eNcFireWraith Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) The problem is there are almost no melee-friendly mechanics that can't also be ranged-friendly mechanics by simply making the range go into melee-range. And the mechanics that do exist are overplayed like crazy (need X number of people to stand X meters away from the boss, bla bla). Edited January 30, 2012 by eNcFireWraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Without damage meters or parsers, who's to say that melee are being out performed by ranged? What, because they have to stop dpsing to avoid an aoe move? So what? For all we know melee have the highest dps and end up doing top dmg to a boss even with having to stop dpsing to avoid things. You're trying to sugar coat a problem by saying "screen shot or it didn't happen", when the answer is obvious with or without damage meters. Fact, melees take more healing because they can't avoid all of the damage by simply standing out of range. Fact, melees spend less time actually DPSing because they're dodging more than the ranged do. Fact, the content is easier with all ranged. Fact, melees are not any more survivable than ranged. Is it that hard to put 2 and 2 together? If you don't have meters, then try running with ranged and try running it with melees. The difference is so profound it's pathetic. There are so many obvious advantages to running the content with an all ranged team, while there are none to running it with all, or even just a few, melee. You can't sweep that under the rug because oh noes, you don't have your DPS meters. Try another one on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exertim Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Honestly, Karagga as a whole feels a lot more melee friendly than EV is. My DPS uptime on every boss in there (save Foreman and his melee knockbacks) is close to 100% so maybe Bioware is already aware of the problem and all future content will be just as melee friendly. EV, on the other hand, is completely terrible for us. Turrets are unhittable for melee, Gharj's idiotic leaps that do almost 10k damage on Nightmare to melee (somewhat better for Marauders/Sentinels since we can Force Camo one and -negative accuracy debuff another), and of course, the only fight that actually matters in EV, Soa. I honestly want to know whose bright idea it was to make him immune to Force Leap past phase 1, effectively killing the SW/JK's only gap closer (and resource builder for Anni/Watch). Not only are you losing a ton of DPS uptime when you run back and forth between mind traps and the boss, but you're also running at base move speed without a gap closer while ranged can just sit in the middle and switch between mind traps and Soa without much movement outside of lightning balls. Also, you want a DPS comparison? Put a melee and a ranged on the same Infernal Council mob type and have them go at it. I tend to kill mine with ~1600-1650 DPS as Watchman/Annihilation at the same time as my Sage guildy who is Balance/Telekinetics hybrid spec. Keep in mind that I have 100% DPS uptime on this mob, which simply doesn't happen on every operations boss due to mechanics. Edited January 30, 2012 by Exertim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicholaiJS Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Sigh: Melee is much harder to balance in a PVE environment because of the way tanking dynamics and positioning works. Sometimes though, it isn't a melee problem but a player problem. If boss tosses out a slow moving ball from his position, melee must react much faster than the ranged, I'll admit sometimes it isn't possible to react quick enough between lag + having to be inside the boss' balls. 110% threat as opposed to 130% threat to pull agro is kind of dumb in this game since like nothing that can be tanked is immune to taunt. The melee should have more threat leeway. Btw which fights are we talking about again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Sigh: Melee is much harder to balance in a PVE environment because of the way tanking dynamics and positioning works. Sometimes though, it isn't a melee problem but a player problem. If boss tosses out a slow moving ball from his position, melee must react much faster than the ranged, I'll admit sometimes it isn't possible to react quick enough between lag + having to be inside the boss' balls. What are you on about? The fights are melee unfriendly because they have point blank area attacks that are designed to hit melee only. Most of them are either launchers or CC, which break the stream of melee DPS. Ranged don't have to worry about them because they're outside the radius. They can DPS away unchallenged. Why should melee have to put up with that just because they chose to play a class that gets up close and personal? Do they put out more DPS? No. Do they have more HP? No. What's the advantage of playing a melee? There only seems to be an advantage to being ranged. 110% threat as opposed to 130% threat to pull agro is kind of dumb in this game since like nothing that can be tanked is immune to taunt. The melee should have more threat leeway. Btw which fights are we talking about again? The most obvious fight I can think of is the first boss in Esseles. It's not a raid boss, but it's very melee unkind. If you're at point blank, especially if you're a melee tank, he'll knock you over about once every 10 seconds. That means every time the adds spawn you're eating pavement while the ranged are unaffected. If you're a ranged tank then you don't even have to worry about this. He's a ranged too, so he won't move over to you to knock you to the ground. If you have to get close, however, say to hold threat, you'll spend more time on your back than you will actually fighting. Don't even get me started on EV bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumani Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Don't even get me started on EV bosses. the bosses are pretty easy at this point, that it doesent matter, that you lose a bit dps compared to ranged. In IRL some jobs pays you more than others, while you have to do less on them, so what? You got to choose what to do (irl and in game), and I prefer to do things I like more. I've done soa on hardmode with 3melees + melee tank(me), and KV hard with 4 melees and melee tank. Not in a single instance / raid I have encountered this far, we would have wiped becouse melee coudnt bring enough dps. And on some bosses like ev's first, we prefer just overheal the missile part, by going next to boss which means that ranged has to run to boss, while melee just whacks away the whole fight. -B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkwingGT Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 In IRL some jobs pays you more than others, while you have to do less on them, so what? You got to choose what to do (irl and in game), and I prefer to do things I like more. Odd, I thought this was a game we were playing and not a job.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumani Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Odd, I thought this was a game we were playing and not a job.... What I ment, is that it pretty much ALLWAYS SEEMS that grass is greener on the otherside of the fence, and who knows maybe it is. The thing is, that you need to either Hop on to the other side, to check it out... Or learn to live with it. At this point when there is not dmg meters of anykind you just cant know. edit: + MANY bosses spawn these circles under random ppl's leg, or everybodys legs. For melee these normaly dont affect at all, instead of whacking boss from behind, mobe a bit and whack him from side, not a single damage lost. But for ranged with CAST -times, these often means interrupting your skill, moving away, start casting again, whics costs many seconds. -B Edited January 31, 2012 by Brumani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiddenpuudji Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Didn't read all the comments yet.. Yah so anyways, Does any AC have a debuff to increase armor pen or add damage for all melee attacks? I remember Rogues had something similar in wow and it made bringing melee more viable. This could help with the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Mechano Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Didn't read all the comments yet.. Yah so anyways, Does any AC have a debuff to increase armor pen or add damage for all melee attacks? I remember Rogues had something similar in wow and it made bringing melee more viable. This could help with the problem. Scoundrels/Operatives have Acid Blade/Fletchette round which gives a -50% armour debuff however I think their ranged counterparts can get something similar (not played Gunslinger/Sniper so can't say for certain). Oh and that's being nerfed for being too OP in PvP, reduced to -30%...joy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowqz Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 sniper get a -20% armor for 45s shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 What I ment, is that it pretty much ALLWAYS SEEMS that grass is greener on the otherside of the fence, and who knows maybe it is. The thing is, that you need to either Hop on to the other side, to check it out... Or learn to live with it. At this point when there is not dmg meters of anykind you just cant know. Kinda like how your post SEEMS to make sense on the surface. edit: + MANY bosses spawn these circles under random ppl's leg, or everybodys legs. For melee these normaly dont affect at all, instead of whacking boss from behind, mobe a bit and whack him from side, not a single damage lost. But for ranged with CAST -times, these often means interrupting your skill, moving away, start casting again, whics costs many seconds. -B Again we're back to "SS or it didn't happen", when we've tried the encounters with all ranged teams vs mixed teams and the all ranged teams always perform better. You don't need a DPS meter to judge how stressful an encounter is with ranged vs. melee teams. The bosses are downed more quickly because DPS is constant, thereby not having to worry about enrage timers, and ranged DPS are out of range of any point blank spells meant solely for melee, reducing the amount of healing they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Didn't read all the comments yet.. Yah so anyways, Does any AC have a debuff to increase armor pen or add damage for all melee attacks? I remember Rogues had something similar in wow and it made bringing melee more viable. This could help with the problem. Anything is better than nothing at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeArcher Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I have 3 level 50 characters. A Sentinel, a gunslinger and a commando. I can tell you that it's far more work for a Sentinel in any hardmode or operation than my other two characters. Additionally, the ranged can dps with far greater ease and with less movement and in the end do significantly more than my superiorly geared Sentinel even can. Melee dps definately got shafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawfishies Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Melee should be harder than range, i mean, your standing next to the boss... Its only natural that it should be dangerous because your right next to a behemoth that will mess you up. If your standing in range than your not up in the action, and DPSing should be easier because you don't have to worry about getting smacked nearly as often. If a Melee DPSer can be competitive in damage with the ranged DPSers than it is a sign of a skilled MMO'er, plain and simple. They do exist out there, but there not as common as the Merc/Commando or Sorcerer/Sages facerolling to top damage by standing still with simple rotations. If you find yourself dying too often as a melee than you need to not stand in fire, stop attacking random targets, and learn to move and DPS simultaneously and efficiently. Melee DPS is simply more of a challenge than ranged DPS, if you can't handle it, than I suggest you re-roll. Oh dear Gawd, This is an MMO man come on. why don't you say it's only natural that a lightsaber should cut anyone in half in one shot then? And block any blaster bolt incoming, or just simply force choke anything to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Oh dear Gawd, This is an MMO man come on. why don't you say it's only natural that a lightsaber should cut anyone in half in one shot then? And block any blaster bolt incoming, or just simply force choke anything to death. ^^ QFT. Maybe we should actually permanently die when we're "defeated" too and have to roll new characters. Wouldn't that make RP sense? Derp derp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FobManX Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The problem is there are almost no melee-friendly mechanics that can't also be ranged-friendly mechanics by simply making the range go into melee-range. And the mechanics that do exist are overplayed like crazy (need X number of people to stand X meters away from the boss, bla bla). Exactly. The only solution I can think of is to add a minimum range on all range DPS, and then introduce said range unfriendly mechanics to force them to deal with it. But as it stands, the very nature of MMOs will guarantee that melee always have it tougher then ranged. The only other way to solve this is to flat out increase melee survivability and/or damage output since melee doesn't have 100% uptime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dindrane Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I think the game is tuning right for melees. I have great fun in hm flashpoints and ops with my DD Jugg. No fight feels too hard or even unfair to me as a melee. BUT what I really want to state that my friends who play ranged and healer are completely bored by the content, their rotations are okay - not overly stressing but okay, but the encounters just dont ask for anything they literally dont ever have to move or do ANYTHING. This isnt about fairness here its about entertainment - give healers and ranged more satisfying encounters please they might just quit the game cause they are too bored ._. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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