I've finished Chapter XII on all classes now and there were a lot of odd things that I've observed throughout the chapter. Things that didn't make sense, didn't feel elaborate enough or felt strangely out of place. I have to admit, though, the overall feel of the chapter felt good and appropriate on some characters. That is, despite the fact that I'm listing things I consider mostly negative here. These are mostly little things that I noticed during subsequent playthroughs:

- The Gemini Frequency hyperwave comms station is 10 kms beneath Zakuul:

This just feels weird, you don't really put signal transcievers underground. Not at least if you want to get clear reception. I would expect such a facility to have an antenna that stretches into orbit, past atmospheric interference. Maybe it does and we're just invading the control room below the surface.

- Speaking to Valkorion in a secluded location outside the base:

Why? If I gathered something at the mission briefing, it's that the raid on the comms facility is extremely urgent. Why do we have to talk to Valkorion outside the base and waste valuable time? Why can we not talk to him on the hours-long shuttle ride to Zakuul? Pretty much everyone at the base knows the Eternal Emperor is in your head, what's to keep secret? A more time-effective way would be to get advice on the fly as you're moving through the base.

- Satele chilling in the woods 2 minutes from the Alliance base:

I can accept that Satele and Marr can somehow conceal their presence in the Force from Lana, Senya, Sana-Rae and the others. But how the hell are they concealing their starship? It's got power on, the navicomputer is running, the lights are turned on and there is no camouflage netting on top of it. Things like this tend to be noticed in the Star Wars universe. We've been on Odessen for months now and nobody scouted the area around the base? Nobody noticed Satele's not-at-all hidden camp on an aerial flyby mission or something? Not even the people who placed navigation cairns all around the base? But if it was Satele, then nobody noticed the orderly piled rocks on every pathway leading away from the base? The very least Dr. Oggorubb should have noticed them, since he was observing the accelerated evolution of imported wildlife in the Odessen wilderness.

- The first confrontation with Valkorion is happening in full view of base personnel:

I just noticed this yesterday. There is a landing platform outside the base and two guys are on it, conversing with each other. The platform has a direct view of the pond below, where your first confrontation takes place. It is within hearing distance, too, so when the Commander is inexplicably hit by lightning, shouldn't they be running screaming to Lana?

- Arcann struck a killing blow against us?:

Wait, what? When? If you go DS at the end of Chapter VIII, Arcann most definitely does NOT strike a killing blow against you, despite Valkorion's claim to the contrary. You beat the crap out of him, but then he activates his cutscene awesomeness. Then we have a chance to activate our cutscene awesomeness, which trumps his and he ends up flying out of the building. (This line is only appropriate if you go LS at the end of Chapter VIII).

- Satele's idea of casual manslaughter in the woods:

When you meet Satele for the first time, she makes an offhand remark about deciding not kill you, when she and Valkorion found you. I've found this especially baffling on a Jedi Knight or Consular. Satele is integral to the story of the Jedi Knight, she is practically our mentor and the Knight saves the Republic and the Jedi Order single-handedly on multiple occassions. We even saved Satele's life on Yavin, when we destroyed the Temple of Sacrifice. And her thanks is what, "be grateful I didn't kill you"? This is very, very un-Satele like. There should be some extra catch-up dialogue between her and Jedi classes. I mean we can't even ask what the **** happened to the Jedi Order and how many survivors there are.

- Satele abandonded the Republic and the Jedi Order?:

This again, seems to go against everything that was established about her. Maybe, just maybe she and the Jedi no longer serve the Republic, when it went from democracy to dictatorship overnight. But the Satele we got to know previously would NEVER, EVER abandon her fellow Jedi in the time of their greatest need. "Yo, the war has taken a bad turn, this responsibility is too much for me to bear, I'm out. I need to build a log-jumping obstacle course on Odessen, because it's extremely important right now. Peace."

- Marr still serving the Empire?:

Again, how? When you ask Marr about his reasons for taking a spirit form, he comments that he's still defending what's left of the Empire.....apparently by spending years arguing with Satele, exploring Odessen and making elaborate log-jumping obstacle courses. How is this in any way helpful to the remnants of the Empire? He's a freaking ghost, he could go to Zakuul and gather all kinds of useful intelligence for both the Empire and the Alliance. With his help, toppling Arcann's Empire would be so much easier, but no he leaves without sharing a single piece of useful information.

- Arcann and Vaylin are beyond Light and Dark?:

Everything we've seen about these two points to the contrary. Arcann is ruthless, cunning, calculating, manipulative and shrewd. Vaylin is a murderous psychopath. They're as evil and dark-sided as they come. They're both driven by passion. They're as much Sith as anyone can be. I can accept that most Knights of Zakuul are not inherently bad or evil and are just following their duty, but come on, Arcann and Vaylin are just pure evil. We do happen to have a former Knight on our team, but Senya doesn't mention anything about their children being more than Light or Dark.

- Non-Force users can suddenly use the Force?:

Because through the Force everything is possible. Except four classes are not Force-sensitive. I can accept Tech classes, too, have latent Force sensitivity and Valkorion somehow awakens this in them. But this is never elaborated in any meaningful way. One moment you're just an ordinary mook off the street, the next you can levitate weapon parts, tame animals with your mind, activate holocrons and jump ridiculous distances with pinpoint precision. I've found this silly and it felt really out-of-place.

- Resilience, Transcendence or Sacrifice?:

I honestly liked the weapon-building concept, but we have three fancy words without context to explain what these ideals are good for. They're just not fitting for many classes. A far better option would have been (in my opinion) to use Peace (LS), Power (Neutral) and Passion (DS). These could have given bonuses against Arcann based on your alignment. The more lightsided you are, the more powerful the first weapon becomes. The more evil you are, the more lethal the dark sided weapon becomes. Peace, Power and Passion are more easily indentifiable and relatable concepts than Resilience, Transcendence and Sacrifice.

- Satele and Marr embraced Valkorion's ideals?:

This felt particularly weird, the two mentors felt like simple mouthpieces for Valkorion. When all was said and done, the overall impression I got from them was "you must get more powaaah!" Anchor yourself to power. Change from within. Become something greater. Transcend Jedi and Sith philosophy. It's like you're still talking to Valkorion. (Maybe you are...)

All in all, the more I played through this chapter, the more off it felt. I don't know if it's the fact that they're cramming every class, faction and alignment into a singular one-size-fits-all story or that events on Odessen didn't exactly transpire as you thought they did. This kind of reminds me of the Mass Effect 3 indoctrination theory, where fans tried to come up with reasonable explanations for truly mediocre and nonsensical writing. Maybe Bioware got an idea there?

Fairly certain my agent was using rocket boots, not force leaps.

The levitating items, I took as Marr and Satele doing that for me. There's no indication that the character themselves are doing it if they aren't force sensitive.

In regards to Satele chilling two minutes from the base? Don't take in game distance as ACTUAL distance storywise.

Well said, OP.

KotFE makes less sense with every chapter.

Also, either they've gone into full "your decisions mean nothing compared to the power of The Story" mode, or multiple choice / conversation flags are broken again.

- The Gemini Frequency hyperwave comms station is 10 kms beneath Zakuul:

This just feels weird, you don't really put signal transcievers underground. Not at least if you want to get clear reception. I would expect such a facility to have an antenna that stretches into orbit, past atmospheric interference. Maybe it does and we're just invading the control room below the surface.

You are transmitting across the entire galaxy from that spot. Requirement to transmit through 10 km of rock (or the planet of zakuul behind the transmitter) is insignificant in comparison. Otherwise the transmission would be shadowed by planets and suns for example, particularly the planet the transmitter is on. The depth is for added security apparently.

- Speaking to Valkorion in a secluded location outside the base:

Why? If I gathered something at the mission briefing, it's that the raid on the comms facility is extremely urgent. Why do we have to talk to Valkorion outside the base and waste valuable time?

Firstly: I dont see a reason why the raid was urgent nor was it mentioned as such. That you need to be alone is Jedi/sith business in purest SW fashion. I approve it. Did Luke not walk away from the wake in order to speak to Ben and Anakin's force ghosts at the end of return of the jedi? Also I would definitely leave micromanaging for the others myself

- Satele chilling in the woods 2 minutes from the Alliance base:

Two minutes is abstraction. We don't know how much time passes during the cutscenes (both exit and entry).

Nobody noticed Satele's not-at-all hidden camp on an aerial flyby mission or something? Not even the people who placed navigation cairns all around the base? But if it was Satele, then nobody noticed the orderly piled rocks on every pathway leading away from the base? The very least Dr. Oggorubb should have noticed them, since he was observing the accelerated evolution of imported wildlife in the Odessen wilderness.

These are not the droids you are looking for

- The first confrontation with Valkorion is happening in full view of base personnel:

I just noticed this yesterday. There is a landing platform outside the base and two guys are on it, conversing with each other. The platform has a direct view of the pond below, where your first confrontation takes place. It is within hearing distance, too, so when the Commander is inexplicably hit by lightning, shouldn't they be running screaming to Lana?

Ok that is an oversight.

- Arcann struck a killing blow against us?:

Wait, what? When? If you go DS at the end of Chapter VIII, Arcann most definitely does NOT strike a killing blow against you, despite Valkorion's claim to the contrary. You beat the crap out of him, but then he activates his cutscene awesomeness.

Valkorions reasoning is that he protected the outlander from Arcann in that fight. Ie. if V hadnt been htere, it wouldve been a killing blow. This is just the new railroading we better get used to. V is a deus ex machina.

- Satele's idea of casual manslaughter in the woods:

When you meet Satele for the first time, she makes an offhand remark about deciding not kill you, when she and Valkorion found you. I've found this especially baffling on a Jedi Knight or Consular. Satele is integral to the story of the Jedi Knight, she is practically our mentor and the Knight saves the Republic and the Jedi Order single-handedly on multiple occassions.

Isn't this comment reserved for imperial characters? In any case the question is academical and is just Satele's poke at outlander for not being more careful.

- Satele abandonded the Republic and the Jedi Order?:

This again, seems to go against everything that was established about her.

No it doesn't. It implies that jedi order is no more. Similarly to how Yoda retreated to Dagobah after order 66

- Arcann and Vaylin are beyond Light and Dark?:

Everything we've seen about these two points to the contrary. Arcann is ruthless, cunning, calculating, manipulative and shrewd. Vaylin is a murderous psychopath. They're as evil and dark-sided as they come. They're both driven by passion. They're as much Sith as anyone can be.

I would refer to my other posts on the matter, but here it is again:

Its about Bioware "Revanizing" the story characters in order to better accommodate the "one story for all" approach. It is implied that you can play with the big boys only if you are a master of both light and dark, just like Revan was. For Bioware, its not about being evil or good (however much sense that makes).

- Non-Force users can suddenly use the Force?:

Because through the Force everything is possible. Except four classes are not Force-sensitive. I can accept Tech classes, too, have latent Force sensitivity and Valkorion somehow awakens this in them. But this is never elaborated in any meaningful way. One moment you're just an ordinary mook off the street, the next you can levitate weapon parts, tame animals with your mind, activate holocrons and jump ridiculous distances with pinpoint precision. I've found this silly and it felt really out-of-place.

This is why Valkorion was forcefully inserted in you. The handwaving explanation is that he is now the source of all force phenomena that the outlander does.

- Satele and Marr embraced Valkorion's ideals?:

This felt particularly weird, the two mentors felt like simple mouthpieces for Valkorion. When all was said and done, the overall impression I got from them was "you must get more powaaah!" Anchor yourself to power. Change from within. Become something greater. Transcend Jedi and Sith philosophy. It's like you're still talking to Valkorion. (Maybe you are...)

See part about Arcann and Vaylin.

Firstly: I dont see a reason why the raid was urgent nor was it mentioned as such. That you need to be alone is Jedi/sith business in purest SW fashion. I approve it. Did Luke not walk away from the wake in order to speak to Ben and Anakin's force ghosts at the end of return of the jedi? Also I would definitely leave micromanaging for the others myself

They mentioned it was urgent because the Intel they intercepted was soon to be outdated if they didn't act quick enough. Hence them leaving without you joining the operation.

 

Two minutes is abstraction. We don't know how much time passes during the cutscenes (both exit and entry).

Abstraction or not... still seems odd that Satele has never been spotted with all the obvious clues of her existence.

No it doesn't. It implies that jedi order is no more. Similarly to how Yoda retreated to Dagobah after order 66

EU aside, the order of the Jedi were reduced to single digit numbers and that the entire army the Jedi fought beside is against them. The old republic still has all their troops, hundreds of Jedi and starships, Yoda had nothing but two kids and the best defensive duelist around.

These caught my eye.

Well said, OP.

 

KotFE makes less sense with every chapter.

 

"your decisions mean nothing compared to the power of The Story"

When was that different last time with Bioware? Baldur's Gate? Their RPGs are heavily on rails since I jumped in, back in the days of first ME. This is just an example of how lazy those rails have become now.

Light side, I felt the story made perfect sense,

However dark side annoyed the hell out of me, arcann did not get a killing blow at all,

All along I had agreed with valk , even kneeling to him in chapter one, yet he suddenly went from BFF to the neighbour from hell. Being so dismissing when you have always agreed with him, felt jarring and out of place

questions for op:

have you ever thought that we land on and leave zakuul with our pathetic ship while zakkul supposedly being guarded by eternal fleet??

have you ever thought how come we are training and supplying a rebel camp right in middle of zakkul??

Light side, I felt the story made perfect sense,

However dark side annoyed the hell out of me, arcann did not get a killing blow at all,

All along I had agreed with valk , even kneeling to him in chapter one, yet he suddenly went from BFF to the neighbour from hell. Being so dismissing when you have always agreed with him, felt jarring and out of place

TBH, accepting Valkoiron's powers mostly feels out of place to begin with. Jedi's reasons are obvious, both of them clashing with Emperor before. Sith have a bad history of masters granting them "free" power. Agent has history of *********** with his/her mind in general.

Great list CommanderKeeva!!! I absolutely agree 100% with everything you listed.

That being said...it was still a better chapter than 10 and 11 were. I'll take the story not making sense for every class over it being just dumb any day

I agree with most of the stuff on the list.

My biggest peeve, though, is that we are able to "summon" Val in the secluded area. Since when do we get access to him on command?

Didn't it say somewhere in an earlier chapter that it doesn't work that way?

And, if we had that ability, why wouldn't we have questioned him about anything and everything by now? I'd either be his life partner or dead by this point because I wouldn't be putting up with his crap for months on end while trying to build an army.

I agree with most of the stuff on the list.

 

My biggest peeve, though, is that we are able to "summon" Val in the secluded area. Since when do we get access to him on command?

 

Didn't it say somewhere in an earlier chapter that it doesn't work that way?

 

And, if we had that ability, why wouldn't we have questioned him about anything and everything by now? I'd either be his life partner or dead by this point because I wouldn't be putting up with his crap for months on end while trying to build an army.

He's always their, whether or not you guys respond to each other is different. You can talk to him whenever, and he can talk to you whenever.

I agree with most of the stuff on the list.

 

My biggest peeve, though, is that we are able to "summon" Val in the secluded area. Since when do we get access to him on command?

 

Didn't it say somewhere in an earlier chapter that it doesn't work that way?

 

And, if we had that ability, why wouldn't we have questioned him about anything and everything by now? I'd either be his life partner or dead by this point because I wouldn't be putting up with his crap for months on end while trying to build an army.

He's like herpes...he's always there and he'll only emerge at the worst possible time

Light side, I felt the story made perfect sense,

However dark side annoyed the hell out of me,

DS characters are simply broken:

- thrown into an alliance for the greater good with people they hate

- many of these people deserve to die for their impertinence and disobedience (Koth, Jorgan, etc.)

- living on a paradise-planet ( It's so GREEEN !!!!)

- making speeches without any consequence (remember the "oppressive speech" ? where is this oppression now ? in the cantina, where I can take a drink with my friends ?!? - a drink ! my whole face is scarred and I'm wearing a mask, but sure....)

- making empty threats ( all the time a chose the "you have no idea what I can do to you"-option - now I feel like sobbing Anakin Skywalker )

- and finally: being friends with everybody

Most people in the galaxy should hate my character. Not "hate" like in "I don't like you", but "hate" like in "You killed my father, tortured my mother and destroyed everything I ever loved".

Solution: become a "grey" Jedi. Wheeeeee !!!!

I can't quite understand how I can zoom my speeder all over the Alliance war room - (In one case a Bantha)

Yet when I go out into the wide open countryside outside the base, there's a big invisible "NO BANTHAS" sign. GRR!

- I think the only reason Darth Marr's Ghost is hanging around Satele's camp is so he can watch while she has a shower under the waterfall....

I agree with your well thought out list, OP.

I would add that one of my biggest peeves is how I am supposedly the commander-in-chief of the Alliance and yet people under my command, having received a direct order during a vital combat operation, openly defy that order, to my face, and go do whatever they (BW) wants to do, instead. I'm looking at you, Major Jorgan.

First in Chapter 11 and now again at the very end of Chapter 12, if you don't do exactly what Jorgan the special snowflake thinks should be done, he gives you the metaphorical middle finger in front of the Alliance command staff and goes off the reservation. He gives you a ration of **** for being late, calls your order into question twice, and then outright defies your orders before signing off and leaving you standing there holding your hydrospanner.

I mean, seriously? I can kinda squint my eyes to see my way to handwaving him not really wanting to work for me in Chapter 11 and then arguing with every single order I give, and ultimately making me his companion during the chapter, by telling myself he's just a Pub jerk really uncomfortable working for the lady who assassinated the previous Chancellor. My first instinct was to just bury him in the swamp and call it a day, but I didn't get that option, so whatever. But he's supposedly fully on board with the Alliance by this point. Why is it OK for him to constantly display insubordination and refuse to follow orders?

In fact, he refuses to follow a direct order given before the enemy (during combat) which is an offense punishable by execution. At the very least, he would be relieved of his command right then and his second would take over until he could be returned to base and tossed in the stockade until his court martial.

It's bad enough nearly everyone else who I outrank feels they know what's best and throw hissy fits about my orders constantly in the privacy of the command bunker, but now soldiers in the field can tell me to go screw, too?

I had high hopes when I saw some initial good reviews for this chapter. But for many of the reasons brought up by the OP (and I have a few myself), this chapter was just terrible.

Besides the OP's list:

So we're making magic weapons now?

What is this Dragon Age? Our lightsaber, gun, knife, etc. isn't enough to pierce Arcann's story armor? OK.

Beyond light and dark

No, no, no, a thousand times no. The force doesn't work like that. If they are serious, this undercuts everything the Star Wars movies have told us about the force. I can only hope this is some trick by Valkorian.

I agree with your well thought out list, OP.

 

I would add that one of my biggest peeves is how I am supposedly the commander-in-chief of the Alliance and yet people under my command, having received a direct order during a vital combat operation, openly defy that order, to my face, and go do whatever they (BW) wants to do, instead. I'm looking at you, Major Jorgan.

 

First in Chapter 11 and now again at the very end of Chapter 12, if you don't do exactly what Jorgan the special snowflake thinks should be done, he gives you the metaphorical middle finger in front of the Alliance command staff and goes off the reservation. He gives you a ration of **** for being late, calls your order into question twice, and then outright defies your orders before signing off and leaving you standing there holding your hydrospanner.

 

I mean, seriously? I can kinda squint my eyes to see my way to handwaving him not really wanting to work for me in Chapter 11 and then arguing with every single order I give, and ultimately making me his companion during the chapter, by telling myself he's just a Pub jerk really uncomfortable working for the lady who assassinated the previous Chancellor. My first instinct was to just bury him in the swamp and call it a day, but I didn't get that option, so whatever. But he's supposedly fully on board with the Alliance by this point. Why is it OK for him to constantly display insubordination and refuse to follow orders?

 

In fact, he refuses to follow a direct order given before the enemy (during combat) which is an offense punishable by execution. At the very least, he would be relieved of his command right then and his second would take over until he could be returned to base and tossed in the stockade until his court martial.

 

It's bad enough nearly everyone else who I outrank feels they know what's best and throw hissy fits about my orders constantly in the privacy of the command bunker, but now soldiers in the field can tell me to go screw, too?

during the last devs live stream, they said in the next chapter you will face fatal decision, most probably both kylo and jorgan were captured and you can only rescue one but it could be something else entirely.

but yes as sith warrior i was like that SOB is dead much like when i wanted to kill quinn but there was no option and it was bummer, i hope next chapter we get to kill him.

Isn't this comment reserved for imperial characters? In any case the question is academical and is just Satele's poke at outlander for not being more careful.

.

No, she said the exact same line to my LS trooper and Jedi knight.

It didn't feel like any kind of "poke" or jest to me. It definitely does NOT feel like something a jedi master would normally say, as one of the reply options indicates.

Beyond light and dark

 

No, no, no, a thousand times no. The force doesn't work like that. If they are serious, this undercuts everything the Star Wars movies have told us about the force. I can only hope this is some trick by Valkorian.

I believe the fallacy Bioware is grasping at is argumentum ad temperantiam.

i have to admit a lot of the op points are valid, i did still enjoy the force focused chapter though even with a lot of valid points pointed out.

i couldnt imagine the jedi orders grandmaster at her age ingame suddenly abandoning a lifetimes devotion and embracing a new way of the force and leaving her order and comrades in the lurch which basically she has done.

despite shes old id still like to have her join as a companion shes sure better than the other useless force users weve been given.

in many ways the story reminds me a lot of the old lores vong war story, a new military power sweeping aside war weary opponents on a path of conquest through out the galaxy devastating all before them.

in the vong lore the jedi won the war really after embracing a philosophy of the force by jacen after his escape from the vong and being taught by vergere, in many ways the knights of zakuul with there non light or dark seem to be very similar . like the imperial knights just swapped over to serve the eternal throne instead , either way they serve the darkside so its upto the jedi to restore peace once again