So, one of Bioware's stated aims with the Community Cantina Events, as well as the Class Representative program, was to increase dialogue with its community of players. To that end, and with some collaboration with Psirebal (did I spell that right?), I went to the Community Cantina Event in Seattle, WA to try to engage in some of that dialogue, which seemed to be seriously lacking a week ago.

I had the opportunity to ask Bioware's lead designer, Damion Schubert, about some of the deeply held concerns that last week left me with. Maybe we sorcerers had perception problems too? He prefaced his response and the discussion with the fact that he is a designer, not one of the highly trained statisticians in the trenches doing class balance, so we should all still be on the lookout for further dev interactions here. He definitely wanted to stress they (the statisticians) knew more about what's going on than he did.

That said, here is the question I asked him:

During the recent class Q&A, the original Bioware response chastised a certain class to heal to full, LOS, and make them pay for trying to kill you. Yet the other heal-to-full classes get many tools to LOS/make them pay, without having to spec into them, than we do. Mercs get slow on radial knockback, tech overrides to land an instant mez, and hydraulic overrides baseline. Operatives get instant mez that we can't even spec into anymore; even with polarity shift, ours is hardcasted. We have no reliable ability whatsoever to "make them pay" for wasting a break before full resolve, and it shows. Does Bioware understand that our baseline utility is lackluster at best and that we must spec into what other classes take for granted when considering balance? If not, why not?

The response (and I'm paraphrasing so I probably didn't get everything, my own thoughts, some of which appeared in a back and forth exchange with Damion, are in parenthesis):

- We are paying attention to class balance issues, and we are paying great attention to the metrics data we collect. Our pvp/class balance team -- well, that's their entire job.

- Our response to the sorcerer class questions was more brusque than it needed to be, and we will be more cautious. Lesson learned there.

- Our metrics are telling us that currently sorcerers are actually doing quite well in (8v8) warzones (I could see this, when we have a backline to hide behind and do our job. Arenas won't have a backline, which means that there will definitely need to be adjustments once they go live. This is known and anticipated. Also, why did they not say this in the original sorc questions instead of giving the response they did, as it would have been significantly more respectful than h2f?)

- In response to me bringing up arenas, Damion said the devs are aware that arenas will present further class balance issues that Bioware expects to need to identify and address, but Bioware doesn't have those metrics yet

- Generally Bioware wishes to continue a constructive dialogue and even if they forget to post on Friday afternoon before leaving the class question threads alone for the weekend, they are watching. Bioware PvP devs are always watching the forums, and not just the class rep threads.

All that said, I can honestly say I was a bit surprised to find out that statistically Bioware's metrics tell them that sorcs are filling their roles in warzones quite well. (Then again, maybe I shouldn't be as I've seen what a sorc can do with teamwork and sometimes it's just nasty.) I would also encourage Bioware to officially recognize in yellow text that "according to the data we collect, sorcerers are doing quite well" or some variant thereof would have been much more appropriate than "heal to full and make them pay."

I do not see the issue in what he said,seem's about right imo.

Perhaps I didn't really explain why I went in the first place.

This time last week, we sorcs were healing the forums to full after being told to make them pay for trying to kill us. (Click the link in my sig for more explanation and laughs.) This led us sorcs to have certain perception problems as the answers we received last week certainly did not seem right, and I refer more to the tone of said answers than anything else.

Recognizing I lived close enough to the Community Cantina event to go to it, I talked to Psi for a bit and decided to go, seeking clarification and dialogue as to where Bioware intends to take our class. The OP may be considered a summary of the exchange that took place between myself and the Bioware team, and you're right--there really was no issue that I had with what Bioware's reps told me. I found myself wondering "Why didn't they just post what they told me five minutes ago last week, instead of telling us L2P? It could have gone so much better..."

So now, more or less, I consider that Bioware has had the opportunity for a "do-over" of the sorcerer class questions and I am simply coming back to the community with the result--which to me seems a lot better than they were last Friday! Even if it does boil down to "Presently your class is doing very well in 8v8 but we are aware that 4v4 arenas might not present a back line for you to hide and position behind and we will cross that bridge when we have enough data to reach it."

Sounds like a reasonable response, and like you say would have probably gone over better than telling 2 whole AC's to l2p.

Makes you wonder why they did not just say this in the first place, but miscommunication is one of the risks you take when you open up dialogue.

I liked their "heal to full" answer, basically telling people learn to play, and when you now tell me that they look at their metrics seeing the sorcs do well but the people on the forums are just complaining, makes the learn to play answer just more justified!

We're only doing well because there are seven other people in wzs to help distract/heal/taunt in an exceedingly uncoordinated environment. I and many other sorcs I've played with consistently top our team's charts, if not the entire wz's, but that's a result of knowing the class and the general concept behind cloth classes in every game, using the environment, using our offensive cooldowns and generally hoping your opponents are incompetents.

In other words, we do well, sometimes exceptionally so, if left alone. The issue comes when we are trained by melee who have several roots, slows, stuns and lots of burst. With the exception of healers specced into Fadeout, we have a whopping one cooldown to blow in those situations, and that's up only every 2.5 minutes at best, whereas you look at operatives with Shield Probe, Evasion, stealth at baseline, all of which are on 1 minute or less timers, not to mention how well they get buffed when specced for, and then there's the medium armor.

You see some sorcs doing well because we are, typically, highly intelligent and aware of our surroundings and abilities. What comes with that is an acute awareness of our flaws, too.

Regarding the OP, they really should have said that all they were paying attention to for these answers was the live game, and not the PTS where only a handful of highly skilled players (Mudclot, Thurinlore, Xenobia, etc) are able to make the class work when presented with the godcleave, and even then it's a very uphill battle.

We're only doing well because there are seven other people in wzs to help distract/heal/taunt in an exceedingly uncoordinated environment. I and many other sorcs I've played with consistently top our team's charts, if not the entire wz's, but that's a result of knowing the class and the general concept behind cloth classes in every game, using the environment, using our offensive cooldowns and generally hoping your opponents are incompetents.

 

In other words, we do well, sometimes exceptionally so, if left alone. The issue comes when we are trained by melee who have several roots, slows, stuns and lots of burst. With the exception of healers specced into Fadeout, we have a whopping one cooldown to blow in those situations, and that's up only every 2.5 minutes at best, whereas you look at operatives with Shield Probe, Evasion, stealth at baseline, all of which are on 1 minute or less timers, not to mention how well they get buffed when specced for, and then there's the medium armor.

 

You see some sorcs doing well because we are, typically, highly intelligent and aware of our surroundings and abilities. What comes with that is an acute awareness of our flaws, too.

 

 

Regarding the OP, they really should have said that all they were paying attention to for these answers was the live game, and not the PTS where only a handful of highly skilled players (Mudclot, Thurinlore, Xenobia, etc) are able to make the class work when presented with the godcleave, and even then it's a very uphill battle.

I wanted to reply to this thread, but then I saw your answer and it was my thoughts EXACTLY so no need to repeat what has already been said.

Although I LOVED your

You see some sorcs doing well because we are, typically, highly intelligent and aware of our surroundings and abilities.

and I have to ask... was there an "unlike..." at the end of that sentence that you chose to omit?

I dont think theres only a metric problem, i find it hard to believe that any metric in the world says smash and operative healers are merely "doing ok" in 8v8.

I think they watch the metrics but they also have a biased opinion behind the metrics (deception "lone wolf", h2f, ranged vanguard, perception problem).

Not saying that arent metrics and they dont watch them, but im pretty sure they watch it witha biased view otherwise we would certainly see massive buffs for concealment / mercs because boy these guys are almost non-existant in 8v8.

And yeah sorcs can be highly effective in 8v8 although they are very weak when picked apart individually.

The problem is, for example, Marauder can also be very efficient in 8v8 while still being strong as **** individually.

We're only doing well because there are seven other people in wzs to help distract/heal/taunt in an exceedingly uncoordinated environment. I and many other sorcs I've played with consistently top our team's charts, if not the entire wz's, but that's a result of knowing the class and the general concept behind cloth classes in every game, using the environment, using our offensive cooldowns and generally hoping your opponents are incompetents.

 

In other words, we do well, sometimes exceptionally so, if left alone. The issue comes when we are trained by melee who have several roots, slows, stuns and lots of burst. With the exception of healers specced into Fadeout, we have a whopping one cooldown to blow in those situations, and that's up only every 2.5 minutes at best, whereas you look at operatives with Shield Probe, Evasion, stealth at baseline, all of which are on 1 minute or less timers, not to mention how well they get buffed when specced for, and then there's the medium armor.

 

You see some sorcs doing well because we are, typically, highly intelligent and aware of our surroundings and abilities. What comes with that is an acute awareness of our flaws, too.

 

 

Regarding the OP, they really should have said that all they were paying attention to for these answers was the live game, and not the PTS where only a handful of highly skilled players (Mudclot, Thurinlore, Xenobia, etc) are able to make the class work when presented with the godcleave, and even then it's a very uphill battle.

I love these lame excuses. Your class only does well because YOU are awesome (and a gift from God) and the WZ ignores you. (Stupid plebians)

SO ridiculous. You are doing well because Sorcs don't need major changes. Perhaps some tweaks but overall there isn't a lot wrong with the class.

I dont think theres only a metric problem, i find it hard to believe that any metric in the world says smash and operative healers are merely "doing ok" in 8v8.

 

I think they watch the metrics but they also have a biased opinion behind the metrics (deception "lone wolf", h2f, ranged vanguard, perception problem).

 

Not saying that arent metrics and they dont watch them, but im pretty sure they watch it witha biased view otherwise we would certainly see massive buffs for concealment / mercs because boy these guys are almost non-existant in 8v8.

The real issue is not that smash is OP or that Scoundrels/Operative Healers are OP. The real issue is that because they are fine at what they do (massive damage/great HPS) and they are not that hard to play people like them. Therefore, they become FOTM. That translates to more people playing Op healers and Smashers. Which, in turn, means that you get WZs with 4 Op healers where no one is dying and the rest are most likely some form of Smasher. And when Smashers get paired with Operatives no one is dying but you.

Therefore, the real issue is not so much in individual specs, but rather in the huge number of people who see that that spec works and consequently choose to run as that because big numbers (heals/DPS) are fun.

1 OP healer or 1 Smasher can hardly make a difference if you know how to counter them. But 3 Op healers and 3 Smashers (plus 2 randoms) ARE a real problem. Matchmaking is horrible in the game - and it's only made worse by premades.

I love these lame excuses. Your class only does well because YOU are awesome (and a gift from God) and the WZ ignores you. (Stupid plebians)

 

SO ridiculous. You are doing well because Sorcs don't need major changes. Perhaps some tweaks but overall there isn't a lot wrong with the class.

You are completely wrong here, Arkerus. The class doesn't lack the tools if left to freecast, especially if we're talking about pure damage and the Lightning tree - but then again no class does - but the point is that if freecasting is hard in an 8vs8 map, where you have the room to run and kite and LoS, imagine how that will be like in the smaller 4vs4 Arenas.

The point Sorcerers are trying to make is that we need pampering that in normal warzones you can't expect to find because people rarely care if you survive as long as they do, even if sometimes their survival is linked to yours.

Operatives/Scoundrels are doing well because they can get good numbers AND don't need you to constantly look after them.

We're only doing well because there are seven other people in wzs to help distract/heal/taunt in an exceedingly uncoordinated environment. I and many other sorcs I've played with consistently top our team's charts, if not the entire wz's, but that's a result of knowing the class and the general concept behind cloth classes in every game, using the environment, using our offensive cooldowns and generally hoping your opponents are incompetents.

 

In other words, we do well, sometimes exceptionally so, if left alone. The issue comes when we are trained by melee who have several roots, slows, stuns and lots of burst. With the exception of healers specced into Fadeout, we have a whopping one cooldown to blow in those situations, and that's up only every 2.5 minutes at best, whereas you look at operatives with Shield Probe, Evasion, stealth at baseline, all of which are on 1 minute or less timers, not to mention how well they get buffed when specced for, and then there's the medium armor.

 

You see some sorcs doing well because we are, typically, highly intelligent and aware of our surroundings and abilities. What comes with that is an acute awareness of our flaws, too.

 

 

Regarding the OP, they really should have said that all they were paying attention to for these answers was the live game, and not the PTS where only a handful of highly skilled players (Mudclot, Thurinlore, Xenobia, etc) are able to make the class work when presented with the godcleave, and even then it's a very uphill battle.

So in other words you do well because you've learned to play your class?

Also, do you realize that you ought to be shut down in the situation you describe (i.e. being focused by melee) because that is exactly how your (or any class for that matter) ought to be countered and that this is what true class balance is? E.g. classes are meant to have flaws, it's part of balance.

So in other words you do well because you've learned to play your class?

 

Also, do you realize that you ought to be shut down in the situation you describe (i.e. being focused by melee) because that is exactly how your (or any class for that matter) ought to be countered and that this is what true class balance is? E.g. classes are meant to have flaws, it's part of balance.

I don't think he does. That question was not on the IQ test that you apparently have to pass in order to roll a sorcerer.

Perhaps I didn't really explain why I went in the first place.

 

This time last week, we sorcs were healing the forums to full after being told to make them pay for trying to kill us. (Click the link in my sig for more explanation and laughs.) This led us sorcs to have certain perception problems as the answers we received last week certainly did not seem right, and I refer more to the tone of said answers than anything else.

 

I just saw that video hilarious!

1. They're always listening.

2. They're always paying attention.

3. They're always gathering feedback.

Doesn't get more politically correct than this. Perhaps if they'd put half as much effort into balance as they do in copy pasting armors into the Cartel Market this game would see a much brighter future.

We're only doing well because there are seven other people in wzs to help distract/heal/taunt in an exceedingly uncoordinated environment. I and many other sorcs I've played with consistently top our team's charts, if not the entire wz's, but that's a result of knowing the class and the general concept behind cloth classes in every game, using the environment, using our offensive cooldowns and generally hoping your opponents are incompetents.

In other words... working as intended, and working well in .... wait for it..... group play... by.. wait for it.. competent players. Astonishing... balanced around good group play and expectations as to average skill of players... NOT solo monkey_key_smash while blind folded play.

The only concern I have from what the OP relayed form the Cantina Event is now they are saying they need to rebalance due to Arena play.. yet in other discussions.... they admit that Blizzard blew it with this approach and they have vowed to have learned from the lesson. So.. I genuinely hope that any adjustments to arenas is careful, considerate, and does not destroy other play in the game as the expense to balance a class in arenas.

The two things I got from a superficial review of his respons were 1. In the future we will try to be more polite about the way we go about telling players to go **** themselves, and 2. We are employing mathematicians with no real concept of how the game actually works for individual classes to balance said classess such that one wz after another in which teams of derpers allow a sorc/sage to freecast heals means that the class is A-OK.

Nice hyperbole with a snarky cherry on top there.

You forgot that for your number 1 take away.. they have to get in line behind the players on that first.

So in other words you do well because you've learned to play your class?

Please tell me : Do you think it is intended that some classes are easier to "learn to play your class" than other classes are ?

Please tell me : Do you think it is intended that some classes are easier to "learn to play your class" than other classes are ?

Lightning Spec Sorcerer is like the easiest thing to play in the game...

Lightning Spec Sorcerer is like the easiest thing to play in the game...

I largely agree. The difference, though, is that it's ridiculously easy to shut down a lightning sorc while a smashmonkey has many more cds and utility when compared to sorcs.

For a class that's basically designed to turret to be so easily shut down is quite frankly insulting, especially when compared to the other turret in game, snipers.

Metrics can be false positives if not thrown upside down and inside out every once in a while.

Who do these metrics say they are healing mostly? I've heard SORC healers come out of PVP stating they healed themselves more than anyone else. ***? How is that productive and competitive?

The biggest issue: Light Armor!!! We have it and others don't. Therefore we should "In theory" have more defensive tools than our fellow smashmonkeys FOTM and Sniper buddies. Hell I love rolling with a couple OP Healers and Snipers for Ranged in OPS. Makes life easier when I play a tank and as a Sorc Healer...

You see some sorcs doing well because we are, typically, highly intelligent and aware of our surroundings and abilities. What comes with that is an acute awareness of our flaws, too.

LMAO

Too bad your Mensa kind is not working on a cure for cancer instead of playing video games.