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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?


Dovahbrah

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Agree pretty much.

 

When I ran in arsenal/gunnery, the only thing I -ever- did that made me feel useful was a few off heals on our healer. Tech Override+Medical Probe, and then maybe an AMP. I was running a 10/31/0 spec or something like that just for better off heals. I didn't have to worry about heat/ammo cause I was always dead about 10-20 seconds into off healing/dpsing.

 

Switching to Pyro/Assault was better, but it still pales in comparison to my other DPS toons (Sniper, Sin, Pre-50 OP, Dps Sage, Maurader). Not to mention... Assault just feels wrong on a commando. Big-*** cannon so I can... run around and throw grenades? Sure, I do alright and certianly play well enough to be an asset to a team, but on any of my other classes I'm more useful and much more capable.

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So you wish they didn't do anything in 1.4 so you could complain about leaving you guys alone?

 

They did throw you guys a bone in 1.4! It doesn't seem like it is enough, but I'd rather them take the iterative approach of small balance changes, rather than swing the pendulum of which classes are OP from patch to patch.

 

Hopefully, BW gives you guys *small* buffs in 1.6.

 

They showed us a bone with the interrupt (a bone we should have had since launch) and then beat us over the head with it. You're crazy if you think the nerfs to sweltering heat and the knockback on stockstrike (not to mention the nerf to cryo grenade) did anything but hurt an already dysfunctional class in PVP.

 

Like I said, them doing nothing would have shown us being ignored. What they did showed they have a fundamental lack of understanding of the basic class and how it works in a PVP environment.

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Having played both Merc and Commando in PvP fairly regularly I can agree fully with what has been said.

On commando what good is a knockback when melee opponents just leap straight back at you? especially since now favorite of the month rage specs are getting two leaps now with Obliterate. This effectively leaves us with a 4 second single target stun and an interupt. Slows aren't really much help since pretty much anything thats going to let you live long enough is a channelled ability anyway.

 

My solution would be first of all make the stun grenade a longer distance, so at least after throwing melee's back you can stun one to stop him just launching back at you. There also needs to be one other form of stun/knockback somewhere commando specific but looking at the commando specific powers I am unable to see any other power it could attach to, so possibly decrease the cooldown on concussion charge.

 

In terms of Merc I haven't played one in a while now since I gave up trying to make it viable so no solutions here.

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U-T-I-L-I-T-Y

 

We don't have any. We have nothing to offer a pvp group, and so you can't even find a group to be in anymore.

 

FIX !!!!!!

 

knockback(good for peeling, especially with leapers), high ranged dps, ability to take off dots, cc's... Not sure if serious.

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Having played both Merc and Commando in PvP fairly regularly I can agree fully with what has been said.

On commando what good is a knockback when melee opponents just leap straight back at you? especially since now favorite of the month rage specs are getting two leaps now with Obliterate. This effectively leaves us with a 4 second single target stun and an interupt. Slows aren't really much help since pretty much anything thats going to let you live long enough is a channelled ability anyway.

 

My solution would be first of all make the stun grenade a longer distance, so at least after throwing melee's back you can stun one to stop him just launching back at you. There also needs to be one other form of stun/knockback somewhere commando specific but looking at the commando specific powers I am unable to see any other power it could attach to, so possibly decrease the cooldown on concussion charge.

 

In terms of Merc I haven't played one in a while now since I gave up trying to make it viable so no solutions here.

 

Or you can get in a group with players with multiple knockbacks, position yourself to where you won't be leaped to easily... These are called strategies, they are something you want to incorporate into your playing style. They should be something that puts you in a better position(pardon the pun) to be successful.

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Or you can get in a group with players with multiple knockbacks, position yourself to where you won't be leaped to easily... These are called strategies, they are something you want to incorporate into your playing style. They should be something that puts you in a better position(pardon the pun) to be successful.

 

And what strategies do LOLSMASHERS need to employ to be effective hmm? If Mercenaries need to have help in order to be effective then they are seriously underpowered.

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knockback(good for peeling, especially with leapers), high ranged dps, ability to take off dots, cc's... Not sure if serious.

 

Where to even start.

 

1 knockback, okay. Too bad it's not that helpful if you're already snared, plus you'll just get leapt back to in most cases. Rage spec juggs/maras have two leaps. Every class has a way to nullify the knockback.

 

High ranged DPS? Sorry, but that's not utility, I think you're confused. Every class can do high DPS. The difference is, every other class can still do that DPS under pressure unlike mercs/commandos.

 

Ability to take off dots? Only tech unless spec'd for it. Pretty much useless.

 

CC's? You mean a stun, which every other class has, or the mezz, with a cast time and a 1 minute cooldown, that breaks on damage? Or the root, which only one spec has, which only works in melee range?

 

Notsureifserious. Do you even PvP, or are you willfully ignorant as to how easy it is to nullify/shut down Mercs/Commandos? The class offers nothing that the other ones don't, and the other classes can do their jobs better.

Edited by Dovahbrah
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knockback(good for peeling, especially with leapers), high ranged dps, ability to take off dots, cc's... Not sure if serious.

 

Trolling Mara right here!

But seriously, are you one of those pvpers that think they are all that becuase you tear ppl down with your mara/sent that take almost NO skill? LAWL

 

P.S. Yes, ive played as a sent in 50 pvp and i forgot how easy it was to kill with em, but seriously I still pvp with my commando cuz I have no respect for Sent/Maras (except the ones that really HAVE skill)

Edited by Essence_of_Light
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Where to even start.

 

1 knockback, okay. Too bad it's not that helpful if you're already snared, plus you'll just get leapt back to in most cases. Rage spec juggs/maras have two leaps. Every class has a way to nullify the knockback.

 

High ranged DPS? Sorry, but that's not utility, I think you're confused. Every class can do high DPS. The difference is, every other class can still do that DPS under pressure unlike mercs/commandos.

 

Ability to take off dots? Only tech unless spec'd for it. Pretty much useless.

 

CC's? You mean a stun, which every other class has, or the mezz, with a cast time and a 1 minute cooldown, that breaks on damage? Or the root, which only one spec has, which only works in melee range?

 

Notsureifserious. Do you even PvP, or are you willfully ignorant as to how easy it is to nullify/shut down Mercs/Commandos? The class offers nothing that the other ones don't, and the other classes can do their jobs better.

 

he plays a powertech, what'd you expect?

 

compare merc to any other class and you will see a massive disparity as far as utility is concerned

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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

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Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners

 

Hugging corners isn't something that only Mercs/Commandos can do, and in fact a lot of classes do it far better (Sages/Sorcs). A lot of times it is simply better to stand there and take the punishment than to risk allowing your opponents to use LoS against you, or worse, LoS your team's healers.

 

Overall a strange response that can only imply that the developers are keyboard turners if they find DPS Mercs/Commandos hard to catch :D

 

Anyway, good to know it's being looked into. Thanks as usual, Allison.

Edited by Jenzali
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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

 

Dear Austin Peckenpaugh. If you ever actually played the AC in PvP,

(something you clearly have not)

You would know the issue is not just against multiple enemies but a singel "mele" enemy that can shut

down the DPS on this class to easy.ALSO DPS wise gunnery/arsenal is far weaker because of this.

Having a escape is fine but a gunnery commando cant kill enyone with hammershot alone,because a mele/powerteck etc will be on you in a second anyways.

Edited by Lord_Karsk
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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

"Escapes" don't seem to gel with the whole heavy armor bounty hunter/commando lore. I don't want to be stealth. Besides the fact that "escaping" wont help my team accomplish objectives any better even if it does save my life for the time being. Let me also point out that "escaping will hurt dps on an already sub-par class. Look at snipers for guidance (ranged dps class just like us). They have much better defensive abilities that also make them immune to interrupts AND being jumped to by mele.

 

I'm sorry Allison, but Merc/Commando's problem isn't just "when multiple mele attack". We are also the weakest 1v1 class in the game by a long shot. I really think you need to explain to Austin that an escape ability is not bring to bring us back in line. The whole AC needs an overhaul. As many have said before "there is no reason to bring a Mercenary on a ranked PVP team". This is very upsetting considering the time spend grinding 100 valor and gear.

 

Problem#1) All our dps is tied around Tracer Missile/Grav Round which is too susceptible to interrupts. We can be easily shut down by many classes without being able to do the same to any other classes.

 

Problem#2) Survivability. When the Knock-back of Rocket Punch was removed in 1.4 it got even worse than it was before. PLEASE ask Austin to make Rocket-Punch a Knockback WITH a root attached. This would help our survivability SO MUCH. Please also see all the threads in Merc forums about this since 100% of mercenaries agree this is what Rocket-Punch should do.

 

Problem#3) Burst DPS. It's mediocre. This really hurts our survivability as well. Making Heatseeker Missile a little stronger and having it auto-crit when specced into it like so many other DPS abilities would go very far in helping us.

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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Sweet. Nothing short of a relief for this to finally be acknowledged. Although what players are already saying is true, everyone can LOS(Line of sight) and everyone has trouble against multiple enemies, this is fair this is alright but when a player is already crippled and goes into a 1v1 fight incapable or having a preposterously difficult time despite of their skill level and use of 100% of their abilities, then it falls to class problems. When another class has the tools and given the proper skill level can handle multiple enemies or simply just escape multiple enemies while we have the luxury of neither, there is a clear class imbalance. Regardless, very elated to see the response and looking forward to the much needed changes, please for the love of the dwindling Mando/Merc community left, play the class, then play the class some more, in PvP, 1v1s and even ranked, then play it just a little bit more; then and only then will you understand how incredibly dysfunctional, frustrating and awkward of a time we have.

 

Kudos and best of wishes, looking forward to the changes. If done right, you'll get another 6 month sub from me and perhaps others, if done wrong you'll see the extinction of Mandos/Mercs and more than likely lose their subs as well.

Edited by LeonHawkeye
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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Well, at least they did notice this problem. But he's overestimating how effective corner hugging is. If a single enemy applies a snare or root, corner hugging does bupkiss for a merc.

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"Escapes" don't seem to gel with the whole heavy armor bounty hunter/commando lore. I don't want to be stealth. Besides the fact that "escaping" wont help my team accomplish objectives any better even if it does save my life for the time being. Let me also point out that "escaping will hurt dps on an already sub-par class. Look at snipers for guidance (ranged dps class just like us). They have much better defensive abilities that also make them immune to interrupts AND being jumped to by mele.

 

I'm sorry Allison, but Merc/Commando's problem isn't just "when multiple mele attack". We are also the weakest 1v1 class in the game by a long shot. I really think you need to explain to Austin that an escape ability is not bring to bring us back in line. The whole AC needs an overhaul. As many have said before "there is no reason to bring a Mercenary on a ranked PVP team". This is very upsetting considering the time spend grinding 100 valor and gear.

 

Problem#1) All our dps is tied around Tracer Missile/Grav Round which is too susceptible to interrupts. We can be easily shut down by many classes without being able to do the same to any other classes.

 

Problem#3) Burst DPS. It's mediocre. This really hurts our survivability as well. Making Heatseeker Missile a little stronger and having it auto-crit when specced into it like so many other DPS abilities would go very far in helping us.

 

While I'm not entirely enthusiastic about the developer response here, posts like this are why they don't frequent the pvp forum. Merc DPS, while alive, is great. Lamenting a pve spec's performance in pvp is weird. Making mercs inexplicably immune to leap screws up 10 seperate ACs. And adding burst to a pve spec's damage will make them over-effective in operations.

Edited by Larry_Dallas
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While I'm not entirely enthusiastic about the developer response here, posts like this are why they don't frequent the pvp forum. Merc DPS, while alive, is great. Lamenting a pve spec's performance in pvp is weird. Making mercs inexplicably immune to leap screws up 10 seperate ACs. And adding burst to a pve spec's damage will make them over-effective in operations.

 

What you're basically saying is "don't play Gunnery/Arsenal in PvP". Which is stupid. Every spec should have something to offer in PvP as the tree's description says "Damage", not "PvE". Watchman is probably the best DPS spec in PvE - it's also very, very effective in PvP. Certainly a lot more so than Gunnery. Snipers/Gunslingers also have three perfectly viable trees. Rage/Focus got buffed to make it better in PvE so now it's equally good in PvE and PvP as well.

 

I agree, however, that Gunnery/Arsenal doesn't need extra burst or leap immunity. A brief immunity to interrupts, for example, wouldn't affect PvE at all, neither would more escape abilities (which fit perfectly with the lore, btw: a Mercenary fights for money but his own life is more important than that; a Commando is an elite soldier who must be able to evaluate the situtation and know when to retreat).

Edited by Siorac
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Dear Austin Peckenpaugh. If you ever actually played the AC in PvP,

(something you clearly have not)

You would know the issue is not just against multiple enemies but a singel "mele" enemy that can shut

down the DPS on this class to easy.ALSO DPS wise gunnery/arsenal is far weaker because of this.

Having a escape is fine but a gunnery commando cant kill enyone with hammershot alone,because a mele/powerteck etc will be on you in a second anyways.

 

Dear Karsk,

 

If you have ever worked for Bioware developing PVP content and making adjustments to classes and game mechanics, (something you clearly have not), you would know that Bioware is obviously aware of the issue and is working on addressing it.

 

The real problem is that Gunnery/Arsenal is a stationary turret spec that needs to be totally revamped for mobility. A viable solution would make Tracer Missle and Grav Round non-channeled and do less damage, but a bigger burst buff to Railshot and their endcap ability. That way they get more burst and keep the same overall damage, while becoming mobile.

 

The idea is to make these guys mobile instead of stationary. 4m/10m players still have to work on sticking like glue while Gunnery/Arsenal becomes a run'n'gun style of Pyro, without the dots.

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What you're basically saying is "don't play Gunnery/Arsenal in PvP". Which is stupid. Every spec should have something to offer in PvP as the tree's description says "Damage", not "PvE". Watchman is probably the best DPS spec in PvE - it's also very, very effective in PvP. Certainly a lot more so than Gunnery. Snipers/Gunslingers also have three perfectly viable trees. Rage/Focus got buffed to make it better in PvE so now it's equally good in PvE and PvP as well.

 

I agree, however, that Gunnery/Arsenal doesn't need extra burst or leap immunity. A brief immunity to interrupts, for example, wouldn't affect PvE at all, neither would more escape abilities (which fit perfectly with the lore, btw: a Mercenary fights for money but his own life is more important than that; a Commando is an elite soldier who must be able to evaluate the situtation and know when to retreat).

 

Rage is out of balance and hopefully not the barometer by which other classes' effectiveness should be judged, and engineering is terrible period.

 

Apart from marauders, just about every class has a spec that isn't effective in pvp. For sorc, it's lightning. For assassins, I'd argue madness is pretty weak. Tactics Van is immoble and would require a server client synch that's just not present to be effective in pvp, so everybody goes pyro. Vigilance wasn't great to begin with and just got nerfed. Lethality ops are far inferior to their sniper cousins. And engineering snipers offer little in either pvp or pve.

 

Arsenal mercs are more ineffective than some of these (madness assassin/lethality ops/ vig knights). But all these ACs suck in pvp to an extent compared to other ACs of the same class. That arsenal's 1% worse to take into a warzone than a lightning sorc is far less of an issue than that the spec that is "good" in pvp is the worst such dps spec of any AC by a mile.

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I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues....We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

It took them a year to address the glaring problem with Merc/Commando, but I guess better late than never? I'm not encouraged when I read "plans for the future", which means changes will be coming Soon.

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It took them a year to address the glaring problem with Merc/Commando, but I guess better late than never? I'm not encouraged when I read "plans for the future", which means changes will be coming Soon.

 

I will imagine with the new warzone coming out in 1.6 that you will see more class changes and balance. I never play my bh as I leveled him just to get the class buff so I could care one way or the other I just don't want to see hordes of tracer missile spammers ever again.

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Escape issues? so what are merc arsenals supposed to run away the whole game? This is goona sound like i'm stroking my own ego but her eit is . I belive i'ma good Merc Arsenal , damage in wz's ranges from 300 to 500k most matches with that said if i pull 500k I guarantee you theres other AC's that pull upwards of 600 to 800k on to a mill ...why is that?

1. Aoe that can hit multiple targets for 6 to 8k is def one,(which you guys nerfed tarcer for this very thing on single targets and gave it to another class as an AOE?)

2.Mobility of the class is a huge issue. We can be interupted very easily.(esp Tracer which arsenal is based around)

3.The other is survivability albeit it may be an escape issue as you so put but IMO its the survivabilty of the class, hugging corners wont get you outta roots/stuns/pulls for a heavy armor class we should have more survability not the ability to run away.

But I guess I'll just have to see what you guys have planned.

Good to know you are at least looking into this but for cryn out loud we dont nerfed again so I can hug corners better.

Edited by Philastra
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Glad to see the commando/merc PvP issue has been acknowledged. I'm looking forward to the changes. The commando AC is still my favorite despite its underdog status in PvP. I enjoy playing it (which is why I have 2 commandos, and will be starting my first merc soon in order to experience the BH storyline). I learned a lot about the AC from reading these threads, and ppl contributed some great ideas imo (and some great counter-arguments too). Kudos all around for helping to get this issue on the radar. Stay positive.
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Rage is out of balance and hopefully not the barometer by which other classes' effectiveness should be judged

 

You know who I'll need to hear that from before I believe it? Bioware. Right now Rage IS the defacto standard for DPS in PvP.

 

Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Heh. There's a 60+ page thread on this very forum pertaining to the problems with mercs and commandos (as well as multiple threads on both AC forums). I suggest Austin have a lackey read it for him, if he's unwilling to himself.

 

'Escape issues'. Hah. 'When used correctly to hug corners'. Hah. 'Plans for the future'. Hahah. We're pretty much the official target-dummies of SWTOR at this point, aren't we.

 

Whelp, thanks for posting.

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While I'm not entirely enthusiastic about the developer response here, posts like this are why they don't frequent the pvp forum. Merc DPS, while alive, is great. Lamenting a pve spec's performance in pvp is weird. Making mercs inexplicably immune to leap screws up 10 seperate ACs. And adding burst to a pve spec's damage will make them over-effective in operations.

 

What you're basically saying is "don't play Gunnery/Arsenal in PvP". Which is stupid. Every spec should have something to offer in PvP as the tree's description says "Damage", not "PvE". Watchman is probably the best DPS spec in PvE - it's also very, very effective in PvP. Certainly a lot more so than Gunnery. Snipers/Gunslingers also have three perfectly viable trees. Rage/Focus got buffed to make it better in PvE so now it's equally good in PvE and PvP as well.

 

I agree, however, that Gunnery/Arsenal doesn't need extra burst or leap immunity. A brief immunity to interrupts, for example, wouldn't affect PvE at all, neither would more escape abilities (which fit perfectly with the lore, btw: a Mercenary fights for money but his own life is more important than that; a Commando is an elite soldier who must be able to evaluate the situtation and know when to retreat).

 

What on earth is wrong with you guys? Do you even play PVP? How can you say it would screw over 10 other classes if we were immune to interrupts? Hello snipers? Have you ever heard of the mechanic called cover? How about Entrench? Are you completely ignorant to any other class but your own?

 

I hate to break it to you but our burst dps is NOT good. It's pretty bad actually. And I'm 95 valor and have been BIS for months so I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about. Assasin, MArauder, PT, Operative - every single one has significantly better burst dps, and if you don't think burst dps is important in a PVP environment you just are not a very good PVPer at all.

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