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Never going to win by putting in the bare minium of effort, though.

"Oh, that thing we've been dodging for over a year? Oh yeah... umm, we're gonna pretend we never said companion arcs, but have a one-night stand in the expansion. That's just as good, right?"

 

Avatar's problem was they just threw some crap together as an excuse plot for special effects.

 

 

(Just realised - the newest new regime's had nothing to say in here. Everyone who's shocked, raise your hand)

 

Hahahaha. They'll post in another year, telling us they had to leave same-sex [Flirt]s out of Makeb because of cost problems, but they really are coming in the next expansion, honest.

 

Also, Avatar was Pocahontas and Fern Gully in space. But why are we talking about Avatar? That movie was crap.

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:rolleyes:

 

Well, I have a better solution for Bioware Austin. Next time you create a game with romances in them, don't make them OGR only.

 

Win, win, doublewhammy win.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

Likely, as they said just making everyone romancable was the easiest option. So that suprises me. Of course, it would have made for a terrible storyline game, where it should be "okay this character is, this one isn't", but then they likely would have had detractors going crying about that, and wondering why there wasn't one member of their crew that was SGR, unable to accept that maybe it didn't make sense for anyone on that crew.

 

Lots of what ifs really, but then, having put it in as you mentioned is a what if, and could have made TOR bomb. Who knows. It's something a few of us want in, but we'll never know if not adding it would have kept people from leaving to begin wtih or maybe it would have gotten less people to play from the start.

 

*shrug* What ifs and more what ifs.

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Likely, as they said just making everyone romancable was the easiest option. So that suprises me. Of course, it would have made for a terrible storyline game, where it should be "okay this character is, this one isn't", but then they likely would have had detractors going crying about that, and wondering why there wasn't one member of their crew that was SGR, unable to accept that maybe it didn't make sense for anyone on that crew.

That's what I meant when I said "Employ the right people for the job."

I don't think it's a daunting task to create characters that have multi-facetted sexual orientation or one that isn't pinpointed the first place, especially in a fantasy setting. I've created some and I am by no means a professional writer. You need to stretch your imagination a little and make it work, but it's not rocket science. DA2 pulled it off. ME3 pulled it off. They have creative precedents of how it can work in their own house. It doesn't really get any easier.

 

Not saying that current writers aren't able to pull it off, some of them don't seem averse to opening up companions they've written to SGR or may have had SGR intentions for them from the start. It was a wilful decision of BW Austin to omitt SGR when the game started though and it's just showing that this has bitten them in the *** in hindsight, so much so they need the Human Rights Campaign now for advise on how to do things better in the future.

 

Lots of what ifs really, but then, having put it in as you mentioned is a what if, and could have made TOR bomb. Who knows. It's something a few of us want in, but we'll never know if not adding it would have kept people from leaving to begin wtih or maybe it would have gotten less people to play from the start.

TOR bombed anyway, due to many bad decisions that were made in the early days. If people had left the game over SGR back then, those same people will presumeably leave when Makeb comes, so saving SGR up until now hasn't really changed much in this respect. I still find it hard to believe that people would have been suprised, had SGR been in from the start, or feel duped, because EA/BW has a clear history on this. And seeing the same posters still lurking around General, those three or four that said they would leave if SGR were implemented, makes me think that much of their outrage was just hot air and no real substance.

 

On the other side, we had people in favour of SGR actually leaving, due to their frustration over how this matter was handled. Many of the original posters in this thread have not been showing up for quite a while. I've thought of quitting over this and I've had my sub lapse over this. And depending on where they take things in the future I might still leave over this.

 

Maybe some will come back, some might be turned off EA/BW games forever. That really depends on how EA/BW will handle such things in the future. That's gonna be interesting to watch.

Edited by Lent_San
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Maybe some will come back, some might be turned off EA/BW games forever. That really depends on how EA/BW will handle such things in the future. That's gonna be interesting to watch.

 

We shall see - I've been deliberately not following the progress of Dragon Age 3, because I don't want to spoiler myself. When I install and run the game I don't wanna know anything about it, not even vague opinions. But I seriously doubt there won't be same gender romances in it...

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We shall see - I've been deliberately not following the progress of Dragon Age 3, because I don't want to spoiler myself. When I install and run the game I don't wanna know anything about it, not even vague opinions. But I seriously doubt there won't be same gender romances in it...

 

That's because it's made be a different Bioware studio, one that upholds and believes in inclusion and does so as part of its standard practice, unlike this studio, which appears to be surprised by every notion ranging from "I'd like to go up the mountain" to "I'd like equal and fair treatment for all genders and sexualities, both in storyline choices and gear options in-game."

 

And I've been trying to contact Mr. Musco, Mr. Hood and Ms. Woods about some of the things that have come up recently (being forced into romances, not being able to end romances, whether or not the Makeb options will be reciprocated [Flirt]s or just the chance to get brutally shot down at every turn), but they all seem to be ignoring me. So much for increased communication. I don't want to post in a thread, because then I open myself up to the misogyny and homophobia that's rife on these boards and I just can't. Why should I have to subject myself to attacks on my person when all I want is an answer from Bioware?

Edited by Tatile
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Well, SWTOR's 'gay planet' gets a honorary mention at the EA event:

 

http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/8/4076456/electronic-arts-lgbt-full-spectrum

 

Wow, actually they're going on about it quite a bit, further down in the article, even the forum moderation gets mentioned.

 

Interesting, albeit a little defensive on BW Austin's part.

 

"All you can do is the best you can."

 

That part cracked me up. "Sometimes you can't win for losing."

 

It's as if they don't know what we want...I mean, there hasn't been multiple incantations of a thread over the last year asking for companion romances and giving suggestions on how to implement them even with post-game content.

 

No...nothing like that.

 

...and why would anyone even want companions romances? It's not like they felt the need to add a bunch of OGRA with companions or anything.

 

One night stands and flirts that go nowhere FTW!

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One night stands and flirts that go nowhere FTW!

 

Yes! Everyone knows the only real and meaningful relationships can be had between people who can have children in the traditional biological manner! Ban all inter-species romances, I say! They require technological intervention for reproduction!

 

*face palm* If Bioware seriously believe that one stands and single [Flirt] options are equivalent to the full fledged, marriage-at-the-end, committed relationships, they need their heads checked.

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Yes! Everyone knows the only real and meaningful relationships can be had between people who can have children in the traditional biological manner! Ban all inter-species romances, I say! They require technological intervention for reproduction!

 

*face palm* If Bioware seriously believe that one stands and single [Flirt] options are equivalent to the full fledged, marriage-at-the-end, committed relationships, they need their heads checked.

 

I don't recall them saying there'd be anymore to their SGR than that, when they said they would put in SGR. Did I miss a post?

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We shall see - I've been deliberately not following the progress of Dragon Age 3, because I don't want to spoiler myself. When I install and run the game I don't wanna know anything about it, not even vague opinions. But I seriously doubt there won't be same gender romances in it...

 

I don't doubt for a second DA3 will have SGR. I don't doubt the next ME will have SGR.

What I really doubt is Bioware Austin understanding how exactly they messed things up and learning from that.

Maybe they will but I'm just not sure about them being capable of that.

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I don't doubt for a second DA3 will have SGR. I don't doubt the next ME will have SGR.

What I really doubt is Bioware Austin understanding how exactly they messed things up and learning from that.

Maybe they will but I'm just not sure about them being capable of that.

 

I hope the next game in the Mass Effect universe will let me choose to play an Asari, at which point gender becomes irrelevant... Of course they appear to be women to the human beholder and all in-game explanation cannot veil that fact; while the players know they aren't supposed to have a gender, the lot of players perceives them as female and they trigger all the stimuli. If they want to limit Asari in any way they might forbid or make it seriously more difficult to choose other Asari in any way. Which of course would have the side effect that a "forbidden romance" is even sweeter for the purpose of story telling - Romeo and Juliet, Lancelot and Guinevere...

 

--- On a few different recent topics ---

I don't really mind that the romances are detached from companion characters. I think it was a mistake to do so in the first place. I've played through very few romances yet - I think Vector was the only one in fact. The single-one romance that stroke me most was one from the Imperial Agent storyline, which was limited to one planet as well. It just felt right, especially due to the events that had occurred around my agent at this point. I believe that non-companion characters should actually be full romance options. Watcher 2, Master Kiwiks... A companion who is tied to a location could in fact give you a place to come home to, so to say, if they were actual romances beyond one-night stands.

 

And if I think from my main's perspective, I don't think there could be anything sweeter than, say, a surprisingly philosophic, lovely twi'lek bar maiden, who's frustrated with all the obsession our kind incites and challenges me for being a Jedi Master as a killer machine on her own moral highground and I get to show her what the light side feels like... It doesn't have to be eternal love, it just has to be honest and a sweet memory.

 

For me its not a matter of principle - I just want some sweet romances in the game, and tying the full romances to companions in the first place.

Edited by Rabenschwinge
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TOR bombed anyway, due to many bad decisions that were made in the early days.

Questionable, retention % was middling as MMOs go and the last report of subscriber numbers before F2P had them at 'well over' 500k which put it at one of the most popular subscription MMOs. It is hard to see that things have changed much since F2P when many servers are reporting increases in population.

 

Unless your definition of tanked is 'didn't do as well as WoW' I can't see how it can be considered to have tanked. Not matched expectations certainly, but not tanked.

 

As to the topic, there has been no indication that SGRs promised with Makeb have been cancelled. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Save the hysterics for when they are warranted.

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I don't recall them saying there'd be anymore to their SGR than that, when they said they would put in SGR. Did I miss a post?

 

Without scouring previous posts and updates from BW:A I'd say it's probably arguable that you're right, and that they may never have actually said that the same sex content (that they themselves said they intended to include at launch but couldn't) was ever intended to be equal to the heterosexual content. Maybe it's a huge assumption on the behalf of everyone who's been rooting for SGRAs.

 

But if that's the case (and it's a pretty darn big 'if') they have had over a year to tell us that. We've been calling for open dialogue on the matter since before launch. One need only read the content of the 6 or so reiterations of this very thread to become very aware that equal romances are what we've been expecting. If they have no intention of providing same sex content that's equal to the opposite sex content and they've paid any attention to these forums (which they've repeatedly assured us that they do) then they've watched us making assumptions about their intentions to provide equal romantic arcs and have wilfully let us remain ignorant. That's not just negligent, it's downright cruel.

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As to the topic, there has been no indication that SGRs promised with Makeb have been cancelled. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Save the hysterics for when they are warranted.

 

I find it surprising that people might seriously be considering that the same sex content in Makeb might be cancelled. Considering how long it took them to release even that information I doubt they'd have done so without being very certain it was going in.

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I find it surprising that people might seriously be considering that the same sex content in Makeb might be cancelled. Considering how long it took them to release even that information I doubt they'd have done so without being very certain it was going in.

 

It's not many people. It's only me when I'm feeling a bit negative.

 

And yes, I am still of the mindset that Bioware are only giving one or two token [Flirt]s which will not have any reaction beyond "We don't do that here, it's a war zone" regardless of how straight [Flirt]s are handled. Bioware seem happy for me to labour under that assumption and to tell it to others, so they must have some stake in keeping that assumption going (that is, assuming they still read this thread. It's unlikely given that Mr. Gonzalez and Ms. Berryman, the only two people who ever came close to "handling" this situation, have left.)

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Without scouring previous posts and updates from BW:A I'd say it's probably arguable that you're right, and that they may never have actually said that the same sex content (that they themselves said they intended to include at launch but couldn't) was ever intended to be equal to the heterosexual content. Maybe it's a huge assumption on the behalf of everyone who's been rooting for SGRAs.

 

But if that's the case (and it's a pretty darn big 'if') they have had over a year to tell us that. We've been calling for open dialogue on the matter since before launch. One need only read the content of the 6 or so reiterations of this very thread to become very aware that equal romances are what we've been expecting. If they have no intention of providing same sex content that's equal to the opposite sex content and they've paid any attention to these forums (which they've repeatedly assured us that they do) then they've watched us making assumptions about their intentions to provide equal romantic arcs and have wilfully let us remain ignorant. That's not just negligent, it's downright cruel.

 

I see what you're saying, but to be fair, it's not really something they have to do [telling us how far they're planning to go with SGR], and for their part, likely a good way to keep a few players continuing to subscribe and possibly spend money on the cash shop.

 

I'd like some SGR content equal to the OGR romance companion storylines, though admittedly I'm not the adamant one who needs it for every class, just because.

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Unless your definition of tanked is 'didn't do as well as WoW' I can't see how it can be considered to have tanked. Not matched expectations certainly, but not tanked.

TOR was reported to have sold 2 million copies of the game when it came out but went down to 200k-500k subs in the months after that. That's what I meant when I said 'tanked'.

 

It's not many people. It's only me when I'm feeling a bit negative.

And yes, I am still of the mindset that Bioware are only giving one or two token [Flirt]s which will not have any reaction beyond "We don't do that here, it's a war zone" regardless of how straight [Flirt]s are handled.

Without knowing anything more than you do about it, I'm thinking you may be a bit pessismistic here. We know there won't be full fledged romances coming with Makeb, but I do expect there'll be at least some meaningful flirts and not just cheap one-night-stands with a dancer in a night club (no offense, night club dancers).

 

I may be wrong, but we'll see once the expansion is out.

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Without knowing anything more than you do about it, I'm thinking you may be a bit pessismistic here. We know there won't be full fledged romances coming with Makeb, but I do expect there'll be at least some meaningful flirts and not just cheap one-night-stands with a dancer in a night club (no offense, night club dancers).

 

I may be wrong, but we'll see once the expansion is out.

 

I've not been having a very optimistic week.

 

I did send a rather long message to Mr. Musco asking him various questions regarding SGR/A's both in Makeb and in the game at large. Obviously I don't expect a response - Mr. Hood isn't talking about the [Flirt]s anymore and he's the one who wrote them.

 

It's just... I don't have very high expectations for the same-sex content on Makeb largely because they aren't talking about it. You'd talk about something you're excited about, right? You'd hint at talking about it if you weren't allowed to yet, right? But they aren't doing anything like that, so that makes me wonder if they're actually proud of what they've put into Makeb or if they rushed it through just to make us shut up for a couple of months. And, honestly, given how SGRA's were handled up to Mr. Hickman mentioning it in the blog post, I can't help but feel that Bioware: Austin just doesn't care.

 

That's not to say I don't want to have really interesting moments and a planet-based story romance (but Mr. Gonzalez did say we're not getting that, just [Flirt]s), but I don't expect that to happen.

 

Edit: Here we are - SGRs are coming in Makeb. SGRs are not the same as full blown romances, which one would assume include those romances which happen with non-companion NPCs, like Sergeant Jaxo and that guy in the Inquisitor storyline.

Edited by Tatile
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I've not been having a very optimistic week.

I did send a rather long message to Mr. Musco asking him various questions regarding SGR/A's both in Makeb and in the game at large. Obviously I don't expect a response - Mr. Hood isn't talking about the [Flirt]s anymore and he's the one who wrote them.

It's just... I don't have very high expectations for the same-sex content on Makeb largely because they aren't talking about it. You'd talk about something you're excited about, right? You'd hint at talking about it if you weren't allowed to yet, right? But they aren't doing anything like that, so that makes me wonder if they're actually proud of what they've put into Makeb or if they rushed it through just to make us shut up for a couple of months. And, honestly, given how SGRA's were handled up to Mr. Hickman mentioning it in the blog post, I can't help but feel that Bioware: Austin just doesn't care.

That's not to say I don't want to have really interesting moments and a planet-based story romance (but Mr. Gonzalez did say we're not getting that, just [Flirt]s), but I don't expect that to happen.

I don't know, but I think at this point talking about SGR in Makeb would probably be spoiling it, guessing that it's not a huge part of the expansion. So I can forgive them for it.

 

I DO expect them to come forward with info though on how future (SGR) romance content in TOR will be handled.

 

I do expect changes here to both OGR and SGR implementation (no idea why, just a hunch) so I'm looking forward to more info on that, guessing they won't give us any until Makeb has at least come out.

 

Edit: Here we are - SGRs are coming in Makeb. SGRs are not the same as full blown romances, which one would assume include those romances which happen with non-companion NPCs, like Sergeant Jaxo and that guy in the Inquisitor storyline.
I remember that quote, but still my expectation would be at least fade-to-black-plus, you know? Something a little more deep than that. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time I'm disappointed after having hung my expectations too high. :rolleyes: Edited by Lent_San
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I don't know, but I think at this point talking about SGR in Makeb would probably be spoiling it, guessing that it's not a huge part of the expansion. So I can forgive them for it.

 

I DO expect them to come forward with info though on how future (SGR) romance content in TOR will be handled.

 

I do expect changes here to both OGR and SGR implementation (no idea why, just a hunch) so I'm looking forward to more info on that, guessing they won't give us any until Makeb has at least come out.

 

I mentioned both those things (in the capacity of equal amounts of options as well as people able to end romances) in two different PMs I've sent to Mr. Musco, so, assuming that he reads my message and doesn't just delete it, at least he's partially aware that there's someone who thinks so things are important.

 

And... yeah :/ We are rather far away from Makeb's release (when is Spring, anyway?) so it's unlikely they'll talk about that stuff for a while yet. Still... meh.

 

I know I shouldn't expect them to be talking about SGRA stuff, they're barely able to talk about class balancing on the PTS.

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Hmm...I gotta say I'm actually for it as a straight male, but as a straight male I don't like the idea of having the option for my character if that makes sense, because I don't feel he swings that way. Honestly what I think they should have done is make romances an optional setting. For instance, if you turned off romance of any kind, anytime there was a flirt option it would just be a different standard option instead. But you could do that with either same sex or opposite sex. That way someone playing a straight character wouldn't see that his character potentially wants to hit on those of the same sex, or vice versa even. Or you could leave on both or turn both off. It's too late for that now as it would require new voiceovers for tons of options and the like, but on the implementation of same sex I feel it's something that could be done since it hasn't been implemented yet.
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Hmm...I gotta say I'm actually for it as a straight male, but as a straight male I don't like the idea of having the option for my character if that makes sense, because I don't feel he swings that way. Honestly what I think they should have done is make romances an optional setting. For instance, if you turned off romance of any kind, anytime there was a flirt option it would just be a different standard option instead. But you could do that with either same sex or opposite sex. That way someone playing a straight character wouldn't see that his character potentially wants to hit on those of the same sex, or vice versa even. Or you could leave on both or turn both off. It's too late for that now as it would require new voiceovers for tons of options and the like, but on the implementation of same sex I feel it's something that could be done since it hasn't been implemented yet.

 

That's toggle-talk, which has been ruled discriminatory by the mods (though I get that's probably not what you're intending to convey). Remember the dialogue options (all of them, not just the flirt options) are optional, so you can simply avoid selecting anything that might initiate a romance with the same gender as the character you're playing.

 

Put another way, as a straight male you probably don't have a habit of going up to men and flirting with them. You could, nothing physically prevents you from doing so, but you don't. Same deal in-game. You could (well, in theory, once the options are implemented) but you choose not to.

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I see what you're saying, but to be fair, it's not really something they have to do [telling us how far they're planning to go with SGR], and for their part, likely a good way to keep a few players continuing to subscribe and possibly spend money on the cash shop.

 

I agree they're under no literal obligation to do so but it feels dishonest. Lying by omission, sort of thing. Letting someone believe something you know isn't true just to retain their interest is leading them on and I deeply hope that's not happening in this case.

 

I'd like some SGR content equal to the OGR romance companion storylines, though admittedly I'm not the adamant one who needs it for every class, just because.

 

I do. I think it should be equal for all classes. Not just because but due to the fact that the companions aren't real and it's far more fair to allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy the same in-class romances no matter what class they prefer to play.

 

The companion NPCs aren't real people with predetermined preferences, they're fictional characters written to perform functions within the story (just as the PCs are, though the dialogue wheel gives flexibility to their functionality). I see no justification for saying 'We're not going to let Jedi Consulars (or whatever) pursue a same sex relationship because it wouldn't make sense given the companions.' Write in new companions, rewrite existing companions, whatever needs to be done. That's what writers do, it's called revision. If they include relationships at all (which they already have) they should do it for all classes (as they have) for both OGRAs and SGRAs (which, as we know, they haven't).

 

I actually like the way the companion romances are done (though I would have liked if the romance dialogue were more prevalent after initiated - as well as a few other points). I especially like the way you can play any class and you're not barred from pursuing a relationship of some kind, even if doing so is deeply frowned upon given the context (ie. Jedi). The biggest problem with it that I see is that it's strictly and exclusively heterosexual. They were so close - if they'd included SGRAs I'd have been a happy camper.

 

But they didn't and all the ifs in the world won't change that.

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I've always figured that they should just add an account unlock for two possible same gender-romance characters, one male and one female. Available when you get your ship. Then they don't have to redo the existing dialogue for the other companions. They could even come up with a story about them being a stowaway that you just find there.
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I've always figured that they should just add an account unlock for two possible same gender-romance characters, one male and one female. Available when you get your ship. Then they don't have to redo the existing dialogue for the other companions. They could even come up with a story about them being a stowaway that you just find there.

 

I know why you have that idea and while it could be done quite well, I think it would too easily lend itself to an abusive power dynamic. I'm not saying it shouldn't be ruled out, but the story start itself seems, to me, to be a bit problematic.

 

Also, how would those post-50 get the companion? For some classes this doesn't make sense - my Phantom would have far better security than that, but the Mantis (BH ship?) seems like a leaky rust-bucket.

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I agree they're under no literal obligation to do so but it feels dishonest. Lying by omission, sort of thing. Letting someone believe something you know isn't true just to retain their interest is leading them on and I deeply hope that's not happening in this case.

 

 

 

I do. I think it should be equal for all classes. Not just because but due to the fact that the companions aren't real and it's far more fair to allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy the same in-class romances no matter what class they prefer to play.

 

The companion NPCs aren't real people with predetermined preferences, they're fictional characters written to perform functions within the story (just as the PCs are, though the dialogue wheel gives flexibility to their functionality). I see no justification for saying 'We're not going to let Jedi Consulars (or whatever) pursue a same sex relationship because it wouldn't make sense given the companions.' Write in new companions, rewrite existing companions, whatever needs to be done. That's what writers do, it's called revision. If they include relationships at all (which they already have) they should do it for all classes (as they have) for both OGRAs and SGRAs (which, as we know, they haven't).

 

I actually like the way the companion romances are done (though I would have liked if the romance dialogue were more prevalent after initiated - as well as a few other points). I especially like the way you can play any class and you're not barred from pursuing a relationship of some kind, even if doing so is deeply frowned upon given the context (ie. Jedi). The biggest problem with it that I see is that it's strictly and exclusively heterosexual. They were so close - if they'd included SGRAs I'd have been a happy camper.

 

But they didn't and all the ifs in the world won't change that.

 

I realize they;re fictional, but I also figure they didn't write the character and go "Oh. They're any way." I know when I write, I don't think to myself "This character can be anything and everything." at least for the more main characters, which the companions are.

 

That said, I'm sure there were some the writers envisioned in whatever category.

 

As for lying by omission, haven't seen that. They said SGR will come. They said it wouldn't be companions. So now it's just a matter of...

 

1) flirt options for every character you run across?

2) flirt options for select SGR?

3) flirt options just for SGR?

4) flirt options for SGR and OGR for specific NPCs?

 

Maybe Makeb's entire population is made up of clones who are only into SGR, and hence why they started cloning to reproduce!

 

Best bet would seem to be, expect just little flirt options with an NPC, and maybe get lucky with a full blown storyline romance that will end, you'll get a mail in the mailbox saying they miss you, and never hear from them again.

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