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If not RNG ... then what are the options?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
If not RNG ... then what are the options?

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.15.2019 , 09:14 AM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by JediQuaker View Post
I don't know what specifically you mean by "ALL the feedback", but I would think it involves more than just the complainers on the forums.
Some people on these forums seem to think that BW should only listen to their complaints and ignore what may (or may not) actually bring in new subscribers.

Personally, being a "casual" (but constant) player, gear is not that important. I'm not necessarily in favor of RNG, but I'm not against it either.
You're right, ALL of the feedback is...impractical.

My view of player forums, for this game and the last MMO I played, has always been a place for the devs to get a general feel for player happiness. There are other methods available to them, I would hope, to narrow down specifics.

However, and I feel it to be apparent with the several big issues with 6.0 as released on PTS, there are enough players posting where they have to see that it isn't just the "usual naysayers" (such as myself since 5.0) telling them there is a problem.

I'm not doing it to be contrary out of spite. I honestly believe these systems were, and are going to be, a net negative for the game as a whole. Right now the biggest issue I see is the vast increase in RNG.

I noticed it in the amplifier system. Many posters felt it wasn't a big deal, amplifiers were a "neat addition and it didn't matter HOW it was implemented, only that we were getting a new system." Ok, fine. I disagree, but was pretty much the only one at the time and it certainly wasn't the BIGGEST issue so I shut up about it.

The RNG issue really came into light shortly after that and this time it wasn't only me saying "hey, there's a problem here."

There is a problem with loot acquisition on PTS. There is a problem with the type of loot dropping (as seen in a different thread about how 6.0 could negatively affect their CM sales - their cash shop/money maker).

There has been a long history of being able to work toward gearing up via direct in game sales of some form or another for at least 5 years. I remember being able to do it with Black Hole tokens. I remember being able to do it with the crystal system that replaced the Black Hole tokens. I remember them taking that away with 5.0 and then putting something else in place when there was a loud enough outcry from the players...being the specific tokens we get from operation bosses.

Now they planned to take all that away again. Luckily, there was a mostly unified mood swing on the forums saying "Hey, this is a problem and we don't like it."
They saw it and made a first round of changes to one of the vendors. That vendor is still RNG but it's "targeted" RNG. So it's still bad, but it's LESS bad.
They also stated that they are going to implement a direct sales vendor.

We'll check it out when we see it.

While you may not see RNG as a problem when it's the ONLY loot/gearing system in place, many of the rest of us here do.
And if it had been put in place, all of the people who play and DON'T post, who also have an issue with it, would just leave.
The people posting about it now, beforehand, actually like the game enough to try to point out problems that prevent these mass exoduses.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

Pirana's Avatar


Pirana
09.15.2019 , 09:15 AM | #92
Commendations for gear from all content run and gear drops from Ops bosses. Pretty simple. A bit of rng is fine, but it can't run or in this case, ruin the game. The only reason rng was introduced was to prolong the gear grind because new content was sporadic. The upcoming changes the devs are implementing will hopefully be satisfactory.
The Journey Is Often Greater Than The Destination

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.15.2019 , 09:33 AM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by JediQuaker View Post
Personally, being a "casual" (but constant) player, gear is not that important. I'm not necessarily in favor of RNG, but I'm not against it either.
Good for you. ^

I care about gears and find them am important part of my MMO gaming experience and always have. They already have made gearing a far less enjoyable activity in the game and they are posed to make it even worse with 6.0.

I feel fairly confident most gamers on SWTOR view gear as important, the only players who do not would be RPers who play the game for purely social purposes and not gameplay.

They are shooting themselves in both feet with the ultra RNG, and the un-moddable gears is just filthy dirt icing on the trashy disgusting cake. These are bad changes that will hurt the game if they go live as is at this moment from PTS.

Let's think about this. Has SWTOR ever been a MMO where gears meant nothing to the game? Nope. Gears always mattered, and played a big part as a major activity for players to spend their time on in the game.

How can anyone minimalise gearing on SWTOR? I like white knights, it's good to defend the things you love but come on... No one in their right minds can defend this stuff lol.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
09.15.2019 , 11:28 AM | #94
Specific gear has never been needed until end-game. This had been tru since 2011. Importance of gear varies from player to player, but the time in which it takes to acquire the gear is self-important. Its not equal to all, and isnt something that BW can specifically and statistically calculate to determine. The time frame is going to be determined by them, not by the player. And, if you take time to think about it, RNG actually helps most active players acquire their gear faster.

For example - lets assume BW sets average acquisition date of BIS gear as 3 months. You may or may not like that time requirement, but its their choice.

In a loot system they give complete control to the player (i.e no RNG, just componentsto purchase), that date is much more likely to be hard-controlled by BW. No matter how much or how little you play, you wont be BIS geared until 3 months after release. Take it or leave it.

However, in a loot system where RNG is a major part, its much more difficult for BW to control loot acquisition, because its based on the average player. The more active player will give themselves more opportunities to acquire loot, possibly better loot, than the less active player. Since BW cant control your playtime amd activity, YOU are in more control and can possibly acquire BIS in less than 3 months. And while it IS possible it can take longer than 3 months with bad luck RNG, its statistically unlikely that the majority of players (of the same active playtime) will experiencs slower loot acquisition.

Players want more control over loot acquisition, but they dont truly understand what they actually control. They dont seem to understand the actual benefits of the RNG system to activity. People who are threatening to leave (or do leave) likely dont understand that BW is giving them more control over loot based on statistical probability.

Google single event probability vs cumulative probability for more details.

In the end, and i dont truly expect many people to completely change their view on RNG, RNG is much more player friendly than people understand. For this reason, i can certainly understand if the dev team is sitting there scratching their heads in frustration with no idea what the playerbase wants. They hear "we hate RNG" and "we want more control over gearing" and "we dont want to grind," but each of those completely contradicts the others.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.15.2019 , 01:13 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
In the end, and i dont truly expect many people to completely change their view on RNG, RNG is much more player friendly than people understand.
I think you underestimate the average intelligence of the playerbase. There's nothing complex about RNG, everyone understands the concept of RNG.

Also, what does that even mean, RNG is "player friendly." I mean if you are saying it's simplistic and requires no thought on behalf of the player, then yes it's player friendly but that's not the complaint against it.

We have come to the conclusion that RNG is fine when used as a part of gearing it's just not enjoyable when every facet of gearing has a RNG factor to it. You probably agree with this, too I am sure.


Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
For this reason, i can certainly understand if the dev team is sitting there scratching their heads in frustration with no idea what the playerbase wants. They hear "we hate RNG" and "we want more control over gearing" and "we dont want to grind," but each of those completely contradicts the others.
Eric Musco indicates that they are working to walk back the RNG, so although you might be confused and scratching your head wondering what the players want the community manager and the dev team is not.

That's the important thing here, not that an individual player is confused as to what the playerbase wants. If you still are struggling with understanding what the players want, I'd suggest re-reading the many threads written by the players explaining what it is about RNG they dislike. Many of them are well written and go into great detail how too much RNG is frustrating.

I think it's sad that they feel they need to use RNG so heavily for their gearing because that means whoever is making the decisions for the game design has no confidence that the content itself is good enough to keep people active and engaged with the game.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
09.15.2019 , 02:03 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
I think you underestimate the average intelligence of the playerbase. There's nothing complex about RNG, everyone understands the concept of RNG.

Also, what does that even mean, RNG is "player friendly." I mean if you are saying it's simplistic and requires no thought on behalf of the player, then yes it's player friendly but that's not the complaint against it.

We have come to the conclusion that RNG is fine when used as a part of gearing it's just not enjoyable when every facet of gearing has a RNG factor to it. You probably agree with this, too I am sure.




Eric Musco indicates that they are working to walk back the RNG, so although you might be confused and scratching your head wondering what the players want the community manager and the dev team is not.

That's the important thing here, not that an individual player is confused as to what the playerbase wants. If you still are struggling with understanding what the players want, I'd suggest re-reading the many threads written by the players explaining what it is about RNG they dislike. Many of them are well written and go into great detail how too much RNG is frustrating.

I think it's sad that they feel they need to use RNG so heavily for their gearing because that means whoever is making the decisions for the game design has no confidence that the content itself is good enough to keep people active and engaged with the game.
I think people are throwing out the idea of loot acquisition as a very simple process, when there are more facets to it than choosing whether to have RNG or not. So people saying to eliminate RNG are being shortsighted. And, as i said, dont truly understand the benefit of it. They know what RNG is, but not how applicable and beneficial it is. RNG is player friendly because it follows the "you get in what you put out" more in the long term than short term.

As for Musco and the team making changes, it was to be expected because thats what good companies do - make tweaks to satisfy the percieved wants of their playerbase, but hy no means does it indicate or conclude that they feel its better or agree with the vocal playerbase. They arent completely overhauling the system, and you can bet that RNG will still be a big part. That said, those tweak, however, show they are willing to compromise more than the playerbase though. Again, a win for BW.

Damask_Rose's Avatar


Damask_Rose
09.15.2019 , 06:14 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
They hear "we hate RNG" and "we want more control over gearing" and "we dont want to grind," but each of those completely contradicts the others.
They aren't contradictory what so ever. Having a method of direct purchasing gear and/or getting specific drops that does not involve RNG can work just fine without having a massive grind. Oooh, like say the last version of Galactic Command. Not a massive grind to purchase gear off the vendors and then upgrade that gear and/or earn tokens from ops. bosses.

Direct purchase is 100% control over gearing. Where as RNG is no control over gearing. How does that contradict? It doesn't. It is perfectly aligned.

Not wanting to grind is simply a matter of how the numbers are tweaked and if artificial caps are put on. Not wanting to grind is the background state for any gear acquisition method they put in whether it be direct purchase or pure RNG. Not wanting to run 50 flashpoints for the currency to buy what you need is no different than not wanting to run 50 flashpoints to maybe getting the right lucky drop. So again, no contradiction.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
09.16.2019 , 08:07 AM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
They aren't contradictory what so ever. Having a method of direct purchasing gear and/or getting specific drops that does not involve RNG can work just fine without having a massive grind. Oooh, like say the last version of Galactic Command. Not a massive grind to purchase gear off the vendors and then upgrade that gear and/or earn tokens from ops. bosses.

Direct purchase is 100% control over gearing. Where as RNG is no control over gearing. How does that contradict? It doesn't. It is perfectly aligned.

Not wanting to grind is simply a matter of how the numbers are tweaked and if artificial caps are put on. Not wanting to grind is the background state for any gear acquisition method they put in whether it be direct purchase or pure RNG. Not wanting to run 50 flashpoints for the currency to buy what you need is no different than not wanting to run 50 flashpoints to maybe getting the right lucky drop. So again, no contradiction.
Oh, forgot "we want a simple loot system" as one of the contradictory requests too.

And you have it incorrect. No system is 100% in control of the player, not even direct purchase. In direct purchase systems, the player does not control how frequently/quickly they can obtain those tokens. That is controlled by BW.

People dismiss it like its not important, but its equally important to how you obtain the loot.

All facets evaluated in totality, RNG gives the most control to the player.

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
09.16.2019 , 10:56 AM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
You're right, ALL of the feedback is...impractical.

My view of player forums, for this game and the last MMO I played, has always been a place for the devs to get a general feel for player happiness. There are other methods available to them, I would hope, to narrow down specifics.

However, and I feel it to be apparent with the several big issues with 6.0 as released on PTS, there are enough players posting where they have to see that it isn't just the "usual naysayers" (such as myself since 5.0) telling them there is a problem.

I'm not doing it to be contrary out of spite. I honestly believe these systems were, and are going to be, a net negative for the game as a whole. Right now the biggest issue I see is the vast increase in RNG.

I noticed it in the amplifier system. Many posters felt it wasn't a big deal, amplifiers were a "neat addition and it didn't matter HOW it was implemented, only that we were getting a new system." Ok, fine. I disagree, but was pretty much the only one at the time and it certainly wasn't the BIGGEST issue so I shut up about it.

The RNG issue really came into light shortly after that and this time it wasn't only me saying "hey, there's a problem here."

There is a problem with loot acquisition on PTS. There is a problem with the type of loot dropping (as seen in a different thread about how 6.0 could negatively affect their CM sales - their cash shop/money maker).

There has been a long history of being able to work toward gearing up via direct in game sales of some form or another for at least 5 years. I remember being able to do it with Black Hole tokens. I remember being able to do it with the crystal system that replaced the Black Hole tokens. I remember them taking that away with 5.0 and then putting something else in place when there was a loud enough outcry from the players...being the specific tokens we get from operation bosses.

Now they planned to take all that away again. Luckily, there was a mostly unified mood swing on the forums saying "Hey, this is a problem and we don't like it."
They saw it and made a first round of changes to one of the vendors. That vendor is still RNG but it's "targeted" RNG. So it's still bad, but it's LESS bad.
They also stated that they are going to implement a direct sales vendor.

We'll check it out when we see it.

While you may not see RNG as a problem when it's the ONLY loot/gearing system in place, many of the rest of us here do.
And if it had been put in place, all of the people who play and DON'T post, who also have an issue with it, would just leave.
The people posting about it now, beforehand, actually like the game enough to try to point out problems that prevent these mass exoduses.
Once again well said.

It should be noted that I'm pretty much sticking to my guns on this as well. In one of the posts (different thread) it was pretty much summed up : a little RNG is not a problem. BUT when RNG becomes the main gearing support mechanism THAT IS a problem.

We have been promised that the PTS will be updated this week with some more changes. Even though I'm spending a significant amount of time making preparations for "business at the office" this weekend be rest assured I WILL be watching this carefully.

OH !! Let me throw this out if I may...

RNG and "progression" throughout the game... just how closely connected are they? RNG vs GRINDING and progression ?? I'm not talking about leveling (in this case to 75) but access to different raids / OP's etc.

I'm not talking about opening a discussion on why some players want to belittle BW and why it's not done right .. I'm talking about progressing through the game obtaining "the right stuff " and thereby successfully in raids, OPs etc.

I may be way out on a limb on this but it seems like somewhere in there gear and progression should be intertwined !

What's the point of obtaining BIS (or even reasonably good gear for that matter) if there is no practical application?

I'm wondering if RNG (if it is used as a primary source of gearing up) .. is a substitution for progression of some sort?

(Just wondering )

I really AM wanting to see what happens on the PTS this week.
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