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Fix ranked - Ideas on how to make it better (For MikeB)


Lhancelot

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After brainstorming today, I figured I would create a condensed thread of ideas to improve Ranked PVP. Hopefully others add their ideas.

 

The sole purpose of this thread is to not create a battlefield of arguments over semantics but instead give us a place where we can add ideas on how to improve ranked PVP. Right now, it's in pretty poor shape.

 

Improvements to ranked PVP would bring in subs, make PVPers happier, and overall make the game better. Really it doesn't make any sense letting it rot the way it has for the last few years.

 

I honestly believe BW have ideas alrready, but maybe some of these ideas listed will reinforce them to make some specific changes sooner than later.

 

 

 

Ideas on How to Make Ranked PVP Better:

 

 

 

1. This is an easy one. Remove Vote-Kick. Only losers and cheaters use it to abuse it.

 

 

2. Musco once asked a few years ago when he was scorned into communicating with us that he had an offer for us... For the players of SWTOR - he asked if we wanted frequent small class changes to balance finer details, or did we want large sweeping patches that would come much less frequently but with far more change.

 

Obviously, frequent small changes is best, and 100% of the forum posters responded accordingly that YES, we would prefer smaller frequent patches to address class imbalance.

 

What happened to the follow up on that Eric? Remember when you asked the forums this? I remember. Maybe be a responsible and address your own query that was answered by us now, that sure would be swell.

 

 

3. Add a gear gap to enter ranked. This can be done in a less restrictive manner by making it so the requirement is simply having full 306 rated gears, or go further with aug requirements and other.

 

 

4. Add in rewards for WZ completions. More tech frags. More gear drops. Make it so PVP is a viable way to gear up! This can also be added to ranked, which is why I add this change for all PVP with this specific thread made for ranked PVP. In this same vein, BW can consider adding back crafting mat rewards to encourage more participation in ranked. Those who participated in ranked group have claimed the population was much better with that one addition. Maybe that would be good to add back to the game.

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I completely agree with your suggestions, except for adding mats back to group ranked. My position has softened on that, but I'm still not convinced that that's the best solution. Farming mat farmers shouldn't allow mediocre teams and players to get top rewards. Maybe if Bioware made different flairs and titles for group ranked vs solo ranked, that would address my concern, but I doubt that will ever happen.
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1. Add a 2v2 unranked and ranked queue. 4 Less players = more chances of getting games. Less intimidating than 4v4 and offers newer players a chance to get better and learn how different classes work.

 

2. Need a rating/ELO system that works efficiently and doesn't deter players from queueing because they are afraid of getting stomped/flamed/trolled. 5-10 placement games and then a rating system with parameters on how high of a rating you can match with.

 

3. More desirable awards and I want to break this down into 2 separate categories. First an incentive to get people to queue whether it be mats, items, tech etc.. normal gives watered down version and ranked gives a bolstered version or something you can't get in regs. I would also add a big incentive for people that play 100,200,300 ranked games a season, give rewards just for queueing. 2v2 and 4v4 have different rewards (4v4 being more desirable).

 

Then for the people that want to grind rank and rating. Add specific rewards for certain rating tiers (flairs, titles, items, armor sets you cant get anywhere else, credit bonuses) Besides wanting to be the best there has to be a reward for grinding and being better than other people.

 

4. Requirements for entering ranked queue: Level 75, certain item level required, and I would even put a potential number of regs played account wide.

 

5. Lastly a very strict cheating policy. BioWare needs to crack down on any wind of wintrading, botting, etc.. with a potential higher population it would hopefully be tougher. I would like to see an MVP vote and rewards for getting voted MVP. People will abuse any kind of voting system, but a potential 'block' button that would prevent you from queueing with certain trolls for a certain number of games. With the small population and elitest behavior I could see this getting abused but just an idea. Also, you lose rating by not playing after a certain amount of time.

 

That's my 2 cents, hope it spurs some conversation and more ideas.

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After brainstorming today, I figured I would create a condensed thread of ideas to improve Ranked PVP. Hopefully others add their ideas.

 

The sole purpose of this thread is to not create a battlefield of arguments over semantics but instead give us a place where we can add ideas on how to improve ranked PVP. Right now, it's in pretty poor shape.

 

Improvements to ranked PVP would bring in subs, make PVPers happier, and overall make the game better. Really it doesn't make any sense letting it rot the way it has for the last few years.

 

I honestly believe BW have ideas alrready, but maybe some of these ideas listed will reinforce them to make some specific changes sooner than later.

 

 

 

Ideas on How to Make Ranked PVP Better:

 

 

 

1. This is an easy one. Remove Vote-Kick. Only losers and cheaters use it to abuse it.

 

 

2. Musco once asked a few years ago when he was scorned into communicating with us that he had an offer for us... For the players of SWTOR - he asked if we wanted frequent small class changes to balance finer details, or did we want large sweeping patches that would come much less frequently but with far more change.

 

Obviously, frequent small changes is best, and 100% of the forum posters responded accordingly that YES, we would prefer smaller frequent patches to address class imbalance.

 

What happened to the follow up on that Eric? Remember when you asked the forums this? I remember. Maybe be a responsible and address your own query that was answered by us now, that sure would be swell.

 

 

3. Add a gear gap to enter ranked. This can be done in a less restrictive manner by making it so the requirement is simply having full 306 rated gears, or go further with aug requirements and other.

 

 

4. Add in rewards for WZ completions. More tech frags. More gear drops. Make it so PVP is a viable way to gear up! This can also be added to ranked, which is why I add this change for all PVP with this specific thread made for ranked PVP. In this same vein, BW can consider adding back crafting mat rewards to encourage more participation in ranked. Those who participated in ranked group have claimed the population was much better with that one addition. Maybe that would be good to add back to the game.

 

I support the OP(s) Suggestions 100% w/ emphasis on removing vote kick.

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Theres a .0000000001% chance that anyone at BW will actually read this thread lol

 

But since we are all just shouting into the ether, I'll tack on another suggestion: Prevent matchmaking from putting more than 2 of the same class on a team.

 

Yesterday I had a game where one team had 4 DPS Mercs on it. Yeah, that went as well as you'd imagine for the other team

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Wishlist for deaf ears:

 

1. Allow utility changes before timer starts. Do I need to play defensive or offensive based on the enemy team composition? Tacticals are changeable and they are just an extension of the utility system anyway.

 

2. Shrink Solo Ranked to 3v3. The population just isn't there to support consistent 8-man matches. Also, since the burst is currently really high, this will alleviate an additional source of burst pressure the focus target has to survive through.

 

3. For Solo Ranked, allow only 1 "support" class (heals/tanks) to be on a team with 2 others required to be DPS. Compositions consist of 1 Healer + 2 DPS or 1 Tank + 2 DPS. One DPS is not enough to kill through Guard and Healing.

No one wants to fight 2 tanks or 2 healers.

 

4. A gear requirement of 306 for both Solo Ranked and Group Ranked. I believe they have had a similar policy in place before some expansions ago. You could not queue unless you had all 2018 expertise rating, iirc.

 

5. Change the ELO rating system. Bonus points for a winning streak and a decreasing point loss for losing streaks. More reward for winning and less punishing for unfortunate losses due to throwing, wintrading, cheating, etc. This might actually cause more wintrading in Grouped Ranked but might work for Solo Ranked.

 

6. Set aside some new Cartel Market items for Ranked rewards. I suspect a lot of people save their monthly CC stipend for cool CM items and don't actually buy CC directly. Keeping us chasing the "carrot on a stick" gear rewards will keep us subscribed and shift new cosmetics away from the CM and into actual game content.

 

No thoughts on Group Ranked nor how the above changes would affect it.

Edited by SlimPikinz
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1. Allow utility changes before timer starts. Do I need to play defensive or offensive based on the enemy team composition? Tacticals are changeable and they are just an extension of the utility system anyway.

 

Tacticals aren't supposed to be changeable during the arena anyways.

 

2. Shrink Solo Ranked to 3v3. The population just isn't there to support consistent 8-man matches. Also, since the burst is currently really high, this will alleviate an additional source of burst pressure the focus target has to survive through.

 

What....? You do understand that the 4v4 meta is build with 2 support classes whose role is to alleviate the pressure?

 

 

No one wants to fight 2 tanks or 2 healers.

 

Again... what...?

 

5. less punishing for unfortunate losses due to throwing, wintrading, cheating, etc.

 

If Bioware could detect throwing, wintrading, and cheating in real time in their matches, don't you think they would have done something about it?

 

6. Set aside some new Cartel Market items for Ranked rewards.

 

Bioware already sets aside Cartel Market items for ranked Rewards. It's called reskins.

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Tacticals aren't supposed to be changeable during the arena anyways.

 

But they are so, do one or the other. You'd rather be locked into Tacticals as well?

 

What....? You do understand that the 4v4 meta is build with 2 support classes whose role is to alleviate the pressure?

 

Your "4v4 meta" does not happen every time in Solo Ranked. I'm willing to bet the percentage of "4v4 meta" matches is pretty small compared to 4DPS or 3DPS + 1Support. There is a separate mode for that.

 

 

Again... what...?

 

If the system for Solo Ranked changed to 3v3, deny 2 healers or 2 tanks from being on the same team.

 

If Bioware could detect throwing, wintrading, and cheating in real time in their matches, don't you think they would have done something about it?

 

Okay, so put something in place as a band-aid fix and see if it works. There is currently no mitigation for losses due to these things.

 

Bioware already sets aside Cartel Market items for ranked Rewards. It's called reskins.

 

I don't remember any Ranked rewards being Cartel Market items. I just remember them being very desirable because they were exclusive to Ranked content. Can you provide some examples?

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Wishlist for deaf ears:

 

1. Allow utility changes before timer starts. Do I need to play defensive or offensive based on the enemy team composition? Tacticals are changeable and they are just an extension of the utility system anyway.

 

2. Shrink Solo Ranked to 3v3. The population just isn't there to support consistent 8-man matches. Also, since the burst is currently really high, this will alleviate an additional source of burst pressure the focus target has to survive through.

 

3. For Solo Ranked, allow only 1 "support" class (heals/tanks) to be on a team with 2 others required to be DPS. Compositions consist of 1 Healer + 2 DPS or 1 Tank + 2 DPS. One DPS is not enough to kill through Guard and Healing.

No one wants to fight 2 tanks or 2 healers.

 

4. A gear requirement of 306 for both Solo Ranked and Group Ranked. I believe they have had a similar policy in place before some expansions ago. You could not queue unless you had all 2018 expertise rating, iirc.

 

5. Change the ELO rating system. Bonus points for a winning streak and a decreasing point loss for losing streaks. More reward for winning and less punishing for unfortunate losses due to throwing, wintrading, cheating, etc. This might actually cause more wintrading in Grouped Ranked but might work for Solo Ranked.

 

6. Set aside some new Cartel Market items for Ranked rewards. I suspect a lot of people save their monthly CC stipend for cool CM items and don't actually buy CC directly. Keeping us chasing the "carrot on a stick" gear rewards will keep us subscribed and shift new cosmetics away from the CM and into actual game content.

 

No thoughts on Group Ranked nor how the above changes would affect it.

 

I never considered the 3v3 thing. That's an interesting idea, but goes hand in hand with the idea of 1v1s. and 2v2s. They could even have 4v4s for guys like Septru that enjoy it.

 

Leave it as an option and after a few months BW could see if it was active enough over that span to keep it. If they found it was not popular they could always remove it and just keep the 1v1s/2v2s and 3v3s.

 

They really could do a lot more with rewards I agree there too.

 

As for ELO, I agree it's far too costly on losses. If they want to have a ELO facet to the scoring, then at the very least lower some of the penalty for losing a match. So much focus is on losses it creates a ton of trouble in the game.

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Here's my 2¢ as a gold rated sniper since season 7 (probably not this season though):

 

3v3 is a decent idea, with games having either one tank each team or one healer each team. Tank & healer games right now are cancerous due to Force Bound, and they were generally not that great in solo ranked due to lack of communication anyways for the last few seasons.

 

Disabling vote kick is a hard no from me, since it allows us to kick throwers and auto-loss people who actually belong in unranked. I am all for increasing the ranked population, but it is not abuse to kick people who might as well be someone's bots - they need to actually learn to play. And no, my definition of auto-loss doesn't include people who just don't happen to be great.

 

On group ranked, they either need to bring mats / ops drops / good gear drops into it, or remove it altogether. It is a dead game mode.

 

Hard no on removing ELO - it can fluctuate, but it is still a dependable representation of skill level. You will not see a garbage person at 1.5k ELO or a great player at 700 ELO. I currently have a Rage Juggernaut only character (without Force Bound) stable at 1.3k ELO to prove the point. (My main is sadly not standing great right now, but I have no illusions about my skill level on sniper since I came back a week ago)

 

We have seen better anti-cheating policies, and the queue has been free of them as far as I have seen.

 

On my own ideas:

 

(1) MORE FREQUENT SEASONS: We were promised 3-6 month seasons in return for weaker rewards. We got the promised weaker rewards, but not really shorter seasons. Season length should be 2-3 months, with flairs / titles / flags as common rewards. Have armor sets / weapon boxes every 2-3 seasons as rewards also.

 

(2) No gear barrier to PVP: Just pre-determine stats per spec upon entry to PVP, thereby eliminating the gear barrier to PVP. This also allows balancing classes for PVP only by adjusting the given stats of each individual spec in PVP. Maybe allow some customisation - several thousand points of stats you can spend on accuracy, critical, power, alacrity, or have multiple options divided by alacrity (1.4s, 1.3s maybe 1.2s) and accuracy thresholds (+0%, +5%, +10%) per spec.

 

(3) More frequent balancing of classes: balance is arguably best it has been in some while, but there is still glaring errors. Also, there's some bugs regarding PVP that existed for a long long time (AP PT / Tactics Vanguard Cell Burst goes through sniper's evasion DR, much to my dismay). More frequent passes would be great.

 

(4) Fix desync if possible: this would include higher number of client/server updates in PVP instances maybe, or a general reduction of mobility abilities in PVP (by disabling them in Warzones and Arenas, or generally scaling them back?). I don't know, but it's no fun missing a kill or not being able to CC someone on you because they glitch under the map due to de-sync.

Edited by Metthew
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Disabling vote kick is a hard no from me, since it allows us to kick throwers and auto-loss people who actually belong in unranked. I am all for increasing the ranked population, but it is not abuse to kick people who might as well be someone's bots - they need to actually learn to play. And no, my definition of auto-loss doesn't include people who just don't happen to be great.

 

You clearly haven't played on Star Forge, where vote kick has been heavily abused all season. I'm not talking about using vote kick on people that are in 270 gear getting globaled. I've even vote kicked a few of them when they defiantly keep ruining the queue and are totally unqualified to play ranked.

 

On Star Forge, a disturbing number of the regular solo ranked players kick people just for being "bad," even when they're fully geared and trying to win. A select few kick people that they simply don't like, or people whose strats they don't approve of. It is completely, utterly out of control.

 

On Satele Shan lately, they seem to have learned from Star Forge, because people are being kicked left and right. I saw a sorc last night that had been playing fine in previous matches get netted and killed early in a round. Oh, better kick him because he cost his team the match. It's ludicrous.

 

And using vote kick on actual throwers doesn't even accomplish anything. It's only a 5 minute cooldown. The tiny benefit of that is not remotely worth the cost of the morons abusing it to bully people out of the queue.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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You clearly haven't played on Star Forge, where vote kick has been heavily abused all season. I'm not talking about using vote kick on people that are in 270 gear getting globaled. I've even vote kicked a few of them when they defiantly keep ruining the queue and are totally unqualified to play ranked.

 

On Star Forge, a disturbing number of the regular solo ranked players kick people just for being "bad," even when they're fully geared and trying to win. A select few kick people that they simply don't like, or people whose strats they don't approve of. It is completely, utterly out of control.

 

On Satele Shan lately, they seem to have learned from Star Forge, because people are being kicked left and right. I saw a sorc last night that had been playing fine in previous matches get netted and killed early in a round. Oh, better kick him because he cost his team the match. It's ludicrous.

 

And using vote kick on actual throwers doesn't even accomplish anything. It's only a 5 minute cooldown. The tiny benefit of that is not remotely worth the cost of the morons abusing it to bully people out of the queue.

 

 

Agree... Players should not have control over other players ability to participate in a mode of play. Set proper requirements for entry and remove vote kick.

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You clearly haven't played on Star Forge, where vote kick has been heavily abused all season. I'm not talking about using vote kick on people that are in 270 gear getting globaled. I've even vote kicked a few of them when they defiantly keep ruining the queue and are totally unqualified to play ranked.

 

On Star Forge, a disturbing number of the regular solo ranked players kick people just for being "bad," even when they're fully geared and trying to win. A select few kick people that they simply don't like, or people whose strats they don't approve of. It is completely, utterly out of control.

 

On Satele Shan lately, they seem to have learned from Star Forge, because people are being kicked left and right. I saw a sorc last night that had been playing fine in previous matches get netted and killed early in a round. Oh, better kick him because he cost his team the match. It's ludicrous.

 

And using vote kick on actual throwers doesn't even accomplish anything. It's only a 5 minute cooldown. The tiny benefit of that is not remotely worth the cost of the morons abusing it to bully people out of the queue.

 

Honestly SF is bad I get it but on DM votekick isn't abused and its actually a vital tool as there have been several throwers. Not just bad players but actual throwers to manipulate the queue. After the bans DM has been a lot better but votekick is still needed. A reason for that would be this https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/wintrade-dm-solo-group.1624704/. I have yet to see anything come of it but votekicking allows us as players to regulate match manipulation. I would be totally okay with removing votekick during placements as I can imagine for new players it would be terrible to be votekicked during your first games. This would allow more experienced players to tell newer players how to improve rather than just kicking them.

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I fail to see how votekicking combats throwing. You're just doing the guys job for him :confused::confused::confused:

 

rofl. That's a great point. Seriously. I had to think this little quote out in my head and it's pretty brilliant. :D

Edited by Lhancelot
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Honestly SF is bad I get it but on DM votekick isn't abused and its actually a vital tool as there have been several throwers. Not just bad players but actual throwers to manipulate the queue. After the bans DM has been a lot better but votekick is still needed. A reason for that would be this https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/wintrade-dm-solo-group.1624704/. I have yet to see anything come of it but votekicking allows us as players to regulate match manipulation. I would be totally okay with removing votekick during placements as I can imagine for new players it would be terrible to be votekicked during your first games. This would allow more experienced players to tell newer players how to improve rather than just kicking them.

 

What does vote kick actually do for you? How does it prevent match manipulation? The match itself is already ruined, and it only gives them a 5 minute cooldown before they can do it again... Seriously, I've seen this argument a bunch of times, but it has never been explained. Please enlighten me.

 

I understand there's a difference in the servers. But even if it's being used 100% legitimately on DM, that is still not worth the abuse that happens on SF and SS in the slightest. It has to go.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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Remove Ranked Arenas and switch Ranked exclusively to Huttball. Take Huttball out of the regular queue since a lot of people seem to drop when they are surprised by a Huttball match. Not only are you fixing both a Ranked and Unranked complaint, but you no longer have to worry about balancing around 4v4 arenas - in fact, it would probably be the best thing for the game as a whole, period.

 

If you really think about it, it's actually a brilliant idea if I don't say so myself. Really, though, if you dont find yourself immediately onboard with this idea - think of a way that makes it better, but within the parameters of "Ranked = Only Huttball" and "Unranked = Everything else" and let me know what that would look like, and I am confident you will then agree that this is the healthiest and smartest way to address the problem.

 

This is the way.

Edited by TitusOfTides
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Remove Ranked Arenas and switch Ranked exclusively to Huttball. Take Huttball out of the regular queue since a lot of people seem to drop when they are surprised by a Huttball match. Not only are you fixing both a Ranked and Unranked complaint, but you no longer have to worry about balancing around 4v4 arenas - in fact, it would probably be the best thing for the game as a whole, period.

 

If you really think about it, it's actually a brilliant idea if I don't say so myself. Really, though, if you dont find yourself immediately onboard with this idea - think of a way that makes it better, but within the parameters of "Ranked = Only Huttball" and "Unranked = Everything else" and let me know what that would look like, and I am confident you will then agree that this is the healthiest and smartest way to address the problem.

 

This is the way.

 

No, it isn’t. What about those Unranked players who like Huttball, but hate the Ranked community?

 

What about the Ranked players who hate Huttball?

Edited by UltraFlashStar
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No, it isn’t. What about those Unranked players who like Huttball, but hate the Ranked community?

 

What about the Ranked players who hate Huttball?

 

Change is change. You will never change anything while also keeping it the same, and it seems clear to everyone that Ranked should not continue to go on as it is now.

 

The Ranked scene would drastically change - not just the community or the meta, but its values and capabilities. Vote kicked off an 8 person team? More credibility there than on one of 4. Trying to throw a match? Much harder now. You like Huttball? You can now play it anytime and more than likely have a much larger community of nice Huttball fans than that of the old toxic Ranked community. So what you know now as the Ranked community would change, because things will have changed - you follow?

 

Current Ranked player that hates Huttball? Play Regs. You'll get the action, and if the Devs have a brain they'll up the rewards for Reg play. Hate Huttball but want the Ranked rewards? I guess you now have to make a very minor decision in your adult life - everyone else had to with the old Ranked meta and community, so what's new?

 

What about Goldilocks, you ask? Who cares what they think. They shouldn't have broke into someone's house, and should be grateful they got away with everything for as long as they did.

 

So, yeah, it is.

Edited by TitusOfTides
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Have you ever played ranked huttball? I have.

I think a lot of people that have never seen ranked huttball wouldn't like it as much as they like to think they would

 

In the past I'd have favored this idea, but this **** has set sail a looooooong time ago.

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Literally anything that will cause the que to pop more frequently. 30 minute Que times on SF and only having Que pops at certain times are the biggest problem.

 

The biggest issue with ranked is the lack of people participating,

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Have you ever played ranked huttball? I have.

I think a lot of people that have never seen ranked huttball wouldn't like it as much as they like to think they would

 

In the past I'd have favored this idea, but this **** has set sail a looooooong time ago.

 

Based on how people talk about huttball on here I'd be surprised if any played it ranked, and despite the multiple cries on here to bring back 8s no one (to my knowledge) is taking advantage of the challenge system to initiate 8 v 8 games.

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Have you ever played ranked huttball? I have.

I think a lot of people that have never seen ranked huttball wouldn't like it as much as they like to think they would

 

In the past I'd have favored this idea, but this **** has set sail a looooooong time ago.

 

Stop complaining and get back in position for a fire pull.

 

You should be more gracious towards huttball since at least you get to participate in the match rather than sitting at the off node for 25 minutes while the other 7 players try to kill each other at mid. In other words, I agree with you.

 

8v8 ranked was a blast at level 50 when everyone had 30k HP and 1 or 2 main DCDs- people actually died, the map mechanics (capping, scoring the huttball) functioned well. It got way worse at level 55 when TTK shot up. 8v8 ranked with the current maps and time to kill/cap is unthinkable in 6.0. It would be truly awful, I can already tell you the meta to get around the TTK issue would be 1 jug tank 1 sin tank 4 PT dps and 2 healers. No one else bother.

 

Besides, the player population isn't there to support it. That ship sailed when Bioware simultaneously introduced server transfers and removed 8v8 ranked warzones. I'm old enough to remember the staggering amount of 8v8 ranked pvpers who left the game after that and never came back.

 

And to Snave's point, the challenge feature exists already. It's actually really well-made, so find 15 of your closest pvp friends and play some 8v8 ranked warzones without the drama of ELO. You might be looking for a while.

Edited by EnzoForMe
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