Game stats are N-canon yes, so..it's rather pointless to use them, they are considered game mechanics.

 

 

 

Even without all that...come on really Beni? We should take what they have actual done and compare it within actual novels/comics and so forth, not rely on RPG dice stats or whatever you wanna call em.

 

Couldn't be more agreed.

No need to get involved in DICE ROLL and NUMBERS stuff. Just use information that is relevant for evaluation of powers like I did. In short, keep the evaluation process simple.

 

We don't need to figure out the capabilities of lets say random Jedi Master with this kind of information. We have canon information to help us pick candidates for topics like these and we can just use information with which we can know who is better then who in which respect.

 

My point with the numbers is a Master is a Master for a reason they are capable of feats that would be known as Heroic lvl feats and thats what being a master means. If you can make it onto a Most powerful list you should be capable of Heroic Level feats on all three aspects of the Force, thus noting that a Sith or a Jedi can do heroic level Force feats is just as relevant as the discussions we were having before since everyone on these lists should be capable of heroic level feats.

I did not stated that those Dark Council members destroyed the Citadel with a simple wave of a hand.

 

Those two Dark Council members may have inflicted massive damage to the foundations of the building with their powers while dueling each other which eventually led to collapse of the building. I understand the "powerbases factor" but the issue in this particular case is that other Dark Council members also got involved in this event and killed the original two responsible for destruction of the building, this would not have been possible in presence of "army level powerbases" of the Dark Council members responsible for destruction otherwise some of the other Dark Council members could have ended up dead too during this event. This is not unbelievable development in the light of events featuring Bane and Exal Kressh.

 

 

• Bane managed to collapse a building in Lehon or portion of it by shattering its foundations with a single powerful wave of energy.
   
  
• A confrontation between Exal Kressh and Thanaton onboard a space station ended with the destruction of the gigantic structure, this duel was also very violent and no powerbases were involved from either side.
  

 

I am not asserting that feats of such magnitude are easy to pull off, they are obviously not. My intended point is that Sith Emperor is even more powerful then such powerhouses and can relatively do BETTER in the matters of destroying the surroundings, if in their shoes.

 

 

A positive step nonetheless.

 

 

I recall that when Sidious got knocked out on the Death Star, it took him a year to acquire a suitable host to posses and this too with the aid of other Sith sprits. Afterwards, it took him 5 additional years to recover his strength.

 

 

I am not exaggerating! You can check some information details here.

 

 

Mara collapsed some part of the ceiling upon him? This is the trap, right? This is not a trap, she used her powers to undermine her adversary to make the best use of her surroundings to her advantage like any smart individual would do. I recall that Malgus once found himself in similar situation and he did well even though he was not in good shape so its not like Caedus pulled off something unique in this clash (I do accept the part that an ordinary Force-user would have got punked in this duel but Caedus was not much like Malgus).

 

More importantly, you are making a serious miscalculation about capabilities of Emperor in this respect. I don't think that Mara can undermine Emperor even in this setting, Emperor can easily prevent any attempt to crush him beneath the debris and proceed to punk opposition with his powers, he also have the option to break Mara with just his mental powers and this feat doesn't requires any setting to work. Keep in mind that Emperor is lot more battle-tested then both Caedus and Mara, possibly even combined. This is the guy who can defeat Revan, Meetra and Scourge simultaneously in close-range combat situation, think wisely when you make an assumption.

 

 

Caedus's effectiveness not just depends upon his own skills but also on the setting of the duel and decisions of his opposition. If opposition made a poor judgment, confrontation is not likely to end well against such a powerful Force-user.

 

Sith Emperor is pure power duelist, he just eliminates or forces any kind of opposition to submission with a range of overwhelming powers that are not setting dependent. This is swift and decisive approach to end a conflict before it gets prolonged with martial actions and such. Emperor had wisely honed his talents in this manner.

 

Put Caedus in shoes of Emperor and I don't think he would have lasted as long or pulled off his feats. This is not because that Caedus is not talented all that but he doesn't have skills and power to replicate Emperor. In-fact, the Jedi Strike Team that attempted to arrest Emperor would have succeeded against majority of foes including Caedus in the Emperor's shoes. This makes sense because Caedus' combative tactics would have favored that Strike Team's approach towards combat and this Strike Team was made up of most powerful Jedi of that era with Hero of Tython being among the most powerful Force-users of the mythos himself.

 

 

I have not stated that Luke was inferior duelist but that this was also a strong point of Caedus and this is why this duel ended up in a brutal brawl. Luke had the options to punk Caedus with his Force powers but for some odd reason chose not to.

 

 

Correctiion: Luke, in lore, is not the most powerful Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. This is fanon assumption. I know that whole chosen one stuff but actual canon revelations concerning Luke are as follows:

 

"Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, was being accused for the millions of deaths the second civil war supplied?"

 

"Luke Skywalker is still the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. I think we should assume he has a plan."

 

"...but rather a fight with one of the most powerful Jedi in history"

 

This being said, duel between Luke and Caedus did not end up with Luke resorting to his Force powers to overwhelm his opposition like he did in many cases. If Luke had chosen to do so, he would have punked Caedus as he demonstrated earlier by putting Caedus in a choke-hold which Caedus couldn't shrug off.

 

 

I am being objective and I have noted all abilities of Caedus.

1. The sources state that the Dark Council executed the pair after the Kaggath had ended in stalemate, so the would have been no such danger. We have no reason to suspect they did not bring their powerbases to bear

 

I don't deny that it is possible that it was within their power to cause structural damage to the building. But there is a difference between structural damage and complete annihilation, destruction neither on Bane's or Kressh' level are of a necessary output. Noting that the damage caused by the duel between Kressh and Thanaton itself was minimal.

 

Altogether we are assuming far too much, there is not even evidence to suggest they used the Force, and no matter how logical that may be, it still remains pure assumption and hardly grounds for ascribing the Sith Emperor telekinetic powers, which is why I intend to continue to exclude it from all of my analysis on the Sith Emperor.

 

And I strongly suggest you do the same.

 

3. As I said, we shall see.

 

4. I own the SWTORE and it fails to define his abilities in any level of detail. Those accolades you provided are merely acknowledgements of general power, they lack any level of specificity and are not enough to make comparison.

 

5. I'm not interested in having this debate. I've demonstrated that Mara is not powerful enough to overcome Caedus in a straight up duel where exceptional circumstances are not involved. As I said I am concerned with objective demonstrations of Force ability as opposed to highly circumstantial confrontations.

 

6. It is self-evident. Noting that your arguments that assert Darth Sidious and the Sith Emperor as superior to Luke Skywalker are refuted by canonical statements made by George Lucas himself, of which you are aware. But I don't expect you to let go of your own fanonical and frankly absurd theory that contradicts even more material laid down by Lucas that Sidious and the Sith Emperor are someone on another plain of being of superior power.

I would like to propose Vader over Exar Kun in Saber skill.

Don't expect this debate to ever end if this argument just keeps going.

 

Seriously I only see one person challenging the current topic.

 

Sorry but Plagueis is the second most powerful Sith Lord of the Rule of Two, the Sith Emperor severely lacks in certain areas.

 

The grand comparison to be made over-all is the debate between who were the better type of Sith: Banite Sith that concentrated on internal power or the older Sith Lords that focused primarily on external ways of gaining or boosting their current power.

 

The Banite Sith are clearly the most practical and impressive of the two.

Don't expect this debate to ever end if this argument just keeps going.

 

Seriously I only see one person challenging the current topic.

 

Sorry but Plagueis is the second most powerful Sith Lord of the Rule of Two, the Sith Emperor severely lacks in certain areas.

 

The grand comparison to be made over-all is the debate between who were the better type of Sith: Banite Sith that concentrated on internal power or the older Sith Lords that focused primarily on external ways of gaining or boosting their current power.

 

The Banite Sith are clearly the most practical and impressive of the two.

As of yet, nobody has put forward substantial evidence to support either side. The Sith Emperor is not a member of the Banite line, so that argument it moot. And Plagueis is severely lacking in areas in which the Emperor flourishes.

 

Nor do I feel Plagueis' (supposed) combat superiority is definite or relevant.

 

I'd certainly advise against comparing the merits of various Sith lineages which is even more irrelevant.

I would like to propose Vader over Exar Kun in Saber skill.

 

I've beat you to it

 

My suggestions for discussion are (4.)Jaina vs (5.)Obi-Wan in the Jedi lightsaber duelist list and (3.)Kun vs (4.)Vader and (5.)Dooku on the sith one.

As of yet, nobody has put forward substantial evidence to support either side. The Sith Emperor is not a member of the Banite line, so that argument it moot. And Plagueis is severely lacking in areas in which the Emperor flourishes.

 

Nor do I feel Plagueis' (supposed) combat superiority is definite or relevant.

 

I'd certainly advise against comparing the merits of various Sith lineages which is even more irrelevant.

 

Agreed, unfortunately I havent read Plageuis novel so I am staying quiet on his feats. We need to really think about which one has shown more skill/ more power, but its really hard to determine when you really think about the fact that both of their greatest strengths come from non-combat abilities.

 

I think the big question is which is better draining a planet with the assistance of 8k sith lords to gain power, or Manipulating midichlorians.

 

Now personally I would say Midichlorians as, As far as i can tell, Force Drains gains are not permanant and can in fact be fleeting. The worse case of that being of course Nihilus who i believe likely would die if he didnt continue to drain on beings as his own life force was now tied into the energies he drained and because they were not naturally his own energies the power was constantly fleeting forcing him to HAVE to drain with a never ending instatiable thirst. But thats personal theory and understanding which we all know..... could be very wrong.

I've beat you to it

 

Oops lol, well now we have at least 2 that are advocating for that particular one.

The point has been missed completely.

 

Plagueis has far far superior Force Bolster, Force Speed and Telekinesis feats, has lightning strong enough to match the Emperor's and his Force Healing techniques combined with his Midichlorian Manipulation is far more impressive than the Sith Emperor's pseudo-Essence Transfer.

 

Personally I believe that Plagueis has shown far more impressive powers in many areas, including Foresight and Sense with his own naturally grown power than the Sith Emperor achieved in an entire millennia of un-natural boosting techniques such as rituals.

I think the big question is which is better draining a planet with the assistance of 8k sith lords to gain power, or Manipulating midichlorians.

 

Now personally I would say Midichlorians as, As far as i can tell, Force Drains gains are not permanant and can in fact be fleeting. The worse case of that being of course Nihilus who i believe likely would die if he didnt continue to drain on beings as his own life force was now tied into the energies he drained and because they were not naturally his own energies the power was constantly fleeting forcing him to HAVE to drain with a never ending instatiable thirst. But thats personal theory and understanding which we all know..... could be very wrong.

Well, whilst among their most impressive feats, I don't think they can be directly compared. What being in differing spheres and all.

 

I don't have much to say concerning the power the Sith Emperor gained via Force drain, just the act of doing it.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Beniboybling

The point has been missed completely.

 

Plagueis has far far superior Force Bolster, Force Speed and Telekinesis feats, has lightning strong enough to match the Emperor's and his Force Healing techniques combined with his Midichlorian Manipulation is far more impressive than the Sith Emperor's pseudo-Essence Transfer.

 

Personally I believe that Plagueis has shown far more impressive powers in many areas, including Foresight and Sense with his own naturally grown power than the Sith Emperor achieved in an entire millennia of un-natural boosting techniques such as rituals.

That funnily enough, was not included in the above point.

 

Concerning Force bolster and speed, pure assumption, I have little else to say there.

 

Concerning telekinesis, we lack comparative abilities.

 

Concerning lightning, I don't think we should so readily assume that disintegrating a non-Force sensitive is superior to subduing a group of powerful Force sensitives without the need of weakening them first.

 

I might agree with you concerning midichlorian manipulation, but the gap is hardly large, and I might agree with you concerning Foresight as well, but we have to remember Alter is superior to Control and Sense.

 

And finally power is power, we do not concern ourselves with the means. Altogether I think this demands a far closer reading, as opposed to dismissive statements claiming what is not in fact as self evident as you might believe.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Beniboybling

We seemed to have stalled somewhat on the Plagueis vs Sith Emperor front. So I'm going to do a formal analysis when I have the time to start or end this - then we can move on to other articles and the duelist list.

Okey any further thoughts on this article? I think we need to move on here.

Okey any further thoughts on this article? I think we need to move on here.

 

Call the Kaggath.

 

Oh, and Plageuis > Vitiate

Call the Kaggath.

 

Oh, and Plageuis > Vitiate

Fine.

 

Let me guess, cause reasons.

Okey any further thoughts on this article? I think we need to move on here.

 

Not really, no.

Are we going to any other points now? Like a couple suggested Vader vs Kun saber skill wise.

OK its time to reboot this.

 

Concerning the current Article given that no substantial argument or support has been forthcoming and we seem to be stagnating I'm going to file that one as unchanged and move on to the next - which is in the OP now.

 

If you have just finished reading this you are required to formulate and share an opinion in the next 30 seconds. Go, Go!

OK its time to reboot this.

 

Concerning the current Article given that no substantial argument or support has been forthcoming and we seem to be stagnating I'm going to file that one as unchanged and move on to the next - which is in the OP now.

 

If you have just finished reading this you are required to formulate and share an opinion in the next 30 seconds. Go, Go!

 

This one I think is really rough both have shown similar levels of many different abilities. Control both have shown exceptional levels of Force Valor, Both have chosen an impressive level of senses and both are known as Masters of TK. Though I would call them so close in Control that it would be impossible to call, while Saba seems to have an advantage in Sense, but ultimately I think Obi-wan may be able to overtake thanks to his power in Alter being assuredly a bit stronger.

 

Though I suggest that Nomi Sunrider may infact be stronger then both of these people.

 

Edit: when is Aurbere and Warren going to face off in the Kaggath.

Edited February 19, 2014 by tunewalker

I should also note that Kenobi was also suffering from a blaster wound during his duel with Ventress on Ohma-Dun.

You seem to be mistaken about a few things. It's been officially decreed that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful of all time. Granted Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader where more powerful at the time of their deaths, but at that time Luke was a Jedi Knight, and very early in his training. The only people that where able to rival him in power where Darth Caedus, who was not yet as powerful as Luke at the time of his death, and Kyp Durron. During the war with the Yuuzhan Vong Kyp Durron was the only Jedi who was able to use the Force to control the gravity wells that the Vong generated as shields, and he used this ability to destroy a Vong ship with a gravity well. Jaina was there with him and she said that even Luke couldn't do that, to which Kyp replied he knew, and he was more powerful than Luke.

You seem to be mistaken about a few things. It's been officially decreed that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful of all time. Granted Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader where more powerful at the time of their deaths, but at that time Luke was a Jedi Knight, and very early in his training. The only people that where able to rival him in power where Darth Caedus, who was not yet as powerful as Luke at the time of his death, and Kyp Durron. During the war with the Yuuzhan Vong Kyp Durron was the only Jedi who was able to use the Force to control the gravity wells that the Vong generated as shields, and he used this ability to destroy a Vong ship with a gravity well. Jaina was there with him and she said that even Luke couldn't do that, to which Kyp replied he knew, and he was more powerful than Luke.

No official statement has been made, but its self explanatory in regards to the canon statements that have been made. Noting that nowhere in this project is it made claim otherwise.

 

I.e. that the Chosen One - Anakin - had the potential to be twice as power as the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history and that Luke Skywalker achieve the potential of the Chosen One. He therefore canonically surpasses Sidious, who in turn surpasses all previous dark siders as well as Yoda, meaning he surpasses all previous light siders. Effectively he surpasses every living Force User to date. Luke therefore does as well. Luke is also confirmed by canonical sources to surpass all Jedi in the current era as well. And Caedus never surpasses him either. He is the best.

 

So yes, his position is firmly seated, and it would be illogical to dispute it.

I should also note that Kenobi was also suffering from a blaster wound during his duel with Ventress on Ohma-Dun.

You might want to note first before you also note.

You might want to note first before you also note.

 

I did, like in the beginning of the thread.

 

L2R dood!

Edited February 19, 2014 by Aurbere