PROBLEM:

As it stands, DPS being able to guard allies (absorbing damage) imbalances PvP. Especially in Solo Ranked Arenas, but also in reg warzones or even world pvp. Having DPS being able to guard also diminishes and negatively affects the tank’s role in the game, as well as the tank gear mods/enh. It is not uncommon to have DPS classes with a metric ton more protection than tanks, while also producing 10x more damage than a tank could provide. To the point at which there are few true tanks and true tank suits left in the game.

I’ll also include the fact that DPS guards also negatively effect the other DPS classes that cannot guard, as there isnt much incentive for solo ranked play on non-guard classes if you can do same damage output but also protect your team infinitely better on a guard-DPS class.

SOLUTION:

Change guard on DPS specs to only reduce threat generation on guarded targets (and have it no longer absorbs/share damage with the guarded target). This still allows this ability to remain in the game without having to remove it entirely, and will still be very viable in PvE and raiding, without the negative PvP side effects.

Changing this will also balance the guard-DPS classes with non-guard-DPS classes and even out the playing field.

I've said it for a while- offguard can exist in pvp, but it needs to have a drawback. Redistributing damage across 2 targets is not a drawback when TTK is so important in solo ranked, especially if the other team doesn't have it. The best offguarding class, deception, can even stealth out and heal to full, essentially granting an entire additional health pool for the focus target with little to no downside other than minimal lost dps uptime for the deception sin while they heal.

Offguarding should do some combo of this in my view:

a.) Reduce the damage the person offguarding does by a material amount, I'm thinking ~20%

b.) Increase mana cost of dps abilities while offguarding (i.e. all damaging abilities cost more mana, leading to more challenging energy management and a potential dps loss).

If these changes were made, offguarding would be a decision that requires thought rather than being the default best decision nearly 100% of the time your ally gets low. Solo ranked is an offguard meta even more than a stealth meta right now in 4 dps and 3 dps/1 healer games. Totally removing offguard is also an option (and the easiest) but I don't think that's the best solution, there's room for offguard in players pushing their class's performance cap, but it's broken in its current form.

I've said it for a while- offguard can exist in pvp, but it needs to have a drawback. Redistributing damage across 2 targets is not a drawback when TTK is so important in solo ranked, especially if the other team doesn't have it. The best offguarding class, deception, can even stealth out and heal to full, essentially granting an entire additional health pool for the focus target with little to no downside other than minimal lost dps uptime for the deception sin while they heal.

 

Offguarding should do some combo of this in my view:

a.) Reduce the damage the person offguarding does by a material amount, I'm thinking ~20%

b.) Increase mana cost of dps abilities while offguarding (i.e. all damaging abilities cost more mana, leading to more challenging energy management and a potential dps loss).

 

If these changes were made, offguarding would be a decision that requires thought rather than being the default best decision nearly 100% of the time your ally gets low. Solo ranked is an offguard meta even more than a stealth meta right now in 4 dps and 3 dps/1 healer games. Totally removing offguard is also an option (and the easiest) but I don't think that's the best solution, there's room for offguard in players pushing their class's performance cap, but it's broken in its current form.

DPS Guarding is even worse when theres a healer game because effectively, the DPS guard becomes a tank and its gg from there.

I have not played this season yet but I can only assume Grit/force bound on dps jugg is working in ranked. It certainly makes the dps class hardier than they have been. I have been playing with that set up in regs and, yes, use guard all the time.

I don't get it though? Are we really complaining about the bottom of the barrel dps class of last season?

IMO Juggs, regardless of tank or dps, need to be able to take a beating. I see them as the front line, in your face, characters in the game and see no issue with guard swapping. They should always be the meat shields in pvp. I am glad it is working, the way the dps class played last season was an embarrassment.

Yeah guard from dps specs is a big advantage now because if you start switching between two dps who drop guard/guard each other you split dps which makes it easier for enemy healer to keep them both alive while their team just derps into one of your team mates receives all dps from 3 players without any serious interrupts or pauses. Besides in the past pts didn't had the new armor boost buff,

And we didn't had sins with 3 vanishes, juggs with force bound and grit teeth which made them way more tankier

Literallly in ranked team with two guarding dps wins easily against a team with no double guard dps which is unfair and lopsided

I have not played this season yet but I can only assume Grit/force bound on dps jugg is working in ranked. It certainly makes the dps class hardier than they have been. I have been playing with that set up in regs and, yes, use guard all the time.

I mean i use guard as a vigi guardian in regs all the time, and im still running descent of the fearless.

Offguarding should do some combo of this in my view:

a.) Reduce the damage the person offguarding does by a material amount, I'm thinking ~20%

b.) Increase mana cost of dps abilities while offguarding (i.e. all damaging abilities cost more mana, leading to more challenging energy management and a potential dps loss).

 

If these changes were made, offguarding would be a decision that requires thought rather than being the default best decision nearly 100% of the time your ally gets low. Solo ranked is an offguard meta even more than a stealth meta right now in 4 dps and 3 dps/1 healer games. Totally removing offguard is also an option (and the easiest) but I don't think that's the best solution, there's room for offguard in players pushing their class's performance cap, but it's broken in its current form.

I like that solution. I'm fond of the even simpler reduce damage on guarded target by 50% and reduce your own damage output by 50%.

One of the only things that makes me want to stop queueing on my sorc (and sometimes succeeds) is constant heal games with tons of offguarding classes. It's just painful.

I like that solution. I'm fond of the even simpler reduce damage on guarded target by 50% and reduce your own damage output by 50%.

 

One of the only things that makes me want to stop queueing on my sorc (and sometimes succeeds) is constant heal games with tons of offguarding classes. It's just painful.

A big number of my losses on marauder during pre season were mostly due to off guarding.. No way around it if the enemy team has players who know how to use it, while yours has zero.. or only one that isn't really good at it.

Ironically, I've been put in non offguard teams vs at least 2 or 3 offguarding players a lot of times. I don't really understand the logic of this matchmaking, but on a second thought I do: The matchmaker doesn't take things like guard or no guard into account when making 2 teams.

Just remove it . PVP was fine for 8 seasons without it.

Bring back all the stances for tank classes.

Require defensive stances for using guard.

Problem solved.

For those who forgot or don't know...defensive stances would give penalties to dps and bonuses to DR/armor for tank classes, but additionally, dps specs would lose out on synergies with their abilities used in the wrong stance. (For instance, veng juggs lost their immunity to cc on leap, produced less resources on rage builders, and missed out on some bonus damage/rage generation on dps abilities). It also dumped all your resources every time you switch stances, and switching used a gcd.

So you could save your friend with guard...but it costs you.

Bringing back defensive stances would also help considerably with the dps jugg situation in solo, creating a meta where they would probably start in soresu form and then switch to their respective forms when they're ready to take a chance. It would add a bit to the skill ceiling for dps juggs, and their survivability, both of which need attention quite frankly.

Bring back all the stances for tank classes.

 

Require defensive stances for using guard.

 

Problem solved.

 

For those who forgot or don't know...defensive stances would give penalties to dps and bonuses to DR/armor for tank classes, but additionally, dps specs would lose out on synergies with their abilities used in the wrong stance. (For instance, veng juggs lost their immunity to cc on leap, produced less resources on rage builders, and missed out on some bonus damage/rage generation on dps abilities). It also dumped all your resources every time you switch stances, and switching used a gcd.

 

So you could save your friend with guard...but it costs you.

 

Bringing back defensive stances would also help considerably with the dps jugg situation in solo, creating a meta where they would probably start in soresu form and then switch to their respective forms when they're ready to take a chance. It would add a bit to the skill ceiling for dps juggs, and their survivability, both of which need attention quite frankly.

I agree and would be 100% fine with that. I used to "stance dance" quite often. I cannot remember exactly, but I do not recall a stance gcd for juggs back then though (sorry if I am incorrect about that).

I still don't quite follow the argument here though. So the Skank, tank in dps gear, is ok BUT a dps acting, more or less like a tank -in tank gear- is not?

Force Bound.....is a tanking set. The 70% accuracy reduction has given dps juggs just a couple more seconds to allow for their defensive GDC's/Grit to be useful. Hence, they are not a glass cannon anymore. Juggs, both dps and tank, were swapping guards before Force Bound/Grit were both introduced. It was not a problem then was it?

Sounds to me there is an issue with gear vs a juggs ability to guard.

I would be more than happy to go with the descent/hemophilic slash build for vig. It can melt opponents but is just not viable in ranked, especially with a guard up.

I still don't quite follow the argument here though. So the Skank, tank in dps gear, is ok BUT a dps acting, more or less like a tank -in tank gear- is not?

I mean, true tank gear would also be using tank armoring/mod/enhancements. This is why we say a tank running force bound and grit but using dps item mods is a skank, which does benefit from the added dps, with a questionable drop off in survivability. A dps using def/shield/absorb is just a moron.

I havent run anything with force bound as I havent been playing much since it was introduced, and can't afford the gtn prices for the set.

The issue with gear is obviously that its the only viable set for both tanks and dps in pvp. It pains me to do this, because I hate agreeing with prum on anything, but I say fix dps guardians in pvp by dealing with the focus issue (I've made my suggestions plenty of times, and grit teeth should be fine as long as they don't rescale it back to a proper heal to full), then nix or nerf or adjust the force bound set to either be more tank specific or just less good than the alternates. And by the way, put it on the darn vendor while they're at it.

On stances, that ship sailed long ago. If we think guard on dps is op, nix it and give us utility useful to doing dps. And I would add, once again, where are the complaints about taunting? Ive done far more protection in warzones from taunting than by guarding, yet no one ever complains about that.

Oh and I also seriously doubt force bound fixing all the problems with dps guardians in pvp. I wouldn't know because I'm not going to play enough to get it, and I find the whole paying millions (or getting lucky and getting a schematic off Kai that I then have to grind crafters to level to make the set) to get an empty gear set that I still have to go grind bis mods and enhancements for borderline ridiculous.

I mean, true tank gear would also be using tank armoring/mod/enhancements. This is why we say a tank running force bound and grit but using dps item mods is a skank, which does benefit from the added dps, with a questionable drop off in survivability. A dps using def/shield/absorb is just a moron.

 

I havent run anything with force bound as I havent been playing much since it was introduced, and can't afford the gtn prices for the set.

 

The issue with gear is obviously that its the only viable set for both tanks and dps in pvp. It pains me to do this, because I hate agreeing with prum on anything, but I say fix dps guardians in pvp by dealing with the focus issue (I've made my suggestions plenty of times, and grit teeth should be fine as long as they don't rescale it back to a proper heal to full), then nix or nerf or adjust the force bound set to either be more tank specific or just less good than the alternates. And by the way, put it on the darn vendor while they're at it.

 

On stances, that ship sailed long ago. If we think guard on dps is op, nix it and give us utility useful to doing dps. And I would add, once again, where are the complaints about taunting? Ive done far more protection in warzones from taunting than by guarding, yet no one ever complains about that.

 

Oh and I also seriously doubt force bound fixing all the problems with dps guardians in pvp. I wouldn't know because I'm not going to play enough to get it, and I find the whole paying millions (or getting lucky and getting a schematic off Kai that I then have to grind crafters to level to make the set) to get an empty gear set that I still have to go grind bis mods and enhancements for borderline ridiculous.

First, I never insinuated that a dps runs with tank armoring, mods, and enhancements. You are correct....that would be moronic. Second, I run a skank with all dps armoring, mods, enhancements, augs and descent/force bound...I preferred a shield generator for off hand and grit. It actually works pretty well in pvp, marginal drop in dmg taken but a huge boost in dmg delivered.

As I have said in the past, skank, although fun, was not my thing. I did not like the mechanics, felt slow and if I was lumbering around maps. So I just repsec'd a different skank back to vig with the exact same build and noticed a significant difference in survivability for the dps version.

Yes, with force bound/grit, a vig knight plays more like a tank.....all because force bound allows more time for your defensive cds and grit to proc several times during a match. Yes, it works well enough to guard swap and still stay up while you work your rotation to spread burns. They are functional now and can stand up to all the stealthers, stun locks, and ranged.

With that being said, I agree with you that dps needs a fix. I would rather be running, as I have said, with dps specific gear but, in ranked, that is not possible. They just get destroyed.

Now the dps version plays similar to skank, but the dps version is the issue? I don't get that argument. Take away guard from dps but not skank? In a sense, they are the same thing right now.

Taking it away is not the fix. All I am saying.

I guess i need to emphasize my primary points better:

1. I have serious doubts (though I admit I havent tried it myself with force bound) vigi or focus come anywhere close to being tanklike even with force bound.

1a. And if they do that sounds like a force bound set problem.

1b. As someone who played all 3 specs in 5.x, where after

the rescaling of FD we faced the same ludicrous

accusations of being tanks as dps, my dps were nowhere

close to the survivability of my tank, and I played it geared

pretty much every possible way.

-i mention this because now FD is not scaled to nearly

what it was then (relatively speaking)

2. Personally, I'm fine if guard stays, I'm fine if it goes with the qualifier that we get something to fix our focus problem if it goes.

2a. I mention this because I really want the focus problem

fixed. Either give us something like the other classes have

to duck focus fire, or take it away from all of the other

classes who have it.

-i.e. if survivability is across the board too high, rather

Than refusing to buff us, nerf everyone else.

Edit sorry about the formatting - phone uncooperative today

I guess i need to emphasize my primary points better:

 

1. I have serious doubts (though I admit I havent tried it myself with force bound) vigi or focus come anywhere close to being tanklike even with force bound.

I know you're making a slightly different point, but just to reiterate, the problem in solo ranked isn't an individual dps jugg's survival, far from it. The biggest problem comes when there are multiple offguarding classes on one team in a healer game. While they get to focus on one target, the other team is forced to split dps between two if they are constaantly guarding, dropping guard, guarding the other, etc, all while being healed. And grit teeth juggs are the most effective at doing this, because they'll constantly get ED back. And if there are multiple force bounds, that just compounds the problem even further.

It's especially annoying if you're playing a dps without offguard, because you're directly lessening the chances of your team having multiple offguards just by being there.

I know you're making a slightly different point, but just to reiterate, the problem in solo ranked isn't an individual dps jugg's survival, far from it. The biggest problem comes when there are multiple offguarding classes on one team in a healer game. While they get to focus on one target, the other team is forced to split dps between two if they are constaantly guarding, dropping guard, guarding the other, etc, all while being healed. And grit teeth juggs are the most effective at doing this, because they'll constantly get ED back. And if there are multiple force bounds, that just compounds the problem even further.

 

It's especially annoying if you're playing a dps without offguard, because you're directly lessening the chances of your team having multiple offguards just by being there.

Is force bound really that effective? When I was playing last, it wasn't a thing. I did have grit teeth, and (ugh here come the you suck learn to play comments) under decent focus wasnt getting a second grit off (and as I mentioned, the scaling of FD is still back to being a not a heal to full).

I keep reiterating this point because I really feel its getting overlooked in the midst of all my other points: I really do not care what they do with dps guard. I'll be pissed if it goes away for tank specs, ill be pissed if it gets tied to tank stats without making tank stats useful, but if dps lose guard I do not care.

That said, there is irony in the continuous mentioning of guarding and not taunting.

and additionally, any kind of what if you have 3 guards/3 stealthers/ whatever is a matchmaking issue. Maybe BW should make that a consideration. If you have 2 guards, maybe they get split between the two teams. Heck if these things are really that big an issue, maybe you should have to wait for an identical team comp to face you. Because whats more important? Stealth? Guard? Should it put a dps over on a team with a dps sin against a merc and a jugg because that splits the guards? Then what about stealth? The point being, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and class balance problems will probably always exist.

And to reiterate yet again: i do not care if they get rid of dps guard. I just feel there are bigger issues

I know you're making a slightly different point, but just to reiterate, the problem in solo ranked isn't an individual dps jugg's survival, far from it. The biggest problem comes when there are multiple offguarding classes on one team in a healer game. While they get to focus on one target, the other team is forced to split dps between two if they are constaantly guarding, dropping guard, guarding the other, etc, all while being healed. And grit teeth juggs are the most effective at doing this, because they'll constantly get ED back. And if there are multiple force bounds, that just compounds the problem even further.

 

It's especially annoying if you're playing a dps without offguard, because you're directly lessening the chances of your team having multiple offguards just by being there.

I am done talking to kendra....like talking to a wall.

But Alex, I get it. So instead of nuking one player down within seconds there has to be thought involved? A plan? OMG...must be really wearing on you all having to work for wins now!

A single dps can guard swap, not die now, and dps in a match....I have done it.

I am done talking to kendra....like talking to a wall.

 

But Alex, I get it. So instead of nuking one player down within seconds there has to be thought involved? A plan? OMG...must be really wearing on you all having to work for wins now!

 

A single dps can guard swap, not die now, and dps in a match....I have done it.

Um wow. I think we actually want the same thing, which is to play dps guardians with an actual dps boosting set bonus. Im simply asking how exactly the set (force bound) can make that huge a difference.

And I too guard swapped as a dps and not die, and did before force bound or grit teeth were things. What are we even arguing over exactly?

Um wow. I think we actually want the same thing, which is to play dps guardians with an actual dps boosting set bonus. Im simply asking how exactly the set (force bound) can make that huge a difference.

 

And I too guard swapped as a dps and not die, and did before force bound or grit teeth were things. What are we even arguing over exactly?

No worries, I apologize K.

Not about u! Turds like Alex like to respond to me, through posts like yours. I have no ill will towards you. I actually read your posts quite often. I am terribly sorry!

But for Alex, and the rest of you all... I will retire my 3 guardians and 3 juggs, they are not deserving of ranked! So determined by them! Them there those guys who have determined themselves great!

Want to know what is amusing about this, yes I enjoy the class, but it does mean i have to play it. Cheers turds!

PS. .Alex, .just interested what the toons names you play on SF are....I know I am going to laugh if u tell me!

No worries, I apologize K.

 

Not about u! Turds like Alex like to respond to me, through posts like yours. I have no ill will towards you. I actually read your posts quite often. I am terribly sorry!

 

But for Alex, and the rest of you all... I will retire my 3 guardians and 3 juggs, they are not deserving of ranked! So determined by them! Them there those guys who have determined themselves great!

 

Want to know what is amusing about this, yes I enjoy the class, but it does mean i have to play it. Cheers turds!

 

PS. .Alex, .just interested what the toons names you play on SF are....I know I am going to laugh if u tell me!

Oh sorry I misunderstood - yes, I follow your posts as well and thats sorta why I got all offended haha.

Moving on, I can see the point on multiple guards on one team being annoying, but i think it could be dealt with via matchmaking changes

I just dont see how what was possibly the single squishiest class in ranked could have such a disproportionate impact. Like, i was being told not to queue (amongst other things) for no reason other than i was a dps guardian (again, this was before grit teeth or force bound were "released"), and if dps guardians in particular are so good because of guard combined with FD shouldn't they have been thanking me?

Perhaps, even probably, the answer is in the middle. Grit teeth... well I got it and love running it on my tanks. (And I generally run a tank geared tank, because when I do solos, I do it on dps). I quit bothering on my dps because frankly, they weren't living long enough to get a second use out of it, even at a 30s cd. This was with the descent of the fearless set, and I am genuinely interested in how force bound is in comparison. Probably not enough to make me return to swtor full time even if it is good (because I couldn't afford it if I wanted to based on my last login).

I agree and would be 100% fine with that. I used to "stance dance" quite often. I cannot remember exactly, but I do not recall a stance gcd for juggs back then though (sorry if I am incorrect about that).

 

Now that I think about it, you're probably right that it didn't use a gcd. I'm probably so used to pairing it with guard back in the day that I thought of it as a single "move".

Is force bound really that effective? When I was playing last, it wasn't a thing. I did have grit teeth, and (ugh here come the you suck learn to play comments) under decent focus wasnt getting a second grit off (and as I mentioned, the scaling of FD is still back to being a not a heal to full).

 

I keep reiterating this point because I really feel its getting overlooked in the midst of all my other points: I really do not care what they do with dps guard. I'll be pissed if it goes away for tank specs, ill be pissed if it gets tied to tank stats without making tank stats useful, but if dps lose guard I do not care.

 

That said, there is irony in the continuous mentioning of guarding and not taunting.

 

and additionally, any kind of what if you have 3 guards/3 stealthers/ whatever is a matchmaking issue. Maybe BW should make that a consideration. If you have 2 guards, maybe they get split between the two teams. Heck if these things are really that big an issue, maybe you should have to wait for an identical team comp to face you. Because whats more important? Stealth? Guard? Should it put a dps over on a team with a dps sin against a merc and a jugg because that splits the guards? Then what about stealth? The point being, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and class balance problems will probably always exist.

 

And to reiterate yet again: i do not care if they get rid of dps guard. I just feel there are bigger issues

I understand what you're saying. The problem with force bound isn't necessarily that it's super powerful, though it is very good. It's that it's so annoying to play against. Most people don't like not being able to do damage for such a long time. Not to mention it makes pt and sin tanks even worse than they already are compared to jugg tanks.

As for the matchmaking, we all want them to prevent class stacking, which would ideally help in splitting up the offguards. But still, as a mechanic, dps offguard should have a bigger downside or it should be removed from them, that's all.

I am done talking to kendra....like talking to a wall.

 

But Alex, I get it. So instead of nuking one player down within seconds there has to be thought involved? A plan? OMG...must be really wearing on you all having to work for wins now!

 

A single dps can guard swap, not die now, and dps in a match....I have done it.

Offguard is deciding matches when one team gets multiple offguards and the other team gets only 1 or none. It's that simple. If you could somehow have the matchmaking guarantee the exact same number of offguards on each team, theoretically that could solve the problem I suppose, but I don't know if they can do that.

I understand what you're saying. The problem with force bound isn't necessarily that it's super powerful, though it is very good. It's that it's so annoying to play against. Most people don't like not being able to do damage for such a long time. Not to mention it makes pt and sin tanks even worse than they already are compared to jugg tanks.

 

As for the matchmaking, we all want them to prevent class stacking, which would ideally help in splitting up the offguards. But still, as a mechanic, dps offguard should have a bigger downside or it should be removed from them, that's all.

 

 

 

Offguard is deciding matches when one team gets multiple offguards and the other team gets only 1 or none. It's that simple. If you could somehow have the matchmaking guarantee the exact same number of offguards on each team, theoreticallyu that could solve the problem I suppose, but I don't know if they can do that.

It is you....lol...amazing how that topic was danced around....

Please Alex, tell me how great ranked is on SF again please....

I will enjoy it so much!

I'm going to deliberately ignore the couple of forums warriors being deliberately antagonistic on this thread, and try and make this issue plain and simple.

Forcebound, crossguard (when two or more offguarders get a healer and alternate guard between each other so no one on their team can be bursted), and stealth (maras included due to their infinite vanish tactical) have made solo ranked 80% composition roullette, and 20% skill-based gameplay. Composition roullette is not fun for anyone. Playing a class without access to any of these autowin features puts you at a severe disadvantage because by just being in the match you are automatically decreasing the odds that these features are on your team. All three of them need to be severely rebalanced. You can play your class perfectly and you will still lose more than you win when teams full of these things are in queue.

In my opinion, forcebound should either be removed or be exclusive to dps juggernauts (as it was meant to make them viable not give a power-up to maras and tanks), guard should be disabled for dps specs in solo ranked arenas, defel spliced genes should be tied to a longer cooldown (such as saber ward maybe?), and the powerlode tactical for AP PTs, which forcebound exists to counter, should be replaced with a purely defensive tactical similar to Two Cloaks or Grit Teeth.

Force bound must be available for tank juggs only because only tanks must be able to save their team mates. When dps spec can both do dps and save his team mate from death with so many abilities (force bound debuff, guard, taunts) it gives this spec a huge and unfair advantage over other specs. It is NOT normal when you fight 2 juggs and 2 marauders and all 4 of them using force bound because 90% of the fight all your team can't do any dps. You get force bound, then obfuscate then force bound then another obfuscate then another force bound etc which results into 90% of all fight your team just misses lol. Don't forget about class stacking in ranked which only makes things worse.

Force bound must be locked only for tanks whose role is to defend their team mates

Dps cross-guard must be nerfed too since guarding dps aren't that squishy as they were before which results into one-sided matches where team with cross guard will always win a team with no cross guard