I am saying you are confused and have a large ego that you should check, because you are incorrect.

So you are running out of arguments and resort to personal stuff like mentioning my ego? Good.

You say lethality is useless for ranked pvp, and I provide proof that some of the best teams do in fact use them, and heavily. If you seriously think that marksman is a better tank killer than lethality, I'm just going to laugh at your incompetence and complete lack of knowledge in how pvp tanking actually works. Here's a hint- unlike in unranked, Ranked Tanks actually use tank gear with tank stats.

You have dellusions if you interpreted my sentences above as MM > Tanks. Don't try to twist my words in a way favorable to your argumenting.

If you want to cheerlead marksman, go right ahead. As stated, I like the spec and know it has many pros. However, so does lethality. I have already refuted your argument, and now you're simply complaining.

I am impartial over sniper specs, but i am certainly not in the favor of people spreading missinformation about lethality in RWZ, especially about how useful it is in relation to

1. Other sniper specs

2. Other classes in the team that can fulfill the same role you are trying to make lethality viable for

Here's a little something that maybe you didn't know- when an operative uses evasion to cleanse dots? Yeah, that only counts as one round of dots, and the second pops right up. The second pop is what puts you (and the sniper) in combat again so you have to wait out the timer. Not the main perk of the spec of course (that would be high internal damage) but very useful.

Again you don't understand it. Force shroud, assuming it's not bugged and actually works the way it is intended by the developers, removes everything, lethality DoTs don't reapply even with lethality lingering toxins talents. The operative 1vs1 (no other DoTs applied from somebody else) will have evasion and cleanse available. In case of lethality DoTs he only needs to do both of them to come out clean and cloak safely. Even if he has multiple debuffs on him, evasion will remove them all, and since you are the only one with reapplyeble dots, he only has to cleanse your weakened poisons.

So, to sum up- You say Lethality in Ranked Warzones is useless. I disagree in a cordial manner and show you some of the better teams using lethality snipers to great effect. You come back very disrespectfully and respond with basically "Nuh Uh. Those teams probably aren't even good!" So, as you can see, your argument is weak and holds no merit.

There is nothing to sum up here. Even if the best team in the world used a lethality sniper you are implying that they found an actual niche where lethality would peform better than the other 2 specs, with no other classes being able to fulfill that role. Again, CARNAGE, PYROTECH. If the best player in the world has a sufficient margin for dominance with a weaker spec while still having access to a more powerful one, that doesn't make the weaker spec more "viable" as you are trying it to sound.

Again, i hope it will get to you, using analogies, so you can understand better: If some uber leet team will be using Advanced Prototype instead of Pyrotech in RWZ, does that make Advanced Prototype better than Pyrotech?

Good night. May be i will have mood to reply to your rants in the morning. May be not.

PS: Do you want one sick joke? I bet my money, if there ever was a way to identify the best of the best RWZ teams in SWTOR, i am not 100% sure that it will even have a sniper among it.

Again you don't understand it. Force shroud, assuming it's not bugged and actually works the way it is intended by the developers, removes everything, lethality DoTs don't reapply even with lethality lingering toxins talents.

Actually, it reapplies through Shroud (I've tested it). They'll just resist the damage from the lingering toxins for the duration of their Shroud but they will be pulled out of stealth on the next tick.

Actually, it reapplies through Shroud (I've tested it). They'll just resist the damage from the lingering toxins for the duration of their Shroud but they will be pulled out of stealth on the next tick.

sins say that it is bugged since 1.4 allowing for stuns to pass through and even take damage sometimes.

sins say that it is bugged since 1.4 allowing for stuns to pass through and even take damage sometimes.

that actually has nothing to do with the bug. shroud when its first applied works as a cleanse and then everything afterwards just gets resisted. so if the leth sniper has reoccurring dots his dots reapply through shroud, so you get rid of the first version and just apply the 2nd when you shroud.

A Lethality Sniper/operative will put by far more pressure on the enemy healers than any other classon the game.

A good Lethality Sniper will have dots on 4-7 targets, and corrossive granade constantly on 3-4 targets. Making it incredibly easy to target switch and just cull.

Optimized and with critluck 1 cull + a few dot ticks in between will take a target down from 80% hp to 20%hp.

Even when you stopped the focus on the called target and it is healed back up to 100% dots will still remain and make it a viable target again in 10-15secs.

There is nothing that puts so much pressure on the healers like 7 players in the main that just eat 300-400dps through dots. Every 3-6 seconds you have someone dropping below 70% hp through dots and getting intantely focusfired afterwards.

Howdy ho fellow noobos. Debate no more, CAAAAAAAAAAPTAAAAAAAAAAAIN OOOOOOOOOOOOBVIOOOOOOOOUS is here.

TBH. Both specs are proper, depending on the RWZ (voidstar/huttball/denova/CW/Hyperage).

Lethality/Dirty Fighting is good for sustain damage because one of the dots is AOE. Healers wanna waste a GCD on a cleanse ONE PERSON in a RWZ? Go for it . Lets see'em keep up EVERYONE'S HP. The sniper/slinger will just redot or the team switches targets.

Sab/Engi is good for Voidstar and Huttball. The AoE is awesome for voidstar def. The AoE slow and 30meter range is awesome for Huttball.

MM/SS isn't too bad either. The 60% less damage for 20 seconds every 45 seconds is awesome against smash-monkeys in Voidstar. Just that Sab/Engi>MM/SS in THE TYPICAL Voidstar cuz of them AoE. It is not uncommon to see RWZ Voidstars come down to kills. In this case, MM/SS aint such a bad idea cuz u r so tanky against SMASH/Force Sweep and do way more sustain burst than Sab/Engi (the cooldowns for Sab/Engi are loooooooong).

TLDR: go read if u wanna get good kid.

/THREAD

No need to thank me ladies and noobos. And remember... stay kool, be OOOOOOOOOOOOOBVIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUS.

i think that everyone assumes that lethality is useless in RWZ b/c people are under the assumption that good healers will be clearing debuffs/dots

 

9 times out of 10, that is not the case. i suspect mostly b/c it is impossible to tell what debuffs are on your group members from the Ops Frame. but either way, it hardly ever happens.

Do you know what you're talking about?

A Lethality Sniper/operative will put by far more pressure on the enemy healers than any other classon the game.

 

A good Lethality Sniper will have dots on 4-7 targets, and corrossive granade constantly on 3-4 targets. Making it incredibly easy to target switch and just cull.

 

Optimized and with critluck 1 cull + a few dot ticks in between will take a target down from 80% hp to 20%hp.

 

Even when you stopped the focus on the called target and it is healed back up to 100% dots will still remain and make it a viable target again in 10-15secs.

 

There is nothing that puts so much pressure on the healers like 7 players in the main that just eat 300-400dps through dots. Every 3-6 seconds you have someone dropping below 70% hp through dots and getting intantely focusfired afterwards.

Whilst this is all true, for it to work the sniper needs to be virtually untouched by the enemy team for a good 30 sec. Agianst a team of similar strength this will never be the case. I agree that a lethality sniper who can pull above mentioned off in all situations have nothing to gain from switching spec.

Like Notomorrow I do question the quality of opposing teams who allow this to happen

Whilst this is all true, for it to work the sniper needs to be virtually untouched by the enemy team for a good 30 sec. Agianst a team of similar strength this will never be the case. I agree that a lethality sniper who can pull above mentioned off in all situations have nothing to gain from switching spec.

Like Notomorrow I do question the quality of opposing teams who allow this to happen

Positioning!

You cant charge and you cant pull him aslong as he is in cover and he has no reason what so ever to leave cover

because he gains no benefit and has no dampers to refresh.

You cant effectively LOS because the dots are still ticking.

Sitting behind natural cover will give you pretty decent chance the reflect any incoming railshot/HIB.

Hunker Down + Shield Probe + Dodge + Ballistic Shield + Warzone Adrenal + 360° aoe knockback, that will knock Carnage , Rage, Powertech out of their effective dmg range.

( + Guard + Heal + good amount of ranged deflection) ...... good luck focusing him down when he is sitting behind the enemies Backline ... and you cant charge nor pull him. I love the people that overextend to even get close to me.

In fact, its easier to keep up a lethality sniper/slinger siiting in save distance than a PT constantly trying to hug the enemy team.

I'll say this: Dirty Fighting provides the most damage out of 3 specs, both in overall damage and in single-target damage. So if your team is stocked up on DPS through the roof, then you can afford playing area denial in Sab spec. However, if you're top DPS of your team as DF (as happens quite often), then most likely the team cannot afford you switching into lower DPS, but higher utility spec.

And yes, in huttball DF is useless (although I believe that gunslinger is useless in Huttball anyway).

I'll say this: Dirty Fighting provides the most damage out of 3 specs, both in overall damage and in single-target damage. So if your team is stocked up on DPS through the roof, then you can afford playing area denial in Sab spec. However, if you're top DPS of your team as DF (as happens quite often), then most likely the team cannot afford you switching into lower DPS, but higher utility spec.

 

And yes, in huttball DF is useless (although I believe that gunslinger is useless in Huttball anyway).

The team controlling mid the majority of the game will win, thats a fact.

Slingers/Snipers sitting mid and gunning up everything that gets even close is rediculously strong.

Entrenching next to ball spawn will get your team the ball, despite the other team throwing stun grenades and trying to knock you away.

Tank Busting dmg.

30m aoe mezz to take out healers

5sec 35m root

35m Heal/Armor debuff

etc.

i think that everyone assumes that lethality is useless in RWZ b/c people are under the assumption that good healers will be clearing debuffs/dots

 

9 times out of 10, that is not the case. i suspect mostly b/c it is impossible to tell what debuffs are on your group members from the Ops Frame. but either way, it hardly ever happens.

if you are doing ranked against a good team their healers will be cleansing everything! ....some healers where cleansing legshot off the other night! amazing.

Even with all that cleansing of your DoTs the part that makes df/leathality bad for RWZ is that your one big burst (wounding shots / cull ) is super obvious as it has quite a long build up, apply 2 (or 3 if your are hybrid) DoTs, then a long cast on wounding shots that puts a giant indicator on your target so that they know to LOS you or knockback/stun/interrupt.

Sab/eng is great for crowd control, offers decent burst, and the best survivability. MM/SS offers the highest burst but a bit less cc and defense.

i just read that gunslingers are useless in hutball

and that DF is the way to go in Rateds

i just read that gunslingers are useless in hutball

and that DF is the way to go in Rateds

yes these forums have taught me so much. If you study them carefully you can go from doing smart things to completely the opposite in no time

Positioning!

You cant charge and you cant pull him aslong as he is in cover and he has no reason what so ever to leave cover

because he gains no benefit and has no dampers to refresh.

Same is valid for the other 2 specs. It doesn't make lethality anything more special.

You cant effectively LOS because the dots are still ticking.

you cannot kill stuff with DoTs alone. You need Cull. This is not some 1vs1 unranked where you can hope to whitle somebody down with DoTs where teams don't have aware healers. Your DoTs will end up overinflating your total damage, being simply negated by kolto probes and bubbles.

Sitting behind natural cover will give you pretty decent chance the reflect any incoming railshot/HIB.

Unrealiable and bugged. I've seen it too often refusing to roll into natural cover to rely on it. Many natural covers have weird placements which go against the principle of right positioning, other maps lack it almost entirely. (voidstar)

Hunker Down + Shield Probe + Dodge + Ballistic Shield + Warzone Adrenal + 360° aoe knockback, that will knock Carnage , Rage, Powertech out of their effective dmg range.

You just listed the abilities that the other specs have as well, it doesn't make lethality anything special on top of them. However both MM and Engineering have extra persks that makes them much better at survival.

( + Guard + Heal + good amount of ranged deflection) ...... good luck focusing him down when he is sitting behind the enemies Backline ... and you cant charge nor pull him. I love the people that overextend to even get close to me.

 

In fact, its easier to keep up a lethality sniper/slinger siiting in save distance than a PT constantly trying to hug the enemy team.

There is no need to overextend. Diversion and grapple into the enemy lines.

I'll say this: Dirty Fighting provides the most damage out of 3 specs, both in overall damage and in single-target damage. So if your team is stocked up on DPS through the roof, then you can afford playing area denial in Sab spec. However, if you're top DPS of your team as DF (as happens quite often), then most likely the team cannot afford you switching into lower DPS, but higher utility spec.

 

And yes, in huttball DF is useless (although I believe that gunslinger is useless in Huttball anyway).

Again you are talking about overinflated damage numbers without mentioning the very nature of that damage. MM will do on average 200k less damage than lethality. Does that mean that mean that MM is bad? No. We are talking at single target damage focused on invididual targets which basically requires direct attention from healers, not just some passive healing through HoTS, how a good chunk of lethality can be mitigated.

30m aoe mezz to take out healers

5sec 35m root

35m Heal/Armor debuff

etc.

Again you are listing the abilities that other specs can just as well use them. The difference being, lethality has to deal with inability to flashbang any doted target, at least until the next expansion which will alllow you to flashbang a DoTed target.

Arguing for Lethality being useful in RWZ is like arguing for Annihilation and Sorc Madness being useful in RWZ as well. Both can sometimes perform well if being carried by the team and playing against weaker opponents. If you are given the conditions that you can perform well with lethality in the said environments, then the you are already in position to do so with MM or Engineering. No matter how you try to twist it, "more damage", "tank busting" - which can already be covered by carnage and pyrotech, DoT spamming which can be negated by HoT spamming will not make lethality look better.

I repeat again: If you are performing well with lethality, then you are given an easy enough time to be able to perfoem just as well with MM and Engineering. However, the reverse is not always the truth. Replace an MM/Eng sniper with a leth in a decent team, and see how they will perform against the same opponents.

as I recently rediscovered my Sniper and was wondering what to run for pvp (reg WZ, not ranked, but want to play what I would in Ranked), thanks for every one who made an input here, gave me a lot of thought.

Cheers.

Same is valid for the other 2 specs. It doesn't make lethality anything more special.

 

 

you cannot kill stuff with DoTs alone. You need Cull. This is not some 1vs1 unranked where you can hope to whitle somebody down with DoTs where teams don't have aware healers. Your DoTs will end up overinflating your total damage, being simply negated by kolto probes and bubbles.

You still do dmg with dots, no matter if LOSed or stunned. Please show me the Healer that has constantly 2x Hots on 7 players...pls i begg you!! Im reaching between 900-1300dps in RBG. This is the hps of 1 Healer pretty much left unchecked.

 

Unrealiable and bugged. I've seen it too often refusing to roll into natural cover to rely on it. Many natural covers have weird placements which go against the principle of right positioning, other maps lack it almost entirely. (voidstar)

But it still works 90% of the time

 

You just listed the abilities that the other specs have as well, it doesn't make lethality anything special on top of them. However both MM and Engineering have extra persks that makes them much better at survival.

It doesnt make Lethality anything special, but neither worse than the other 2 specs.

 

There is no need to overextend. Diversion and grapple into the enemy lines.

And instantely pulled back by sage/sorc. I love theory crafting!

Again you are talking about overinflated damage numbers without mentioning the very nature of that damage. MM will do on average 200k less damage than lethality. Does that mean that mean that MM is bad? No. We are talking at single target damage focused on invididual targets which basically requires direct attention from healers, not just some passive healing through HoTS, how a good chunk of lethality can be mitigated.

The chain is simple: You focus a target ---> target gets guard---> MM dmg gets incredibly reduced---> you get probably even taunted when channeling Aimed Shot

while this affects also Lethality... Dots still remain on 5+ targets... and whle the healers are buys keeping the focus target up... my dots drop 4-5 guys below 70% hp

Again you are listing the abilities that other specs can just as well use them. The difference being, lethality has to deal with inability to flashbang any doted target, at least until the next expansion which will alllow you to flashbang a DoTed target.

I use flashbang mostly on Healers. Thats the most nasty thing you can ever do. 1 Healer cant keep up the dmg 1 Lethality does. Suddenly the entire team starts to wipe.

Arguing for Lethality being useful in RWZ is like arguing for Annihilation and Sorc Madness being useful in RWZ as well. Both can sometimes perform well if being carried by the team and playing against weaker opponents. If you are given the conditions that you can perform well with lethality in the said environments, then the you are already in position to do so with MM or Engineering. No matter how you try to twist it, "more damage", "tank busting" - which can already be covered by carnage and pyrotech, DoT spamming which can be negated by HoT spamming will not make lethality look better.

I repeat again: If you are performing well with lethality, then you are given an easy enough time to be able to perfoem just as well with MM and Engineering. However, the reverse is not always the truth. Replace an MM/Eng sniper with a leth in a decent team, and see how they will perform against the same opponents.

Engineering is also overinflated dmg btw. Week shock charge dot without dispell protection. Thermal Grenade spam, and your Probe, everyone will simply walk out as soon as you drop it same for Orbital strike.

You are just a hater

Synergy of the Bastion uses a lethality sniper in their ranked warzones.

 

They're pretty good, from what I gather. Twitch vid from the other team- http://www.twitch.tv/jaryxnightmare/b/367877410 Actually, the Strictly Business team uses a lethality sniper as well.

 

So, whatever Captain Random.

Whoa, really Captain Random, burrrrrrrrrrrn.

Also, nah, cheers, lethality is bad.

The chain is simple: You focus a target ---> target gets guard---> MM dmg gets incredibly reduced---> you get probably even taunted when channeling Aimed Shot

I am focusing a target my team is focusing, i am not shooting randomly or spaming DoTs. I am an important DPS burst component capable to switch to any target within my LoS at whim without any need to do any set-up. You however join a fight and and waste and plethora of GCD just to spam distribute your DoTs, while i am already helping my team to beat the crap out of designated target. The very same taunt will affect your DoT damage on everyone you have your dots placed.

Ask any RWZ healer, he will tell you that he prefers DPS to be diluted evenly distributed over his team mates, something what you are trying to achieve with lethality. And you are trying to say that this is a good thing. Did you ever play an op healer?

Don't try to BS people here how your DoTs will threaten a bubbled target with kolto probe HoTs on them, and even recuperative nanotech HoTs when it is available. The healer doesn't have to put himself at risk with activating a big burst heal, risk being interrupted, he just uses an instacast to make your DoTs useless. He doesn't need to worry about cleansing his team mates if he has better things to do.

while this affects also Lethality... Dots still remain on 5+ targets... and whle the healers are buys keeping the focus target up... my dots drop 4-5 guys below 70% hp

Your DoTs alone will not bring below 70% down anybody. In fact you are doing a service to enemy team, by refreshing the cloak of pain on marauders, keeping those 5 targets impossible to mezz. Anytime you will try to capture an objective, you will be a hinderance to your team.

I use flashbang mostly on Healers. Thats the most nasty thing you can ever do. 1 Healer cant keep up the dmg 1 Lethality does. Suddenly the entire team starts to wipe.

in which case you will be forced to never ever drop a corrosive grenade in the vicinity of a healer. And if the operative is not caught by the CC, he can cleanse your flashbang easily from his team mates.

The entire team will not whipe, what will whipe however is your faulty logic.

Engineering is also overinflated dmg btw. Week shock charge dot without dispell protection. Thermal Grenade spam, and your Probe, everyone will simply walk out as soon as you drop it same for Orbital strike.

Engineering does actually offer tools focused on mission objectives and area denial. MM offers instant burst on demand with rapid switching. Neither of these can lethality provide. MM underperformance against tanks is easily covered by the existance of DPS specs that can ignore almost the entire tank armor: Pyrotech, Carnage.

You are just lucky that your BS claims are related to lethality, if you tried to say the same crap about Annihilation or Madness you would've long since been overwhelmed in dozens of posts by the many more warrior and inquisitor players.

A Lethality Sniper/operative will put by far more pressure on the enemy healers than any other classon the game.

Better than ambush->follow through->snipe? Better than smash? I think not.

A good Lethality Sniper will have dots on 4-7 targets, and corrossive granade constantly on 3-4 targets. Making it incredibly easy to target switch and just cull.

So that's 4-7 targets no one can CC.

Optimized and with critluck 1 cull + a few dot ticks in between will take a target down from 80% hp to 20%hp.

That's hardly unique to lethality.

Even when you stopped the focus on the called target and it is healed back up to 100% dots will still remain and make it a viable target again in 10-15secs.

 

There is nothing that puts so much pressure on the healers like 7 players in the main that just eat 300-400dps through dots. Every 3-6 seconds you have someone dropping below 70% hp through dots and getting intantely focusfired afterwards.

How much time would it take to set up 7 players all with your dots? Just applying corrosive darts would take 1.5x7=10.5 seconds, not to mention the energy cost.

How much time would it take to set up 7 players all with your dots? Just applying corrosive darts would take 1.5x7=10.5 seconds, not to mention the energy cost.

this is basically what he tries to imply, start a battle, be completely useless to your team for like 7 GcD, spamming arround your corrosive dar and throwing corrosive grenade, while the other 3 DPS actually try do some burst damage..

One thing I don't see mentioned, engineering has the only 30 meter stun in the game, and on a 18 second cooldown.

lets not get ahead of ourselves, shall we? After all who are we to challenge the authority of those uber leet snipers playing RWZ with lethality? They will tell you that 30m stun or some instant burst on demand from MM is completely useless compared to the ability to spam some more DoTs.