So I have come to the conclusion that Sage and Commando are really the two classes that fit my playstyle. I've tried out Shadow and Smuggler, but I am ranged DPS at heart - and want so healing.

I have played my Sage to 32, and my Commando just made 32.

I will say that initially Commando seemed to be a bit better DPS, and the armor actually felt like it provided more protection. But I am starting to think that Force Armor really works better than Heavy armor when taking on tough mobs. DPSwise it feels like Commando is still harder hitting.

But overall I have noticed that I gave up on some Heroic 4 missions on my Commando that I was able to do on my Sage - so that makes me ask myself why. And I am really not sure.

What are your guys thoughts on DPS Sage vs DPS Commando?

Thanks,

Mal

Gunnery Commando & TK Sage are extremely similar.

Full Auto is almost identical to TK Throw, & both specs have a proc from an instant cast to end the CD on their channeled damage. With TK it channels faster, with Gunnery it does more damage in the same time frame.

TK Sage relies on refreshing the debuff from a DoT while Gunnery Commando relies on refreshing the armor debuff from Grav Round. The Commando debuff is arguably better because it makes the target take more damage from the entire party.

The Gunnery spec builds stacks of buff to spend on a burst of damage. TK spec builds stacks of buff to increase energy regen, and another talent provides an alacrity proc that temporarily increases DPS output.

Gunnery has an abundance of AOE on longish CDs ~ TK has few AOE abilities, but 1 has a very short CD.

The defensive CD on both classes mitigates a similar amount of damage over the length the Commando CD.

Both Classes have a nearly identical set of other abilities

Where they are more different is Force Potency/ Tech Override & the emergency regen mechanics. The TK spec shouldn't ever need to use Noble Sac. Force Potency just about forces 2 crits. Tech Override simply makes a long cast into an instant. Commando must make uses it's emergency regen mechanic to put out an optimal burst, but at a lower frequency than the smaller burst of a TK Sage.

Commando is more vulnerable in melee because it lacks Force speed as a gap opener. The Knockback of Commandos is better ~ but it's not enough to compensate. The class used to have 2 knockbacks, and that was better balanced, but 1 was converted to a root in an attempt to improve PvP.

Someone else will have to compare & contrast the Assault & Balance specs... No experience here.

Having four lvl 50s, I can honestly say it just depends entirely on what you want to do and how you want to do it. All of the DPS specs can put out enough damage to clear anything in the game, although some are obviously easier than others. I thought Commando was rather boring. The animations weren't spectacular and you spend so much time with one or two skills. It got old for me pretty quickly. My Sage is still my favorite character. I love the mobility, the animations, and the way the class plays in ops.

I use a balance build. It is heavy on damage over time abilities with spammable TK throw as a filler and Death Field and Mind Crush as your low-cooldown nukes. I feel like I have some versatility that other specs don't. In multi-boss fights, you can throw your damage over time abilities on both bosses, which ramps up your DPS quite a bit. Great sustained damage, not quite as bursty as TK. My suggestion to help burst in PvE is to go biochem and get a Rakata Attack Adrenal. The cooldown is 3 minutes. The cooldown on Force Potency is a minute and a half. So you can time it where you pop the power adrenal for every other force potency. You use the two auto-crits on TK throw (every tick crits, does massive damage) and Death Field (6k-plus crits in top-level PvE gear). If you use the adrenal with Force Potency, you can put out quite a lot of damage in 15 seconds. This is especially nice on burn phases like Kephess' walker in EC.

Thanks guys!

Mal

I've never been seen a commando pull aggro in a raid. I do it on sage/sorc all the time.

Commando is the worst AC in PvP.

That's what I think. Oh, I also find commando to be incredibly boring to play and too static for my taste.

I've never been seen a commando pull aggro in a raid. I do it on sage/sorc all the time.

 

Commando is the worst AC in PvP.

 

That's what I think. Oh, I also find commando to be incredibly boring to play and too static for my taste.

While I can't argue with the fact of a super-simple rotation, a properly played Commando can be a dps beast.

When I'm in TfB/EC I have to be careful about waiting for the tank to build threat at start, and use Diversion on cd or I will inevitably pull aggro, even when guarded.

I've never been seen a commando pull aggro in a raid. I do it on sage/sorc all the time.

This says more about your tanks rather than your dps. If your dps has to burn GCDs to lower threat then your tanks aren't doing something correctly.

Gunnery Commando & TK Sage are extremely similar.

Come again? Priority queue for a gunnery commando:

• High Impact Bolt + Demo Round (if 5 stacks grav vortex)
  
• Full Auto
  
• Grav Round (if <5 stacks charged barrel)
  
• Charged Bolts
  

Compare that to the priority queue for a TK sage:

• Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection expiring)
  
• Telekinetic Wave (if >8.5s since Tidal Force)
  
• Turbulence (if Weaken Mind >1.8s remaining)
  
• Mind Crush
  
• Weaken Mind (if not ticking)
  
• Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection && Tidal Force && Recklessness)
  
• Telekinetic Wave (if Tidal Force)
  
• Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection)
  
• Disturbance
  
• Project (if moving)
  

That…doesn't look even remotely similar. They really are radically different classes. The buffs and procs that a TK sage has to watch for are staggeringly complex, relative to the four-button simplicity of a commando. Honestly, I'm not sure where this comparison comes from.

Coming back to the OP… Gunnery Commandos do more DPS than TK sages when ideally played. That's just how the classes are balanced right now. An ideally played TK sage in top-tier gear can scrape just above 1900 DPS if they get lucky with their crits. An ideally played gunnery commando in top-tier gear can easily best 2k DPS, *especially* if they get lucky crits. In fact, gunnery commandos are one of the best endgame DPS classes, they just tend to be under-valued because the class attracts so many faceroll button mashers. When properly played, they are extremely strong. They are still bested by sentinels, gunslingers and vanguards, but not much else.

With that said, I greatly prefer the playstyle of TK. It's not as much DPS, but I have to put a lot more thought and effort into it. Also, the AoE in TK is second to none. This is particularly valuable in some fights (e.g. Nightmare Kephess). While the DPS is lower, it's not lower by enough to raise any sort of viability concerns. My main progression group runs with a DPS sage. Our other three DPS are a gunnery commando, an assault vanguard and a watchman sentinel. While the sage is almost never top DPS, he certainly holds his own.

So I have come to the conclusion that Sage and Commando are really the two classes that fit my playstyle. I've tried out Shadow and Smuggler, but I am ranged DPS at heart - and want so healing.

 

I have played my Sage to 32, and my Commando just made 32.

 

I will say that initially Commando seemed to be a bit better DPS, and the armor actually felt like it provided more protection. But I am starting to think that Force Armor really works better than Heavy armor when taking on tough mobs. DPSwise it feels like Commando is still harder hitting.

 

But overall I have noticed that I gave up on some Heroic 4 missions on my Commando that I was able to do on my Sage - so that makes me ask myself why. And I am really not sure.

 

What are your guys thoughts on DPS Sage vs DPS Commando?

 

Thanks,

Mal

This may not be what you're looking for, but if you plan on doing any PvP, stick with the Sage.

This says more about your tanks rather than your dps. If your dps has to burn GCDs to lower threat then your tanks aren't doing something correctly.

I think you're confused about threat dumps.

They are off the gcd. As long as you don't use one in the middle of a channeled cast, it will have no affect on a dps' rotation/priority list.

I think you're confused about threat dumps.

 

They are off the gcd. As long as you don't use one in the middle of a channeled cast, it will have no affect on a dps' rotation/priority list.

There is presently a bug with the mercenary threat dump which causes it to consume a GCD. This may be where his misconception is stemming from. No other threat dump has this problem.

Let me fix that for ya.....

 

Come again? Priority queue for a gunnery commando:

• Full Auto (if Curtain of Fire expiring)
  
• High Impact Bolt (if <4.5 seconds since Full Auto)
  
• Demo Round (if 5 stack of Gravity Vortex >4s remaining & High Impact Bolt on CD)
  
• Charged Bolts (if >4.5s since Curtain of Fire)
  
• Grav Round (if Gravity Vortex <3s remaining or <5 stack of Gravity Vortex or Charged Barrel)
  
• Full Auto (if Curtain of Fire && 5 stack of Gravity Vortex && Tech Overide && 30 stack of Combat Support Cell ~ if that's how you roll )
  
• High Impact Bolt (if 5 stack of Charged Barrel)
  
• Full Auto (if Curtain of Fire)
  
• Hail of Bolts/ Explosive Round/ Plasma Grenade/ Pulse Cannon (Reserve Powercell on CD)
  
• Hammer Shot/ Sticky Grenade (if moving or maintaining a 30 stack of Combat Support Cell)
  

 

Compare that to the priority queue for a TK sage:

 

• Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection expiring)
  
• Telekinetic Wave (if >8.5s since Tidal Force)
  
• Turbulence (if Weaken Mind >1.8s remaining)
  
• Mind Crush
  
• Weaken Mind (if not ticking)
  
• Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection && Tidal Force && Force Potency)
  
• Telekinetic Wave (if Tidal Force)
  
• Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection)
  
• Disturbance( if Concentration <2s remaining or < 3 stack of Concentration, x2 if <8.5s since Psychic Projection)
  
• Project (if moving)
  

 

That…doesn't look even remotely similar. They really are radically different classes. The buffs and procs that a TK sage has to watch for are staggeringly complex, relative to the four-button simplicity of a commando. Honestly, I'm not sure where this comparison comes from.

 

That...doesn't look...............................................................radically different............ The buffs and procs that a TK sage has to watch......are....................complex, just like.................................................a commando. Honestly, I see.......where this comparison comes from.

The biggest differences are...

1. The proc from the rotation filling Disturbance can create the force needed for the mobile Project casts, and the AoE Force Wave is part of the single target rotation. While the trooper relies on the ammo saved with mobile Hammer Shot casts to create the ammo for the rotation filling AoE, and the normal rotation is purely single target abilities. Gunnery always has something to cast while moving, while TK Sage may not.

2. Gravity Vortex and Weaken mind both "tick" for 15 seconds. But Grav Round is a 2 second cast while Weaken mind is a mobile instant. Gunnery doesn't get a instant cast proc from Curtain of Fire for Full Auto ~ instead it relies on all of it's stacks being maintained to achieve optimal performance. This makes Gunnery performance more vulnerable to interrupts and cleanses than TK Sage. It takes Gunnery 4.5s of turret casting to build a 5 stack of Gravity Vortex, but only 1.5s of a mobile instant for TK Sage to get Weaken Mind ticking again.

3. High Impact Bolt/ Grav Round fit into the Gunnery steady state rotation backward from TK Wave/ Weaken Mind.

Let me fix that for ya.....

I don't play gunnery spec on any of my main characters (my commando is a healer), but things like this look highly suspicious to me:

Charged Bolts (if >4.5s since Curtain of Fire)

That…doesn't make any sense. CB and GR have the same proc chance (despite superstition to the contrary on the part of most commandos). CB isn't a flurry attack. Mathematically, the correct CB priority is to completely replace GR when you already have 5 stacks of CB and you need another spam attack, since CB does more damage than GR. The rest of your priority queue is suspicious as well, since CoF lasts long enough to sustain a 3 second HiB + DR, and FA is the next highest in priority, meaning that you will *never* see the proc "about to expire".

Also…

…maintaining a 30 stack of Combat Support Cell)

…uh? If you're not using Armor-piercing Cell, you're doing it wrong. You will be ammo starved and your DPS will be *significantly* lower than it should be.

More importantly…

Disturbance( if Concentration <2s remaining or < 3 stack of Concentration, x2 if <8.5s since Psychic Projection)

This is just wrong. Have you actually played TK? Disturbance is the main spam ability. In fact, your "fixed" priority queue for TK is somewhat hilarious since it leaves several GCDs where the sage has *nothing* to do.

The main reason to spam Disturbance has nothing to do with Concentration, which is actually a comparatively minor proc given the other things which improve mana management. As for Psychic Projection, that is a proc from Weaken Mind, not from Disturbance. Disturbance is ALL about Tidal Wave and Tremors. Tremors is especially important, but also very fiddly since Disturbance only has a 30% chance to even refresh the buff. Tremors does last for 30 seconds, but the consequences for allowing it to drop off are so severe that Disturbance spam (when nothing else obvious is up) tends to be the requisite approach. There are so many other abilities *above* Disturbance in priority that Tremors can sometimes drop even when spamming Disturbance as much as time allows.

The biggest differences are...

 

1. The proc from the rotation filling Disturbance can create the force needed for the mobile Project casts, and the AoE Force Wave is part of the single target rotation. While the trooper relies on the ammo saved with mobile Hammer Shot casts to create the ammo for the rotation filling AoE, and the normal rotation is purely single target abilities. Gunnery always has something to cast while moving, while TK Sage may not.

Actually, "creating the force" is something a TK sage *never* cares about. And by "never" I mean absolutely never. You can mobile Project to your heart's content in TK without breaking a sweat. This is perhaps the most glaring difference between the specs: TK has effectively no force management whatsoever. Energy is just…always there. Compare that to the commando, which has a very effort-intensive energy mechanic.

As for your rotation filling AoE, I didn't comment about this in your priority queue, but it is wrong. Plasma Grenade is arguably very strong as a filler (when above 5 stacks of CB), but only if you have Reserve Powercell. Without RPC, your ammo will drop like a stone, and none of the cheaper AoEs (which are still quite expensive) are worthwhile in the single-target rotation.

2. Gravity Vortex and Weaken mind both "tick" for 15 seconds.

Again, you do not appear to have ever played the TK spec. Weaken Mind is a 21 second DoT (Disturb Mind talent, second tier).

But Grav Round is a 2 second cast while Weaken mind is a mobile instant.

Grav Round is a 1.5 second cast without the Alacrity proc.

Gunnery doesn't get a instant cast proc from Curtain of Fire for Full Auto ~ instead it relies on all of it's stacks being maintained to achieve optimal performance. This makes Gunnery performance more vulnerable to interrupts and cleanses than TK Sage.

Grav Round stacks cannot be cleansed.

It takes Gunnery 4.5s of turret casting to build a 5 stack of Gravity Vortex, but only 1.5s of a mobile instant for TK Sage to get Weaken Mind ticking again.

Even still, it is a *massive* loss in DPS to do so. Weaken Mind is a very low-damage ability, meaning that wasting a GCD on its application is a pretty significant hit. If I'm going up against a TK sage on a healer, I cleanse like a maniac, especially if I see them casting Turbulence.

3. High Impact Bolt/ Grav Round fit into the Gunnery steady state rotation backward from TK Wave/ Weaken Mind.

I don't know what this means…

In any case, it really doesn't look like you actually know the TK spec, and there are a lot of things that you're saying about gunnery commandos which make absolutely no sense. The analogy you're trying to force between the two trees just isn't there. They don't play the same, they don't feel the same, and their abilities don't mirror in any way whatsoever.

They are both ranged DPS. There are similarities, but if they were that comparable, they would be mirror classes. They aren't. Play whichever one you find more fun.

I'd say they're both great fun my Gunnery dude makes all the difference in a raid DPS-wise (just sit back and enjoy the massive numbers;)), never PvPed on it though. Sage I'm just lvling (hybrid based off balance+3rd tier talent in telekinetics, good guide on this build somewhere in these threads), lvl 34 atm and he's a blast:) in WZs always 1st/2nd place on DPS and kills - around 350-400k and 25-40 kills. So they're both very cool