "expertise keeps the PvE crowd from coming into a WZ and face-rolling everyone" well, make end game PvP gear and end game PvE gear the have the same stats to prevent that. problem solved.

Bad idea;

The second you introduce disparity in your gear with stats like Expertise, is the second you tell your players that it doesn't matter how well or poorly they play, it only matters how long they grind. That's just stupid and an insult to the people that want to actually play the game, not just have the power to faceroll newbies because their gear allows them to compensate for lack of any type of actual skill or effort.

Forced separate progression paths is a poor idea, plain and simple, and Expertise causes separation. PvPers PvP, they want to PvP, they enjoy PvPing. If I decide to raid, so be it, I raid in my PvP gear and if I happen to get a drop I'll use that instead, but I could careless because I am a PvPer. If you do both PvP and PvE, then it doesn't matter because you're going to get both rewards anyways, so does it really matter if you need to sets of gear, or if it's nice being rewarded for to styles of playing the game. If all you do if PvE, then you don't even care about what's going on in the PvP world. Separate progression paths should only be so players have the freedom of choice to access the gear via whatever way they enjoy playing the game; not because they can't get the gear any other way and are forced to do it this way. So, PvE'ers get gear by doing PvE. PvP'ers get gear by doing PvP. Different looks, different set bonuses, different ways to customize, these are all things that make having more choices fun... but never anything to force players into one venue or the other, never removing the ability to allow the player base to choose freely how they want to get gear. And there is no reason PvPers shouldn't be able to take a break from PvP and raid, and raiders shouldn't be able to take a break from Raiding and PvP. The fact that I die during a raid because I didn't know where to stand, or the fact that they die during PvP because they didn't know... those are the things that should separate players... how well they actually play.

Any real PvPer will tell you that they'd rather PvP stark-naked than allow a disparity gap be created from poorly implemented PvP gear!

Bad. anyone who says otherwise cant' last in PvP without their gear.

 

and for the ones saying "expertise keeps the PvE crowd from coming into a WZ and face-rolling everyone" well, make end game PvP gear and end game PvE gear the have the same stats to prevent that. problem solved.

But then people take the path-of-least-resistance to get the gear.

PvE players who can't clear a raid start doing PvP to get the gear. Many of those don't like PvP, aren't good at PvP, and won't even try. It's infuriating when you have one of them in your PvP group. Conversation goes like this:

YOU: Why didn't you grab the ball?! You were right there.

THEM: I'm just here for my raid gear. I'm just killing stuff. **** YOU.

<later>

YOU: Pass the ball!

THEM: I don't know how.

YOU: There's an ability called "throw the huttball".

THEM: Oh I took that off my bar.

YOU: Well put it back on!

THEM: Better idea. Stop passing to me. I don't even want the ball, remember?

<next game>

YOU: We don't need 3 people sitting at that node.

THEM: I'm playing poker in the background. Don't worry I'll see if somebody comes.

No PvP fan want PvEers to be on par with them. And no PvE fan want PvPers to be on par with them.

If you want to do endgame ops you need to get the PvE gear first by doing PvE. If you want the endgame PvP gear you need to get your PvP going.

I consider myself a PvPer. "I" want PvEers to be on par with me gear wise. Why would ANY true fan of PvP want a gear advantage? That only proves you need a crutch to win. "I" prefer to outwit someone in PvP...not out gear them.