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A bit confused about the nature of the "dark side"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
A bit confused about the nature of the "dark side"

Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
11.07.2016 , 01:26 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by MayhemofChaonus View Post
*snip*
That's not what George Lucas said.
To him, the Dark Side is a cancer, and it is the very basis of imbalance.
Bringing balance does mean wiping out Dark Side users.
While it's undeniable that the Jedi Order was complacent and arrogant in its views, they're still meant to be right in spirit if not in method according to Lucas himself.
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Aeneas_Falco's Avatar


Aeneas_Falco
11.07.2016 , 11:14 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Leklor View Post
That's not what George Lucas said.
To him, the Dark Side is a cancer, and it is the very basis of imbalance.
Bringing balance does mean wiping out Dark Side users.
While it's undeniable that the Jedi Order was complacent and arrogant in its views, they're still meant to be right in spirit if not in method according to Lucas himself.
Exactly.

The dark side is a corruption of The Force in film canon. The EU however is inconsistent and you have different authors with different ideas on what the Force should be. It's one of the many problems with the EU. It needed a stronger controlling hand and EU hacks being told "No" more often.

George Lucas on what balance means...

"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

Likewise there really is no such thing as a light side, there is only The Force. What the games and EU refers to as light side is really just the uncorrupted Force.

That really should have been the story behind The Force Wars: There is only the Force in the beginning, revered by a primitive set of Force users on Tython. Later some of those members turn to evil and forbidden practices and in so doing effectively create the dark side corruption, causing the cycle of wars and suffering that consumes the galaxy for millenia afterwards. The Anakin prophecy would then be The Force, with a will of its own, exerting influence on the galaxy to correct that ancient wrong and rid itself of corruption.

MayhemofChaonus's Avatar


MayhemofChaonus
11.07.2016 , 11:26 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Aeneas_Falco View Post
Exactly.

The dark side is a corruption of The Force in film canon. The EU however is inconsistent and you have different authors with different ideas on what the Force should be. It's one of the many problems with the EU. It needed a stronger controlling hand and EU hacks being told "No" more often.

George Lucas on what balance means...

"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

Likewise there really is no such thing as a light side, there is only The Force. What the games and EU refers to as light side is really just the uncorrupted Force.
Sure, but GL isn't the one running SW anymore, and his idea of balance is just as broken, self-righteous, and just plain wrong as the Jedi's idea of balance. If that's what the canon is now then I'm glad I've decided: "f*ck the canon, this isn't Star Wars anymore". Star Wars is too big of a franchise to simply be confined to what is and isn't canon. All canon really means is that those things that are canon are the only Star Wars stuff that is legally allowed to make money. It doesn't mean that The Farce Awakens is more real than the Bane Trilogy or SWTOR, as those are simply in different (alternate) universes. It means that The Farce Awakens is simply the only content that is legally allowed to make money.

Of course there are conflicting ideas spread across the EU, in case you haven't noticed, that's the d@mned point! Star Wars allows thousands of people to express their unique perspective on the Force and morality. That is it's greatest use as far as I'm concerned. Star Wars can be the vehicle through which we discuss and debate our views on morality as a society.
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Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
11.07.2016 , 12:49 PM | #44
Think what you will but I feel like you're being a massive hypocrite.
You're saying that the EU has been a vehicle for debate about morality in SW and in general but there has always been one constant: Dark Siders were evil through and through, especially in the Darth Bane Trilogy where, even at there most self-righteous, intolerant point, the Jedi were still leagues more admirable than Bane and Zannah who murdered people for fun, broke their words just because they could and basically "excused" themselves by saying its the nature of the Sith (Note: That's actually the author's point, mind you. Evil might seem cool, but you never stop looking above your shoulder and you end up stabbed in the face because you weren't expecting an attack from the direction whence it came.)
And you are talking about debate but you don't hesitate to declare Lucas budhism-inspired vision of the Force as plainly and completely wrong. If that's debating, then you're not doing it right.
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Joachimthbear's Avatar


Joachimthbear
11.07.2016 , 06:38 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by MayhemofChaonus View Post
You obviously don't understand the meaning of balance...

"an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady"
Your body requires a balance of water and salt to function properly. If you consume equal weights of salt and water every day, you will probably die. Hence, you take an appropriate amount of each to balance the other. The literal definition you've given here is so narrow that it doesn't even seem applicable to the Force (can the Force ever be said to be "upright"?)

Quote: Originally Posted by MayhemofChaonus View Post
If the galaxy or the Force swings too far to the Dark Side, life in the galaxy becomes destructive and painful. If the Force swings too far to the Light Side, life, civilization, and progress becomes stagnant, strangled, and stifled.
That depends how you define the "Light Side" and Dark Side. It also involves a normative judgement on the value of "progress" that seems to contradict your claim about supporting differences of opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by MayhemofChaonus View Post
Imagine a garden if you will. If you are constantly pruning that garden, nothing substantial will ever grow because as soon as it does (or even before it does) it is cut off and dies. This is bad. However, if you never, ever prune the garden and simply let it grow naturally, it no longer becomes a garden. It will become a tangle of weeds, thorns, and plants that is so thick and full it becomes utterly useless, a burden on you rather than an asset.

This is the Force and the galaxy. If left in the Light Side too long, the galaxy will become stagnant and overgrown. If under the Dark Side too long, it will be left a barren waste. Neither is good, you need both in equal amounts to produce the best results.
That's still about an appropriate amount of pruning to an appropriate amount of leaving the garden be, not equal amounts. Maybe the garden needs very little care. Maybe it needs a lot. If you just say "I'll spend 50% of my time pruning like crazy and do nothing the other 50% of the time," or cut down half the plants at random and leave the other half untouched, just so that both approaches can be "equal", I suspect it probably won't work out.

You also seem to assume that the garden's (Force's, galaxy's) utility "for me", as an "asset", is of greatest importance. The garden's uncontrolled growth may have its own intrinsic value. I may have no right or obligation to impose my own purpose or structure on it.

Quote: Originally Posted by MayhemofChaonus View Post
Side Note: The Jedi Order of the prequals (along with all the Jedi in it, Yoda, Windu, and Obi-Wan included) was literally written to be wrong, just like the Jedi Code was. They were written to be perceived by the audience as corrupt, complacent, ignorant, arrogantly proud, and self-righteous. That is why Anakin had to be born, he had to destroy the Jedi and cull the galaxy of the unnecessary and burdensome overgrowth as Darth Vader, then destroy the Sith so that the Darkside, like the Light, would have to rebuild from scratch.
So, Lucas was somehow right about this when he made those films, but simultaneously wrong about the fundamental nature of the balance and the Dark Side itself? And even though there are "thousands of unique perspectives" on the Force, you're singling out the perspectives of Lucas and the Jedi as inherently stupid and wrong?

Quote: Originally Posted by MayhemofChaonus View Post
That is balance, not this nonsense about "just a pinch of darkside". Balance means equalibrium, not picking and choosing how much of which side you want...
I didn't say picking and choosing. I said "appropriate amounts". Given the original view of the Dark Side, i.e. that it is the imbalance and is a corruption in the Force, an appropriate amount is "zero". Given the view more popular in the expanded universe, that the Dark Side represents some vague constellation of emotions and concepts within the Force related to passion and ambition, the appropriate amount overall may be "a bit", but not when it comes to a Force-sensitive individual forming a healthy relationship with the Force.

JKDGSGDKJA's Avatar


JKDGSGDKJA
11.07.2016 , 08:17 PM | #46
To hell with what GL originally intended or currently thinks. He's not even part of the movies anymore, and honestly RotJ was the beginning of his downfall, not the prequels.

I've always seen the Dark Side as a necessary count balance to the dogmatism and influence of the Light, emphasizing the material world and short term benefits rather than grand, obtuse understandings of patience and restraint.

Most fanfics and even stories from the movies I've seen involving a character's """"fall""""' to the darkside involve characters who were already edgelords to begin with, in a society of lawful stupid characters like the Jedi-----whose arrogance and smugness alone make their destruction more cathartic than tragic-------have characters getting drunk on the darkside due to their own lack of self control more than the influence of the darkside itself.

The Darkside provides a necessary balance in the force, just like the Light. You got to have 50:50

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
11.07.2016 , 08:45 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by JKDGSGDKJA View Post
To hell with what GL originally intended or currently thinks. He's not even part of the movies anymore, and honestly RotJ was the beginning of his downfall, not the prequels.

I've always seen the Dark Side as a necessary count balance to the dogmatism and influence of the Light, emphasizing the material world and short term benefits rather than grand, obtuse understandings of patience and restraint.

Most fanfics and even stories from the movies I've seen involving a character's """"fall""""' to the darkside involve characters who were already edgelords to begin with, in a society of lawful stupid characters like the Jedi-----whose arrogance and smugness alone make their destruction more cathartic than tragic-------have characters getting drunk on the darkside due to their own lack of self control more than the influence of the darkside itself.

The Darkside provides a necessary balance in the force, just like the Light. You got to have 50:50
So, not a fan of Star Wars?

People were saying George was wrong about his own creation since the beginning

People pick and choose what they want. Not because they're right, they're not, but because they just like it better. They're basically making their own slash fic

And now, nothing George has said has been said to be wrong, as nothing has really changed from George's creation since he sold it.
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Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
11.07.2016 , 10:40 PM | #48
If you watch the Charlie Rose interview with GL, he mentions the idea of the force in relation to a general sort of mish-mash of religions throughout human history. He doesn't explicitly state this in the interview, but taking that into account, I think the dark side was supposed to simply be a metaphor for feeling pulled to do bad things, whether because of temptation or even with "the greater good" as the goal.

And the force is just a metaphor for the life force of the universe and the mysticism that surrounds it. The dark side is essentially a perversion of nature.

As to the speed with which someone gets seduced... I don't think Vader's story was ever supposed to be one of getting seduced in a heartbeat. The story of the prequels was poorly told overall, but I always got the impression that it was supposed to be a story of gradual progression. And it sort of was, but the execution was terrible. Anakin slowly became entangled with Padme, which made him more vulnerable to shoving aside the Jedi Code in favor of his relationship troubles. Palpatine slowly mentored and befriended him over time, making him more vulnerable to sticking with Palpy when the reveal came. And keep in mind that when Anakin turned, he had already been hardened by a prolonged war for years. It's a wonder he didn't have PTSD at that point (if SW was more adult, he probably would have).

And on top of that, the Jedi Council was basically shutting him out and saying, "No matter what you do, you will never be one of us. You will never be good enough."

So I don't think Anakin's progression was fast. It just came across as fast in Episode 3 because of how the story was executed.

As for Malak, I think it's safe to say his corruption was intricately tied to Revan's, considering their closeness, and we now know through the expanded lore of SWTOR and beyond that Revan was corrupted by the Sith Emperor, not just the dark side itself. Revan even says in this game, something along the lines of, "He called to me from across the galaxy. He made me a Darth."
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TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
11.08.2016 , 06:24 AM | #49
Guys I'm just going to put this in very simple terms. without darkness, light loses it's meaning, and vice versa. To completely destroy one or the other will invalidate the other.

Where I think George Lucan went wrong.
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jauvtus's Avatar


jauvtus
11.08.2016 , 08:26 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
Guys I'm just going to put this in very simple terms. without darkness, light loses it's meaning, and vice versa. To completely destroy one or the other will invalidate the other.

Where I think George Lucan went wrong.
I find it hard to understand when ppl say light cannot exist without dark and vice versa. Physically speaking, light EXISTS, while darkness is actually THE LACK OF light. In other words, there is no such thing as dark as a thing. It's an absence of an existing thing.
Can the Light Side of the Force exist without the Dark? Definitely. The Light Side feeds on life, while the Dark feeds on death. Life can be everlasting (theoretically speaking), while death has a definite limit. If the Dark Side was erased forever, the Light could thrive on perfectly without consequences. Life has meaning without death, too. So no, the Dark Side is not necessary to be. Light can destroy Dark, simply because it IS, while the Dark isn't a real thing. Btw, do you know which is the most powerful Force Power? It's not Vitiate's consuming ritual. It's called the Wall of Light. It's capable of literally destroying the Dark Side of the Force in individuals or celestial bodies. Not even Vitiate can resist or undo that.
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