Hockaday Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Any Sins out there actually -like- Maul? I am really not convinced. When i tested it on the pts, it wasn't much better, if any than Shock. Even on live the damage is on par, if maybe slightly more. All the while throwing a wrench into the rotation. I do see a use for it, filling in when shock, wither, and discharge are all on cd. But I'm not sure how often that really is. For me, I know it isn't often at all. My question is, I believe thrash or charge upgrade can be better. Am I alone in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Any Sins out there actually -like- Maul? I am really not convinced. When i tested it on the pts, it wasn't much better, if any than Shock. Even on live the damage is on par, if maybe slightly more. All the while throwing a wrench into the rotation. I do see a use for it, filling in when shock, wither, and discharge are all on cd. But I'm not sure how often that really is. For me, I know it isn't often at all. My question is, I believe thrash or charge upgrade can be better. Am I alone in this? You use it in place of a Thrash, on average once every cycle, when Wither and Shock are on cooldown and you don't yet have 3 stacks of HD. It does have a slightly lower chance to proc Energize, but it doesn't make an appreciable difference in overall self-heal timing while simultaneously doing a lot more damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 You use it in place of a Thrash, on average once every cycle, when Wither and Shock are on cooldown and you don't yet have 3 stacks of HD. It does have a slightly lower chance to proc Energize, but it doesn't make an appreciable difference in overall self-heal timing while simultaneously doing a lot more damage. Good point, i did not realize it could proc energize. Guess I'll have to move my abilities around slightly. Was hoping to avoid using another proc'd move lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Good point, i did not realize it could proc energize. Guess I'll have to move my abilities around slightly. Was hoping to avoid using another proc'd move lol. Yeah, 2.0 sin tanking is much more complex from a rotation standpoint. I like it a lot. Much higher skill ceiling, and significantly better threat. The class as a whole just feels way more cohesive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggieKasten Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I've wondered the same thing. Both thrash and maul proc energize (along with assassinate and lacerate), which means that really isn't in consideration when comparing them. Also, given how energy conservation is now basically out the window with 2.0 that really isn't a huge concern either. With just straight damage, here is what torhead says about each: Maul Deals 1748 - 1981 weapon damage to a single target. Thrash Strikes the target twice. Each hit deals 1095 - 1168 weapon damage. So you're looking at [1748-1981] < [2190-2336]. Plus, that doesn't take into account the 6% boost to thrash damage if you put two skill points into thrashing blades. You can get a 6% boost to maul with assassin's mark, but you have to spend 3 points instead of 2 plus thrashing blades also affects lacerate (and voltaic slash, but if you're going darkness you won't end up with that). Also, you HAVE to use thrash or assassinate to proc a frontal maul so if you're having to thrash anyways why not just maximize the damage that causes and continue to thrash? I'm not an experienced theorycrafter, and I've heard that maul IS part of an optimized rotation, so take this all with a grain of salt. But I'd be interested to hear an explanation from someone smarter than me how maul is worth using over thrash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Just did a 3 min parse (had to be short, about to queue) with just thrash and maul...and sabre strike to regen. http://www.torparse.com/a/177136 I was specced with the thrash upgrade and the maul proc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggieKasten Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Thanks, hockaday. Lemme do a quick glance at the numbers... Maul = 2189.47 avg dmg/hit Thrash = 741.32 avg dmg/hit Wow. Well then. I stand unbelievably corrected. However: Over length of the parse (3m 5s) Maul = 32842 total damage Thrash = 103785 total damage While I realize this is a little skewed since a lot of those thrashes would be replaced by shocks/withers/discharges/lightning in a real fight, maul is proc'ed by thrash so I'd assume the ratio between these in a real fight would be vaguely similar which means the a 6% bonus to thrash will be more valuable than a 6% bonus to maul. So basically, YES use maul whenever it procs but definitely pick 2 points in thrashing blades over 3 points in assassin's mark when filling out your skill tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 http://www.torparse.com/a/177158/24/0/Overview FE Malgus fight. I'll have to run it again, but mauless and compare. It's worth noting that you can't have both maul and thrash upgrade. At least, not in the build I think is best, with unbreakable will cd being lowered by 30s. Also, not sure if it's good or not, but you cannot keep shock ds and wither on cd using this, though I'm tired so that might be why lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 It's worth noting that you can't have both maul and thrash upgrade. At least, not in the build I think is best, with unbreakable will cd being lowered by 30s. Also, not sure if it's good or not, but you cannot keep shock ds and wither on cd using this, though I'm tired so that might be why lol. Taking the CD reduction on the stun break is really unnecessary. I mean, it's a cool talent, and maybe worthwhile situationally, but there are very few fights where it matters (basically just Toth & Zorn, which isn't even current content anymore). There was some discussion on the shadow forums a while back, and after a bit of back and forth, we determined the following build to be optimal for PvE: 39/3/4. If you want extra damage, you can trade Mental Fortitude for Expertise, but your survivability will drop somewhat due to the healing loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Ah thanks, I'm glad you guys did the work for me. I would have thought that CC break would be better, but now that I think about it...you're right lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbesmaster Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Taking the CD reduction on the stun break is really unnecessary. I mean, it's a cool talent, and maybe worthwhile situationally, but there are very few fights where it matters (basically just Toth & Zorn, which isn't even current content anymore). There was some discussion on the shadow forums a while back, and after a bit of back and forth, we determined the following build to be optimal for PvE: 39/3/4. If you want extra damage, you can trade Mental Fortitude for Expertise, but your survivability will drop somewhat due to the healing loss. It also reduces the CD of force speed and your interrupt which I think is rather useful for PvE where you are either solo'ing or pugging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthSpekulatius Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 the 5sec lower CD on force speed can be really nice some times, I'd take it over applied Force, upheaval, Rapid Recovery, Mental Fortitude (I have to test it some more to say witch one it'll be). all you lose is a bit damage but it might save some poor Sentinel (they are the worst ) who jumps a dead target and ends up 30m away. had a 14k HP Sentinel in Maelstrom Prison who would have survived if I had been able to do more then pull one taunt another one all I had to do was to get into AOE taunt range (slow time and Force breach on cd just as Force speed). I hate to see people die even if they are at fault themselves. so I personally think: mobility > Damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 http://www.torparse.com/a/177390/33/0/Damage+Dealt As you can see from this parse. On that fight thrash and maul were about equal. (prior fights i was not spec'd for the thrash upgrade). On other fights one is much higher than the other, that may be on the user end. Still makes me wonder if maul is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggieKasten Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 http://www.torparse.com/a/177390/33/0/Damage+Dealt As you can see from this parse. On that fight thrash and maul were about equal. (prior fights i was not spec'd for the thrash upgrade). On other fights one is much higher than the other, that may be on the user end. Still makes me wonder if maul is worth it. Well, their total damage over the whole fight was about even. But each maul hit for 2040.33 and each thrash hit for 669.14. Even if its counting each thrash hit individually, thats still 2040>1340. If the idea is that you're replacing a thrash in the rotation with a maul whenever it procs, I'd say its worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 True, I'm just fighting it lol. I don't like the delay in harnessed darkness...think I just need to work my rotation out a bit. Honestly it's not bad...just...argh! chaaaange! chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaange! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggieKasten Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 (edited) chaaaange! chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaange! http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/25000000/Change-LOL-XD-south-park-25090788-1260-1596.png Anything that will give me more dps is change I can believe in Edited April 11, 2013 by AggieKasten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiar Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I use maul now more than I ever did since the update. With my spec I have a 50% change to maul an opponent from the front anytime I use thrash, so my dps went up substantially by mashing the maul when it pops rather than just thrashing the entire fight. I run my assassin with full tank tree but use dps gear and it works out great. I don't steal aggro from the main tank, can off tank effectively, have very good survivability solo and in groups, and I do plenty of damage. To me it's worth it to hit for over 2k every now and then as opposed to hitting for only 600-800. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 I use maul now more than I ever did since the update. With my spec I have a 50% change to maul an opponent from the front anytime I use thrash, so my dps went up substantially by mashing the maul when it pops rather than just thrashing the entire fight. I run my assassin with full tank tree but use dps gear and it works out great. I don't steal aggro from the main tank, can off tank effectively, have very good survivability solo and in groups, and I do plenty of damage. To me it's worth it to hit for over 2k every now and then as opposed to hitting for only 600-800. Generally my thrashes hit near 2k total. Also...really? You miss a ton of dps abilities...what is your dps like that? I know people do that in PvP...though I haven't been impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/25000000/Change-LOL-XD-south-park-25090788-1260-1596.png Anything that will give me more dps is change I can believe in lol, perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiar Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Generally my thrashes hit near 2k total. Also...really? You miss a ton of dps abilities...what is your dps like that? I know people do that in PvP...though I haven't been impressed. Most of my abilities like shock, maul, force lightning etc, hit pretty hard since my crit and surge are high. Shock hits just under 2k and the 2nd shock will hit for around 800. Maul crits for 2400 most of the time, and force lightning usually hits for 850 a tic, just under 1200 on crits and they crit fairly often. Maul hits for 600-800, around 1500 total on crits. I use wither when I'm solo or tanking for heroics, and that hits for 800, 1400 on a crit. The biggest factors is having surge at 77% and a high crit chance. Once I get to 55 and can get back the melee crit chance buff in the madness tree, my dps will go up even further. It's not as much damage as deception or Madness, but I like the survivability of it. I tried the other 2 trees, and I didn't like the overall squishiness of them. Also, I can use whatever companion I want in most cases. I'm not forced to roll with a tank or healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 Most of my abilities like shock, maul, force lightning etc, hit pretty hard since my crit and surge are high. Shock hits just under 2k and the 2nd shock will hit for around 800. Maul crits for 2400 most of the time, and force lightning usually hits for 850 a tic, just under 1200 on crits and they crit fairly often. Maul hits for 600-800, around 1500 total on crits. I use wither when I'm solo or tanking for heroics, and that hits for 800, 1400 on a crit. The biggest factors is having surge at 77% and a high crit chance. Once I get to 55 and can get back the melee crit chance buff in the madness tree, my dps will go up even further. It's not as much damage as deception or Madness, but I like the survivability of it. I tried the other 2 trees, and I didn't like the overall squishiness of them. Also, I can use whatever companion I want in most cases. I'm not forced to roll with a tank or healer. Well, as an example. Most of my shocks hit for 1900-2400 plus the second shock. My Maul is hitting 2k-3.5k, wither hitting for 1k+. Slightly higher than it was at 50...but not by much...and I'm in tank gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiar Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Well, as an example. Most of my shocks hit for 1900-2400 plus the second shock. My Maul is hitting 2k-3.5k, wither hitting for 1k+. Slightly higher than it was at 50...but not by much...and I'm in tank gear. I'm also using a lot of blue mods in my gear, since he's an alt and I haven't geared him up yet. I'm not in a guild and can't run ops and HM heroics like clockwork to get there faster. When I can get him in some Blackhole of better gear I'm sure my dps will be much higher. What gear are you currently using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 Min/Maxed DG, now adding 28s into the mix. Though, even in bh my damage wasn't a ton lower either lol. But hey, w/e play style works for you. But be ware if you try and do HMs with that spec, imho anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiar Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Min/Maxed DG, now adding 28s into the mix. Though, even in bh my damage wasn't a ton lower either lol. But hey, w/e play style works for you. But be ware if you try and do HMs with that spec, imho anyway. I won't attempt HMs until I get better gear. Like I said most of my gear is fitting with blue mods, nothing past 22s, but a few purples in my weapon with a level 23 hilt. My implants and Earpiece are still tank pieces that I never replaced, but that's getting remedied soon. Not geared at all by end game standards but working on it. As I said earlier, when grouped I don't put aggro from the main tank and I don't use wither if I'm not tanking. I also control my shock use as to not accidentally pull it as well. The spec is great for off tanking when things go wrong or we don't have enough cc. I survive better than a squishy spec and I still do plenty of damage. I'd love to see my damage with 28s slotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 From a tank's point of view though, unless i see proof your damage is anywhere near deception or madness, i wouldn't want you. You might try changing from wither to at least death field. Since you're in tank spec, a lot of damage is from force lightning, and w/o wither harnessed darkness builds slowly. Let alone when you don't use shock on CD. Actually in deception you might have better survivability with greater dps. Well, better is a bit iffy...but you can use Black Out as -another- Cool down. I can appreciate why you chose your build / gear, and honestly, i could see doing similar for solo play. Just in flash points, you'd be much much MUCH more valuable as a dps spec, in dps gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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