With the new rule that you don't get credit for losses, BW has finally managed to finish the job it started years ago - to ruin PvP to the point it is unplayable. There were always the issues with running against premades and what not but now with the loss of the casual PvPer (because why play to lose?) it is even worse now. You can go entire days without picking up an point. Even assuming you are not playing with idiots, how are 4 PUG amaturs going to beat a premade ops group of pros?

And while we are on the subject, it is a hack or just inequity when it comes to stuns? I see PvPers that spam CC and will just shrug off being stunned multiple times every warzone. These are players that probably cannot win a straight up PvP fight without being able to stun 4, 5, 6 times in a row and are meanwhile invunerable to any stun thrown their way. Meanwhile I drop hydralic overrides and start death from above and am immediately dropped by an interrupt or a stun? How many times have you seen this cycle: mind maze/release/another mind maze/ objective captured. What is going on here?

And while we are on the subject, it is a hack or just inequity when it comes to stuns? I see PvPers that spam CC and will just shrug off being stunned multiple times every warzone. These are players that probably cannot win a straight up PvP fight without being able to stun 4, 5, 6 times in a row and are meanwhile invunerable to any stun thrown their way. Meanwhile I drop hydralic overrides and start death from above and am immediately dropped by an interrupt or a stun?

A mixture of skill, timing, and careful use of abilities is what makes players seem "invulnerable" to stuns. Of course if you just pop HO and then go to DfA you're going to be interrupted or stunned. HO doesn't even prevent stuns or interruptsto begin with.

How many times have you seen this cycle: mind maze/release/another mind maze/ objective captured. What is going on here?

Very rarely, because there's no reason to release when you get mind mazed once, because you know they can do it again. You just let the mind maze run out, wait for them to drop cover, or let them MM you twice, at which point you'll have a window of invulnerability to stuns.

I don't like to sound rude or elitist, but I don't think it's fair to talk about PvP being dead, or being killed off, or dying, when you seem not to fully understand your kit's abilities, the mechanics, or basic tactics in WZs.

Very rarely, because there's no reason to release when you get mind mazed once, because you know they can do it again. You just let the mind maze run out, wait for them to drop cover, or let them MM you twice, at which point you'll have a window of invulnerability to stuns.

If you don't release they can take the objective.

I don't like to sound rude or elitist, but I don't think it's fair to talk about PvP being dead, or being killed off, or dying, when you seem not to fully understand your kit's abilities, the mechanics, or basic tactics in WZs.

Which is exactly my point. You have a bunch of casuals playing against experts that choose classes/combat abilities with lots of stuns and releases specifically to build a PvP toon. How is one supposed to compete with the other.

But more to my point. With no credit for losses WHY would one want to play against the other?

w

If you don't release they can take the objective.

No, they can't. Once they start capping you can release and damage them, which will put them in combat and prevent another mind maze.

Whereas if you release first, they can MM you long enough to cap the point.

Which is exactly my point. You have a bunch of casuals playing against experts that choose classes/combat abilities with lots of stuns and releases specifically to build a PvP toon. How is one supposed to compete with the other.

I mean, what's your solution? It's inherent in PvP (or ought to be) that someone with more experience and skill should beat a player of less experience and skill.

The two changes that are discouraging are:

- Only wins count

- Deserter timeout

An additional issue is the inability to choose the match types. Some people like to play objective-based matches, others like Arenas and so on. There are a significant number of players who don't like either Huttball or OPG or both. Being able to choose the match types (like we can with FPs) would've gone a long way towards reducing desertion all by itself.

I think that this new rule that you have to win to get your dailies/weeklies done is probably a good thing... in ranked that is.

When 6.0 hit there were very poor rewards as well for doing any pvp; it's like they'd forgotten to add that. Or as I thought they were ready to kill pvp off. But then they suddenly added rewards and that confused things even more.

My conclusion: BioWare doesn't really know what they're doing with pvp. It makes BioSense™ in other words.

If you don't release they can take the objective.

The key here is that you want to stand, say 20 to 30 meters away from the objective instead of right on top of it. The few seconds that it takes them to run from you to the objective to start capturing it will allow enough of the mez timer on you to run out so that you'll be able to hit them with a ranged ability and stop the capture before it completes.

Which is exactly my point. You have a bunch of casuals playing against experts that choose classes/combat abilities with lots of stuns and releases specifically to build a PvP toon. How is one supposed to compete with the other.

But more to my point. With no credit for losses WHY would one want to play against the other?

w

Warzones, and even solo ranked, are not full of highly skilled and organized PvP players. Skill is rare, organization is even rarer.

That said, a certain amount of minimal competence is needed. Think of it like go-carts. You don't have to be a professional F-1 driver to have fun on a cart track, and most cart tracks are not full of professional race car drivers. On the other hand, if you have no clue what the throttle pedal, brake pedal, and steering wheel are supposed to be used for, you're not going to get around the track easily and carting might not seem very fun.

I personally suck at WZ and Arenas. I just am not that interested in the gameplay. I have done raiding in hard mode back when hard mode actually meant something, and so I can recognize that just as a PvPer might need to learn some things about PvE to be sucessful and have fun in an Operation, a PvE player also has to at least learn some basics to have any success in Warzones, which are the PvP equivalent of Story Chapters or Story Flashpoints.

The basics are you need to have the optional skill points in PvP skills not PvE skills. There's some overlap, and some classes and specs are less dependent on this, but in general you want points spent on stuns/snares or on stun/snare resistance/breaks and on mobility.

Then you need to learn how the stun/snare resistance mechanism works. There's a little bar on your UI. Every time you get hit with a stun, mez, root, or snare it fills up a bit. When it is full, you become immune to all crowd control effects for a little while. Learn to manage that bar, and it will be a complete change in how PvP works for you. The skill points and knowing how to respond to what the resistance bar is telling the player is about 90% of what is making PvP seem impossibly unfair to you. It's basic, basic stuff for PvP, in the same way that not standing in fire or interrupting one-shot killing blows from a boss NPC is basic stuff in an operation.

Learning the basics won't make you good at PvP or PvE, but it will transform the play experience from misery to a point where you can make an informed decision about, "do I like this game mode enough to want to get really good at it, or is it just kinda 'meh' for me?"

If PvP is 'meh' for you that's fine. It's 'meh' for me, and it's not a problem with enjoying the rest of SWTOR. But learn the very basics, because you can't really evaluate how good/fun the gameplay is if you're not actually doing the gameplay of that particular game mode.

Well that was fun. Got stuck in a WZ on the 3 side of a 3 vs 4. Anyone want to tell me that we lost because I don't know how to play my toon or couldn't beat the continual locks I received from the 4 opponents.

I think the bag on newbs I see in this thread actually make my point. Before we went to this "no credit for a loss system" people of all levels played PvP & warzones. I know this is a shock to many people in this forum but not everyone wants to play the way you do. A lot of casual players just want to play and have fun and not treat PvP like a master's level thesis. My point which some of you have seen and addressed is that casual players used to be willing to do PvP as something different or learn PvP and isn't there a companion you have to claim through PvP? Back then a person could argue that if at least participate a certain number of times per day/week they get some reward for that. With that incentive taken away many casuals no longer do PvP.

And more to the point of the "learn yer tewn derp" I have been on teams that lost PvP because

1) People don't guard objectives

2) People don't call incomings or notify their team when under attack

3) People go for medalist rather than wins

etc.

So one idiot on a team that screws up and now EVERYONE on that team loses any chance for a reward?

Again, why would a casual player want to do PvP anymore?.

Do you do anything but disingenuously describe other's positions?

No one is saying you need a Master's-Level-Thesis understanding of PvP to play it and enjoy it; they are saying you should have the right utilities and a basic understanding of mechanics and the classes you're playing against. FPs and Ops aren't fun, either, if no one has any clue what they're doing and are just diving in blind.

And like, sure, getting your butt kicked in a WZ or an arena is frustrating, but I can think of no scenario where I've said to myself, "Yeah, that was worth it because I got a few thousand credits," or, "Yeah, I'll risk 20 minutes of getting 3-capped on Alderaan because I might get a loot box."

I'm not convinced the rewards were ever motivation enough for a "casual" player; if they have no interest in PvP, I doubt the rewards were that much of a motivator (they certainly aren't for me!). Maybe a casual player just wants to, I dunno, PvP?

I agree the old reward system was better than the new one. I think it was you had to play 3 matches / day to get the reward? For me PVP is just casual fun and a way to test my skill against other players. It's definitely a frustrating experience when your team has no idea what they're doing while the other team is pro (though this mostly happens on lower levels I guess in my experience at least). It's easy win for the other team and complete waste of time for the others and can probably be discouraging to people who are new to the game or Warzones. I don't personally care about the rewards much, but obviously for new players that's something that can make the difference between whether they want to try and keep playing Warzones or not. There should be better balance to how the teams are picked.

Also, for some reason I constantly get the Arena of Death Warzones which are probably my least favorite one's. It feels like every single time I queue it's the Arena for like 10 times in a row. Even Huttball is more fun.

With the new rule that you don't get credit for losses, BW has finally managed to finish the job it started years ago - to ruin PvP to the point it is unplayable. There were always the issues with running against premades and what not but now with the loss of the casual PvPer (because why play to lose?) it is even worse now. You can go entire days without picking up an point. Even assuming you are not playing with idiots, how are 4 PUG amaturs going to beat a premade ops group of pros?

 

And while we are on the subject, it is a hack or just inequity when it comes to stuns? I see PvPers that spam CC and will just shrug off being stunned multiple times every warzone. These are players that probably cannot win a straight up PvP fight without being able to stun 4, 5, 6 times in a row and are meanwhile invunerable to any stun thrown their way. Meanwhile I drop hydralic overrides and start death from above and am immediately dropped by an interrupt or a stun? How many times have you seen this cycle: mind maze/release/another mind maze/ objective captured. What is going on here?

you can hide and sit on corner until wz end

pvp is doing pretty well with the changes, lots of the ppl just afk:ing at nodes aren't in que anymore and even most premades that used to just farm damage/numbers are doing objectives. the change is overall good for swtor but a few ppl that liked to afk at a node and didnt care if they win or lose still complain of course

They aren't the only ones complaining though. It's also the "lesser gods" that just do pvp for fun but can hardly win a match these days, so they don't get their dailies/weeklies done.

They aren't the only ones complaining though. It's also the "lesser gods" that just do pvp for fun but can hardly win a match these days, so they don't get their dailies/weeklies done.

yea that is understandable but I think you will end up winning a game or two if you que for 3-4 warzones,its very rare that you lose five out of five games, and often the determining factor is you and your impact in the game. Much like most pve/solo content if you are not doing well/play it right with the objectives you will be less successful than if you did well. Its just a bit of a skill grind to get good which will make you win far more games than you lose, but whilst you are getting that experience you might lose a few more games than you win

thats a small minority of players those, most of the complainers seems to be ppl who don't like that they now basically have to contribute towards their teams chance to win in order to get credit for their mission and not be able to just afk at a node

yea that is understandable but I think you will end up winning a game or two if you que for 3-4 warzones,its very rare that you lose five out of five games, and often the determining factor is you and your impact in the game. Much like most pve/solo content if you are not doing well/play it right with the objectives you will be less successful than if you did well. Its just a bit of a skill grind to get good which will make you win far more games than you lose, but whilst you are getting that experience you might lose a few more games than you win

 

thats a small minority of players those, most of the complainers seems to be ppl who don't like that they now basically have to contribute towards their teams chance to win in order to get credit for their mission and not be able to just afk at a node

Mind you, I stopped being interested in pvp some years ago, so I won't presume to know how often some things happen and I daresay you are making a lot of assumptions yourself here. Doesn't mean you're wrong necessarily but I would think that you can't back those numbers up. Especially when there are premades involved. Even before this change pugs would lose against premades time and again.

If indeed 3-4 warzones will generate at least one win then fair enough. Just not sure that's the case for everyone.

 

 

 

Which is exactly my point. You have a bunch of casuals playing against experts that choose classes/combat abilities with lots of stuns and releases specifically to build a PvP toon. How is one supposed to compete with the other.

That's the point of any PvP mode in any multiplayer game. You either get good or leave.

That's the point of any PvP mode in any multiplayer game. You either get good or leave.

I would disagree with that. It's probably (mostly) true in competitive PvP but in this game that ranked. And there some other reasons to play ranked because of the augment mats and some people are just gluttons for punishment I guess.

Unranked PvP, however, is the casual version. But the problem there is that you can get premades vs pugs. And ranked is also just 4v4 so I can imagine people coming to unranked just for variation.

By your proposition PvP would always self-destruct as a community so there is a need for casual PvP to keep new people coming in and some of those progressing into ranked. They haven't done so successfully in this game.

By your proposition PvP would always self-destruct as a community so there is a need for casual PvP to keep new people coming in and some of those progressing into ranked. They haven't done so successfully in this game.

To me - my humble opinion - PvP is just another aspect to many MMOs. In SWTOR there's the main 'story/game' and then there's extra bits like GSF, Strongholds/decorating, PvP, space battles, OPs, etc.

There's no reason to think that the devs should emphasize PvP over any other aspect and no reason to think the devs should encourage ranked PvP over unranked. BW is (or should be) more concerned about the basic MMO aspects of the game rather than trying to turn SWTOR in a MOBA.

To me - my humble opinion - PvP is just another aspect to many MMOs. In SWTOR there's the main 'story/game' and then there's extra bits like GSF, Strongholds/decorating, PvP, space battles, OPs, etc.

There's no reason to think that the devs should emphasize PvP over any other aspect and no reason to think the devs should encourage ranked PvP over unranked. BW is (or should be) more concerned about the basic MMO aspects of the game rather than trying to turn SWTOR in a MOBA.

For example, if more people are doing GSF than PvP it would naturally follow that they would put more emphasis on GSF.

But really, my guess would be that they get more 'involvement' with "events" such as Swoop Rally, Feast of Prosperity, etc, than with PvP; which is why they made new events.

EDIT - Lol! Oops. I meant edit the other post, not quote it. 😂

Whether the change to "win only" in regular warzones was generally good or bad for the game, I can't say. For me personally, it was a bad idea, because republic pugs are the worst, and unfortunately I don't like playing on imperial side. So I quit PvP completely for now. If you think that this is, because I'm a bad player or an AFK'er, so be it. I won't try to change your mind.

You do realise that there are no faction sides in pvp anymore and haven’t been for over 2 years? There is no republic or imperial only sides. They are now mixed. So you can play what ever side you want.

Mind you, I stopped being interested in pvp some years ago, so I won't presume to know how often some things happen and I daresay you are making a lot of assumptions yourself here. Doesn't mean you're wrong necessarily but I would think that you can't back those numbers up. Especially when there are premades involved. Even before this change pugs would lose against premades time and again.

 

If indeed 3-4 warzones will generate at least one win then fair enough. Just not sure that's the case for everyone.

I mean neither of us has any data to back up our claims, however my assumption that realistically on average players have roughly a 50/50 win rate is a lot more reasonable of an assumption than your claim of that an average PvP player will lose all their warzones, at least that is what you are alluding towards.

Sure there are premades but in most cases they face another premade and just like there are lots of good players there are a lot of bad players as well, just like there are a lot of objective focused players there are players just numberfarming. Much like one of the devs typed in a discussion about Ranked PvP, it all balances itself out in the end after enough games.

Whether the change to "win only" in regular warzones was generally good or bad for the game, I can't say. For me personally, it was a bad idea, because republic pugs are the worst, and unfortunately I don't like playing on imperial side. So I quit PvP completely for now. If you think that this is, because I'm a bad player or an AFK'er, so be it. I won't try to change your mind.

this used to be true, i want to say a few years ago but has not been the reality for quite a while, we have had cross-faction warzones for some time now, perhaps you haven't played the game in a bit?