Ok, I am writing this because of a not so nice person complaining about tanks in solo ranked. He felt the need to tell me that tank gear isn't viable in ranked. I could use my 248 tank gear for my shadow, but opted for a high endurance set that gives me 165K health and about 800 alacrity and 1000 crit. I am not in "tank" gear really so he may just be crazy. I have the 248 armor and a mix of high endurance mods and enhancements with the old high endurance augments. So I get 165K health to guard you all with and I can do some damage. Not a lot of damage, something like a hard pillow in a fight, but I am a shadow tank and I don't know how to improve on that. I stun, pull, push, stun, taunt, slow, slow, slow everyone I can get to. I swap my guard to the focus of the attack and throw stuns at the healer whenever their white bar is gone. I pull the ranged into AOEs when I can, I taunt everyone on cooldown and focus taunt those hitting on someone. I toss as much damage as I can and I slow everyone down.

What else can I do in ranked to make you happy?

Ok, I am writing this because of a not so nice person complaining about tanks in solo ranked. He felt the need to tell me that tank gear isn't viable in ranked. I could use my 248 tank gear for my shadow, but opted for a high endurance set that gives me 165K health and about 800 alacrity and 1000 crit. I am not in "tank" gear really so he may just be crazy. I have the 248 armor and a mix of high endurance mods and enhancements with the old high endurance augments. So I get 165K health to guard you all with and I can do some damage. Not a lot of damage, something like a hard pillow in a fight, but I am a shadow tank and I don't know how to improve on that. I stun, pull, push, stun, taunt, slow, slow, slow everyone I can get to. I swap my guard to the focus of the attack and throw stuns at the healer whenever their white bar is gone. I pull the ranged into AOEs when I can, I taunt everyone on cooldown and focus taunt those hitting on someone. I toss as much damage as I can and I slow everyone down.

 

What else can I do in ranked to make you happy?

Find a decent healer in a match, become friends with him, and get in voice chat. Form your own group and practice a lot. If you're going to allow random people's toxic **** in yolos to impact your game play you'll uninstall and become a serial killer in short order.

Tanks in ranked are capable of outdps'ing one or two worst performing dpsers. IF you did everything well apart from dps, your dps did their part, healer healed proper and u lost then it is on you for not dpsing. Sin has a good dps potential so class is not an excuse, like. It doesn't have the aoe of pt and burst of jug but it still capable of doing good amount of damage. Stacking any defensive stats is pointless so are the b mods. Just equip yourself with what you would as dps and use a shield gen + set bonus. Go to regs and start practicing dpsing. Yeah, play tank as if you were a dps and when in ranked just combine that with tanking job.

This advice, while currently viable, might have a short expiration date. 5.9 is supposedly going to nerf skanking...

Stack defense an absorb. It’s currently broken. If you stack defense an shield triggers you can effectively dodge a shielded mitigation. I have 47% def 53 shield an 60 absorb without procs still manage 1mill damage an over 1mill prot every game in ranked

NO. He is asking about ranked PvP. Not face tanking a PvE boss.

To the op: Having 165k HP is Great for face tanking bosses. However, that means you would have sacrificed too much in the expense of damage output. An effective PvP tank is required to do everything you said you do but and still deal significant damage.

Still, with your kind of build , if you play it well can still win games.. by swapping guard at "100 mph". Easier said than done of course. Way to make use of that extra beef., otherwise all that beeffyness goes to waste.

I hope that helps.

NO. He is asking about ranked PvP. Not face tanking a PvE boss.

 

To the op: Having 165k HP is Great for face tanking bosses. However, that means you would have sacrificed too much in the expense of damage output. An effective PvP tank is required to do everything you said you do but and still deal significant damage.

 

Still, with your kind of build , if you play it well can still win games.. by swapping guard at "100 mph". Easier said than done of course. Way to make use of that extra beef., otherwise all that beeffyness goes to waste.

 

I hope that helps.

Also without a healer, your extra HP doesn't do nearly as much for your team.

If you want to play a tank in solo ranked play with DPS gear and a mostly DPS mindset, use guard conservatively and strategically (so for example if you can save a teammate for a bit without sacrificing too much for yourself, or if you have a teammate with good offheals), and you can do well. Tank gear's only purpose in PvP would be if you queue with a dedicated healer and are very adept at guard swapping, and even then you'll still typically contribute more to your team in DPS gear.

Also why do people call tanks in DPS gear skanks? The original term meant DPS specs in a tank stance, tanks have always used DPS gear in this game since launch, that's not a new thing. The fact they are doing more damage now is new, but a lot of that is tied to all tanks having very good AOE now, I think if you nerfed their AOE you'd see tank damage drop by a decent amount (preferably only in PvP so they can still gather adds well in PvE).

What I'd do is remove Crushing Blow, Wither and the new flamethrower attack for PT (the name escapes me) AOE effect only specifically to PvP. Those attacks being AOE adds a ton of damage for those classes. You can't really change shielding/defense to be more useful in PvP, because tanks already have really good survivability as is and if they were any better, any reg match with a tank/healer, the tank would never die. And if you directly nerf tank damage they will be awful to play with in PvE especially for any kind of solo content, so you'll go from not many wanting to play a tank to nobody wanting to play a tank.

So yeah, just change a couple tank abilities to not have an AOE effect in PvP scenarios, and I think you'd solve the majority of the problem. Jugg tanks would still be bursty but without being able to hit multiple targets they couldn't pressure you nearly as hard, and they are the easiest tank to kite, and PT and Sin tanks would build up a lot less pressure with AOE damage reduced.

What I'd do is remove Crushing Blow, Wither and the new flamethrower attack for PT (the name escapes me) AOE effect only specifically to PvP. Those attacks being AOE adds a ton of damage for those classes. You can't really change shielding/defense to be more useful in PvP, because tanks already have really good survivability as is and if they were any better, any reg match with a tank/healer, the tank would never die. And if you directly nerf tank damage they will be awful to play with in PvE especially for any kind of solo content, so you'll go from not many wanting to play a tank to nobody wanting to play a tank.

 

So yeah, just change a couple tank abilities to not have an AOE effect in PvP scenarios, and I think you'd solve the majority of the problem. Jugg tanks would still be bursty but without being able to hit multiple targets they couldn't pressure you nearly as hard, and they are the easiest tank to kite, and PT and Sin tanks would build up a lot less pressure with AOE damage reduced.

A. how do you change this for PvP and not Pve?

B. guardian slash has been an aoe (assuming you proc it with warding strike) since like forever.

C. Other than the upgrade in damage for the new boss/player levels, I don't remember a buff to any tank dps in 5.0. For something to be a buff it must be a relative buff, not an oh bigger numbers... but everyone has bigger numbers! Scenario

The single best way to prevent PVP skanking is to make tank gear more obviously meaningful. I'd eat a dps reduction if it meant survivability. That is after all the point of tanking.

A. how do you change this for PvP and not Pve?

B. guardian slash has been an aoe (assuming you proc it with warding strike) since like forever.

C. Other than the upgrade in damage for the new boss/player levels, I don't remember a buff to any tank dps in 5.0. For something to be a buff it must be a relative buff, not an oh bigger numbers... but everyone has bigger numbers! Scenario

 

The single best way to prevent PVP skanking is to make tank gear more obviously meaningful. I'd eat a dps reduction if it meant survivability. That is after all the point of tanking.

Or set tank ability damage to fixed damage and threat values regardless of what gear they're using... problem solved.

A. how do you change this for PvP and not Pve?

B. guardian slash has been an aoe (assuming you proc it with warding strike) since like forever.

C. Other than the upgrade in damage for the new boss/player levels, I don't remember a buff to any tank dps in 5.0. For something to be a buff it must be a relative buff, not an oh bigger numbers... but everyone has bigger numbers! Scenario

 

The single best way to prevent PVP skanking is to make tank gear more obviously meaningful. I'd eat a dps reduction if it meant survivability. That is after all the point of tanking.

A. How do you make guard work differently in PvE and PvP? Same way.

B. Only since 1.2, when its damage was drastically nerfed, then buffed in 2.0. It was originally single target.

C. Smash I'm fairly sure got a very large damage boost in the Jugg tank tree, the Crushing Blow damage modifier I believe increased from 4.0 to 5.0 (could be mistaken there), Chilling Scream was broken for a while before it was fixed, Firestorm's damage got buffed, PT's got other new AOE tools (I missed 5.0 so not totally up to date on those), the only class that didn't get major AOE buffs was tank Sins, and they're seen as the least broken, although they did get a buff to Discharge in the form of a proc so now it deals good damage as well.

Making tank gear more meaningful = completely changing the way PvP has been played since launch, tanks already have the longest ttk of any class, any longer and regs will see matches where no node can ever be capped since tanks take too long to kill, it might actually improve group ranked somewhat, not sure of the impact on solo ranked.

A. How do you make guard work differently in PvE and PvP? Same way.

B. Only since 1.2, when its damage was drastically nerfed, then buffed in 2.0. It was originally single target.

C. Smash I'm fairly sure got a very large damage boost in the Jugg tank tree, the Crushing Blow damage modifier I believe increased from 4.0 to 5.0 (could be mistaken there), Chilling Scream was broken for a while before it was fixed, Firestorm's damage got buffed, PT's got other new AOE tools (I missed 5.0 so not totally up to date on those), the only class that didn't get major AOE buffs was tank Sins, and they're seen as the least broken, although they did get a buff to Discharge in the form of a proc so now it deals good damage as well.

 

Making tank gear more meaningful = completely changing the way PvP has been played since launch, tanks already have the longest ttk of any class, any longer and regs will see matches where no node can ever be capped since tanks take too long to kill, it might actually improve group ranked somewhat, not sure of the impact on solo ranked.

A. That's not an answer...

B. since 2.0 is still literal years

C.im digging through old patch notes now. Nothing with the release of 5.0 though. The freezing force utility was not a tank thing and it's been nerfed to the point where I don't even bother taking it for PvP as a tank any more.

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/11292016/game-update-5.0-knights-eternal-throne-early-access

On the PT and sin thing I didn't originally mention them because I don't play them as much.

A. That's not an answer...

B. since 2.0 is still literal years

C.im digging through old patch notes now. Nothing with the release of 5.0 though. The freezing force utility was not a tank thing and it's been nerfed to the point where I don't even bother taking it for PvP as a tank any more.

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/11292016/game-update-5.0-knights-eternal-throne-early-access

On the PT and sin thing I didn't originally mention them because I don't play them as much.

A. Yes it is. Guard functions differently in PvP than it does in PvE, that's a fact. They do this through code. There's no reason they can't do the same with other abilities.

B. It doesn't matter how long its been, is Crushing Blow AOE actually a needed thing in PvP? You do know WHY it was made to be an AOE attack in the first place right? Because at the time, Juggs had by far the weakest AOE toolkit of all the tanks in PvE, it had nothing to do with PvP.

C. The damage modifier for Crushing Blow wouldn't be listed in patch notes since its more of an under the hood thing, but I can tell you it did go up in 5.0, Furious Strike used to do more (I would compare via tooltip while reading through the trees in the same gear). Smash damage went up for tanks in 4.0 but persisted through to 5.0, that being said Jugg tank in DPS gear was still extremely powerful in the 4.x meta as well.

A. Yes it is. Guard functions differently in PvP than it does in PvE, that's a fact. They do this through code. There's no reason they can't do the same with other abilities.

B. It doesn't matter how long its been, is Crushing Blow AOE actually a needed thing in PvP? You do know WHY it was made to be an AOE attack in the first place right? Because at the time, Juggs had by far the weakest AOE toolkit of all the tanks in PvE, it had nothing to do with PvP.

C. The damage modifier for Crushing Blow wouldn't be listed in patch notes since its more of an under the hood thing, but I can tell you it did go up in 5.0, Furious Strike used to do more (I would compare via tooltip while reading through the trees in the same gear). Smash damage went up for tanks in 4.0 but persisted through to 5.0, that being said Jugg tank in DPS gear was still extremely powerful in the 4.x meta as well.

A. See that's an answer.

B. yes i did know that since I've been playing it since then.

C. I've been playing guardian tank since pre-2.0 as well (granted started PVP in 3.0). So I think I'd notice some massive change as well. For instance the ninja nerf to focused defense self heals.

Also as you've said, all tanks have basically always run dps gear for PvP. So why shouldn't the fix address the root cause?

Based on the forums it appears that all tanks do 7-8K DPS so if you aren’t”t doing that don”t Q

I must really suck then. Despite my 4 mill protection and no deaths.

A. See that's an answer.

B. yes i did know that since I've been playing it since then.

C. I've been playing guardian tank since pre-2.0 as well (granted started PVP in 3.0). So I think I'd notice some massive change as well. For instance the ninja nerf to focused defense self heals.

 

Also as you've said, all tanks have basically always run dps gear for PvP. So why shouldn't the fix address the root cause?

C. Focused Defense was never actually ninja nerfed, the issue was the multiplier used wasn't increased to correspond with larger HP pools in the 4.0 to 5.0 transition. Just poor math on the devs part.

As for tanks in DPS gear, it was never actually an issue before besides the fact that they did it. It didn't unbalance PvP, they still performed about how they should, being a bit tankier, not doing too much damage, and holding the utility of extra stuns, guard and survivability. The issue which has become exacerbated in 5.0 is tanks in DPS gear having the capability to deal damage comparable to DPS classes, and that's directly tied to their AOE potential for the most part.

C. Focused Defense was never actually ninja nerfed, the issue was the multiplier used wasn't increased to correspond with larger HP pools.

 

As for tanks in DPS gear, it was never actually an issue before besides the fact that they did it. It didn't unbalance PvP, they still performed about how they should, being a bit tankier, not doing too much damage, and holding the utility of extra stuns, guard and survivability. The issue which has become exacerbated in 5.0 is tanks in DPS gear having the capability to deal damage comparable to DPS classes, and that's directly tied to their AOE potential for the most part.

That's either a ninja nerf or stupidity take your pick. If adjusting a number up is a buff, adjusting it down is a nerf. It goes both ways.

And in 5.0 we also have dps classes that can survive almost as well as a tank. I just prefer to address the root cause of skanking rather than throwing around unnecessary nerfs. I also haven't seen these mystical 8k dps numbers from my skank. Maybe I'm too busy actively guarding my team or something.

That's either a ninja nerf or stupidity take your pick. If adjusting a number up is a buff, adjusting it down is a nerf. It goes both ways.

 

And in 5.0 we also have dps classes that can survive almost as well as a tank. I just prefer to address the root cause of skanking rather than throwing around unnecessary nerfs. I also haven't seen these mystical 8k dps numbers from my skank. Maybe I'm too busy actively guarding my team or something.

What I'm saying is not that it was a nerf or buff but pure dev laziness, they added HP to classes and just never tweaked the Focused Defense formula. Of course when you cut the dev team as much as they have and put all your resources towards the cartel market, that's not exactly surprising.

What we should be addressing is balance, first and foremost. Balance is tilted right now such that tanks have great damage potential and great survivability, no DPS class has the survivability of a tank, the closest is merc and that's only when cooldowns are available (which is admittedly too often). Mara as well if you count Ruthless Aggressor.

Tank DPS is only great when you factor in AOE, they will always fall to a regular DPS in single target damage, so that to me is the easiest way to fix this without dramatically reworking game systems.

This is kind of wrong, Jugg tank in the short term can actually outburst Jugg DPS right now, especially Vengeance. Crushing Blow can hit 25k, which isn't as hard as Furious Strike which can see 30k+, but they also get a proc'd Retaliation which is off the GCD and can crit for around 12k itself, that's 37k damage in 1 GCD, more than your typical Ambush from a Sniper.

Tank DPS is only great when you factor in AOE, they will always fall to a regular DPS in single target damage, so that to me is the easiest way to fix this without dramatically reworking game systems.

Pick a position and stick with it please, your flip-flopping is about to give me a stroke.

What I'm saying is not that it was a nerf or buff but pure dev laziness, they added HP to classes and just never tweaked the Focused Defense formula. Of course when you cut the dev team as much as they have and put all your resources towards the cartel market, that's not exactly surprising.

 

What we should be addressing is balance, first and foremost. Balance is tilted right now such that tanks have great damage potential and great survivability, no DPS class has the survivability of a tank, the closest is merc and that's only when cooldowns are available (which is admittedly too often).

 

Tank DPS is only great when you factor in AOE, they will always fall to a regular DPS in single target damage, so that to me is the easiest way to fix this without dramatically reworking game systems.

No dps class should have survivability even remotely close to a tank otherwise what's the point tanking? I also think tanks shouldn't have the damage potential they do now, I just want the root cause fixed rather than throwing down the nerf hammer.

Also, vigi has far and away better aoe potential than my tank. It also can't survive 6 people to do it. I'm not saying it should I'm saying that's why.

Pick a position and stick with it please, your flip-flopping is about to give me a stroke.

Crushing Blow is great burst. However, it being great burst AND AOE is too powerful, its like 2.0 Smash spec. That's my position.

Crushing Blow is great burst. However, it being great burst AND AOE is too powerful, its like 2.0 Smash spec. That's my position.

1 GCD that requires setup for Aoe use from an ability that does little damage, compared to an entire burst window from an actual dps

No dps class should have survivability even remotely close to a tank otherwise what's the point tanking? I also think tanks shouldn't have the damage potential they do now, I just want the root cause fixed rather than throwing down the nerf hammer.

 

Also, vigi has far and away better aoe potential than my tank. It also can't survive 6 people to do it. I'm not saying it should I'm saying that's why.

I take it you dont play Fury Marauder or a Merc.... no dps compares to tank survivability.... what game are you playing

1 GCD that requires setup for Aoe use from an ability that does little damage, compared to an entire burst window from an actual dps

As a Jugg main this is either disingenuous or just ignorance, Aegis Assault buff lasts 20 seconds, you can easily set it up and keep it going at anytime and its maintained just by doing your rotation.