We are not an ideal DPS choice. Why? Every other DPS class can do one thing we cannot, and most can bring unique tools to group, while we bring none.

A. We cannot interrupt attacks on important boss fights like the Mine Field in HM EC. (Or LI HM, or Jarg and Sorno, )

B. We do not offer anything unique to the group. Such as:

-- a unique boost like Sentinels (Inspiration)

--a group bubble defense (Gunslingers)

--pulling the player from danger. (Sages)

C. We no longer give a unique armor debuff (due to recent changes).

And before anyone says the words "Off Heals." Let me beat you to it:

The "off heals" heal in the nature of 1k to 3k, at the cost of ammo 2 to 3 ammo, and 1.5-3 seconds of our time and an expensive cleanse that won't even remove most debuffs. The cost alone makes them prohibitive because the extra drain of energy will severely limit your regeneration rate--and thus limit your DPS. Furthermore "off heals" detract from your actual job: beating the enrage timer, and every boss has one. No operations leader is going to say: "I'm not confident in my tank's gear, or healer's capacity...I better get an off healer!" They will simply get a different healer or tank.

And even if "Off heals" were a valid argument (And I don't believe they are for a boss fight.) let me point out that Scoundrel DPS can off heal at instant speed, and Sentinels (Zen) outclass us completely when in comes healing output while not sacrificing the time they devote to DPS.

I'll just play devil's advocate, though I doubt I'll change your mind.

Your "unique" ability is stealth scan. Not the best, but no worse than some others (DPS Shadows, Vanguards and Guardians have no "unique" abilities at all; Scoundrels have Smuggle, which is no better than stealth scan; DPS Sages essentially never use Rescue in combat any more than DPS Commandos off-heal). Basically what's left with truly good "unique" abilities are the pure DPS specs (Sentinel Inspiration and Gunslinger bubble), which I think is basically as intended.

Commandos have excellent AoE damage. They have very high uptime with sustained single-target DPS, compared to the melee-range classes. They have the best armor available. They have good short and long-term CC (equalled only by Sages). I would not say "off-healing," since that is rarely done, but you do have the ability to directly heal yourself on demand, and to cleanse debuffs off yourself, which is not shared by the pure DPS specs and is a non-negligible PvE survival advantage. You have an in-combat rez; if a healer goes down, you can get them back up; not unique, but I suspect the five classes without an in-combat rez wouldn't mind having one at all.

For PvE, I would definitely put Commandos in the top half of the DPS specs, overall (together with the other two ranged, and Sentinels). Sentinels and Gunslingers are probably the top two, but I don't see any real gap between Commandos and Sages; they are just different.

I'll just play devil's advocate, though I doubt I'll change your mind.

 

Your "unique" ability is stealth scan.

Name for me one PvE end game fight where stealth detection has even the smallest role. Even non endgame boss fights like Battle for Ilum..your stealth detection doesn't reveal the boss when he vanishes.

At best you can argue False Emperor's HK.

Not the best, but no worse than some others (DPS Shadows, Vanguards and Guardians have no "unique" abilities at all;

Your missing the point: I'm not arguing all these classes unique abilities. I'm arguing that *all* off them can interrupt abilities, and some of them have unique in combat skills on top of that which benefit the raid while not compromising their DPS role. We have neither.

 

Scoundrels have Smuggle, which is no better than stealth scan;

 

Again, not an in combat skill. And Just like stealth detection, it's meant to be more of a PvP skill. At best you can use it it avoid trash. (NOTE: In explosive conflict, and op with STEALTHED mobs. You cannot even use Stealth Detection on them until after combat starts, because they don't spawn until the fight starts.)

DPS Sages essentially never use Rescue in combat any more than DPS Commandos off-heal).

Pulling someone to safety out of the bad? This ability actually has use in boss fights--allowing another player a crucial few moments of extra DPS, or saving them from a mistake.

Commandos have excellent AoE damage.

They have very high uptime with sustained single-target DPS, compared to the melee-range classes.

They have the best armor available.

Our armor grants about 5% more damage mitigation than an equally geared medium armor class. (30% vs 25% mitiation.)

They have good short and long-term CC (equalled only by Sages).

You sure about that? Because to date there's only one boss fight were CC comes into play. That's HM Denova's Minefield. And do you know what you CC? Droids. Gunslingers out class us again for this encounter. Slice Droids is far more effective in that fight, and their flash bang will stun an entire group in place for 8 seconds--our Cryo Grenade will only do 1 person for 4.

But you do have the ability to directly heal yourself on demand, and to cleanse debuffs off yourself, which is not shared by the pure DPS specs and is a non-negligible PvE survival advantage

I'll admit the self cleanse is useful in theory. The only problem is that it's doesn't cleanse most effects, and the ones it DOES clean in a boss fight (Torn an Zoth) you should be avoiding by staying at ranged in the first place.

Let me be clear here, I'm not talking about how much damage we do. I'm talking about what unique skills we bring to help the Operations group beat an enrage timer and down a boss. Which is nothing. And at the same time we cannot even do the one thing every other DPS can do: interupt.

We are not an ideal DPS choice. Why? Every other DPS class can do one thing we cannot, and most can bring unique tools to group, while we bring none.

 

A. We cannot interrupt attacks on important boss fights like the Mine Field in HM EC. (Or LI HM, or Jarg and Sorno, )

 

B. We do not offer anything unique to the group. Such as:

-- a unique boost like Sentinels (Inspiration)

--a group bubble defense (Gunslingers)

--pulling the player from danger. (Sages)

 

C. We no longer give a unique armor debuff (due to recent changes).

 

 

And before anyone says the words "Off Heals." Let me beat you to it:

 

The "off heals" heal in the nature of 1k to 3k, at the cost of ammo 2 to 3 ammo, and 1.5-3 seconds of our time and an expensive cleanse that won't even remove most debuffs. The cost alone makes them prohibitive because the extra drain of energy will severely limit your regeneration rate--and thus limit your DPS. Furthermore "off heals" detract from your actual job: beating the enrage timer, and every boss has one. No operations leader is going to say: "I'm not confident in my tank's gear, or healer's capacity...I better get an off healer!" They will simply get a different healer or tank.

 

And even if "Off heals" were a valid argument (And I don't believe they are for a boss fight.) let me point out that Scoundrel DPS can off heal at instant speed, and Sentinels (Zen) outclass us completely when in comes healing output while not sacrificing the time they devote to DPS.

I know you said ideal but keep in mind that the first thing required for a true viable DPS spec in raids is the ability to do high sustained damage. In this aspect Infiltration Shadows, DPS Scoundrels, DPS vanguards are all far inferior to a Gunnery Commando. From a pure DPS perspective I'll be happy to go against any other DPS class in the game. I'm not saying I can always beat a blinged Sentinel, but I guarantee you I can keep it competitive and remember that I can do my damage at range in a game that heavily favors ranged DPS in it's PVE content. Bonethrasher and Toth/Zorn in particular heavily favor ranged DPS, and any fight that requires you to quickly switch targets that are spread far apart also favors ranged DPS. Of course this is true for Gunslingers and Sages as well, but the point stands.

With that being said, let me address your points.

a) On the minefield, your tank should be interrupting the cleaves. The other big thing to interrupt are the overcharges and those cast so quickly that honestly a sentinel is the only class that can really viably interrupt them solo. Gunslinger/Shadow interrupts are on a 12s cooldown, and a sniper has long cast times same as us to contend with and so are not ideal for interrupt duty. They can go to a rotation but fact is that a single sentinel is way better than 2 or 3 other people trying to go through an interrupt rotation on overcharge.

In HM LI your tank will always have an interrupt and that's the only thing you need for LR-5. The first several times I completed this FP on HM was with two commando DPS. This is actually ideal for Dr. Lorrick since a commando can cleanse themselves from the DoT which is very helpful for your healer. Don't knock the ability to cleanse. The times it's useful, it's VERY useful.

On Jarg and Sorno you have two interrupts to get. The tank on Sorno should get one and a sentinel should get the other.

What I'm saying is that the ability to interrupt becomes a non factor the second you invite a Sentinel to your raid group. You want inspiration right? There's basically only two fights in the game where you even need a second interrupt anyway (HM minefield and Jarg/Sorno if you want to also get unload since it does so much damage). That's two fights of the 14 endgame fights. If you want to get technical you should definitely have multiple interrupts on Nightmare Pilgrim too, but that fight requires 16. Point is, as soon as you have enough interrupts, having more doesn't really help you, and 4/5 of the time "enough interrupts" equates to 0 interrupts.

b) Keep in mind that the ability to fight at range is in itself a very compelling reason to bring us (remember that in addition to having sustained DPS problems, the above mentioned classes have to be in melee range to really get the most out of their DPS). The argument is made that the reason Sentinels need to be able to bring so much to the table in addition to having so much single target DPS is the fact that they have to be in melee range which exposes them to all sorts of nastiness. From there, lets examine the examples you cited.

-Inspiration is an amazing buff, but it lasts for 15 seconds out of every 5 minutes. It's great to give your raid that extra little push in burn phases, but the fact is that if the difference in winning or losing on a boss encounter is inspiration then you have other issues besides the DPS commando you brought. Stacking Sentinels is still not going to give you 100% or anything like it, though I suppose stacking 10 Sentinels for DPS in a 16 man could give you 50% uptime on it.

-The Gunslinger shield is very useful in precisely two fights in my opinion. Annihilator Droid in EV for dealing with massive missle spam, and on Gift of the masters to give the raid a direction to run and provide a little defensive boost while they run out. Other times it can be nice to have in some dire situations but not nearly as useful as inspiration, which I think we can agree is always useful.

-Rescue from sages is useful in three fights. For getting people from the east side to the west side on Soa during the transition from phase 2 to phase 3 (someone inevitably gets out of the air or was in a mindtrap when he gets pushed to 30%). Depending on how you do HM Toth and Zorn they're useful for taking someone who gets the yellow circle on the Zorn side and pulling them to the Toth side (we keep the Zorn DPS the next best thing to 70m away from Toth). And for rescuing someone right after they use their harpoon to deliver the bomb to the walker in Kephess (person with the bomb icon runs under the walker, soon as they start to get pulled they get rescued, taking much less damage). Note that two of those can be done by any sage regardless of role since there's nothing else going on at the time, and on Toth and Zorn it's more a matter of whether you want to lose a healer for the time it takes them to run and rescue the person with the yellow circle or a DPS. Our main Sage for raids is specced heals and he manages to do it just fine, but its more an argument to bring a sage of any role rather than an argument to bring a Sage DPS specifically.

Since you brought up heals, offheals are useful in transition phases of Soa for getting people topped off quickly. Especially if there was a delay in the descent and you can't take too long healing up on the second platform because the third dropped soon after you got there. Spot heals from a commando can be very helpful to getting everyone topped off. Especially if you aren't using two sage healers for the double puddle. They can also be used to top of the raid before Kephess hits 60%, as well as keeping people healthy on the Pulsar droids since that phase of Kephess is definitely not a DPS race. I'll also point out that my AMP hits for around 1800 noncrit, and my MP hits for about 3100 noncrit, and in an emergency MP can be instant cast with TO.

A gunnery commando also brings to the party an incombat useable CC that works on everything, and frankly the most potent AoE arsenal in the game. Both are useful for different trash pulls within HM denova, and both can be very useful in some of the harder boss fights. The two biggest examples are HM Colonel Vorgath and HM Kephess. The assasin droids that spawn in the minefield on hard mode can wipe a raid, and might start spawning right as you have to pull a droid. A commando is one of only two classes who can either CC those droids until they can be dealt with (and unlike sages we can do it instantly in any spec with Tech Override), or can simply AoE them down. My group uses two commando DPS and we often just double MV the droids when they get in range which kills them. Our DPS is such that we can then immediately get back on the droid and still beat the enrage. On HM Kephess the ability to deal high AoE damage to an unlimited number of targets cannot be overestimated enough. The trandoshan groups spawn VERY quickly in hard mode and it's imperitive that your tanks seperate the trenchgutters from the warriors and that your DPS then AoE the trenchgutters down as quickly as possible. Failure to do so will pretty much guarantee a wipe. Pulse Cannon and MV both hit an unlimited amount of targets and Hail of Bolts or TO > RP > Plasma grenade > Sticky will clear the stragglers and are fire and forget. Those are only two fights, but our ability to kill assassin droids at range is just as important as the Sentinel's ability to interrupt overcharge, and Freighter Flyby is on a 45-60s cooldown after which GS AoE is kinda wimpy while we still have high damaging tools in our arsenal.

C. This is group makeup dependent. Our main competition for getting a spot because of armor debuff is a gunslinger. As far as I know, they are the only other ranged class that can apply a 20% armor debuff. Sages certainly can't. For that matter, they're melee but I don't think that Sentinels can either. In 8 man that makes us a very good class to bring, especially on fights that force the raid to split into two groups which then requires two armor debuffs.

In conclusion, we bring incredibly heavy sustained DPS to any raid, along with what I personally feel is the most powerful AoE arsenal in the game. While we don't truly offer any one thing that another DPS can't also do, the only truly always useful ability we don't have is the inspiration ability, which is held by a class with no ranged AoE potential. When it comes to raiding you should always take the player over the class, but in my opinion the first classes people should be looking for for endgame raiding DPS are Sentinals, Gunslingers, and Gunnery Commandos, not necessarily in that order. There are spots in the raid for all of those, and stacking any of them to the exclusion of the other two will cost your group tactical flexibility that it would have with a more varied roster.

All that being said, while I would love an interrupt and a unique boost, I frankly haven't felt like dead weight in an operation since the 1.3 changes (even then I didn't feel like dead weight, though I did feel like I was really working much harder for only middle of the road DPS). DPS commandos are fine in PVE. If BW is going to make changes to a classes DPS trees, I honestly feel they should look at buffing Shadows, Scoundrels, and Vanguards since in my opinion those classes really suffer in PVE for good heavy sustained DPS, and they lack even the little utility which we bring.

ArchangelLBC that is by far the best reply I've ever seen on gunnery commando being valuable in PVE content. You hit everything . To the original poster. It's all about Rotation Rotation Rotation and ammo management. I never hammer shot at all which is where I think most "gunnery" commandos lose dps because of them unable to manage their ammo so they hammershot. Fully geared and "optimizing" your gear with the right stats is what makes our dps able to compete with Sentinels and other high dps classes. Also our area dmg is one of the biggest reasons to bring our class to operations alone. Especially in EC for Kephess and dealing with trash mobs in general.

If you cannot sustain good dps as a gunnery commando after the 1.3 update then it's the player not the class. If your guild or people you raid with have that bad of a perception of commando gunnery then I suggest finding another guild or people to raid with.

They have a channeled AOE on a minute cool down, and a channeled AoE that has no cool down. Gunslingers have a short cast AoE that allows them to stack their own non-CD AoE attacked on top of it.

Yeah those overpowered Gunslinger AOES.....

I mean all I can do is stack Plasma Grenade, Sticky Grenade then Pulse Cannon a whole pack to hell.

On top of the short cast, massive damage Mortar Volley which I can use on a different pack immediately after. The important thing is you don't have to wait forever for the damage...

Wait a minute, that sounds suspiciously better than the AOE capability of a Gunslinger...

I guess the grass is always greener...

One of my previous guilds was extremely Commando-heavy, and we had zero problems clearing Denova or KP Nightmare with 3 DPS Commandos in an 8-man group, or rolling through Lost Island hard mode with two of them.

I have an undergeared Level 50 Commando, but my main is a tank, and having multiple Commandos in any group wouldn't bother me in the least.

If your guild or people you raid with have that bad of a perception of commando gunnery then I suggest finding another guild or people to raid with.

Kak, we only take you along on raids because we know you have terrible luck at loot rolls, which allows one of our other 3+ Commando's a chance at better gear

I know you said ideal but keep in mind that the first thing required for a true viable DPS spec in raids is the ability to do high sustained damage. In this aspect Infiltration Shadows, DPS Scoundrels, DPS vanguards are all far inferior to a Gunnery Commando. From a pure DPS perspective I'll be happy to go against any other DPS class in the game. I'm not saying I can always beat a blinged Sentinel, but I guarantee you I can keep it competitive and remember that I can do my damage at range in a game that heavily favors ranged DPS in it's PVE content. Bonethrasher and Toth/Zorn in particular heavily favor ranged DPS, and any fight that requires you to quickly switch targets that are spread far apart also favors ranged DPS. Of course this is true for Gunslingers and Sages as well, but the point stands.

 

The point doesn't stand. Bioware has stated their goal is go have all DPS classes do the same amount of DPS, within a 5% variation for error. Our "high sustained damage" cannot be the unique tool we bring to the table--because--as nerfs and buffs have already demonstrated--that will continue always be in flux.

 

a) On the minefield, your tank should be interrupting the cleaves. The other big thing to interrupt are the overcharges and those cast so quickly that honestly a sentinel is the only class that can really viably interrupt them solo. Gunslinger/Shadow interrupts are on a 12s cooldown, and a sniper has long cast times same as us to contend with and so are not ideal for interrupt duty. They can go to a rotation but fact is that a single sentinel is way better than 2 or 3 other people trying to go through an interrupt rotation on overcharge.

 

In HM LI your tank will always have an interrupt and that's the only thing you need for LR-5. The first several times I completed this FP on HM was with two commando DPS. This is actually ideal for Dr. Lorrick since a commando can cleanse themselves from the DoT which is very helpful for your healer. Don't knock the ability to cleanse. The times it's useful, it's VERY useful.

 

On Jarg and Sorno you have two interrupts to get. The tank on Sorno should get one and a sentinel should get the other.

 

What I'm saying is that the ability to interrupt becomes a non factor the second you invite a Sentinel to your raid group.

Thank you ArchangelLBC, you just proved one of my points. Out of four DPS slots in an 8 man operations group. Commandos are automatically disqualified from one. Every other class can fill that DPS roll because they have an interrupt.

b) Keep in mind that the ability to fight at range is in itself a very compelling reason to bring us (remember that in addition to having sustained DPS problems, the above mentioned classes have to be in melee range to really get the most out of their DPS). The argument is made that the reason Sentinels need to be able to bring so much to the table in addition to having so much single target DPS is the fact that they have to be in melee range which exposes them to all sorts of nastiness. From there, lets examine the examples you cited.

 

-Inspiration is an amazing buff, but it lasts for 15 seconds out of every 5 minutes. It's great to give your raid that extra little push in burn phases, but the fact is that if the difference in winning or losing on a boss encounter is inspiration then you have other issues besides the DPS commando you brought. Stacking Sentinels is still not going to give you 100% or anything like it, though I suppose stacking 10 Sentinels for DPS in a 16 man could give you 50% uptime on it.

 

If recent videos have proven anything, it's that you can clear operations with 4 melee classes. But that doesn't matter, because at this point you're just theory carting how good or bad Inspiration is. You're missing the point. Good or Bad, Inspiration is something the Sentinel can bring something unique to a group to assist them. Commandos cannot.

-The Gunslinger shield is very useful in precisely two fights in my opinion. Annihilator Droid in EV for dealing with massive missle spam, and on Gift of the masters to give the raid a direction to run and provide a little defensive boost while they run out. Other times it can be nice to have in some dire situations but not nearly as useful as inspiration, which I think we can agree is always useful.

The gunslinger should be saved for those specific phases on those fights yes. But aside form that it should (it can be, and is) used on Cool Down to limit damage to those near it. It is an insntant ability that you can use ever 180 seconds that lasts for 15 seconds, costs no energy, and IIRC doesn't even trigger your global cool down. There's no reason *NOT* to always use it. (except in the scenarios above where you'd save it.)

But again, you miss the point. It's not how good the shield is or isn't. It's that its unique and they have it. AND an interrupt.

-Rescue from sages is useful in three fights. For getting people from the east side to the west side on Soa during the transition from phase 2 to phase 3 (someone inevitably gets out of the air or was in a mindtrap when he gets pushed to 30%). Depending on how you do HM Toth and Zorn they're useful for taking someone who gets the yellow circle on the Zorn side and pulling them to the Toth side (we keep the Zorn DPS the next best thing to 70m away from Toth). And for rescuing someone right after they use their harpoon to deliver the bomb to the walker in Kephess (person with the bomb icon runs under the walker, soon as they start to get pulled they get rescued, taking much less damage). Note that two of those can be done by any sage regardless of role since there's nothing else going on at the time, and on Toth and Zorn it's more a matter of whether you want to lose a healer for the time it takes them to run and rescue the person with the yellow circle or a DPS. Our main Sage for raids is specced heals and he manages to do it just fine, but its more an argument to bring a sage of any role rather than an argument to bring a Sage DPS specifically.

 

Rescue is useful in EVERY boss fight where there is "bad" to avoid on the ground, or where a unfortunate circumstance or fight mechanics puts a player out of position. That includes EV bosses 1,2, and KP 1-5, and EC 1,2,4. It's called Rescue for a reason.

And on top of that it can reduce aggro. (Admittedly, not really an issue after recent tank changes.)

Since you brought up heals, offheals are useful in transition phases of Soa for getting people topped off quickly. Especially if there was a delay in the descent and you can't take too long healing up on the second platform because the third dropped soon after you got there. Spot heals from a commando can be very helpful to getting everyone topped off. Especially if you aren't using two sage healers for the double puddle. They can also be used to top of the raid before Kephess hits 60%, as well as keeping people healthy on the Pulsar droids since that phase of Kephess is definitely not a DPS race. I'll also point out that my AMP hits for around 1800 noncrit, and my MP hits for about 3100 noncrit, and in an emergency MP can be instant cast with TO.

Again, as I already said, no operations leader is going to say "Our healers aren't that good, we better get a DPS who can off heal." They're simply going to get a better healer.

A gunnery commando also brings to the party an incombat useable CC that works on everything, and frankly the most potent AoE arsenal in the game. Both are useful for different trash pulls within HM denova, and both can be very useful in some of the harder boss fights. The two biggest examples are HM Colonel Vorgath and HM Kephess. The assasin droids that spawn in the minefield on hard mode can wipe a raid, and might start spawning right as you have to pull a droid. A commando is one of only two classes who can either CC those droids until they can be dealt with (and unlike sages we can do it instantly in any spec with Tech Override),

You mean one of five classes? Because Sentinels, Soundrels, and Gunslingers can all slice droids. My gunslinger slice droid doesn't even have a 60 second cool down...the commando ability does.

On HM Kephess the ability to deal high AoE damage to an unlimited number of targets cannot be overestimated enough. The trandoshan groups spawn VERY quickly in hard mode and it's imperitive that your tanks seperate the trenchgutters from the warriors and that your DPS then AoE the trenchgutters down as quickly as possible. Failure to do so will pretty much guarantee a wipe. Pulse Cannon and MV both hit an unlimited amount of targets and Hail of Bolts or TO > RP > Plasma grenade > Sticky will clear the stragglers and are fire and forget. Those are only two fights, but our ability to kill assassin droids at range is just as important as the Sentinel's ability to interrupt overcharge, and Freighter Flyby is on a 45-60s cooldown after which GS AoE is kinda wimpy while we still have high damaging tools in our arsenal.

Let's break these abilities down.

1. Pulse Cannon: Usable by all troopers not commandos. (Requires that you be in melee--which goes directly against you everything you've said about us being ranged DPS.)

2. Mortar Volley = Usable by all troopers, not just commandos. Smuggler Equivalent is Freighter Fly by. Fly by is on a shorter cool down, and is a casted ability, not channeled. What does this mean? That you can use flyby and stack other DPS abilities on top of it (like Sweeping Gunfire.) and your energy regen is better during the casting time because it's not a channel.

3. Sticky Grenade = Useable by all troopers, not just commandos. Smuggler Equivalent is Thermal Grenade. Note the smuggler equivalent is an instant. Some fights make the sticky delay useful, I'll admit, when you have a narrow DPS window (stacking damage for SOA, or KP's Puzzle fight.)

4. Hail of Bolts = Usable by only Commandos. Smuggler equivalent is Sweeping Gunfire

5. Plasma Grenade = A terrible commando only DPS ability that is only made useful when combined with Tech Override to remove it's atrocious casting time. (And possibly RP to turn its cost to 0.) So, you were planning on using that TO for Concussive Round, you can't use it for this. Believe me I would *LOVE* for plasma grenade to actually be useful on its own without needing to consume 1 or 2 other CDs to be worth it.

What does this mean? A raid leader can take take a vanguard in our place and lose only 1 AoE, and gain their close range AoEs instead. (And they'll be in range if using Pulse Cannon anyway. Or a gunslinger and stack on equivalent or better AoE. And gain an extra interupt.

When it comes to raiding you should always take the player over the class, but in my opinion the first classes

Which is exactly my point. Commandos cannot interrupt, so we are disqualified as a class from DPS slots because of this...and we bring nothing unique to the group that could help make up for it. As demonstrated above, everything else we bring is not only shared by other classes, but their abilities are better designed for it.

 

If you cannot sustain good dps as a gunnery commando after the 1.3 update then it's the player not the class. If your guild or people you raid with have that bad of a perception of commando gunnery then I suggest finding another guild or people to raid with.

As I have said before. And will say again. IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW MUCH DPS ANY GIVEN DPS CLASS DOES. That doesn't matter with the 5% DPS variance goal.

It's about what abilities we do or do not bring to the table.

As I have said before. And will say again. IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW MUCH DPS ANY GIVEN DPS CLASS DOES. That doesn't matter with the 5% DPS variance goal.

 

It's about what abilities we do or do not bring to the table.

You keep comparing apples and oranges though. Leave Sentinels and Gunslingers out of the discussion, because they are pure DPS classes, and have different design parameters. Given that they have no ability to perform any other role, they are given (slightly) greater utility in the single role they can perform.

Among the other DPS specs, do you really think Commandos are worse than DPS Scoundrels, Guardians, Vanguards or Shadows in PvE? Sure, they all have interrupts, but none of them has in-combat lock-down CC (which can be instantly fired in a pinch) that hits everything. Apart from Vanguards, and maybe Focus Guardians, none of them have AoE worth mentioning. Apart from DPS Scoundrels (which are non-existent in PvE), none have self-cleanse or significant self-healing capability. None of them have in-combat rezzes. All of them are melee and will suffer in many fights due to their limited range and reduced up-time. Scoundrels and DPS Vanguards have no gap closers at all in boss fights. All of these classes have multiple obvious disadvantages compared to Commandos in current content. In fact, an interrupt is the *only* truly useful thing they can do in combat which a Commando cannot.

That leaves Sages, who I think are basically on-par with Commandos. It is simply crazy to suggest a raid leader is going to bring a DPS Sage because they can Rescue someone in the middle of a fight. That's like expecting a DPS Commando to constantly watch health bars and save people with Tech Override + Medical Probe, which we agree is not done in practice (but if you want to be silly, TO + MP is arguably superior to Rescue in many situations - rescuing a tank is extremely dangerous; anyone in melee who is rescued is now out of the fight; anyone casting when rescued just got interrupted. TO + MP has none of these disadvantages).

Sages have an interrupt but their cast times mean interrupting is a significant DPS loss (unlike melee) when they can do it at all (and the same would be true for Commandos, by the way). In our raids, we do NOT ask ranged DPS to interrupt for this very reason - it is inefficient. Sages also wear light armor, have a bit less AoE and cannot to use any cast-time ability instantly, which is powerful when used to full advantage.

Unless you want every class to have identical abilities, those sorts of differences, which in no way disqualify a given class from performing its role (note: interrupting is not a role), are inevitable.

Among the other DPS specs, do you really think Commandos are worse than DPS Scoundrels, Guardians, Vanguards or Shadows in PvE? Sure, they all have interrupts, but none of them has in-combat lock-down CC (which can be instantly fired in a pinch) that hits everything. Apart from Vanguards, and maybe Focus Guardians, none of them have AoE worth mentioning. Apart from DPS Scoundrels (which are non-existent in PvE), none have self-cleanse or significant self-healing capability. None of them have in-combat rezzes. All of them are melee and will suffer in many fights due to their limited range and reduced up-time. Scoundrels and DPS Vanguards have no gap closers at all in boss fights. All of these classes have multiple obvious disadvantages compared to Commandos in current content. In fact, an interrupt is the *only* truly useful thing they can do in combat which a Commando cannot.

 

Some snips there and this post is aimed at the whole of the thread, not this poster in particular. Couple things re:Scoundrels. Scoundrels, like Commandos and Sages, have an in combat rez. I interpret you as saying they don't since you ended the sentence with the exclusion rather than continuing with a comma or semicolon. Yes I'm a turd like that. Additionally, Stealth classes have the ability, but not always the capability, to in combat stealth and out of combat rez. Still, not that big of a deal (used it 2x myself).

Mainly I wanted to counter that "scoundrel dps can off heal instantly" part on the OP, since it's a lie. No dps scoundrel has an instant cast heal. The instant cast is half way up the heal tree, and the base scoundrel heals are all cast times. At any rate, I stand with the "L2P" crowd, though no one's said that yet, because my guild and allies run with commando dps and mando healers all the time in 8 man and 16man, story and hard mode ops (up to and including HM EC). The dps mandos have been both gunny and assault spec'd.

Just because you're not viable, doesn't mean the class isn't. Just the combination of your chosen rotation/reactions and gear and possibly actions taken by your group mates (I suppose). Additionally, with regards to sents/funslingers, mando's can cc out of combat, which while not as cool (apparently) as a no-CD droid only cc (given to dps only classes), is more and less useful depending on the situation as it is in and out of combat and droid / humanoid / animal useable. Maybe that sucks because of the CD, or maybe a group who is affected by that should 1) stop breaking cc, 2) take 20 seconds between fights for it to come off CD.

Mainly I wanted to counter that "scoundrel dps can off heal instantly" part on the OP, since it's a lie. No dps scoundrel has an instant cast heal. The instant cast is half way up the heal tree, and the base scoundrel heals are all cast times.

1. I am sorry for that error.

At any rate, I stand with the "L2P" crowd, though no one's said that yet, because my guild and allies run with commando dps and mando healers all the time in 8 man and 16man, story and hard mode ops (up to and including HM EC). The dps mandos have been both gunny and assault spec'd.

2. I do not care where you stand. If you think this about how much damage we do, then you do not understand what this post is about.

mando's can cc out of combat,

Let's be clear here, all CC's can be initiated out of combat.

The difference is that some CCs initiate combat when used. (Like ours, and Sages) While some CCs do not initiate combat and are used from stealth.(Scoundrel/Shadow Sap), CC initiates combat when used. (And cannot be used IN combat, respectively.)

I think (but could be wrong) that it's pretty obvious that I meant in combat cc, which IMO is more useful more often. There are some things I can cc as a scoundrel that help runs go faster due to skipping trash, but not many. Additionally, there seems to be a bug lately where a cc'd enemy that you're now 500m from reaches the end of his cc and then decides he's aggro'd, though again, you're far away and never threw threat his way. That's not fun, so we stopped skipping some mobs who seem to have that tendency. Anyways, I can't (as a scoundrel or sent) re cc anything non-droid if it gets broken. You can, depending on circumstances. As far as interrupts go, other classes don't have knock backs, so there are tradeoffs (and I am in favor of mando/mercs getting a true interrupt). I've never actually run with a group that didn't use JG push, Consular push, or Mando kb (or their emp equivalents) to knock Malgus off the edge in FE HM. I've also never been helpful as a scoundrel, sent, or powertech, in that situation (the knock off).

FWIW my guild runs w/ dps mandos and mercs all the time and don't have any significant "I wish we had x so we could do y" issues. FWIW, we'd never ask a mando to offheal. Actually, I've counseled a guildie who would do so that we needed his dps more than his heals and that he was wasting my heals. We do let mandos do in combat revives since IMO it is better for one dps to cast that and let the healer keep healing what is likely a precarious situation where 2 heals make the difference between another toon living/dying. I've also seen well geared and played mandos can off tank in truly dire situations (it was a very well geared mando and circumstances played out such that his dps kept him on top of the threat table w/o taunts). Unique, but shows what is possible.

I guess I'll agree to disagree on whether or not the different classes different abilties provide equivalent tradeoffs. In the end, if you're frustrated with your classes abilities, try another class, another game, take a break, or change focus for a little bit. I don't mean that as "go back to wow" or anything like that, just that sometimes we all need a break. I'm reading this subforum because my "change focus" break has me on my mando. Good luck out there.

The point doesn't stand. Bioware has stated their goal is go have all DPS classes do the same amount of DPS, within a 5% variation for error. Our "high sustained damage" cannot be the unique tool we bring to the table--because--as nerfs and buffs have already demonstrated--that will continue always be in flux.

And as BW stated with their recent response to Infiltration is not as a stand and fight class. What we can get from this is that despite their "All DPS within a 5% window" is that not all DPS are created equally. What we can take from their recent changes to gunnery, and more importantly the changes they have NOT made, is that they don't want all DPS specs to be equally viable in all situations. Did you notice something about my stated list (DPS Shadows, DPS Scoundrels and DPS Vanguards)? I said none of those have the high sustained damage that gunnery commando does and they don't. It's not even close. While occasionally a raid might bring one of those classes, given the choice between that or commando of equal gear (we'll assume the player in question has both for the purposes of discussion), the raid should take the commando. But where can commandos ACTUALLY complain about being completely outclassed? PVP. And where do ALL THREE of those classes shine in a DPS capacity? PVP. I think that balance is intentional. I don't say it's right, but it's been the state of the game for awhile and BW seems to have no qualms about keeping it that way. And more importantly if you want to know what "outclassed" actually feels like, then look at us in PVP. THATS where we're outclassed. As soon as you realize that, you'll realize that we aren't even CLOSE to being outclassed in PVE.

Thank you ArchangelLBC, you just proved one of my points. Out of four DPS slots in an 8 man operations group. Commandos are automatically disqualified from one. Every other class can fill that DPS roll because they have an interrupt.

And you completely missed my point. Unless your stated goal is to fill ALL DPS slots with one class, and one class only, you're almost certainly going to bring a Sentinel. Once you do that every other classes ability to do an interrupt becomes null and void because they are the only other interrupt you ever need, and that on only two fights in the entire game. And since we're specifically talking about interrupting overcharge solo, then as I said every DPS class that isn't a sentinel is automatically disqualified. Gunslingers can't do that. Their interrupt CD is too long. If you wanna say that we're disqualified because of that, then I say that sentinels are disqualified when you want some serious AoE damage right the hell now, and gunslingers are disqualifed if you also want serious AoE damage right the hell now, and 30s from now.

If recent videos have proven anything, it's that you can clear operations with 4 melee classes. But that doesn't matter, because at this point you're just theory carting how good or bad Inspiration is. You're missing the point. Good or Bad, Inspiration is something the Sentinel can bring something unique to a group to assist them. Commandos cannot.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I conceded that point. My point was that we also bring things to the raid that Sentinels do not. If we're just talking about us vs. sentinels then you can't say we're outclassed since we bring heavy AoE ability, a 20% Armor Debuff, an incombat CC that can be used on anything, and the ability to deal damage from 30m, while Sentinels bring....inspiration.

Your point about all melee classes clearing operations is possibly well taken, but then you can clear most operations with 4 Commando DPS too, and if you're willing to get a little creative I actually don't think clearing HM Denova with all DPS being commando would be out of the realm of possibility either. There are ways to cheese overcharge/cleave, or rotate who actually gets the stuns. It's more trouble than it's worth, but then so is bringing all melee to HM Denova. Possible, and worth doing if you really want to prove a point, but otherwise more trouble than it's worth.

The gunslinger should be saved for those specific phases on those fights yes. But aside form that it should (it can be, and is) used on Cool Down to limit damage to those near it. It is an insntant ability that you can use ever 180 seconds that lasts for 15 seconds, costs no energy, and IIRC doesn't even trigger your global cool down. There's no reason *NOT* to always use it. (except in the scenarios above where you'd save it.)

 

But again, you miss the point. It's not how good the shield is or isn't. It's that its unique and they have it. AND an interrupt.

Since the thread title is "I am frustrated with how outclassed Gunnery is by other DPS roles. (PVE)" Then how useful these unique abilities are is very much on point, because my question to you is "How outclassed are we?" The shield isn't even necessary in the fights in which it's actually undeniably useful. If you're saving it for an "oh crap" moment of the raid where everyone really needs that 20% DR, then you won't be using it on cooldown, and if the raid doesn't ever need it, then it gets relegated to the "well that's nice I suppose". At the end of the day you'll take the player and class that signed up first, not the one that happens to be a gunslinger instead of a commando because that shield just isn't all that.

Rescue is useful in EVERY boss fight where there is "bad" to avoid on the ground, or where a unfortunate circumstance or fight mechanics puts a player out of position. That includes EV bosses 1,2, and KP 1-5, and EC 1,2,4. It's called Rescue for a reason.

Wait so you want your DPS sages constantly looking around just in case someone isn't smart enough to get out of the red circles? Sounds more like a job for a healer since it's actually their job to watch the raid, but DPS have other things to do with their time/attention/force. Sorry dude I'm just not seeing it. Also we get a 20% armor debuff and they don't, so I'll take it. They do get that damnable bubble, but it's pretty situational as well.

Again, as I already said, no operations leader is going to say "Our healers aren't that good, we better get a DPS who can off heal." They're simply going to get a better healer.

I pointed out exactly two situations where I assumed you had good healers and our offheals were still useful, and I stand by those two situations. It's not about getting better healers. In both of the situations I mentioned time is a factor and a commando that can't throw out an off heal or two will make a nice difference, and I guarantee that your healers won't complain. Given your last argument about rescue, I'd just state that if your raid members keep getting caught in red circles, a raid leader isn't gonna say "we better bring a sage for rescue" they're going to tell their raid members "stop standing in crap, don't get out of position, or we'll find someone else".

You mean one of five classes? Because Sentinels, Soundrels, and Gunslingers can all slice droids. My gunslinger slice droid doesn't even have a 60 second cool down...the commando ability does.

You know what? I'll grant you that point, though only really for Gunslingers. Even if you bring a scoundrel DPS they're stuck in melee range just like the sentinels. A commando and gunslinger can hang back a little bit and actually reliably target those droids without having the really big guy getting in the way, and for that matter are better able to be aware when those droids do pop. Also they can both actually kill the droids as well, which the sentinel can't do and neither really can the scoundrel.

Let's break these abilities down.

 

1. Pulse Cannon: Usable by all troopers not commandos. (Requires that you be in melee--which goes directly against you everything you've said about us being ranged DPS.)

Keep in mind that my primary example for when you need high AoE damage right the hell now, and more AoE damage 30s later is on Kephess for the quickly spawning Trandoshan phase. I always stand on the right for the burn phase on the walker, and our tanks seperate the warrior from the rest as soon as they spawn. That means that I can begin AoEing them right away whereas a vanguard has to get off the walker and walk over before they can start up with pulse cannon. Also, our pulse cannon does more. Have you SEEN how much more damage an assault cannon has over an equal level blaster rifle? We're talking about a 146 max damage difference between campaign assault cannon vs campaign rifle. Same thing goes for Mortar Volley. But even if it didn't (thinking about it, I'm not sure if the ranged damage affects tech attacks) remember that Commando should already get the spot over the vanguard because we're ranged DPS, and for PVE we're BETTER DPS than they are.

2. Mortar Volley = Usable by all troopers, not just commandos. Smuggler Equivalent is Freighter Fly by. Fly by is on a shorter cool down, and is a casted ability, not channeled. What does this mean? That you can use flyby and stack other DPS abilities on top of it (like Sweeping Gunfire.) and your energy regen is better during the casting time because it's not a channel.

For usable by all troopers, see my comments above. In comparison to Freighter Flyby the points you listed as being in it's favor are just as easily construed as points in Mortar Volley's favor. Yes Flyby is casted, but that means if you start from full energy that the smuggler in question regens 0 energy, whereas if the commando starts from full ammo they regen 2/3rds of the cast during the channel. Beyond that, as long as the ammo cost doesn't put you below top tier regen, the regen rates are a wash. Also, while yes you can stack damage because of the delay in the cast and the actual hits of Flyby, the same argument you use below for preferring Thermal Grenade over Sticky now applies to preferring Mortar Volley since Mortar Volley's damage starts up instantly. Also as long as the damage damage is dealt in the same amount of time, it doesn't matter if its dealt evenly over that time with Mortar Volley > Hail of Bolts, or all at once with Flyby > Sweeing gunfire. This isn't PVP. The mobs aren't going to start healing some of it.

3. Sticky Grenade = Useable by all troopers, not just commandos. Smuggler Equivalent is Thermal Grenade. Note the smuggler equivalent is an instant. Some fights make the sticky delay useful, I'll admit, when you have a narrow DPS window (stacking damage for SOA, or KP's Puzzle fight.)

See comments above. Gunnery DPS > Vanguard DPS in PVE. The primary advantage of sticky and thermal is the ability to use them on the move (like if you were far away and now want to move in range to use Pulse Cannon). I'll grant that for all intents and purposes Thermal and Sticky grenade are the same utility, though what's actual damage from Thermal? Is it comprable? Crits from sticky grenade hit pretty hard.

4. Hail of Bolts = Usable by only Commandos. Smuggler equivalent is Sweeping Gunfire

Granted.

5. Plasma Grenade = A terrible commando only DPS ability that is only made useful when combined with Tech Override to remove it's atrocious casting time. (And possibly RP to turn its cost to 0.) So, you were planning on using that TO for Concussive Round, you can't use it for this. Believe me I would *LOVE* for plasma grenade to actually be useful on its own without needing to consume 1 or 2 other CDs to be worth it.

Your point regarding TO is invalid. The fight where you need tons of AoE damage in quick succession is Kephess. The fight where you need an instant cast Concussion Round is the minefield. These are mutually exclusive. I agree that I wish plasma didn't have the long cast time high ammo cost, but on the fight in question you can make it cast instantly for free, so I'm not too worried.

What does this mean? A raid leader can take take a vanguard in our place and lose only 1 AoE, and gain their close range AoEs instead. (And they'll be in range if using Pulse Cannon anyway. Or a gunslinger and stack on equivalent or better AoE. And gain an extra interupt.

As mentioned above, a raid leader could take a vanguard, but commando is better for the DPS spot from a pure DPS perspective. They also lose two AoEs to us (Hail of Bolts and Plasma Grenade, which is useful when it needs to be), gain an interrupt but lose the ability to CC, and are also melee DPS without even bringing the awesome buff that IS inspiration. They can bring a gunslinger but they lose 2 AoEs, one of which is pulse cannon which in terms of damage to targets is better than thermal or sweeping blasters, and is on a 15s cooldown. As for gaining an extra interrupt, my point stands that once you have a tank and a sentinel your need for another interrupt is nil so gaining an extra interrupt isn't worth squat.

Which is exactly my point. Commandos cannot interrupt, so we are disqualified as a class from DPS slots because of this...and we bring nothing unique to the group that could help make up for it. As demonstrated above, everything else we bring is not only shared by other classes, but their abilities are better designed for it.

I have NEVER been disqualified from my DPS slot because of my lack of interrupt, and unless all the other spots in your raid are already taken by commandos neither should you (and really on anything but an HM EC where you're trying to prove a point why would you deliberately fill out all your DPS with one class?)

Let us for the sake of argument say that one spot in a raid is reserved for a Sentinel because of their Inspiration buff and the ability to interrupt. That's one raid spot that everyone but the best available sentinel is disqualified from including of course all other Sentinels.

But from there you need 1-2 armor debuffs, the ability to CC in combat, preferably everything for some of the more annoying trash pulls, though at the very least droids for HM Minefield, and a hefty AoE capability for Trandoshans on Kephess as well as the aforementioned annoying trash pulls. Range is preferred over melee, and high sustained DPS is preferrable to lots of burst but no staying power (since there is no burst phase in the game where a Commando can't guarantee maximum burst since we can always complete our 3 GCD setup before the burn phase starts, or the phase lasts long enough it doesn't matter).

For all of those spots Commando is just as competitive as any other DPS class, and outclasses most of them. Our only truly serious competition for that spot is gunslingers (Sages don't have an armor debuff, literally everyone else is melee DPS). That to me is pretty much a wash and you take the first of either which signs up, all other things being equal.

Would I like an interrupt? You bet I would. I'm not saying I wouldn't. But pretending that our lack of one instantly puts us in the second tier of DPS chosen for raids is just ludicrous on it's face.

I do not care where you stand. If you think this about how much damage we do, then you do not understand what this post is about.

If I understand you correctly, this thread is about how little we bring to the raid, and the fact that pretty much anything we can do, other classes can do as well, and some of those other classes DO get unique things that no one else gets.

MY point is that of all the truly unique things other classes can bring, Inspiration is the only really very good one. The others have situational uses, but rescue is arguably better for a Sage healer, and the defensive shield while nice isn't enough to automatically take a gunslinger over a commando. Since we have things we can do that sentinels can't, I'm not worried about losing my raid spot because of an all sentinel group since I feel all melee raids are more trouble than they're worth. Since the two things that gunslingers can do that we can't aren't terribly useful to the extent that inspiration is (if you don't have a gunslinger for Annihilator Droid, you just kill him anyway and tell your healers to do what they can, and if we concede that you should always have a sentinel in group there goes the usefulness of Gunslinger interrupt). I'll argue again that Commando's better AoE capability is at least as useful as the gunslinger shield in PVE.

Since we will flat out either outdamage the other classes, or bring something the rest of them don't on an individual basis we have enough pros vs cons to all the DPS classes to justify bringing us.

Your point is invalid. Utility that isn't useful doesn't matter (which you'll recall is why you disregard our offheals).

A. We cannot interrupt attacks on important boss fights like the Mine Field in HM EC. (Or LI HM, or Jarg and Sorno, )

On the minefield you have to watch out for the two droid and stun one of them. No need for an interuption. I already did LI HM with a full soldier team (3 commandos), and it didn't cause much problem. As for Jar & Sorno, since you are hitting on Jarg, you don't need an interrupt

B. We do not offer anything unique to the group. Such as:

-- a unique boost like Sentinels (Inspiration)

--a group bubble defense (Gunslingers)

--pulling the player from danger. (Sages)

Big DPS while in heavy armor, you can offtank for a limited time, and you have several useful unique habilities, like the mortar volley which is the only heavy zone damage insta-cast ability in the game. Combined with the lightings, the PG and HoB, that's 4 zoning skills, I don't know a lot of class that have that much zone abilities and trust me in the last fight against képhess it is really usefull. The anti-fufu scan is also pretty usefull while not mandatory. The stun works on anything, beast, human, droids, not every class have this. I could keep on this way a long time. That not abilities you can use to show of with, but combined together, you have enough to sell yourself

an expensive cleanse that won't even remove most debuffs. The cost alone makes them prohibitive

Looool, you must be really blink, our cleanse is the most effective in the game while only costing one ammo. I have a shortcut on my mouse to use it every time I get any physical debuff like fire or poison and I regret every day not havint the same on my sage. Our field aid is clearly our cheated power, I value it as much as the sage bubble (the bubble is better, but proportionnaly costs more mana and you need to cast it preventively while not knowing if you will really take damage).

Big DPS while in heavy armor, you can offtank for a limited time,

No, you really can't.

If a trooper can "survive" being beaten on by a boss, so can any other class.

There is one place where stealth scan is extremely useful and that is EC trash. There are mobs that go stealth that will only be brought out by stealth scan, not aoes. They are a pain in the *** to kill without stealth scan.

I think commandos are very good to have in a raid. On the first boss in ec sm the commando I was dpsing with kept me and him cleansed to leave the healers able to cover the rest of the raid. Now I am not saying it would be wise to stack 4 commandos as the only dps, or even 2 commandos as dps, but they have their uses and they can dish out the dps.

Plus as mentioned earlier, commandos have stellar aoe which is really great for fights with adds like karraga and Kephiss. Especially when you have mortar volley, which knocks normals down keeping them in your teammates aoes.

No, you really can't.

 

If a trooper can "survive" being beaten on by a boss, so can any other class.

Having 61% Damage Reduction for 12s in a pinch is pretty baller actually. Sentinels can do it better than us, but if your tank goes down for some reason we can definitely survive tanking long enough to get them back up. Non-tank shadows are MUCH squishier.

I have both a SS Gunslinger and a Gunnery Commando.

You've made it clear that your point is about utility and not dps, which I understand. But let me first say that with the 4-piece set bonus (free HiB) my dps as a command is spectacular -- I routinely top the MOX parser for our raids, which include a sentinel and another gunslinger.

Now, as a Commando I really really miss the interupt. But I have saved the group's bacon with:

1. Healer died mid fight -- I popped my battle rez and we finished without wiping.

2. In-combat cc on organics. Elite got unstunned and I re-mezzed him.

As a gunslinger I wouldn't be able to do that.

I know that a number of your points were about Denova, and this type of utility is more applicable to EV/KP/etc, but I still, you're going overboard with saying "how outclassed Gunnery is by other DPS roles."

I've not once been passed over as a Commando dps when we had extra dps available for a raid.

My guild was doing SM EC the other night, we stuck 2 commandos (mostly BH gear) on Stormcaller and a Sage+Gunslinger (Mostly BH gear) on Firebrand.

By the time Stormcaller was down to 15% Firebrand was still at nearly 40 and we had to pull both of the commando's off to help out with Firebrand until they evened up.

I dont think the gap is as big as some people are making out.

My guild was doing SM EC the other night, we stuck 2 commandos (mostly BH gear) on Stormcaller and a Sage+Gunslinger (Mostly BH gear) on Firebrand.

 

By the time Stormcaller was down to 15% Firebrand was still at nearly 40 and we had to pull both of the commando's off to help out with Firebrand until they evened up.

 

I dont think the gap is as big as some people are making out.

Actually that's a pretty sizable difference, but his point was never our damage. Like I said I'll stack my damage against anyone else in the game. Gunnery DPS is absolutely sick in PVE. His point is about utility, and everyone else's point should be that that doesn't really matter.

Please allow me to add my thanks for stealth scan when facing Trandosian Stealthkillers. While a Van's talented stealth scan is better, it is much better than a dead healer. I suspect that heals may generate more threat for Stealthkillers than most other mobs. I would certianly design them that way.

As for unique abilities we bring to raids...

I do not think I can say too much about Tech Overide. I cannot think of any raid that would overlook an instant rez. They may not want to see it, but bad things happen and it is best to be prepared. Oh darn I lost one GDC of dps.

Also, support cell/gas is the only non-talented mobile heal in the game. Very useful during Soa transitions, and I suspect similar situations will show up.

I do not think I can say too much about Tech Overide. I cannot think of any raid that would overlook an instant rez

except that tech override doesn't work with emergency medical probe.

as far as utility goes, the OP is right. we don't have a unique item we bring to the table.

that being said, who does? sentinels have inspiration, gunslingers have the giant turtle.

these are cool, but not vital to any raid group. the defense screen is localized, so doesn't really help for twin fights.

inspiration has a limited range, so it also doesn't help for twin fights either. also if that is a necessary thing to get your raid through a fight, your group might have some issues.

and rescue is not nearly as big as you make it out to be. someone might say 'inspiration would be awesome' or 'defense screen would be cool for this fight' but i highly doubt anyone has ever said 'rescue would be really important here, so let's bring this sage dps over any other dps we could bring'

and it's not anything unique to the dps class. a sage healer can do it just as well.

all of that said, we're talking about two skills that, while useful, are not essential. and, as someone mentioned earlier, these are for pure dps classes that literally can't fill any other role. they get 1 skill to make up for the fact that they can only fill one role.

for the sake of discussion though:

what do guardians, shadows, vanguards, and scoundrels have unique to them over everyone else?

and what makes commandos unique in their undesirableness compared to these other 4 classes?