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Jedi Knight - the most powerful class story-wise?


JFrombaugh

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One thing I noticed about the JK and JC stories - Both are regarded as extremely powerful in the story, even compared to other Jedi. But although the Consular technically has a far greater mastery of the Force to the point where he

attains a legendary title at the end of Chapter 1 and earns a seat on the Jedi Council at the end of the story

...I felt that you could make a very strong case for the Knight being arguably the most powerful class in the game lorewise due to his immense skill in dueling combined with Force-enhanced toughness. I felt that the Knight's storyline felt far more Mary Sue-ish in that you're always the hero who saves worlds, proves to be nearly invincible in lightsaber duels, and eventually ends up being the Jedi who single-handedly brings the Empire and the Sith to their knees.

 

Although I haven't played the Sith Warrior story. The non-Force sensitive classes, by contrast, seem to be depicted as skillful and intelligent but still just typical soldiers/mercenaries.

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One thing I noticed about the JK and JC stories - Both are regarded as extremely powerful in the story, even compared to other Jedi. But although the Consular technically has a far greater mastery of the Force to the point where he

attains a legendary title at the end of Chapter 1 and earns a seat on the Jedi Council at the end of the story

...I felt that you could make a very strong case for the Knight being arguably the most powerful class in the game lorewise due to his immense skill in dueling combined with Force-enhanced toughness. I felt that the Knight's storyline felt far more Mary Sue-ish in that you're always the hero who saves worlds, proves to be nearly invincible in lightsaber duels, and eventually ends up being the Jedi who single-handedly brings the Empire and the Sith to their knees.

 

Although I haven't played the Sith Warrior story. The non-Force sensitive classes, by contrast, seem to be depicted as skillful and intelligent but still just typical soldiers/mercenaries.

 

In my opinion...the most powerful class, story-wise, is up for debate between the Jedi Knight and Sith Inquisitor.

Edited by VitalityPrime
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How are you defining power, here? Personal combat ability? Political influence? The ability to bring governments to their knees?

 

Because pretty much all the classes become powerful in their own way by the end of the story.

 

You could make a serious argument that the most potentially powerful at the end is the Imperial Agent.

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Major spoilers ahead for both Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior.

Seriously, don't read this if you haven't played both of them to their ends.

 

 

---

 

 

 

 

Anywho, I get why the Jedi Knight might appear so powerful, having killed the Emperor and all. Except the "Emperor" part is false. The Jedi Knight kills a Voice of the Emperor, which, while an impressive feat, is nowhere near taking down the man himself. Furthermore, as Scourge repeatedly says, the Emperor is weakened from sustaining the rituals the Jedi Knight interrupted. However, that's not the only reason he's weakened: the Sith Warrior also kills his Voice on Voss (by the Emperor's own request).

 

So take all this together, and the final outcome is: The Emperor was heavily weakened both from sustaining his rituals and from one of his Voices being killed, and the Jedi Knight beat another Voice, hurting but not slaying the real Emperor. So it's not that impressive, and in fact felt like a very hollow victory to me. I'mma quote the Skyrim trailer and say the defeat was merely a delay.

 

On the other hand, I find the Sith Warrior to feel a lot more powerful. Handpicked by the Emperor himself to hold the second highest rank in the Empire - even greater than the Hand and the Imperial Guard - every part of the story feels like the Warrior is completely and utterly unstoppable. From start to finish, he never meets an opponent who can actually give him pause. It's also important to remember that the role of the Emperor's Wrath is reserved to someone who can beat any Dark Council member in case they rebel against the Emperor, so if our good friend Vitiate picked the Warrior, it's quite safe to assume he is indeed stronger than any Dark Council member - literally the best of the best.

 

Regardless, I agree that in terms of influence more than sheer power, the Agent wins (depending on the choices you make).

Edited by ThirdDementor
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Anywho, I get why the Jedi Knight might appear so powerful, having killed the Emperor and all. Except the "Emperor" part is false. The Jedi Knight kills a Voice of the Emperor, which, while an impressive feat, is nowhere near taking down the man himself. Furthermore, as Scourge repeatedly says, the Emperor is weakened from sustaining the rituals the Jedi Knight interrupted. However, that's not the only reason he's weakened: the Sith Warrior also kills his Voice on Voss (by the Emperor's own request).

 

So take all this together, and the final outcome is: The Emperor was heavily weakened both from sustaining his rituals and from one of his Voices being killed, and the Jedi Knight beat another Voice, hurting but not slaying the real Emperor. So it's not that impressive, and in fact felt like a very hollow victory to me. I'mma quote the Skyrim trailer and say the defeat was merely a delay.

 

Err...

 

 

The Knight's killing of the Voice is said to be a MAJOR blow which still effectively takes the Emperor out of the picture. It's said he goes into a sort of hibernation and does eventually die, though exactly when is unknown. Also Marr pretty much confirms the Emperor is dying in the Imperial intro to Makeb (for the Inquisitor at least). So while the Knight may not have finished him off immediately and finally, he was responsible for the lethal blow.

 

Honestly the "not quite dead" thing just feels put in to prevent the Warrior from becoming useless.

 

 

I would say the Knight and Warrior are pretty evenly matched in a straight up fight. However if the Inquisitor is a Sorcerer, they might have the advantage if they're given the chance to do their sorcery shenanigans.

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Err...

 

 

The Knight's killing of the Voice is said to be a MAJOR blow which still effectively takes the Emperor out of the picture. It's said he goes into a sort of hibernation and does eventually die, though exactly when is unknown. Also Marr pretty much confirms the Emperor is dying in the Imperial intro to Makeb (for the Inquisitor at least). So while the Knight may not have finished him off immediately and finally, he was responsible for the lethal blow.

 

 

 

 

Not quite. The Emperor dying a final death happens somewhere, sometime, and it's unknown when. It isn't necessarily a direct result of the battle with the Knight. Darth Marr says he's basically dead or dying, yes, but that uncertainty means he doesn't truly know 100% what's the Emperor's true state. But we know who does: the Hand, and after Forged Alliances part 1, they send the Wrath a message telling him the Emperor is, albeit slowly, recovering, and they even mention Darth Marr specifically. To quote:

 

"Despite what you may have heard from Darth Marr and others, the Emperor is not dead. He slumbers still, preparing for his inevitable return."

 

The Hand are the only people who are in physical proximity to the Emperor. No one knows better than them, so I tend to take their word over that of Councilor Saresh, Satele Shan, or even my homie Darth Marr. Don't get me wrong - I don't like the Emperor at all, for reasons discussed below - I just don't think the Knight is responsible for his death.

 

 

Honestly the "not quite dead" thing just feels put in to prevent the Warrior from becoming useless.

 

 

 

Alas, as much as I hate to say it, the Warrior becomes useless way earlier, the moment you start Jedi Knight chapter 3 and learn that he fights for an Emperor that doesn't give a single f-word about the Empire, has no great vision for it, no plans for its future, and just wants to become Darth Nihilus 2.0.

 

But considering this, the Knight actually does the Empire a huge favor, because his actions pave the way for Darth Marr to step up and command the Empire as the de-facto leader of the Dark Council, and Darth Marr knows his stuff. He's a highly competent and charismatic leader with a real vision for the Empire, not to mention one hell of a warrior spirit. He's not into power plays, he doesn't do the usual "he looked at me wrong so I must kill him despite his military value" Sith thing, and he sees the benefit in letting aliens serve in military and scientific positions if they show loyalty. All this, while still being true to the Empire's core values and the Sith Code. He's pretty much the ideal leader, and we all have the Jedi Knight to thank for that :D

 

Edited by ThirdDementor
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I would say the Knight and Warrior are pretty evenly matched in a straight up fight. However if the Inquisitor is a Sorcerer, they might have the advantage if they're given the chance to do their sorcery shenanigans.

 

lorewise the lightnings are a lot powerful..personally i say inquisitor and consular..jedi knight may be the strongest with the sword but should have limits in force use..

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Not quite. The Emperor dying a final death happens somewhere, sometime, and it's unknown when. It isn't necessarily a direct result of the battle with the Knight. Darth Marr says he's basically dead or dying, yes, but that uncertainty means he doesn't truly know 100% what's the Emperor's true state. But we know who does: the Hand, and after Forged Alliances part 1, they send the Wrath a message telling him the Emperor is, albeit slowly, recovering, and they even mention Darth Marr specifically. To quote:

 

"Despite what you may have heard from Darth Marr and others, the Emperor is not dead. He slumbers still, preparing for his inevitable return."

 

The Hand are the only people who are in physical proximity to the Emperor. No one knows better than them, so I tend to take their word over that of Councilor Saresh, Satele Shan, or even my homie Darth Marr. Don't get me wrong - I don't like the Emperor at all, for reasons discussed below - I just don't think the Knight is responsible for his death.

 

 

If the Emperor never recovers and becomes active again, then it is the Knight that killed him. It's the same as hitting someone with a car and putting them in a coma. Even if they veg out for twenty years, when they croak, the driver is still responsible. There are two things that would countermand that- the Emperor awakening (and getting put down again) or someone else further striking him in hibernation. Both are pretty specific circumstances that would need to be explicitly written in by Bioware or someone else at some point. There's no real reason to assume they happen otherwise. The Hand may say the Emperor is recovering but if we're never specifically told he fully awakens (but we are told he eventually dies for real) then it still makes sense to hold the Knight responsible for striking the telling blow.

 

 

 

 

 

Alas, as much as I hate to say it, the Warrior becomes useless way earlier, the moment you start Jedi Knight chapter 3 and learn that he fights for an Emperor that doesn't give a single f-word about the Empire, has no great vision for it, no plans for its future, and just wants to become Darth Nihilus 2.0.

 

But considering this, the Knight actually does the Empire a huge favor, because his actions pave the way for Darth Marr to step up and command the Empire as the de-facto leader of the Dark Council, and Darth Marr knows his stuff. He's a highly competent and charismatic leader with a real vision for the Empire, not to mention one hell of a warrior spirit. He's not into power plays, he doesn't do the usual "he looked at me wrong so I must kill him despite his military value" Sith thing, and he sees the benefit in letting aliens serve in military and scientific positions if they show loyalty. All this, while still being true to the Empire's core values and the Sith Code. He's pretty much the ideal leader, and we all have the Jedi Knight to thank for that :D

 

 

Having read the Revan novel it came at no shock to me that the Emperor was pure abomination from start to finish, and I can't really understand anyone being devoted to him outside of public acknowledgement for fear of reprisals or ******* lunatic devotion. The Jedi want him gone for obvious reasons but any Sith worth his salt should always be on the lookout to overthrow him and seize power for themselves because, hey that's what Sith do. While he was active in the Empire he ruled because he was strongest as per the code. But centuries of inactivity, not even being seen? Even with the brutal reprisals of the last coup attempt I would expect more Sith to constantly test the waters. I've said before that I can't take Baras seriously but I can respect his ambition, even if his plan was flawed.

 

But to the warrior being useless, they could still turn it around if they were continuing the stories. One Wrath betrayed him, why not the second? Only this time it's done Sith style with the warrior assuming command. As it is he's got the power anyway. The difference would be details. And coming back to Marr, I don't really see him succeeding. He may be a great leader for the Empire, but the Sith, by their nature play by different rules. Looks to me like he's sliding down the path of Kaan, and we all know where that leads.

I am very much a Bane-ite when it comes to Sith:D

 

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(So if you are still reading the thread and don't assume there are spoilers... well... ;) )

 

As for the orginal question, after the class storylines:

 

Smuggler, Bounty and Agent are pretty much free to do what they want and be where they want which allways satisfies my thirst for freedom, but they operate a bit out of the core.

 

Warrior, knight and trooper are in servitude albeit they are powerfull and "traditional" consular want's to be in servitude.

 

So i'd say inquisitor is the one with huge EPICscale power (even more so if you keep the spirits in) and pretty much free to do whatever you wish.

 

"If it look's like unlimited power it probably is unlimited power"

- Fazaani 2014 ;)

Edited by Fazaani
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And coming back to Marr, I don't really see him succeeding. He may be a great leader for the Empire, but the Sith, by their nature play by different rules. Looks to me like he's sliding down the path of Kaan, and we all know where that leads.

 

 

Maar should be able to maintain control for the same reason the Emperor did: the other Sith are, simply put, scared sh*tless of him, with the exception of Nox and the ol' Wrath, who are his allies, even if only temporarily. He unofficially led the Dark Council even before the war started. Now, with things as they are, after what Malgus pulled off and with the Empire on the verge of annihilation, popular opinion must be so heavily in favor of unity and in support of Marr. The Empire's people have had enough of Sith shenanigans running the Empire into the ground. At a time like this, whoever challenges Marr will get 0 support, and with 0 support, the only way to replace Marr is to beat him in a duel, which no Dark Council member can do, barring the aforementioned duo, who are sensible enough to know that the Empire is doomed without Marr.

 

 

 

But back to the topic at hand (spoilers for Warrior, Inquisitor and Knight here):

 

 

I think you guys are a bit exaggerating with the powers of the Inquisitor. Lightning looks a lot flashier than the Warrior or the Knight's use of the Force, but to say it's outright more powerful is a bit of a stretch. The Inquisitor is good. Real good. But he's not Palpatine - he doesn't destroy whole fleets/armies with lightning. The Inquisitor's ghosts make him immortal, yes, but that hardly means unbeatable, as he can still lose a fight and be imprisoned. The Warrior/Knight's abilities are simply more subtle in their appearance, but they're extremely powerful nontheless: inhuman reflexes, godlike speed, the ability to resist or even ignore attacks that would kill regular people on the spot. They can also block lightning attacks with their lightsaber, like we see the Warrior doing against Baras, and if they have the right training, also with their hands, like Yoda. All they have to do is use these numerous abilities (let's not forget that they can charge) to get into melee range, at which point they have a massive advantage. Bottom line is: flashier abilities do not mean a greater command of the Force.

 

Take another look at the duel between the Inquisitor and Thanaton. The Inquisitor won, but look how much effort that took, and with all due respect, that was just Thanaton, whom I don't believe is anywhere near as powerful as the Knight or the Wrath. I mean, do you really see Thanaton taking on a Voice of the Emperor, Lord Draahg (as much as we like to make fun of him, he is exceedingly powerful), Darth Ekkage, or legendary Jedi Master Wyellett?

 

Edited by ThirdDementor
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Maar should be able to maintain control for the same reason the Emperor did: the other Sith are, simply put, scared sh*tless of him, with the exception of Nox and the ol' Wrath, who are his allies, even if only temporarily. He unofficially led the Dark Council even before the war started. Now, with things as they are, after what Malgus pulled off and with the Empire on the verge of annihilation, popular opinion must be so heavily in favor of unity and in support of Marr. The Empire's people have had enough of Sith shenanigans running the Empire into the ground. At a time like this, whoever challenges Marr will get 0 support, and with 0 support, the only way to replace Marr is to beat him in a duel, which no Dark Council member can do, barring the aforementioned duo, who are sensible enough to know that the Empire is doomed without Marr.

I don't believe for a moment that Marr inspires the same terror that the Emperor did. There just isn't any reason for it. He has neither millenia of legends about him, nor the ability to instakill/enslave a roomful of Sith Lords. I can believe he can kill anyone one on one but not a bunch of powerful Sith ganging up on him (which, again is what usually happens to powerful Sith when there's this many contenders). And that's really only scratching the surface of open conflict. There are more treacherous ways of bringing him down.

 

I get that the Empire's rank and file see him as the best hope for continued stability. But this has always been about the Sith and the Sith always turn on one another. It's just the nature of the dark side.

 

But back to the topic at hand (spoilers for Warrior, Inquisitor and Knight here):

 

 

I think you guys are a bit exaggerating with the powers of the Inquisitor. Lightning looks a lot flashier than the Warrior or the Knight's use of the Force, but to say it's outright more powerful is a bit of a stretch. The Inquisitor is good. Real good. But he's not Palpatine - he doesn't destroy whole fleets/armies with lightning. The Inquisitor's ghosts make him immortal, yes, but that hardly means unbeatable, as he can still lose a fight and be imprisoned. The Warrior/Knight's abilities are simply more subtle in their appearance, but they're extremely powerful nontheless: inhuman reflexes, godlike speed, the ability to resist or even ignore attacks that would kill regular people on the spot. They can also block lightning attacks with their lightsaber, like we see the Warrior doing against Baras, and if they have the right training, also with their hands, like Yoda. All they have to do is use these numerous abilities (let's not forget that they can charge) to get into melee range, at which point they have a massive advantage. Bottom line is: flashier abilities do not mean a greater command of the Force.

 

Take another look at the duel between the Inquisitor and Thanaton. The Inquisitor won, but look how much effort that took, and with all due respect, that was just Thanaton, whom I don't believe is anywhere near as powerful as the Knight or the Wrath. I mean, do you really see Thanaton taking on a Voice of the Emperor, Lord Draahg (as much as we like to make fun of him, he is exceedingly powerful), Darth Ekkage, or legendary Jedi Master Wyellett?

When I argue for the Inquisitor I assume we're talking sorcerer, because that fits the story better (and it's also what I chose). But even if you go assassin that gets you quite a bit of the martial might that an inquisitor might otherwise lack vs Knight/Warrior.

 

More to the point though, is what the sorcerer is supposed to represent. Since this is a lore discussion that must be considered. And simply put sorcerers have an affinity for the Force itself. So yes, in a way that very much means they have a greater command of the Force. And it's not the lighting. It's the things they're supposed to be able to do that can't or don't really translate into game mechanics. Things like illusions, fear spells, pure manifestations of the dark side, Sith alchemy etc. Sith Sorcery is said to be the pure destructive power of the dark side. Against stuff like that, merely using the Force to augment your physical strengths doesn't seem that impressive.

 

Of course Sith Sorcery is not automatically superior. I think its greatest advantage comes from its unconventional nature. It does things that even some Jedi Masters have no idea how to handle. Swinging a lightsaber or throwing a rock at a problem is simple. But resisting Sith sorcery is a metaphysical battle. It's not familiar or simple at all. Now the Knight/Warrior may indeed possess more raw Force power. But if they can't handle the curve balls of Sith magic (or don't know how) their greater power is useless.

 

That's why I hold the Inquisitor as a (potentially) greater or equal contender to the Knight/Warrior.

 

 

As for the final Inquisitor fight it felt like a challenge to me playing it. But from the cutscenes the Inquisitor was hardly breaking a sweat. Think about how it ends:

 

Thanaton throws everything he has at him and he doesn't even flinch. That says something. As for Thanaton's power, he didn't become a Dark Council member by being a chump. I think he could roll with the best of them. He doesn't have to be the strongest to be a worthy foe.

 

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I don't believe for a moment that Marr inspires the same terror that the Emperor did. There just isn't any reason for it. He has neither millenia of legends about him, nor the ability to instakill/enslave a roomful of Sith Lords.

 

I never said he inspires the same fear as the Emperor. I said people don't want to pick a fight with him for the same reason they didn't want to pick a fight with the Emperor, and that reason is fear.

When Marr said "QUIET, RAVAGE! He/She's earned his/her place!", Ravage didn't argue further, and we both know it's not because Ravage was convinced. In similar fashion, he makes the entire council agree to let the Warrior duel Baras and subsequently accept him as the Wrath. If that's not fear, I don't know what is.

 

 

I can believe he can kill anyone one on one but not a bunch of powerful Sith ganging up on him (which, again is what usually happens to powerful Sith when there's this many contenders). And that's really only scratching the surface of open conflict. There are more treacherous ways of bringing him down.

 

What contenders? No one's in a position to challenge Marr, and no one with half a brain would want to. There's the risk of failiure (with worse-than-death consequences), the risk of being ratted out by a fellow conspirator who wants to gain favor with Marr (again, worse-than-death consequences), the risk of being ratted out by a Council member who genuinely wants to preserve the Empire (like Vowrawn or Acina) the risk of losing the Empire (and thus losing all authority if not one's life or freedom), and even assuming everything miraculously works, what's the point if you have to share the power at the end? Sith are treacherous, ruthless and conniving, yes, but you make them out to be a bunch of colossal idiots who can't plan further than the next 5 minutes. Malgus tried to pull off a coup with a very large force, superior technology, a stealth armada and the element of surprise - and he failed. Who in their right mind would think their chances are better?

 

I get that the Empire's rank and file see him as the best hope for continued stability. But this has always been about the Sith and the Sith always turn on one another.

 

It was always about the Sith, because the Sith are more powerful than regular people. But that was when the Empire was stable. When the threat is this grave, when the Empire stands on the precipice of annihilation, a minority, no matter how powerful, is still a minority. Just look at our own world. Dictatorships can maintain control through force and the threat of torture. Like Sith compared to regular Imperials, people with guns are more powerful than unarmed civilians. But when people have really had enough, when they feel they have nothing to lose, and when an entire nation rises up against its current rulers, those rulers fall. A Sith can fight 5, 10, 20 people? Even the Sith have limits. You can't fight your entire people and win. And with the Empire at the brink of destruction, I certainly believe the people have had enough of infighting and betrayal. The killer of Marr would not be accepted as the new leader - he'd be burned at the stake as the traitor who destroyed the Empire.

 

 

When I argue for the Inquisitor I assume we're talking sorcerer, because that fits the story better (and it's also what I chose). But even if you go assassin that gets you quite a bit of the martial might that an inquisitor might otherwise lack vs Knight/Warrior.

 

More to the point though, is what the sorcerer is supposed to represent. Since this is a lore discussion that must be considered. And simply put sorcerers have an affinity for the Force itself. So yes, in a way that very much means they have a greater command of the Force. And it's not the lighting. It's the things they're supposed to be able to do that can't or don't really translate into game mechanics. Things like illusions, fear spells, pure manifestations of the dark side, Sith alchemy etc. Sith Sorcery is said to be the pure destructive power of the dark side. Against stuff like that, merely using the Force to augment your physical strengths doesn't seem that impressive.

 

Of course Sith Sorcery is not automatically superior. I think its greatest advantage comes from its unconventional nature. It does things that even some Jedi Masters have no idea how to handle. Swinging a lightsaber or throwing a rock at a problem is simple. But resisting Sith sorcery is a metaphysical battle. It's not familiar or simple at all. Now the Knight/Warrior may indeed possess more raw Force power. But if they can't handle the curve balls of Sith magic (or don't know how) their greater power is useless.

 

That's why I hold the Inquisitor as a (potentially) greater or equal contender to the Knight/Warrior.

 

Fair enough, I see your point. However, I have to disagree on the next one:

 

As for the final Inquisitor fight it felt like a challenge to me playing it. But from the cutscenes the Inquisitor was hardly breaking a sweat. Think about how it ends:

 

Thanaton throws everything he has at him and he doesn't even flinch. That says something. As for Thanaton's power, he didn't become a Dark Council member by being a chump. I think he could roll with the best of them. He doesn't have to be the strongest to be a worthy foe.

 

 

I was not referring to Thanaton's HP bar. Look at the sheer drama involved. The channeling of power, the raw energy, drawing on all ghosts. Do you truly believe the Inquisitor can do that every five minutes like nothing? This took everything he had. Summoning the ghosts to protect him is not a trivial thing - it's a last resort. The Inquisitor finishes the battle unscathed, not unspent. But are we really supposed to see him fall to his knees in exhaustion and struggle to catch his breath at his greatest moment of victory? That's just not how stories are told. Like if when Mortis beckons him to take his Council seat, the Inquisitor would say "Okay, but can this wait a moment? I really have to go to the bathroom." Realistically possible, but again, not how stories are told.

 

Edited by ThirdDementor
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I never said he inspires the same fear as the Emperor. I said people don't want to pick a fight with him for the same reason they didn't want to pick a fight with the Emperor, and that reason is fear.

When Marr said "QUIET, RAVAGE! He/She's earned his/her place!", Ravage didn't argue further, and we both know it's not because Ravage was convinced. In similar fashion, he makes the entire council agree to let the Warrior duel Baras and subsequently accept him as the Wrath. If that's not fear, I don't know what is.

I didn't really interpret that as fear. What the other Dark Council members really think of Marr is speculation. Marr being the de facto leader of the Council is not. Any deference is probably protocol, as unless there is a real pressing reason, an open challenge in the Council would be useless and potentially harmful. But I know for a fact that Marr doesn't have total control of the other Councilors because if he did, he wouldn't just complain about the infighting, he'd actually suppress it.

 

 

And if he did have that kind of control he would've been able to save Thanaton. The whole Kaggath nonsense is as brazen an example of infighting as anything else we've seen. It's flat out stated in the Agent storyline that the Imperial position on Corellia is severely weakened by all the shenanigans of Thanaton, Baras and Vowran. If Marr could do something about it, he would've. Baras is a lost cause but Thanaton was still loyal, and powerful enough to merit keeping. Marr could've forced a peace (or at least temporary truce) in order to focus on the Republic. And he would've because he seems to put a united Empire above the principles of the Sith- and scheming to get power and weeding out the weak are fundamental tenets of the dark side.

 

Also if you want factual proof, we get more insight into the Council in the novel Annihilation and we find out that other Dark Council members are scheming and aren't too thrilled with Marr. They're not in a position to do anything about it. But they're not frozen in submission either. They actually go against Marr's recommendation as to who to promote to the Sphere of Technology spot.

 

 

 

What contenders? No one's in a position to challenge Marr, and no one with half a brain would want to. There's the risk of failiure (with worse-than-death consequences), the risk of being ratted out by a fellow conspirator who wants to gain favor with Marr (again, worse-than-death consequences), the risk of being ratted out by a Council member who genuinely wants to preserve the Empire (like Vowrawn or Acina) the risk of losing the Empire (and thus losing all authority if not one's life or freedom), and even assuming everything miraculously works, what's the point if you have to share the power at the end? Sith are treacherous, ruthless and conniving, yes, but you make them out to be a bunch of colossal idiots who can't plan further than the next 5 minutes. Malgus tried to pull off a coup with a very large force, superior technology, a stealth armada and the element of surprise - and he failed. Who in their right mind would think their chances are better?

There's always the risk of failure, and fear of that is a chain that needs breaking. I'm not going to get into specifics because there are nearly endless possibilities. But here is why plotting to take down Marr (or anyone in his position, even the Emperor) is inevitable.

 

The dark side is inherently selfish. The Sith ways stress power for the individual. Power is its own reward. Look at the Sith Code. Through passion I gain strength, through strength I gain power, through power I gain victory through victory my chains are broken. It's I, I everywhere. Contrast it to the Jedi Code which is impersonal. There is no emotion, there is peace there is no ignorance there is knowledge etc.

 

Loyalty to anything other than yourself and your personal power is a chain, an impediment to fully following the Sith Code and therefore completely embracing the dark side. Being encouraged to embrace your passions, to unleash your fury and reach the peak of your power, yet take a knee for another (or even another ideal) is a fundamentally incompatible situation. It's a paradox, a contradiction of everything the Sith are taught. That's why the Sith always destroy themselves. It's the nature of the dark side and of their teachings. That's more or less why Malgus really planned his coup (his progression is described in the novel Deceived). And that's why two thousand years later Darth Bane created the Rule of Two.

 

Far from being idiots, those who realize this are the only true Sith in my opinion. And there will always be the ones who do realize this and act on it. They might not be so philosophical about it, it might simply be a case of "screw listening to Darth X I want to do my own thing, I'm Sith and that's my right" but it will happen. And if they're smart enough, ruthless enough and strong enough, they might just pull it off. All the other concerns, like what happens to the Empire are irrelevant. The Empire is merely a vehicle for the Sith to exercise their power. It's a means to an end, not the end itself. And it only takes a few Sith to realize this and doom them all.

 

I'm not saying it's a good thing. That's the tragedy of the Sith. Personally I've never found any Sith organization other than Bane's Order of the Sith believable for this very reason. The Empire in TOR gets a pass because the Emperor is literally made into an Eldritch Abomination. But without him it goes back to the same cycle.

 

It was always about the Sith, because the Sith are more powerful than regular people. But that was when the Empire was stable. When the threat is this grave, when the Empire stands on the precipice of annihilation, a minority, no matter how powerful, is still a minority. Just look at our own world. Dictatorships can maintain control through force and the threat of torture. Like Sith compared to regular Imperials, people with guns are more powerful than unarmed civilians. But when people have really had enough, when they feel they have nothing to lose, and when an entire nation rises up against its current rulers, those rulers fall. A Sith can fight 5, 10, 20 people? Even the Sith have limits. You can't fight your entire people and win. And with the Empire at the brink of destruction, I certainly believe the people have had enough of infighting and betrayal. The killer of Marr would not be accepted as the new leader - he'd be burned at the stake as the traitor who destroyed the Empire.

 

If that were true, there'd already be riots breaking out for what happened on Corellia. Like I said, it's acknowledged that the war effort was massively undercut by Sith vendettas. Yet the regular people keep plowing on.

 

What you're talking about is revolution. When was the last revolution to happen during a war?

 

 

I was not referring to Thanaton's HP bar. Look at the sheer drama involved. The channeling of power, the raw energy, drawing on all ghosts. Do you truly believe the Inquisitor can do that every five minutes like nothing? This took everything he had. Summoning the ghosts to protect him is not a trivial thing - it's a last resort. The Inquisitor finishes the battle unscathed, not unspent. But are we really supposed to see him fall to his knees in exhaustion and struggle to catch his breath at his greatest moment of victory? That's just not how stories are told. Like if when Mortis beckons him to take his Council seat, the Inquisitor would say "Okay, but can this wait a moment? I really have to go to the bathroom." Realistically possible, but again, not how stories are told.

 

Think back to just before that. Thanaton throws two bolts at Kallig and he backhands them like it ain't no thing. Clearly Thanaton would not be wearing kid gloves at this point. Those bolts would probably insta-fry anyone else. Then Thanaton charges what's possibly his most powerful attack and strikes. And Kallig can still take it. Thanaton keeps going and Kalling starts to bend. It looks like he'll finally win. And then the ghosts come out and we're back at full health. What happens after that, throwing him around like a ragdoll, stopping his blade barehanded and forcing him to kneel isn't the ghosts. It's all the inquisitor. The ghosts just healed him.

 

Now sure he can't ghost heal every 5 minutes. But the fight clearly shows he wouldn't need to. Standing up to Thanaton that long, not to mention beating him on Corellia (he didn't run like a ***** for nothing), proves his power more than enough. And let's not forget, binding one ghost is dangerous. Binding four should've been suicide. The fact that he lasted long enough to search for a cure, go to two different planets and do a bunch of stuff on each to get his cure and then come screaming for Thanaton speaks for itself.

 

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When this discussion started, I never expected to say this, but you actually convinced me to see things your way. You've made very convincing arguments, and I find myself with little to no counter points. Well played, sir. :)

 

Didn't think it would happen, but I'm sold on the Inquisitor. Mind you, I still don't think Darth Marr will be replaced next week, but I am certainly open to the possibility now. Just hoping that stuff will happen after war.

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:D

 

I love discussing this stuff and immersing in it. The Force, Sith and Jedi views on it. That's why I started playing this game. I am by no means an MMO guy. And Bioware's made some great contributions to the EU.

 

Pity that's all crapped on now.

 

Pity indeed.

 

But I, too, love discussing these things, and seeing as we've already hijacked this thread and no one really minds, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this (Warrior spoilers):

 

 

Darth Baras. I think he actually deserved to win. The man is a master manipulator and strategist with a vast and accomplished network of spies. His only mistake that I can think of was choosing the wrong champion. He outplayed Nomen Karr, Vengean, the Entity, Vowrawn, the Dark Council, and even the Emperor on Voss. If he had just made the call to get rid of Draahg instead of the Warrior, he would've easily become Voice of the Emperor, and by the time the Warrior would have been approached by the Hand and told of the deception, Baras would have already been too deeply entrenched in his new position, to the point where his "defend the Voice!" requests would actually work.

 

Better still, Baras as the Voice would probably be the best thing that happened to the Empire. He is exceedingly intelligent, and due to his Emperor-like authority as the Voice, his position would be nearly unassailable. Even more so considering how good he is at gathering information. That means a stable Dark Council, headed by a brilliant man. The Empire might have fared far better in the war.

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited by ThirdDementor
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Pity indeed.

 

But I, too, love discussing these things, and seeing as we've already hijacked this thread and no one really minds, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this (Warrior spoilers):

 

 

Darth Baras. I think he actually deserved to win. The man is a master manipulator and strategist with a vast and accomplished network of spies. His only mistake that I can think of was choosing the wrong champion. He outplayed Nomen Karr, Vengean, the Entity, Vowrawn, the Dark Council, and even the Emperor on Voss. If he had just made the call to get rid of Draahg instead of the Warrior, he would've easily become Voice of the Emperor, and by the time the Warrior would have been approached by the Hand and told of the deception, Baras would have already been too deeply entrenched in his new position, to the point where his "defend the Voice!" requests would actually work.

 

Better still, Baras as the Voice would probably be the best thing that happened to the Empire. He is exceedingly intelligent, and due to his Emperor-like authority as the Voice, his position would be nearly unassailable. Even more so considering how good he is at gathering information. That means a stable Dark Council, headed by a brilliant man. The Empire might have fared far better in the war.

 

 

Thoughts?

Well I'll have to preface this by saying I haven't done the Warrior storyline myself, I've just seen it on Youtube. As such some details may not have stayed with me as much as they might've if I'd played though myself. Though between the grind of planets, I remember the early parts of stories (like the Knight) even less. But here goes:

 

 

I found Baras pretty ridiculous to be honest. The voice reminded me of a cartoon villain I can't quite place and his appearance speaks for itself. I was actually surprised, as he does feature in Deceived in a minor role and I pictured him quite differently. Contrast that to Thanaton, who despite being chained to tradition is fairly menacing (and his face reminds me a tad of Bill Nighy at times.)

 

But superficialities aside, I wasn't overly impressed. He fails to extract the information he needs from a mere SIS agent without the help of the Ravager (something that really should be overkill for a non-Force sensitive) and generally seems to just pout and whine when things don't go his way and be a bit too cheesy of a braggart when they do. I'll give him credit for his cunning, as his plans until the Voice gambit were pretty well conceived and executed. In Deceived it is he who negotiates the Treaty of Coruscant while Angral burns it so that's further testament to his intelligence and wit. I just think he lacks real power in the dark side. Which I suppose makes his rise and continued survival more impressive.

 

My problem with his plan for the Voice is it seems too public and it leaves too many loose ends. Trapping the real Voice with Sel-Makor was admittedly brilliant. But that required pretty detailed knowledge of how the Voice works. Knowledge that should've led Baras to anticipate the Hand might get wise to his shenanigans and move against him. Yet there was no plan to neutralize the Hand. An oversight that proved fatal. Trying to take out his apprentice with a bomb/cave-in was pretty sloppy as well. Not what I'd expect from the man dubbed "the second best Sith spymaster after Darth Jadus" (who incidentally would've made a much better master for the Warrior and was wasted in the Agent storyline. If the look and feel of Jadus and Baras were switched I'd be much happier).

 

 

Battery's dying, will resume later.

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Some more thoughts on your specific points:

 

 

I don't think Baras could've maintained his ruse without neutralizing the Hand, even if he had the Warrior on his side (or kept in the dark). Regardless of when it came, a challenge to his claim from either the Hand or the Wrath would've forced the Dark Council to do precisely what they did- let it play out. It's not their affair and no one's going to risk choosing wrong. But more importantly, the minute Baras begins to lose his fate is sealed. Voice of the Emperor isn't just a role, it IS the Emperor. With all his strength and powers. So if Baras is supposed to be the Voice, why does he not insta-stomp or enslave the "upstarts" like we know (and more importantly the Dark Council knows) the Emperor can do? If Baras is reduced to pleading for help, he's no Voice.

 

Which brings up another point- the Voice is all dark and menacing like the real Emperor. But when Baras pretends to be the Voice, he's still being himself. For someone who's supposed to be real clever and cunning, that's a huge lapse. I'm sure the older members on the Council (like Marr) have seen what the real Emperor's Voice sounds and acts like. Then Baras comes along and... acts just like Baras. I'm surprised they didn't just burst out laughing when he claimed he was the Voice.

 

The more I think about it, the dumber I think his plan is. Publicly purporting to rule the Sith on a con that's so easy to bust? It might be made to work, if he neutralized the Hand and could actually act the role. But it would still be doomed because the Knight helps kill Sel-Makor which would free the Emperor to come back and hand his *** to him. And to prevent that, he'd need to protect Sel-Makor while tiptoeing around the Voss indefinitely... nah, I don't see it. His failure is inevitable. And should that have happened, the Emperor would've probably purged the entire Council like he did the last time someone tried a coup and the Sith would be even weaker.

 

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