Every month or so I come back to this thread, hoping against hope that Bioware has said something, or issued some statement giving at least SOME new info on this. Every month, I am disappointed.

As a straight person, the lack of this content hasn't affected me the way it has some. I have four level 50 characters that I've enjoyed the crap out of, one of which I still hope to be able to use for SGR content if it pops up later. I have three other characters at various stages of leveling. Thanks to my play style (going through the whole game with a friend in a different class) I've seen all the class stories from beginning to end, though not all the permutations they can take (Imperial agent apparently has at least 5 different possible endgame scenarios by itself).

So I've had a blast, and I've never regretted being a subscriber or buying the collector's edition for a moment. Yet for all that, I can't help but see the giant hole in the game left by the absence of SGR content. As I said earlier, one of my characters (female trooper, Jennifer Hale is the best space marine ever) was always going to be gay. It was a little awkward playing through her story seeing the unfulfilled opportunities for SGR content, but I got through it.

What breaks my heart is seeing people in this thread for whom what I described above is not simply awkward or disappointing, but actually a gamebreaking flaw. And I can absolutely see why. A Bioware game without romances doesn't really feel like a Bioware game, plain and simple.

It really bothers me that Bioware hasn't said a word about this since June. This isn't just some fantasy the SGR community cooked up. The players were told it was absolutely being worked on, that it would be coming out "this year." It's unfathomable to me that anyone who calls themselves a gamer couldn't sympathize with a group of people who have been waiting over a year for content they were told was coming from the very beginning.

What bothers me the most is that Bioware won't even clarify how the content is going to be implemented. I personally suspect that the content from 1-50 is the content from 1-50. No new conversation options are going to be added for that bracket, though you may eventually be able to play from level 1 with an SGR companion in the same way that you can play with HK-51 now. Again, that's what I suspect because it makes the most sense based on the framework they already have, but I have no evidence for this, and it's mind boggling that Bioware won't just TELL PEOPLE how they are planning to implement it, or if they aren't, then say so and be done with it.

Anyway, that was a bit rambling, but I guess the point is just to let people know that people who otherwise really enjoy the game are bothered by this too. Hopefully SGR companions are part of the Makeb update, though given that they didn't make it part of their initial pitch, I have doubts. Also, the fact that Allison Berryman went around to various threads on the board to pitch the new stuff coming in the expansion, but is conspicuously absent from this thread, does not help my reservations.

This is not just about mechanics. There is also a very real impact upon the person playing the game to be constantly reminded that the production team thought that OGRs were worth putting in but SGRs weren't. Putting the level mechanics aside for a moment you need to consider that some people feel actively uncomfortable being faced with a dozen NPC flirt options they're never going to take but seeing the massive gap where SGR flirts should be.

 

As I said before, a point that you've completely side-stepped, this isn't just about companion flirts. It's about mission NPC flirts too. And there are plenty of those (mostly for male characters) that you cannot avoid seeing in the process of levelling.

 

Can someone physically and mechanically level without activating companion flirts? Sure. But there's a rash of non-companion flirts one can't avoid which would be tolerable for those people if{/i] there were SGR equivalents and there simply are not. So for those people it might be difficult or even intolerable to level a character without feeling tremendously uncomfortable with the game.

 

So no, actually, judging by your arguments I'd say you don't get it; in fact you've stated several times that you don't comprehend why people can't just shut up and play. You understand the mechanics just fine, better than a lot of people, I'd wager. Respect to you there. But there's emotive content here that you clearly don't even need to consider for yourself because it doesn't affect you. You're not putting yourself outside your own experiences and contemplating that these people might have emotionally compelling reasons to avoid levelling their characters that are just as valid as anyone's distaste with, say, PvP or end-game content.

 

Which, in a way, is fine. You don't need to do that. You don't even need to understand. Other people's emotive content certainly isn't your responsibility. My point is that you're presenting opinion as if it were fact without taking everything into account. Mechanics might be the whole sum of the game but it's not the whole sum of the people playing it.

o.O Did you get this upset when Mario couldn't rescue Wario instead of the Princess?

They gave an explanation. They said "sometime after launch" You really have to go through the whole game picking the flirt option with every NPC? Hell, I don't even get the option to Mind Trick every NPC with my Jedi and Sith, and that seems more inline with options we're missing.

Even if they added in SGR with the companions, what makes you think there would be SGR flirting options with other NPCs? Even if there were, they'd likely be in the level 50 range, I would think, as to not take away from the 1-50 game there already is...unless they put in a fourth option in those chats (doubtful).

With all that. Saying "can't play the game untill it's in" goes right back to "You can. You just put companion to flirt with on hold, and work with the other companions" Which should be fine, as everyone says they want to experience EVERYTHING so they must be okay with maxing out the other companions too.

I'm not saying don't ask for it. I just think the "I can't play" line coming from posters is more a sympathy plea, than a reality. They can play, they can use non courting companions/OG companions they have no intention of flirting with, play the game, and smile when SGR does arrive.

But yeah...I could be wrong...buuuut...I don't think I'm wrong on the current NPC Flirting. Maybe/likely on Maeba (sp?) where they can put it in fresh from the start, I just don't see it happening in all the past content. Again, could be wrong, but I doubt it, that's just more work.

Which leads me back to thinking, the expansion more than likely having a new companion introduced, rather than them going in changing the current ones, so you'd have to get to 50 anyways.

o.O Did you get this upset when Mario couldn't rescue Wario instead of the Princess?

I'm not upset at all. I'm trying to explain some pretty basic concepts to someone who, it appears, is determined to ignore them.

They gave an explanation. They said "sometime after launch" You really have to go through the whole game picking the flirt option with every NPC? Hell, I don't even get the option to Mind Trick every NPC with my Jedi and Sith, and that seems more inline with options we're missing.

 

Even if they added in SGR with the companions, what makes you think there would be SGR flirting options with other NPCs? Even if there were, they'd likely be in the level 50 range, I would think, as to not take away from the 1-50 game there already is...unless they put in a fourth option in those chats (doubtful).

Again, you're not listening. One can only assume at this stage that you're choosing not to listen, because while you seem determined to miss my point you don't seem stupid.

Whether one picks the flirt options or not at certain points one will be presented with them over and again - in the case of the male Smuggler (I can't comment on female Smuggler, I haven't seen it) one is bombarded with flirtation. There's a whole mini-mission to seduce a woman on one of the planets and as far as I can tell it has no point other than putting a bit more flirtation and sex into a storyline that's already pretty rife with it.

These people see those flirt prompts and each time they do they know that there are no flirt prompts in the entire game that suit them. Absolutely none. Torture has been included, thievery has been included, lying and deception and death and opposite gender flirts, they're all in there. There's exactly zero content for non-heterosexuals. If you can't see how that might make someone uncomfortable with levelling their character then I must assume you are choosing not to see it.

With all that. Saying "can't play the game untill it's in" goes right back to "You can. You just put companion to flirt with on hold, and work with the other companions" Which should be fine, as everyone says they want to experience EVERYTHING so they must be okay with maxing out the other companions too.

 

I'm not saying don't ask for it. I just think the "I can't play" line coming from posters is more a sympathy plea, than a reality. They can play, they can use non courting companions/OG companions they have no intention of flirting with, play the game, and smile when SGR does arrive.

And I'm saying... once again... that it's not just a matter of mechanics. Some people are tremendously uncomfortable with having flirt options (note that I say 'options') shoved in one's face all the time, outlining again and again how much non-heterosexuals have been left out in the cold over this.

For the majority of the people saying they 'can't' keep playing (and I agree that 'can't' is an unfortunate word choice) I think it's a fair guess that they feel too uncomfortable, disenchanted, excluded and angry to play. For them the word 'can't' might be entirely appropriate and it might have nothing at all to do with mechanics - which is a point that I've brought up several times and one that you repeatedly ignore, then trying to discredit my comments by insinuating that I'm angry.

I AM angry, actually, but I'm angry at Bioware, and I'm angry at the continual silence. I'm certainly not angry at you. Emphatic and verbose, certainly, but not angry. I just don't get why you'd bother coming into this thread and claim that one of the absolute most key points about what the LGBT crowd are feeling - excluded - is somehow irrelevant to their gameplay. That seems... foolish to me. 'I have no problem with SGRAs being in the game but shut up because you're not actually uncomfortable, you're just whining' seems to be what you're saying, and that doesn't wash.

But yeah...I could be wrong...buuuut...I don't think I'm wrong on the current NPC Flirting. Maybe/likely on Maeba (sp?) where they can put it in fresh from the start, I just don't see it happening in all the past content. Again, could be wrong, but I doubt it, that's just more work.

 

Which leads me back to thinking, the expansion more than likely having a new companion introduced, rather than them going in changing the current ones, so you'd have to get to 50 anyways.

You probably mean Makeb, unless there's another planet coming with the expansion. I don't know, I haven't bothered keeping up with the content news regarding Makeb. I've preordered it and intend to explore it but the only thing I want news on right now is SGRAs.

I'm not upset at all. I'm trying to explain some pretty basic concepts to someone who, it appears, is determined to ignore them.

 

 

 

Again, you're not listening. One can only assume at this stage that you're choosing not to listen, because while you seem determined to miss my point you don't seem stupid.

 

Whether one picks the flirt options or not at certain points one will be presented with them over and again - in the case of the male Smuggler (I can't comment on female Smuggler, I haven't seen it) one is bombarded with flirtation. There's a whole mini-mission to seduce a woman on one of the planets and as far as I can tell it has no point other than putting a bit more flirtation and sex into a storyline that's already pretty rife with it.

 

These people see those flirt prompts and each time they do they know that there are no flirt prompts in the entire game that suit them. Absolutely none. Torture has been included, thievery has been included, lying and deception and death and opposite gender flirts, they're all in there. There's exactly zero content for non-heterosexuals. If you can't see how that might make someone uncomfortable with levelling their character then I must assume you are choosing not to see it.

 

 

 

And I'm saying... once again... that it's not just a matter of mechanics. Some people are tremendously uncomfortable with having flirt options (note that I say 'options') shoved in one's face all the time, outlining again and again how much non-heterosexuals have been left out in the cold over this.

 

For the majority of the people saying they 'can't' keep playing (and I agree that 'can't' is an unfortunate word choice) I think it's a fair guess that they feel too uncomfortable, disenchanted, excluded and angry to play. For them the word 'can't' might be entirely appropriate and it might have nothing at all to do with mechanics - which is a point that I've brought up several times and one that you repeatedly ignore, then trying to discredit my comments by insinuating that I'm angry.

 

I AM angry, actually, but I'm angry at Bioware, and I'm angry at the continual silence. I'm certainly not angry at you. Emphatic and verbose, certainly, but not angry. I just don't get why you'd bother coming into this thread and claim that one of the absolute most key points about what the LGBT crowd are feeling - excluded - is somehow irrelevant to their gameplay. That seems... foolish to me. 'I have no problem with SGRAs being in the game but shut up because you're not actually uncomfortable, you're just whining' seems to be what you're saying, and that doesn't wash.

 

 

 

You probably mean Makeb, unless there's another planet coming with the expansion. I don't know, I haven't bothered keeping up with the content news regarding Makeb. I've preordered it and intend to explore it but the only thing I want news on right now is SGRAs.

If someone has a problem with the fact that theres a flirt option, but not one they want, then the problem is the player, not the game and not the devs. I know my character whether attracted to SG or OG doesn't get to flirt with every character I think they would. I don't take it as a personal insult or let it get me down and thinking BW is doing something terrible.

So why not fight for a flirt option on every possible NPC you meet?

I also recognize the most important fact that most in this thread seems to miss. This is not BW's other games. This is SWTOR. I'm not saying they shouldn't work on it. But the examples of "Well their other games have it" is meaningless. They're not the same game. That's like saying, "This company made an electric toothbrush, now all of them should be electric"

That said, there was at least one SG NPC who seemed to flirt with my BH. So it's not like it isn't in there. You just don't get to hook up with a companion. And Ashara, really, one of the worst NPCS to hookup with. Her personality is terrible, and for the female BHs that would be the only SGR option...sooo...you take it because it's the only option and no other good option is available? If that's the case, could always treat current relations just like that...no good option, since you know, the npc isn't attracted to your character.

This thread just reminds me of Lucent Hearts (believe that's the name) where the game is released and people complained about something that was never said to be a feature to begin with (SGR) in a game based around marring another player and teaming with them for bonuses.

And I recall the linked post saying "will be put in post launch" not "put in within the year" is there another post I'm missing? Or is this a case of players putting words into devs mouths again?

And I recall the linked post saying "will be put in post launch" not "put in within the year" is there another post I'm missing? Or is this a case of players putting words into devs mouths again?

No reason one has to choose right away. The game doesn't end at 50 (or 55 when the level cap gets extended). If you can't decide which companion you want your character with (or if it's not an option yet due to SGR) just don't bother with them untill you've decided/it's possible.

 

For my SI, while parts of Andy's personality is annoying, imo he was just the better option, and I'm open to having all the companions being open. Ashara I just don't see as being a good companion for anyone really The other options are really meh :/ The old geeky guy (Talos, who I believe has options to make him look younger, buuut, it doesnt change anything about him other than his looks), and two companions who can't be courted (I don't think Xalek can be courted anyways, could be wrong, but he comes off as another you wouldn't want to anyways).

 

Which leaves me a bit curious...as Ashara's personality just seems so off putting, is it people wanting a SGR just for SGR that have them wanting to court her at all? Or does her personality improve if you play a male SI?

Oh man, no way. Ashara is the best, and Talos is the second best. If there had been an option to romance Talos as I guy I may have considered it. Andronikos I just found boring and annoying, like Khem.

If you're going LS then Ashara isn't quite so bad to you, and she warms up a lot if you're romancing her.

Outdated, forgotten, and never clarified, but he said it.

So now the question is...is he still with the company? If he isn't, the company could be under new direction.

Also as a CoH player who never got a reason from NCSoft on why exactly the game shut down (I have my own thoughts on why) other than "new business direction" I really don't think BW/EA is going to do much different.

One can either accept that, or leave. And really, I just don't think the number who'd leave on such a detail is significant.

Really though, Kioma said the gbt community is made to feel excluded, and I think that's just another comment with no meaning behind it.

If an MMO was made without a OGR in it, let's say because it's target audience was the gay community. If people said it was discrimating against OGR, they'd get flack for it. Not to mention Kioma's exact words were GLBT...ummm...where's my transgendered option? Hell, wheres just my cross dresser option? One of my favorite RP characters is a cross dresser, I don't have this option in game.

And the more I think on it. If it's a story driven game, wouldn't Mako be gay, straight, or bi? Not all three? Wouldn't all the NPCs be set at what they are, and your character would interract with them, as they were? You know, like in RL where if you're SGA, sadly that straight person just isn't going to give you what you want (or vice versa).

So, could just be possible the SGA character of yours hasn't met another who's that attracted to the SG as your character is, and that's how the story goes,untill they put one in? Which poor fool...it'll be one person dating 50. He/She will never get to rest.

First off, I love you ignore list, you help me keep my mind free so well.

Second, Kioma, can you send me that bit of your sig about the message to Dinsey/Bw? Would love to put it in my sig too ^.^

Third, I really don't understand people. Reading through this thread, all the strawmen and other logical fallacies bandied about is stunning. Don't come in here and tell us what we want, would do, will do, might do, won't do, ect...

This thread is about a simple answer to a simple question, Will the mirror image of something that is already in game and was supposed to be added end up in the game we support and enjoy playing . If you have nothing to clarify that question, you really don't have any purpose being here.

I'll never understand where the hate is coming from, I really won't.

*sighs*

^.^

First off, I love you ignore list, you help me keep my mind free so well.

 

Second, Kioma, can you send me that bit of your sig about the message to Dinsey/Bw? Would love to put it in my sig too ^.^

 

Third, I really don't understand people. Reading through this thread, all the strawmen and other logical fallacies bandied about is stunning. Don't come in here and tell us what we want, would do, will do, might do, won't do, ect...

 

This thread is about a simple answer to a simple question, Will the mirror image of something that is already in game and was supposed to be added end up in the game we support and enjoy playing . If you have nothing to clarify that question, you really don't have any purpose being here.

 

I'll never understand where the hate is coming from, I really won't.

*sighs*

 

^.^

The thread seemed to go way past the OP intents before I ever got here. I just joined in. I found the discussion interresting.

If it just stuck to the OP, then I'd have to wonder why everyone else stuck around way way WAY before I ever showed up in this thread.

Sticking to the OP. As a player, yes clarification is great and always wanted. Thinking of it from the companes point of view, worst thing they could ever do. Should stick to the "Soon" comment, and when it comes, it comes, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

Basically, if you tell the player base something is coming, and then have to back out of it for one reason or another, whether you want to or not, they won't let it go. I mean look at this thread. Posters can't let go of getting clarification. Instead of moving on with the game and playing it as is, or moving onto another MMO that gives them SGR they stick around.

So now the question is...is he still with the company? If he isn't, the company could be under new direction.

Here's what Joveth said back in September:

"Please know that we’re definitely keeping up with all of the comments in that thread. Unfortunately, as Allison has said in the past in response to this issue, we do not have any new information since Daniel Erickson’s comments from the Guild Summit back in March. As soon as we have any sort of update, we will immediately let that thread know."

Since they've added nothing to that, it left the March quote as the official goal-post. Also in September, we had Gabe's "I don't know, maybe in the next update with Makeb" comment, which was endorsed by Hall Hood's vanishing Tweet. Said update got sliced, diced and served up piece-meal for two patches and the coming expansion.

Regardless, that was the last info we got so we hung onto it.

Really though, Kioma said the gbt community is made to feel excluded, and I think that's just another comment with no meaning behind it.

 

If an MMO was made without a OGR in it, let's say because it's target audience was the gay community. If people said it was discrimating against OGR, they'd get flack for it. Not to mention Kioma's exact words were GLBT...ummm...where's my transgendered option?

 

And the more I think on it. If it's a story driven game, wouldn't Mako be gay, straight, or bi? Not all three? Wouldn't all the NPCs be set at what they are, and your character would interract with them, as they were? You know, like in RL where if you're SGA, sadly that straight person just isn't going to give you what you want (or vice versa).

 

So, could just be possible the SGA character of yours hasn't met another who's that attracted to the SG as your character is, and that's how the story goes,untill they put one in? .

As for exclusion, I'm not part of the 'community' so I'll try to avoid speaking for them. The choice was still made to arbitrarily split the romance arcs, with only OGRs at launch - they've been cagey and less-than-correct ever since, while hyping how supportive they are in interviews. Actions are louder than words, and all that.

TG... good question, that would be one to ask the Overlords behind the curtain.

One of our Big Board O' Questions is "will this be like Dragon Age 2, wherein 'everyone is bi/Hero-Sexual'?"

Does the "they're different, for different play-throughs" idea wash with a MMO? Yet more things we're still waiting to hear.

As for "sticking around, rather than finding another game", that seems oddly defeatist. No game is ever going to be perfect, so people make do. Everyone's tipping point is different, after all.

I have to say for the life of me I can't figure out why the naysayers spend so much time with us here on this thread.

We get it, you don't want it, or you don't think it's important..ok...but but isn't there some other subject you do want? if you put as much effort into that surely your time time would be more productively spent as is ours in this thread!

No need to answer as honestly I wouldn't understand and as such don't particularly care, you're different, you're ok, I'm ok! just felt the need to get that out there!

As for the whole *while not level but not have convo's* idea for me with some characters I don't want to miss out on any possible NPC flirts plus I find the whole thing more enjoyable if it's done as intended..over the course of the leveling experience.

I have managed to start playing my warrior again and will hold off on romances as it's that or not play but my JK, Trooper and smuggler I just can't bear to lvl until I know what's going on!

I'm a half glass full kinda girl so I shall keep my positive hat on for a while longer!

Hope you're all having a fab festive season

Really though, Kioma said the gbt community is made to feel excluded, and I think that's just another comment with no meaning behind it.

But it's true. I *do* feel excluded (just like I felt excluded by the acronym you used there, and itched to say that L is different to G, and therefore they both should be there, then decided it was probably a typo and let it go ). There are some characters of mine (read: all of them) for which this exclusion just grates whenever it comes up. Every time I see a heterosexual flirt in the game, I'm reminded of the absence of homosexual flirts. Sure, my characters don't use flirt options (unless I'm mucking around seeing what each conversation option does - yes, that does take up some of my play time, the ESC key is handy - or if I think my character would grit her teeth and do it anyway because it gets her something she wants (an extremely rare occurance)) - but when they would flirt (if this were a tabletop game), they can't.

(I decided to snip out the part of my post that discussed hypothetical SGR only games and transgender visibility because it probably contravenes the guidelines for this thread. Needless to say, the absence of T (and I for that matter) is a concern of mine.)

And the more I think on it. If it's a story driven game, wouldn't Mako be gay, straight, or bi? Not all three? Wouldn't all the NPCs be set at what they are, and your character would interract with them, as they were? You know, like in RL where if you're SGA, sadly that straight person just isn't going to give you what you want (or vice versa).

 

So, could just be possible the SGA character of yours hasn't met another who's that attracted to the SG as your character is, and that's how the story goes,untill they put one in? Which poor fool...it'll be one person dating 50. He/She will never get to rest.

If this game were just a non-interactive story, yes Mako would have a fixed sexuality. Just think of everyone's game as "what if" - because we don't get to see Mako interacting with every single BH, just our own, her sexuality only matters to our story. If Joe Bloggs's Mako is straight, it has no bearing on Jane Bloggs's lesbian (or bisexual depending on how it played out) Mako. Joe's Mako is not Jane's Mako... They're not the same character, just possible variants on a theme.

I do remember, though, having a brief exchange with David Gaider back in the days of NWN when I was insisting that just replacing the hard coded pronouns with gender tokens was good enough for SGR (back before everything was fully voiced ) - he basically said that it was bad writing (sound familiar?). He convinced me that day, that in a perfect world, each character would have their own sexuality - some would be straight, some bi, some homosexual. Unfortunately the world is not perfect, and making a whole bunch of romances that don't intersect for both genders is a lot of time and money - so the best we can hope for for the near future is more hero-sexual love interests.

Third, I really don't understand people. Reading through this thread, all the strawmen and other logical fallacies bandied about is stunning. Don't come in here and tell us what we want, would do, will do, might do, won't do, ect...

I agree. Especially when the conversation is going in circles with one person going "xyz" and a second person going "yes, but..." and it's starting all over again.

Topics that have long been discussed, by the way.

Can't seem to take any interest in these kinds of discussions, since concern trolls are still trolls after all.

Really though, Kioma said the gbt community is made to feel excluded, and I think that's just another comment with no meaning behind it.

And that, right there, is a sign not only that you don't understand, but of how much you don't understand.

If an MMO was made without a OGR in it, let's say because it's target audience was the gay community. If people said it was discrimating against OGR, they'd get flack for it. Not to mention Kioma's exact words were GLBT...ummm...where's my transgendered option? Hell, wheres just my cross dresser option? One of my favorite RP characters is a cross dresser, I don't have this option in game.

If the MMO were made for the general public as SWTOR was (it was not made exclusively or specifically for the heterosexual population of the globe) and it had SGRs and not OGRs, then yes, I'm be up in arms about that. I want equality here, and currently SWTOR lacks it. For the same reason I don't support misandry or misogyny.

Regarding cross-dressing, I was downright annoyed when I found clothes that were gender-specific. I think that restriction should be outright removed. So yes, I also support transgendered people and everyone else along the broad, fluid spectrum that is human sexuality. If it's legal I support it.

And if you're that disappointed by the lack of cross-dressing options in SWTOR I suggest you start a thread about it. I'd support you all the way (in the unlikely but possible event that you're actually serious).

If an MMO was made without a OGR in it, let's say because it's target audience was the gay community. If people said it was discrimating against OGR, they'd get flack for it. Not to mention Kioma's exact words were GLBT...ummm...where's my transgendered option? Hell, wheres just my cross dresser option? One of my favorite RP characters is a cross dresser, I don't have this option in game.

Okay so technically it's not actually an option, but there is a starship upgrades vendor on the Republic fleet you might be interested in chatting with: Captain Gek. Notice the dialogue in the chatbox. There was another in Section X for Imps, but their dialogue was switched to match their visible sex last I checked. I am also on board for removing gendered clothing, and perhaps allowing people to choose whether certain tops are midriff-baring, instead of having it automatically happen (so frustrating, it usually removes some of my favorite pieces of that armor).

Also, yes please, I would love to have a thread to discuss trans* possibilities for this game (my posts about it in here keep getting deleted), but don't feel confident enough to start one, myself. Rather...thinking about it, that might get even worse bashing than LGB stuff gets. Maybe it isn't the best idea, or perhaps should be something kept in a quieter forum if we want have a meaningful, level-headed discussion with minimal interruption.

Really though, Kioma said the gbt community is made to feel excluded, and I think that's just another comment with no meaning behind it.

The game is telling LGBT players they don't exist, that their concerns and wants are trivial. The game is telling them that they are not "normal" and that they do not "deserve" to be given equal options and equal representation.

It seems to me that you are essentially telling someone to ignore the discrimination and micro-aggressions being aimed at them because you don't think that those are a problem because they do not affect you. It seems to me you are approaching this topic from a position of privilege and you just can't understand that people without that privilege might have different reactions to the same circumstances, or even that people with the same privilege as you might have different reactions to the same circumstances.

What you have essentially said is that despite LGB players not being represented, not being able to make choices that they will enjoy, that they are not being excluded. Explain that.

I am also on board for removing gendered clothing, and perhaps allowing people to choose whether certain tops are midriff-baring, instead of having it automatically happen (so frustrating, it usually removes some of my favorite pieces of that armor).

+1

I would totally consider actually paying for an Investigator's Armor set if they didn't remove half the cloth for female characters, which ruins the armor completely. (Also, slave outfits, dancer outfits and loungewear should be available for men too. Maybe not the same designs, but still.)

I agree. Especially when the conversation is going in circles with one person going "xyz" and a second person going "yes, but..." and it's starting all over again.

 

Topics that have long been discussed, by the way.

 

Can't seem to take any interest in these kinds of discussions, since concern trolls are still trolls after all.

Right. It goes in circles because for them is not really about exchanging some opinions and leave it at a "agree to disagree" state. They just keep regurgitating same old piss poor arguments against it as way of showing their contempt and despise over and over. That's what is about. Unfortunately, this won't change

One thing I find rather amusing about all of this...

GLAAD has investigated this for a reason. GLAAD was under no obligation to do so. I can imagine it deals with people crying wolf over discrimination all the time. So they take it seriously. Trust me, they wouldn't have even bothered to get back to a few of us otherwise. They also did say they'd get back to us early next year to pursue this further if EA kept screwing around.

The exclusion of the content with the inclusion of OGRs was a form of discrimination in and of itself. That is insulting, but the continued silence over this one subject seals it for me. I'm also seeing how much more information is being released about Makeb. I'm going to tentatively take that as a positive sign that we'll get our answer after the New Year.

It isn't just the media that cares after all. We do have one helluva powerful ally at our back. So to Hades with the trolls. We're don't have to explain ourselves to them or anyone else.

There are days I just get sick of people trying to make me justify my existence as a LGBT person. It carries over into my game world too, with an AAA Company doing it no less. I love the gaming culture, but there are those days that I know that has a long way to grow.

BioWare-Austin, Electronic Arts and all companies associated with The Old Republic:

We need an update. It's only going to get louder from all parties until you speak. Grid yourselves and learn to deal with the uproar. Like you have done before.

Mr. Hickman, give us an answer. Where it can't be hidden behind an offhanded comment. Granted, that comment meant a lot to me and I'm sure it did for others. Gabe and Hall took a risk to let this group know that they are listening at leat.

At this point though, the update needs to come from you Sir. On a video would be nice, but I would take a "State of the Game," type post.

Edit: These game comparisons are getting out of hand at this point. This isn't about platforming games. Game comparisons are one thing, but this is ridiculous.

This is about the content promised by this company for this game. This about about a company that has a prescient for this content in the past. Not a platform game series started nearly 25 years ago.

This isn't about why people are offended that this content could very well happen. This isn't about the 14th excuse as to why not to have the content, this is about getting an update on said content.

I'm done with the trolls that come in and keep trying to derail this topic. Any posts stating why this content should not make into the game will be flagged as off topic. It's been stated over and over again by posters and by mods that that it isn't the point of this thread. I'm done dealing with it.

If there are those that wish to discuss the reasons why some features aren't going to make it into the game, there are various threads or just start your own.

The game is telling LGBT players they don't exist, that their concerns and wants are trivial. The game is telling them that they are not "normal" and that they do not "deserve" to be given equal options and equal representation.

 

It seems to me that you are essentially telling someone to ignore the discrimination and micro-aggressions being aimed at them because you don't think that those are a problem because they do not affect you. It seems to me you are approaching this topic from a position of privilege and you just can't understand that people without that privilege might have different reactions to the same circumstances, or even that people with the same privilege as you might have different reactions to the same circumstances.

 

What you have essentially said is that despite LGB players not being represented, not being able to make choices that they will enjoy, that they are not being excluded. Explain that.

No what I'm saying is we don't see this complaint in every other game out there.

Is the GBT community excluded when Link saves the princess instead of a prince?

And you have no idea if it effects me or not as I've never said what my orientation is. I can just see it logically and not see everything as an offense to my RL status.

You already know BW has put in GBT content in other games. So to think the company has discriminated against the GBT community is poor form on those who think it.

But it's true. I *do* feel excluded (just like I felt excluded by the acronym you used there, and itched to say that L is different to G, and therefore they both should be there, then decided it was probably a typo and let it go ). There are some characters of mine (read: all of them) for which this exclusion just grates whenever it comes up. Every time I see a heterosexual flirt in the game, I'm reminded of the absence of homosexual flirts. Sure, my characters don't use flirt options (unless I'm mucking around seeing what each conversation option does - yes, that does take up some of my play time, the ESC key is handy - or if I think my character would grit her teeth and do it anyway because it gets her something she wants (an extremely rare occurance)) - but when they would flirt (if this were a tabletop game), they can't.

 

(I decided to snip out the part of my post that discussed hypothetical SGR only games and transgender visibility because it probably contravenes the guidelines for this thread. Needless to say, the absence of T (and I for that matter) is a concern of mine.)

 

 

 

If this game were just a non-interactive story, yes Mako would have a fixed sexuality. Just think of everyone's game as "what if" - because we don't get to see Mako interacting with every single BH, just our own, her sexuality only matters to our story. If Joe Bloggs's Mako is straight, it has no bearing on Jane Bloggs's lesbian (or bisexual depending on how it played out) Mako. Joe's Mako is not Jane's Mako... They're not the same character, just possible variants on a theme.

 

I do remember, though, having a brief exchange with David Gaider back in the days of NWN when I was insisting that just replacing the hard coded pronouns with gender tokens was good enough for SGR (back before everything was fully voiced ) - he basically said that it was bad writing (sound familiar?). He convinced me that day, that in a perfect world, each character would have their own sexuality - some would be straight, some bi, some homosexual. Unfortunately the world is not perfect, and making a whole bunch of romances that don't intersect for both genders is a lot of time and money - so the best we can hope for for the near future is more hero-sexual love interests.

I'm not against the gender token. But, MMOs stories are linear, just like a console single player game. You just don't think it is, because the illusion of choices.

The company can only do so many choices. It will get to the point in the games storyline will you will look at it, and wonder to yourself, how did this event happen, if my character did this choice?

The storyline is planned to get you from point A to point B.

And the bad writing is a valid concern. Admittedly, one I think only a few players would likely take notice of.

My thought on this, is people feel entitled to something in a product they don't have to support. Wanting answers is fine. But if they give an answer that doesn't equal what you want, then they're ragged on anyways.

They said it was excluded due to budget and time restraints. I can see that as being totally truthful. I can see them ending up putting it on the backburner untill they think it's ready and they're not covering other things that they think has priority over this part of the game. I can see why they would put it lower on the list.

And that, right there, is a sign not only that you don't understand, but of how much you don't understand.

 

 

 

If the MMO were made for the general public as SWTOR was (it was not made exclusively or specifically for the heterosexual population of the globe) and it had SGRs and not OGRs, then yes, I'm be up in arms about that. I want equality here, and currently SWTOR lacks it. For the same reason I don't support misandry or misogyny.

 

Regarding cross-dressing, I was downright annoyed when I found clothes that were gender-specific. I think that restriction should be outright removed. So yes, I also support transgendered people and everyone else along the broad, fluid spectrum that is human sexuality. If it's legal I support it.

 

And if you're that disappointed by the lack of cross-dressing options in SWTOR I suggest you start a thread about it. I'd support you all the way (in the unlikely but possible event that you're actually serious).

Serious about the cross dressing. Sadly, the character customization is so terrible in this game it'd be meh to me.

However, you're wrong. Made for the general public would mean made for just that, the majority of public. The GBT community is a very small percentage of the general public.

Wow, 10/10 for the Sith. The concern trolling was pretty good, but the petty little "GBT" thing after being informed that it's annoying and exclusionary is utterly top-notch. That is some quality unreportable effort to induce rage and pain in your target audience. If only you could be convinced to use your powers for good instead of evil.

Thanks for the bumps, though.

I'm gonna try a new track in explaining this. In the past, Bioware games have included content for us ( the LGBT community ) As such, we have bought their products and enjoyed them and said how much we have, praised them even. They have used this support in their marketing to advertise to us that future games from them would included the same.

Now, if Bioware had said you (specifically those people arguing against this) that in the past they created content specifically for you and enjoyed your support and their new game would be including it, then before launch announced it would not be included and then kept dangling the possibility so you'd keep paying, how would you feel. Try to put yourself in another shoes for a moment and really THINK.

All we ask for is an answer to a question. They don't seem reluctant to to answer questions about other content, they have to let some info out, so why not answer ours? Its the bizarre silence from people who were normally vocal about the content we want to get our support (and money) that I personally have issue with.

A simple yes or no would do it for me. Some have suggested that we would keep complaining after we got an answer, well we won't know until they do, and to pretend otherwise is rather insulting in and of itself. Don't put words in our mouths, give us your reasons for not wanting this content, and discuss our points.

^.^

They said it was excluded due to budget and time restraints. I can see that as being totally truthful. I can see them ending up putting it on the backburner untill they think it's ready and they're not covering other things that they think has priority over this part of the game. I can see why they would put it lower on the list.

The fact they somehow still had the budget and time to do the OGRs, but not SGR? Yeah, that's where the exclusionary talk comes into it.

Just imagine the whiny, foul-mouthed reaction in General they'd have gotten if they had said "we've not the time to finish Space Missions... better put in the Imperial ones only and call Republic-side a 'post-launch feature'" and then fobbed off the issue for over a year.

Somehow, I doubt they would have people offering up nonsense like "just head-canon that your Smuggler has a pimped-up ship, it's not that important to their character" or "go download X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter off some Rom site, if you're so interested in Space Combat... yes, I know that won't work in Windows 7".