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An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars


Aurbere

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The Mandalorians have never governed anything they conquered, really. They go in, kill any resistance and recruit the survivors. If they didn't do this, they wouldn't be able to maintain the war effort. They wouldn't even have been able to go to war if they didn't recruit people. The Mandalorian clans had taken a huge hit after the Exar Kun debacle, so they had to recruit in order to effectively maintain the war effort.

 

They have never been about conquering. They would take over a planet, take what they want and leave. And if they can't take what they want, they bombard the planet. Look at Serocco. They devastated the planet. If the Corellia uprising happened to the Mandalorians, they would have bombarded the planet.

 

And I don't think the Republic would be able to retake the Core worlds as effectively as you think. By this time, the Mandalorians would have utterly outnumbered the Republic forces and have the Core Worlds surrounded, slowly moving inward. Once the Mandalorians hit the Core, the Republic would be doomed without the Jedi.

 

I don't think the people of the Core Worlds are exactly recruitable... have you played Alderaan? Those pompous nobles would never become Mandalorian. Most likely their would be resistance on every world, and lets face it. The option in which the Jedi never intervene is impossible. I mean, when they finally reach Coruscant the Jedi Council aren't just going to meditate and let the Mandorians shoot them in their chamber :p

 

Sure the Republic would be heavily, heavily outnumbered. But I believe the Mandalorians would fall apart, fighting amongst themselves for the galaxy they have pillaged and wipe each other out - this would make the Republic's job a lot easier.

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I don't think the people of the Core Worlds are exactly recruitable... have you played Alderaan? Those pompous nobles would never become Mandalorian. Most likely their would be resistance on every world, and lets face it. The option in which the Jedi never intervene is impossible. I mean, when they finally reach Coruscant the Jedi Council aren't just going to meditate and let the Mandorians shoot them in their chamber :p

 

Sure the Republic would be heavily, heavily outnumbered. But I believe the Mandalorians would fall apart, fighting amongst themselves for the galaxy they have pillaged and wipe each other out - this would make the Republic's job a lot easier.

 

No they aren't. So they Mandalorians would just bombard the world into submission. And this scenario is if the Jedi had completely abstained from the war.

 

I don't think the Mandalorians would turn on each other. Mandalore the Ultimate was one of the greatest Mandalorian leaders. He united the clans for a single purpose. They were united in the fact that they wanted a glorious victory. They wouldn't jeapordize that.

 

We also have to remember that Republic morale, numbers and supplies have run low. By the time the Mandalorians hit the Core Worlds, they have taken control of vital trade routes, gained multiple victories against Republic forces, and just the fact that they were in the Core would give a sense of hopelessness to the people.

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No they aren't. So they Mandalorians would just bombard the world into submission. And this scenario is if the Jedi had completely abstained from the war.

 

I don't think the Mandalorians would turn on each other. Mandalore the Ultimate was one of the greatest Mandalorian leaders. He united the clans for a single purpose. They were united in the fact that they wanted a glorious victory. They wouldn't jeapordize that.

 

We also have to remember that Republic morale, numbers and supplies have run low. By the time the Mandalorians hit the Core Worlds, they have taken control of vital trade routes, gained multiple victories against Republic forces, and just the fact that they were in the Core would give a sense of hopelessness to the people.

Good point, they were highly fanatic. Whatsmore, at this point no doubt the True Sith would have intervened and taken over.

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Good point, they were highly fanatic. Whatsmore, at this point no doubt the True Sith would have intervened and taken over.

 

That's actually a good point. I'm sure the Emperor was keeping tabs on the Mandalorians and would started to move in if his minions were doing well. Then we would see the Jedi go to war. This is what they were waiting for, but I don't think the Jedi would have much of a chance once the Sith Empire steps in.

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That's actually a good point. I'm sure the Emperor was keeping tabs on the Mandalorians and would started to move in if his minions were doing well. Then we would see the Jedi go to war. This is what they were waiting for, but I don't think the Jedi would have much of a chance once the Sith Empire steps in.

 

Which is why the Jedi philosophy was basically wrong. If they waited until the Sith Empire revealed themselves it would have been way too late to save anything.

 

This is why essentially Revan was right. DId he bring untold war and destruction to the Republic? Yes he did, is that horrible? Yes it was, however it was only through his actions of delaying the Sith Empire that the Republic survived long enough to rebuild. If he didn't fight the Mandalorians, then turn against the Republic, etc this wouldn't have ever happened. Thus his actions had to happen, this is why I believe that Kotor 2, story is superior to just about all other Star Wars games, there are no real good guys in this story, no good vs evil, it is flawed vs flawed.

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Which is why the Jedi philosophy was basically wrong. If they waited until the Sith Empire revealed themselves it would have been way too late to save anything.

 

This is why essentially Revan was right. DId he bring untold war and destruction to the Republic? Yes he did, is that horrible? Yes it was, however it was only through his actions of delaying the Sith Empire that the Republic survived long enough to rebuild. If he didn't fight the Mandalorians, then turn against the Republic, etc this wouldn't have ever happened. Thus his actions had to happen, this is why I believe that Kotor 2, story is superior to just about all other Star Wars games, there are no real good guys in this story, no good vs evil, it is flawed vs flawed.

 

You kind of left the Exile out of that, without her, Revan would never have had the strength to fight back against the Emperor.

 

But yes I agree, KotOR II is well and above almost any other work in the EU, it was a bold move by Avellone to question everything already established previously in Star Wars, but it worked in a way no other work has ever achieved since..

Edited by Rayla_Felana
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Which is why the Jedi philosophy was basically wrong. If they waited until the Sith Empire revealed themselves it would have been way too late to save anything.

 

This is why essentially Revan was right. DId he bring untold war and destruction to the Republic? Yes he did, is that horrible? Yes it was, however it was only through his actions of delaying the Sith Empire that the Republic survived long enough to rebuild. If he didn't fight the Mandalorians, then turn against the Republic, etc this wouldn't have ever happened. Thus his actions had to happen, this is why I believe that Kotor 2, story is superior to just about all other Star Wars games, there are no real good guys in this story, no good vs evil, it is flawed vs flawed.

 

 

Yet the Republic still seems to be loosing to the SE...

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In the first Kotor game, there is a argument between Carth and Canderous about if the Mandalorians conquered the Republic would they have been able to hold it. Canderous says "Maybe. We'll never know." He seems to imply they would have tried.

 

Revan only delayed the Sith Empire after he accelerated it's return. If his goal was to strengthen the Republic by going to war he not only failed, he failed monumentally. The Republic and Jedi were left in ruins because of his actions. Much worse than they would have been if the Mandalorian Wars had gone on longer. That's why he only managed to clean up his own mess in Kotor 1 and Revan, the novel. And that's why he wrong to go to war. By the time Malachor V rolled around, Revan was already fallen to the darkside. It's why he activated the Mass Shadow Generator in the first place. He had methods to turn Jedi to the darkside to serve him, but the Mass Shadow Generator wasn't it. Every Jedi except the Exile was killed at Malachor V. That was the whole point of why she was special and why Kreia was obsessed with her.

 

The problem with Revan's motive is that after Kotor, both games that came after retconned them so his story is disjointed because it kept changing.

 

In essence it's:

Kotor 1 motives: Conquer the Republic for power.

Kotor 2 motives: Conquer the Republic to make it stronger under his rule (and power).

Tor motives: Mind controlled to attacked the Republic by the Emperor and he then broke free to did it for himself.

 

I think Kotor 2 was inferior to most Star Wars stories, for exactly the reason that it isn't good vs evil. Star Wars supposed to be a story about good and evil, by taking that away it basically turned the story into something else. Which wouldn't be a problem if this wasn't supposed to be a Star Wars story.

 

Nor do I think that Kreia's questioning the rules of Star Wars "worked" at all. All she did says follow you saying things that were either lies, wrong or insane. Nothing she said at all was wise or legitimately profound and I could pretty much safely ignore everything she told me. She was just annoying and useless. In fact I guess she was less than useless since she was the main villain and actively working against you. I came away from every final battle with her in my Kotor 2 playthroughs, happy I was finally rid of her insane ramblings. The fact that the game seemed to insist she was right made it all the more absurd and infuriating. The game seems to tell you she wins in the end because you gave her what she wanted but that makes no sense if I felt like I was ready to forget I ever met her.

 

She's basically a character that almost resents the fact that she's in a Star Wars story. Right up to the insane notion of hating the force. I knew everything she says was wrong instantly because it was either A) Something that didn't fit with Star Wars or B) Obviously morally unacceptable for non Sith anyway.

 

And getting back to Revan, it's her bizarre romanticizing of his actions that is my problem. He wasn't a hero to turn to the darkside, he wasn't making a noble sacrifice to conquer the Republic, even to prepare it for the Sith. What he did was villainous, even if he had a noble goal. His actions weren't necessary or heroic. He's just a smarter and more powerful Bengel Morr. He also wanted to destroy the Sith, but wanted to purge the Jedi to do it. A villain with a semi-sympathetic objective is still a villain. The fact that she essentially seems to try to excuse his actions makes me even more dismissive of both of them.

Edited by OldVengeance
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If your talking about the current Great Galatic War, I'm afraid your wrong. Canonically the Empire are losing.

 

Wow. That's an entire other debate right there. I don't want to start a argument, but I think that Sith are winning (by a little bit).

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Wow. That's an entire other debate right there. I don't want to start a argument, but I think that Sith are winning (by a little bit).

 

No, it is not a debate, the Encyclopedia tells us that the Empire is getting trashed right now, by themselves just as much as by the Republic, whom by the way, have the two most powerful Jedi of the era alongside Satele Shan going for them, on top of that you have Havoc Squad and IIRC an entire smuggling fleet stealing tons of supplies every day from the Imps, the Empire is not looking very good atm.

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No, it is not a debate, the Encyclopedia tells us that the Empire is getting trashed right now, by themselves just as much as by the Republic, whom by the way, have the two most powerful Jedi of the era alongside Satele Shan going for them, on top of that you have Havoc Squad and IIRC an entire smuggling fleet stealing tons of supplies every day from the Imps, the Empire is not looking very good atm.

 

OK here goes.

 

Remember the timeline stuff? Remember how much the Empire was dominating? I don't think that a few victories for the Republic can counter all that.

 

I'd bet that the Empire has more raw numbers, more supplies, and stuff.

 

Yes the Empire ain't doing so great right now, but they're just experiencing a recession. They'll be back (although I'm totally rooting for the good guys).

 

As for the encyclopedia, I'm sure you're right. But did it say that the Republic was actually doing better and winning the war? Or did it just say that the Sith weren't doing so hot at the moment?

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No, it is not a debate, the Encyclopedia tells us that the Empire is getting trashed right now, by themselves just as much as by the Republic, whom by the way, have the two most powerful Jedi of the era alongside Satele Shan going for them, on top of that you have Havoc Squad and IIRC an entire smuggling fleet stealing tons of supplies every day from the Imps, the Empire is not looking very good atm.

 

Hmm, I guess I was wrong. But it really felt like they were losing..

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The problem with Revan's motive is that after Kotor, both games that came after retconned them so his story is disjointed because it kept changing.

 

In essence it's:

Kotor 1 motives: Conquer the Republic for power.

Kotor 2 motives: Conquer the Republic to make it stronger under his rule (and power).

Tor motives: Mind controlled to attacked the Republic by the Emperor and he then broke free to did it for himself.

It can work though. Seeing as Revan was always evil and the mandalorians wars only begun his slide, we can assume something gave him the final push. I mean don't you think its a bit strange that he ran off into the unknown regions then came back a sith lord bent of conquering the republic, without the TOR arc it makes no sense. Basically be combine KOTOR 2 motives and TOR motives. He found the Emperor, fell to the dark side, broke away from his control then went on a campaign to reforge the Republic so he could defeat the Emperor. The fact he had fell to the dark side and was corrupted by it, made him make this decision.

I think Kotor 2 was inferior to most Star Wars stories, for exactly the reason that it isn't good vs evil. Star Wars supposed to be a story about good and evil, by taking that away it basically turned the story into something else. Which wouldn't be a problem if this wasn't supposed to be a Star Wars story.

Sometimes its nice to have a change, things aren't always black and white. I agree it felt different from normal Star Wars, but I didn't resent it, I enjoyed its originality.

 

Nor do I think that Kreia's questioning the rules of Star Wars "worked" at all. All she did says follow you saying things that were either lies, wrong or insane. Nothing she said at all was wise or legitimately profound and I could pretty much safely ignore everything she told me. She was just annoying and useless. In fact I guess she was less than useless since she was the main villain and actively working against you. I came away from every final battle with her in my Kotor 2 playthroughs, happy I was finally rid of her insane ramblings. The fact that the game seemed to insist she was right made it all the more absurd and infuriating. The game seems to tell you she wins in the end because you gave her what she wanted but that makes no sense if I felt like I was ready to forget I ever met her.

Not going to argue with you here, seeing as its a point of view, but most people would disagree with you. GameSpy didn't make her the best character of the year for nothing. I think her dialogue was beautifully written and voiced, almost everyone who has played KOTOR 2 says that Kreia's questions about compassion made them stop and think. Of course some of the things she said are highly controversial and arguably wrong. But I think her main message was important. That Jedi and Sith should try not to be so dependant on the Force, and that if you have become so dependant on it that you can't live without it, you don't deserve to live. Its sad that you found her annoying and useless.

 

EDIT: Kreia is in fact, an anti-hero. She realises she has fallen to far and done to much to do any good in the galaxy. And that she can never become a Jedi or Sith. But she sees that you can - she puts her faith in you, faith that you can be her last and greatest pupil who will defeat the threats of the galaxy (Sion and Nihilus) and make the galaxy 'see'.

 

But again, thats your opinion. But I will correct you on a few things. She wasn't the main villain, far far from it. Nihilus was the main villain, hence his blown up face being the cover of the box art where the villain always is in star wars posters. She wasn't working against you, her motives were to understand you and get you to understand yourself. She never wanted to kill you, that was a test. You or rather Meetra was proof of her beliefs, that you can live without the Force. Thats why she won in the end, because you realised what you were, and she believed you would help future Jedi yo try and be less dependant on the Force. Maybe her companions learned from Meetra, and maybe thats why the Order of the Prequels is not as arrogant and fanatic as the OR council.

Edited by Beniboybling
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I think Kotor 2 was inferior to most Star Wars stories, for exactly the reason that it isn't good vs evil. Star Wars supposed to be a story about good and evil, by taking that away it basically turned the story into something else. Which wouldn't be a problem if this wasn't supposed to be a Star Wars story.

 

That logic also states Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion are both inferior to the Hobbit for not speaking to it's children's story roots.

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OK here goes.

 

Remember the timeline stuff? Remember how much the Empire was dominating? I don't think that a few victories for the Republic can counter all that.

 

I'd bet that the Empire has more raw numbers, more supplies, and stuff.

 

Yes the Empire ain't doing so great right now, but they're just experiencing a recession. They'll be back (although I'm totally rooting for the good guys).

 

As for the encyclopedia, I'm sure you're right. But did it say that the Republic was actually doing better and winning the war? Or did it just say that the Sith weren't doing so hot at the moment?

 

No, the Republic is well and truly devastating the Empire right now, it is stated outright, the Empire is in chaos because Sith are killing each other in power plays left right and center.

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OK here goes.

 

Remember the timeline stuff? Remember how much the Empire was dominating? I don't think that a few victories for the Republic can counter all that.

 

I'd bet that the Empire has more raw numbers, more supplies, and stuff.

 

Yes the Empire ain't doing so great right now, but they're just experiencing a recession. They'll be back (although I'm totally rooting for the good guys).

 

As for the encyclopedia, I'm sure you're right. But did it say that the Republic was actually doing better and winning the war? Or did it just say that the Sith weren't doing so hot at the moment?

It says, and I quote "The Republic holds the advantage in the war against the Empire....for the first time since the war broke out, victory is in sight..." It then goes on to say how the Empire are recovering from the Darth Malgus fiasco and how "rampant dissatisfaction rots the core of the Empire", morale is low etcera etcera.

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OK here goes.

 

Remember the timeline stuff? Remember how much the Empire was dominating? I don't think that a few victories for the Republic can counter all that.

 

I'd bet that the Empire has more raw numbers, more supplies, and stuff.

 

Yes the Empire ain't doing so great right now, but they're just experiencing a recession. They'll be back (although I'm totally rooting for the good guys).

 

As for the encyclopedia, I'm sure you're right. But did it say that the Republic was actually doing better and winning the war? Or did it just say that the Sith weren't doing so hot at the moment?

 

Spoilers follow...

 

 

The Emperor is MIA after an encounter with one of the most powerful Jedi of that time. Some of the most powerful Sith (Children of the Emperor) are scattered and the First is defeated. The Empire lost a great General who would have pretty much handed the Empire the Republic on a silver platter with the info from the Bastion. The Star of the Underworld has IIRC an entire fleet at his command that is pretty much picking the Empire apart with several raids.

 

Imperial Intelligence has collapsed after the incident with the Star Cabal. Several powerful members of the Dark Council are dead, including Thanaton, Baras and others. Darth Tormen is also dead. Darth Malgus has shaken the Empire's foundation after The False Emperor and the Dread Masters are on the loose. This could bode well for the Empire IF the Emperor can come back and reign them in.

 

The Empire is beaten back and the Republic is consolidating their forces for another assault. I have no doubt that the Empire will come back, but right now it's not good.

 

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Spoilers follow...

 

 

The Emperor is MIA after an encounter with one of the most powerful Jedi of that time. Some of the most powerful Sith (Children of the Emperor) are scattered and the First is defeated. The Empire lost a great General who would have pretty much handed the Empire the Republic on a silver platter with the info from the Bastion. The Star of the Underworld has IIRC an entire fleet at his command that is pretty much picking the Empire apart with several raids.

 

Imperial Intelligence has collapsed after the incident with the Star Cabal. Several powerful members of the Dark Council are dead, including Thanaton, Baras and others. Darth Tormen is also dead. Darth Malgus has shaken the Empire's foundation after The False Emperor and the Dread Masters are on the loose. This could bode well for the Empire IF the Emperor can come back and reign them in.

 

The Empire is beaten back and the Republic is consolidating their forces for another assault. I have no doubt that the Empire will come back, but right now it's not good.

 

Ah. Point taken.

 

So would I be right to say that the Sith are losing MOSTLY because of internal chaos?

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Ah. Point taken.

 

So would I be right to say that the Sith are losing MOSTLY because of internal chaos?

 

Yes. Sith infighting really killed their efforts on Corellia and beyond, but even then it seems that the Republic would still have pushed them back.

 

 

The Jedi Knight lead the Jedi Order against the Empire and invaded Dromund Kaas. The Jedi Consular eliminated several of the Empire's most powerful Sith. The Trooper defeated General Rakton and prevented him from getting Republic secret startegies and battle plans to the Empire. The Smuggler is doing what he does best: giving the Empire all the trouble they can handle.

 

Edited by Aurbere
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That logic also states Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion are both inferior to the Hobbit for not speaking to it's children's story roots.

 

Lord of the Rings is still a story of good and evil. If they had tried to muddy both sides up, against the grain of many previous stories, to the degree Kotor 2 did it would be different.

Edited by OldVengeance
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Lord of the Rings is still a story of good and evil. If they had tried to muddy both sides up, against the grain of many previous stories, to the degree Kotor 2 did it would be different.

 

My point isn't about good vs evil, my point is that Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion must be inferior to the Hobbit, for not sticking to it's children's story roots, which is what Middle Earth originally was, about a Hobbit and some dwarves that did silly things with a funny creature called Gollum who hid in a cave, until Tolkien decided to write the Lord of the Rings when asked for a short story.

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Spoilers follow...

 

 

The Emperor is MIA after an encounter with one of the most powerful Jedi of that time. Some of the most powerful Sith (Children of the Emperor) are scattered and the First is defeated. The Empire lost a great General who would have pretty much handed the Empire the Republic on a silver platter with the info from the Bastion. The Star of the Underworld has IIRC an entire fleet at his command that is pretty much picking the Empire apart with several raids.

 

Imperial Intelligence has collapsed after the incident with the Star Cabal. Several powerful members of the Dark Council are dead, including Thanaton, Baras and others. Darth Tormen is also dead. Darth Malgus has shaken the Empire's foundation after The False Emperor and the Dread Masters are on the loose. This could bode well for the Empire IF the Emperor can come back and reign them in.

 

The Empire is beaten back and the Republic is consolidating their forces for another assault. I have no doubt that the Empire will come back, but right now it's not good.

It is most certainly time for an Imperial come back - For the Empire!

 

 

I thought Tormen's death was a light/dark choice. So if you count dark side choices for imperials as canon, he is still alive.

 

Edited by Beniboybling
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