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Bring back Mara?


jaguarclaw

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(Apologies if this has been discussed to death before; I don't check these forums that often. Also, spoilers for old books.)

So I know Star Wars doesn't really do the whole "bringing dead characters back to life" thing like the Marvelverse does (or Trek did) after the Palpatine-cloning thing blew up in everyone's faces, but I genuinely do think it would be justified in the case of Mara Jade. Seriously, of all the characters to kill, that one makes very, very little sense. Chewie I could understand, in that he had long since ceased to be all that significant. Anakin Solo made sense as well, to up the odds and bring the emotional pain along with the whole "losing Coruscant" thing.

 

But Mara was still an important character, with a lot of fan and authorial support. She was killed off by a different author than the one who created her, without that original author's input, which just screams sloppiness and worse, simple selfishness. It left her whole story on a bitter note, and that fact that Zahn is still willing to write stories featuring her shows that there is still an attachment to the character amongst Lucasfilm (or whoever manages the books specifically).

 

Frankly, I think Zahn and the Lucasfilm people should just take the next step and bring her back. Traviss has had to be retconned before (the Mandos and their OP-ness, for instance), so her worst mistake should be fixed as well. There's already been so much weird Force-********-whatever surrounding her and letting her temporarily return as a ghost that they may as well just take the plunge.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Edited by jaguarclaw
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Mara's death, while the scene itself was bad, does make some sense. You have to realize that Jacen was trying to turn Ben to the Darkside. What better way than to kill his mother? It just so happens that Karen Traviss killed her off. KT hated Mara Jade, and Jedi as a wwhole. She didn't listen to the other authors.

 

Being a huge Mara Jade fan, I would hate it if they brought her back to life at this point. I would like to see her death scene re-written to give her a better, more fitting death. But since she is dead, and I hate saying this, she should remain dead. Bringing her back wpuld be a huge undertaking. How would it even be done? Luke would not want her to be cloned, so that would eliminate that idea.

 

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Mara's death, while the scene itself was bad, does make some sense. You have to realize that Jacen was trying to turn Ben to the Darkside. What better way than to kill his mother? It just so happens that Karen Traviss killed her off. KT hated Mara Jade, and Jedi as a wwhole. She didn't listen to the other authors.

 

Being a huge Mara Jade fan, I would hate it if they brought her back to life at this point. I would like to see her death scene re-written to give her a better, more fitting death. But since she is dead, and I hate saying this, she should remain dead. Bringing her back wpuld be a huge undertaking. How would it even be done? Luke would not want her to be cloned, so that would eliminate that idea.

 

 

Could just retcon it? But ya...I think its gone passed the point, am sure a lot of people would want her back but as it stands now...if she is things may need to be tweaked here and there.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Mara's death, while the scene itself was bad, does make some sense. You have to realize that Jacen was trying to turn Ben to the Darkside. What better way than to kill his mother? It just so happens that Karen Traviss killed her off. KT hated Mara Jade, and Jedi as a wwhole. She didn't listen to the other authors.

 

Being a huge Mara Jade fan, I would hate it if they brought her back to life at this point. I would like to see her death scene re-written to give her a better, more fitting death. But since she is dead, and I hate saying this, she should remain dead. Bringing her back wpuld be a huge undertaking. How would it even be done? Luke would not want her to be cloned, so that would eliminate that idea.

 

 

KT may hate Jedi (why the hell did they ever let her write anything but those Republic Commando books? it boggles the mind), but I recall in some interview they did with her that said she actually really liked Mara (presumably moreso before she became a Jedi), and had a hard time writing the scene. And even though it may have made sense, the fact of the matter is likely that had she not taken unilateral action in not checking with Zahn (which any author with any sense would do), it would not have been approved.

And I don't think anything should be retroactively changed, but I'm sure they could magic up some kind of explanation for a resurrection - they have brought people back from basically force-ghost-status before, just not very much lately. Cloning is right out, but I'm sure there could be some sort of way to do it that isn't totally stupid.

And hey, it's only been a handful of years. SW has done weirder things than let presumably-dead characters come back in that span of time.

Edited by jaguarclaw
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KT may hate Jedi (why the hell did they ever let her write anything but those Republic Commando books? it boggles the mind), but I recall in some interview they did with her that said she actually really liked Mara (presumably moreso before she became a Jedi), and had a hard time writing the scene. And even though it may have made sense, the fact of the matter is likely that had she not taken unilateral action in not checking with Zahn (which any author with any sense would do), it would not have been approved.

And I don't think anything should be retroactively changed, but I'm sure they could magic up some kind of explanation for a resurrection - they have brought people back from basically force-ghost-status before, just not very much lately. Cloning is right out, but I'm sure there could be some sort of way to do it that isn't totally stupid.

And hey, it's only been a handful of years. SW has done weirder things than let presumably-dead characters come back in that span of time.

 

KT should have talked to Zahn before writting anything. Hell, I wish she stuck with just the RC novels. Maybe the wuthors can put their collective creative minds together and figure out an epic way to bring Mara back. She deserves nothing less because she is an epic character. I would love it if she were still alive. I just don't want her return to be lame like her death. KT should have left that to Zahn himself.

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Kilikaa, we completely agree.

I mean, let's be realistic here: they've already done so much with Mara in the last few years - I think she may have gotten more time and character development in as a Force-ghost than Obi-Wan(probably), Anakin, or Yoda ever did. Zahn wants to write a new series about her, and he was originally planning it on not being a prequel, with her not dead. She's already gotten another prequel-ish book in that series' place.

They may as well just bring her back.

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Kilikaa, we completely agree.

I mean, let's be realistic here: they've already done so much with Mara in the last few years - I think she may have gotten more time and character development in as a Force-ghost than Obi-Wan(probably), Anakin, or Yoda ever did. Zahn wants to write a new series about her, and he was originally planning it on not being a prequel, with her not dead. She's already gotten another prequel-ish book in that series' place.

They may as well just bring her back.

 

I would love a story written where she finds Jacen's Force ghost and kicks hiss arse over and over. Then Luke finds a way to bring her back to life. Maybe bring Jacen back just so the whole family can take turns beating the crap out of him again. lol:D Don't get me wrong, I loved Jacen too. Thought he made a great villian. But he deserves a series of beatings.

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No, KT didn't hate Jedi, she didn't even hate Mara. That's a misconception because she usually writes about Mandos instead. But she gets a bad rep for killing Mara. She was the one who suggested Mara be the one to die -- so she carried it out. Logical. Would Aaron Allston be getting the "Jedi hater" rep just because he focused on X-wing pilots, if he killed Mara. Cut KT some slack, eh?
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No, KT didn't hate Jedi, she didn't even hate Mara. That's a misconception because she usually writes about Mandos instead. But she gets a bad rep for killing Mara. She was the one who suggested Mara be the one to die -- so she carried it out. Logical. Would Aaron Allston be getting the "Jedi hater" rep just because he focused on X-wing pilots, if he killed Mara. Cut KT some slack, eh?

It goes a little bit deeper than that, I think. An interesting interview:

http://www.karentraviss.com/page10/files/Is_it_true_you_hate_Jedi_.html

Note she kinda sidesteps the question, but it ultimately comes down to a few points.

 

- She "doesn't hate Jedi", because if you hate fictional things, you're insane. Ok, sure, whatever.

 

- She says that essentially, Jedi must be accepted to be flawed and real people, not genetically gifted demigods incapable of immoral actions. Any reasonable person can accept this.

 

- Then she goes into this kinda weird thing where she says, in not so many words, that the acceptance of the clone army was the moral event horizon for the Jedi, and they basically compromised their morality there, and from what I can tell from her perspective, this mindset continues into the NJO era.

 

Traviss' rep as a Jedi hater came way before Mara was killed (which certainly didn't disprove the idea). People aren't offended on this end by her suggestion that Jedi aren't perfect (they aren't), but that she constantly shoves the Jedi aside in favor of her uber-OP Mandos and (not so OP) Republic commandos.

 

In the RC books, this kinda made sense, as there is a genuine argument to be made that the Jedi ****ed up majorly there on several levels, compromising their morality, and they were primarily dealing with weaker Jedi and stupid Jedi...essentially, the people you'd expect to not exactly be the ideal people to lead and fight, next to the Commandos. There was a reason for them to be awesome and righteous and the Jedi not.

 

But in her NJO books, this gets taken to a ludicrous extreme with how awesome the Mandos (clone expies, of course) are in comparison to the Jedi, who, under Luke have changed a lot in terms of their thinking and ideology to be less elitist. There's an argument to be made, certainly, over whether Luke's NJO would have accepted the clones had they been in charge back then. But suddenly, Traviss goes right back to the "Clones/Mandos are not just the equal of the Jedi but BETTER" school of thought: they have better armor, better training, better weapons, better vehicles...and other authors had to retcon this to make it more realistic.

 

This is the core of the objection - if this was just her RC series, it would make more sense, but her NJO books kinda prove that she does have, if anything, a pro-Mando/Clone bias that comes directly at the expense of the Jedi, which compromises the storytelling to a noticeable degree. Mara getting killed off was just another proof of that mindset.

 

And DON'T YOU DRAG ALLSTON INTO THIS! He's my favorite ever SW writer! :p

And yeah, he focuses a lot on X-Wing pilots, but it never feels like it comes at the expense of anyone else, like Traviss with the Jedi. Allston can write Jedi excellently, I think.

Edited by jaguarclaw
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As a long time fan of the EU i love Mara Jade but i would hate to see them bring her back. Luke saw her when he was doing the whole out of body thing. Can't remember what they called that. Cade Skywalker saw her force ghost in the legacy comics but thats a good way into the future. She could make more appearance as a force ghost but bringing her back wouldnt make sense. And if she was cloned she'd just end up going crazy cause thats what happens to clones of force users.

 

I would love to see more books about her as a Jedi I believe theres a 5 year gap between the NJO books and the Dark Nest trilogy.

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As a long time fan of the EU i love Mara Jade but i would hate to see them bring her back. Luke saw her when he was doing the whole out of body thing. Can't remember what they called that. Cade Skywalker saw her force ghost in the legacy comics but thats a good way into the future. She could make more appearance as a force ghost but bringing her back wouldnt make sense. And if she was cloned she'd just end up going crazy cause thats what happens to clones of force users.

 

I would love to see more books about her as a Jedi I believe theres a 5 year gap between the NJO books and the Dark Nest trilogy.

 

Ever since the first few EU books they ever did, where Obi-Wan basically said "We're not going to show up any more to help you because it's getting harder and harder for us to do so, and you'll be fine anyway" and then never came back, the whole Force Ghost thing has kinda been a bit of a crutch when it is used, because the implication is that for whatever reason, it's just not practical for Ben and Yoda and Anakin and any others to consistently show up anymore. The sheer amount Mara has already shown up as a ghost/force-being/whatever is already straining the plausibility of the whole idea. it could easily be seen as the other authors stretching the rules in a desperate attempt to cover for Mara's death, that wasn't really planned on or welcomed in the plot.

 

And yeah, Cade also saw Luke, implying that Luke dies at some point. Which of course will never, ever be actually written in in any way if Lucasfilm knows what's good for them, because no one would be cool with it, either in the basic concept or execution. Frankly, Mara could be revived and have the Luke-style implied death in the intervening, what, 150 years? It's a long damn time (besides, I don't really see Legacy as canon. maybe it's just me, but still).

 

If she's going to be a constant force-ghost fixture, just bring her back and cut out the middleman.

 

And yes, no clones. But why use clones when you have Plot Spackle, excuse me, the Force?

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I wish Pelly was still alive. But he’s not, and neither is Mara. One of course could form a significantly better argument for bringing her back than the late admiral, but I think death has been cheapened far too much in star wars as it is. I love both Gil and Mara and I wish they hadn't been offed, but I think it's for the best that she stays dead.
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well seeing as the entire post ROTJ EU is going to be reset when Episode 7 comes out..

Yeah, naw. If you think they're wiping the slate entirely clean, it's not happening.

Lucas has said his stance on the EU has basically been that is it a divergent universe - that there are two SW timelines, one including just his movies/shows, and another consisting of the movies, shows, and everything else in the EU.

In his mind, he or Disney isn't overwriting/resetting anything, as the second universe has never really been something he cared about or involved himself in. There's more than enough space for both to exist, and the SW books set in the EU universe still sell well. Plus, poor Leland Chee would be basically out of a job if all that got tossed out the window.

I hate to keep comparing, but there's essentially going to be 2 markedly different Star Wars universes now (I would think), not unlike the Marvel Universe/Ultimate Universe split.

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Ok first, nobody gets to own the characters in a multi-author universe like this. If Zahn wants creative control of his characters for a lifetime, he can get that in his own intellectual properties.

 

Killing Mara was one of the pivotal moments in the series. I thought Jacen would realize how much he was getting played when it reached that point, but he didn't. And then things exploded from there.

 

Now I may even agree that I didn't necessarily like the LOTF series, but that doesn't change the fact that her death was the pivotal moment in the series. It had to be done to tell the story in the way it was going to be told.

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(Apologies if this has been discussed to death before; I don't check these forums that often. Also, spoilers for old books.)

So I know Star Wars doesn't really do the whole "bringing dead characters back to life" thing like the Marvelverse does (or Trek did) after the Palpatine-cloning thing blew up in everyone's faces, but I genuinely do think it would be justified in the case of Mara Jade. Seriously, of all the characters to kill, that one makes very, very little sense. Chewie I could understand, in that he had long since ceased to be all that significant. Anakin Solo made sense as well, to up the odds and bring the emotional pain along with the whole "losing Coruscant" thing.

 

But Mara was still an important character, with a lot of fan and authorial support. She was killed off by a different author than the one who created her, without that original author's input, which just screams sloppiness and worse, simple selfishness. It left her whole story on a bitter note, and that fact that Zahn is still willing to write stories featuring her shows that there is still an attachment to the character amongst Lucasfilm (or whoever manages the books specifically).

 

Frankly, I think Zahn and the Lucasfilm people should just take the next step and bring her back. Traviss has had to be retconned before (the Mandos and their OP-ness, for instance), so her worst mistake should be fixed as well. There's already been so much weird Force-********-whatever surrounding her and letting her temporarily return as a ghost that they may as well just take the plunge.

Anyone else feel the same way?

 

No dead is dead. she even turned into a force ghost. No more clone repossession crap. What's done is done. She was going to die anyway.

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Ok first, nobody gets to own the characters in a multi-author universe like this. If Zahn wants creative control of his characters for a lifetime, he can get that in his own intellectual properties.

True, but even so, it's also standard procedure to, you know, check with other people involved in the thing before unilaterally acting to kill an important and potentially character off.

Killing Mara was one of the pivotal moments in the series. I thought Jacen would realize how much he was getting played when it reached that point, but he didn't. And then things exploded from there.

IE, got ridiculously stupid.

Now I may even agree that I didn't necessarily like the LOTF series, but that doesn't change the fact that her death was the pivotal moment in the series. It had to be done to tell the story in the way it was going to be told.

Are you actually Karen Traviss?

Because here's the thing: according to Wookiepedia, Traviss thought up killing Mara as she was already writing Sacrifice, and purely on her own.

It wasn't a pivotal moment, or part of some existing plan. It was Traviss' whim, because she thought it would make things more interesting. The other authors in the series had to scramble to change things in their books, and I believe they had to do rewrites as well to cover Mara being dead. It manifestly did not have to be done - the pivotal point (to me, anyway) was Jacen essentially turning into Vader on Coruscant, executing innocent people left and right, to say nothing of his acceptance of the title of Caedus.

Zahn may not have total ownership, but that doesn't mean that authors should be allowed, in a multi-author series like this, to just change important **** around on what amounts to a whim.

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No dead is dead. she even turned into a force ghost.

So did Callista, technically, and she got brought back.

No more clone repossession crap.

Of course, because it isn't necessary anyway.

What's done is done. She was going to die anyway.

I trust you mean in Cade's series? Yeah, that's 150 years in the future. Everyone's dead by then, but if, say, Luke got killed off in some manifestly stupid way in the current series they have going, I trust people would be angry about that as well, and rightfully so. Just because it's inevitable doesn't necessarily mean anything goes.

Edited by jaguarclaw
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Callista is different, because she possessed a ship then someone willingly let her possess them and eventually in the fate of the jedi series she was valuable to the plot.coughAblelothcough;)

Still, though.

In SW, dead is USUALLY dead, but there are rare exceptions. Callista is one of them. It's not impossible, and I think would be justified.

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She didn't act unilaterally. I've read extensively on the writing process for the recent multi-author series and it's a team effort. Zahn was not on the team. In addition to initial outlines for the whole series designed by the whole writing team, there are ongoing discussions amongst them as well as editorial and content oversite by both Del Ray and Lucas Arts.

 

What Travvis has become is the "fall guy" for an unpopular decision. I'm sure RA Salvatore is glad she's come along to become the new whipping person. But by no means did they just get to kill characters on a whim.

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She didn't act unilaterally. I've read extensively on the writing process for the recent multi-author series and it's a team effort. Zahn was not on the team. In addition to initial outlines for the whole series designed by the whole writing team, there are ongoing discussions amongst them as well as editorial and content oversite by both Del Ray and Lucas Arts.

 

What Travvis has become is the "fall guy" for an unpopular decision. I'm sure RA Salvatore is glad she's come along to become the new whipping person. But by no means did they just get to kill characters on a whim.

 

KT may have not done it on a whim, but she still wrote a very poor death scene. Outside of her Commando novels, Traviss was not a very good SW author. She even did a poor job writing Jaina Solo in the Revelation novel. I am fine with Mara being dead. I am not fine with the way her death was handled. Mara deserved a more epic death. Zahn should have been consultated, as well. His input would have been very important considering Mara Jade was his character. KT is not just the "fall guy" for a unpopular decision. Her decision is hated because of how poorly it was handled.

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She didn't act unilaterally. I've read extensively on the writing process for the recent multi-author series and it's a team effort. Zahn was not on the team. In addition to initial outlines for the whole series designed by the whole writing team, there are ongoing discussions amongst them as well as editorial and content oversite by both Del Ray and Lucas Arts.

 

What Travvis has become is the "fall guy" for an unpopular decision. I'm sure RA Salvatore is glad she's come along to become the new whipping person. But by no means did they just get to kill characters on a whim.

 

Yeah, an unpopular decision that she admitted she came up with on her own, plugged for, and insisted to Lucasfilm that she write, that also fit into her own visible and unpopular biases. She's a "fall guy" like a guilty criminal is a "fall guy" - it was entirely her idea and her decision and her action.

 

I don't think Lucasfilm/Del Ray cares too much about keeping characters alive, from what I've read there never seems to have ever been much of a debate when they talk about the process of killing characters off, whether it was Chewie, Anakin, or Mara. Lucasfilm just kinda leaves the authors alone, as they know Lucas doesn't really care. The fact they were willing to accept what Traviss was pushing doesn't mean it was worth doing, necessarily.

 

And I never quite got why so many people hated RA Salvatore - the SW book series as a whole was getting so trite and the characters so unchanging by that point, something had to give. And Chewie was an expendable character at that point.

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