This has started to become an annoying trend among pugs and really has to stop. Lets look at what guard does.

"While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to you."

To break it down. In PvE: "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters."

In pvp: 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to the tank, so long as you remain within 15 meters

At no point does a healer generate enough threat to exceed a tank's threat ceiling on any single target. Nor do healers come remotely close to the threat generation of classes like the Sentinel which lacks any kind of threat reduction ability.

Common mistake, I guarded you so you couldn't pull agro. If an add spawns or is agroed. You as the tank are responsible for picking it up. Otherwise it will go after the healer, no amount of guarding will change that. In simple mechanics. New mob Tank = 0 % threat. Healer casts heal and generates 100 points of threat, 100% threat. Add guard, healer generates 75 points of threat. Tank has 0 points of threat. 75 points of threat is still 100% of all threat on mobs threat table.

The guard did nothing! And the Sentinel just pulled agro, you should get on that.

Stop using guard as an excuse for poor play and start paying attention. Pick up adds and spread your threat around. We're not in pvp so stop guarding me.

/end rant.

I'm likely going to make a post in the guide forum. Try and nip this in the butt before the stupid overwhelms me.

I usually guard the DPS that has the highest amount of HP just because I'm kinda lazy in pugs and don't really feel like analyzing everyone's class/gear and making an informed decision. I'll change my guard if another DPS is ripping threat off me or (usually) attacking the wrong thing a lot.

I'll usually guard the healer if they ask me to just to avoid drama. Although its almost totally impossible to avoid drama in pugs in this game because star wars nerds combined with MMO nerds are typically some of the hardcorest spergers on the internet and lose their cool if something doesn't go exactly their way 100% of the time.

Using guard at all is pretty trivial in flashpoints though. I'm not sure why you are getting all up ins about it.

Here's what I don't get about guard, why is it that every tank is telling me, a dps sage, that the melee is getting the guard? I can understand how they would want to give the melee a damage reduction in the event that the boss does melee range damage but this isnt always the case. I'm also aware that sents theoretically can do more damage than me.

Perhaps they should consider the possibility that I am asking for guard due to the fact that unless someone els, on a better class, is playing the class to it's full potential, which only has happened a few rare times during my ten months of pugging, I'm expecting to pull aggro.

It's especially annoying on EC since I now have to constanly use cloud mind in an attempt to prevent that I'm getting rushed just as toth is about to jump. And it still happens, quite frequently, so I'm not even sure if cloud mind works on them.

Wouldnt it be reasonable that they first look at my gear and ask if I've pulled a lot of aggro in the past? This goes double for SM Operation through GF, where a lot of the group members arent particulary geared. And they still put the guard on the columi sent over the BH/DG Sage. There's been times where I've tanked the Foreman more than the tank(s).

Here's what I don't get about guard, why is it that every tank is telling me, a dps sage, that the melee is getting the guard? I can understand how they would want to give the melee a damage reduction in the event that the boss does melee range damage but this isnt always the case. I'm also aware that sents theoretically can do more damage than me.

Perhaps they should consider the possibility that I am asking for guard due to the fact that unless someone els, on a better class, is playing the class to it's full potential, which only has happened a few rare times during my ten months of pugging, I'm expecting to pull aggro.

It's especially annoying on EC since I now have to constanly use cloud in an attempt to prevent that I'm getting rushed just as toth is about to jump. And it still happens, quite frequently, so I'm not even sure if cloud mind works on them.

 

Wouldnt it be reasonable that they first look at my gear and ask if I've pulled a lot of aggro in the past?

Most of the time it's a range issue, you might out range the effect which cancels the whole thing out. Another thing to consider is the danger posed by the two mob types. A melee class can get killed a lot faster due to closer proximity to melee and ranged mobs. A ranged dpser only has to worry about ranged mobs. Anything that is melee can be picked up before it gets to you.

That being said, I'll throw a guard on a dps sage if I notice a high dps / threat output. I'm not above using it on ranged. So long as they're capable of pulling threat off anything I'm tanking.

I'm not entirely update with threat mechanics but ranged threat might have a higher threshold. Assuming they're using WoW mechanics. Melee have to exceed 110% tank's threat to pull agro, ranged have to pull 125%.

This has started to become an annoying trend among pugs and really has to stop. Lets look at what guard does.

 

"While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to you."

 

To break it down. In PvE: "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters."

 

In pvp: 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to the tank, so long as you remain within 15 meters

 

At no point does a healer generate enough threat to exceed a tank's threat ceiling on any single target. Nor do healers come remotely close to the threat generation of classes like the Sentinel which lacks any kind of threat reduction ability.

 

Common mistake, I guarded you so you couldn't pull agro. If an add spawns or is agroed. You as the tank are responsible for picking it up. Otherwise it will go after the healer, no amount of guarding will change that. In simple mechanics. New mob Tank = 0 % threat. Healer casts heal and generates 100 points of threat, 100% threat. Add guard, healer generates 75 points of threat. Tank has 0 points of threat. 75 points of threat is still 100% of all threat on mobs threat table.

 

The guard did nothing! And the Sentinel just pulled agro, you should get on that.

 

Stop using guard as an excuse for poor play and start paying attention. Pick up adds and spread your threat around. We're not in pvp so stop guarding me.

 

/end rant.

 

I'm likely going to make a post in the guide forum. Try and nip this in the butt before the stupid overwhelms me.

"50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to you"

Im sure you didnt forget that...

"50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to you"

 

Im sure you didnt forget that...

I most certainly didn't. However, I'm currently on the talking about flashpoints which are PvE encounters. Flash points have a deficiency of enemy players.

Stop using guard as an excuse for poor play and start paying attention. Pick up adds and spread your threat around. We're not in pvp so stop guarding me.

Very true. You can even let that good dps pick up adds and it is win win. That said there are some tanks who can't manage adds and then I appreciate guard(Boarding party for example is an instance where I tank more mobs than most tanks).

_Sentinel has threat reduction skill.

_Threat reduction from guard works within 30m, no idea if it works beyond 30m.

_Sentinel has threat reduction skill.

_Threat reduction from guard works within 30m, no idea if it works beyond 30m.

Good to know. Though I'll have to test the range aspect. I was working with second hand information on the sentinel AC. Haven't had a chance to try one out yet.

Mobs that arn't being attacked by a DPS or tank (aoe or single target) will usually get agroed by the healer.

Healer their agro generation is spread over all mobs in the fight.

thus guarding a healer in a FP with alot of trash is a good idea

_Sentinel has threat reduction skill.

_Threat reduction from guard works within 30m, no idea if it works beyond 30m.

Wrong, threat reduction from guard works within 15m, at 16m theres no guard. And answering to the sage above, guarding melee is usually the way to go, melee wil be side by side with tank almost all time, while a sage should be at max range to avoid nasty AoE, also most of the bosses have cleave-like abilities that with some pug-bad-possitioning issues increases the dmg taken by melee, add to it that most melee classes has higher burst than ranged ones, the threat reduction may come handy for that.

In short, a melee dps will get more use of guarding than a ranged dps, and yes, agree with OP, healer should not get guard, if healer gets killed by adds its a bad tanking issue.

Only exception to the melee over ranged rule would be huge differences on gearing.

/shrug

In guild im in, Im one of 2 main flashpoint/ops healers and both healers can grab agro with a single big heal as our stats are optimized to heal large normal and huge when we crit.

No idea what type of healers OP runs with that he claims his healers never steal agro but DPSers do.

Simply not true.

Now in pvp I agree guarding a healer silly unless your going to stay by the healer (not many do and healers required to be so mobile they constantly runing from spot to spot being out of range of the guard).

But in a flash point,

If the tank is losing agro, there is a problem and guard has nothing to do with it

If the DPSers are stealing agro from healer (if the tankl loses agro), the healer is not healing for large numbers and that will be a issue eventually

Guard on Healer to lessen damage and reduce threat is mandatory in hard mode flashpoints and beyond

A good healer in a hard mode or ops will generate a ton of threat that dpsers dont normally come close to.

Damage threat gain and Healing threat gain are on two vastly different tables.

So if the tank losses his/her agro on mob, healers are the primary target normally.

Anything that lessens threat on a healer freeing them up to you know....HEAL....is a good thing.

/shrug

 

In guild im in, Im one of 2 main flashpoint/ops healers and both healers can grab agro with a single big heal as our stats are optimized to heal large normal and huge when we crit.

 

No idea what type of healers OP runs with that he claims his healers never steal agro but DPSers do.

 

Simply not true.

 

Now in pvp I agree guarding a healer silly unless your going to stay by the healer (not many do and healers required to be so mobile they constantly runing from spot to spot being out of range of the guard).

 

But in a flash point,

If the tank is losing agro, there is a problem and guard has nothing to do with it

If the DPSers are stealing agro from healer (if the tankl loses agro), the healer is not healing for large numbers and that will be a issue eventually

 

Guard on Healer to lessen damage and reduce threat is mandatory in hard mode flashpoints and beyond

 

A good healer in a hard mode or ops will generate a ton of threat that dpsers dont normally come close to.

Damage threat gain and Healing threat gain are on two vastly different tables.

So if the tank losses his/her agro on mob, healers are the primary target normally.

 

Anything that lessens threat on a healer freeing them up to you know....HEAL....is a good thing.

I heal with a sage and soon a commando. I also tank with a guardian and vanguard. I have several years experience aoe tanking in WoW and apply the same experience to TOR. The mechanics are nearly identical so the practice remains relatively the same.

When I'm tanking there will be a brief moment that a healer will get hit from one or two stray shots until such time that I am able to attack the mobs. Guarding the healer will not change this fact. Attacking mobs will. At no point does a healer pull agro from me once I have established threat on all mobs in the group.

Wrong, threat reduction from guard works within 15m, at 16m theres no guard.

I don't think so.

While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transferred back to you. Requires Soresu Form.

I don't know about this. When I heal in pugs, I find plenty of bad groups where the tank focuses on one enemy at a time, and one or both of the dps decide to help the tank burn down the target with the most health, leaving everything alive as long as possible. That leaves all the trash to attack the healer since no one else is engaging it. However, on the possibility that someone accidentally hits the trash (maybe with an area attack on the tank's target), that threat reduction on the healer might help.

In addition, since the healer and the tank are the main ones taking damage, the damage reduction is helpful on the healer. If the dps manage to pick up enough aggro to take a hit from the healer, great. The healer could use a break from being the off tank.

Also, that 25% threat reduction actually hurts when "go fast" dps engage instead of the tank. Without threat reduction, maybe the dps will take an extra hit before all the aggro is back on the healer.

So ... you may be overestimating the level of pug play. Shield on healer is fine for pug FPs.

In a flashpoint, if I do not know who the dpsers are, I will first use my guard to protect the healer.

If there is a dpser pulling an aggro, I will automatically switch to him and keep it that way.

The reason why am I doing that is many DPSers are really lazy people and pressing random spells to look cool, because, for them, that is just a flashpoint. Not many play their class to full potential. That is why I think, if something goes wrong, the best is to protect the healer who has to be 'there' 99% of the time while dps people do not have and I cannot prove they are just pressing one spell.

I remember, it was a second time for me to tank on my assassin alt, when other assassin told me I should guard him, not a healer. After I asked him is he pulling aggro and he answered he is not, I explained if I notice I will guard him. That, however, NEVER happened and he went afk after we pulled one pack, just before the last Foundy boss, Darth Revan.

That is how I do it. I might be wrong and maybe it is not the best approach but for me it works fine.

Now, that is the reason why some people - me - will always guard the healer first until DPSers prove otherwise. (In FP, ofc)

It's more situational than you make out in the OP. If your tank is not mixing it up depending on the pull then that's a deficiency.

DPS should not get guard 100% of the time, just as healers shouldn't either. Just as the post above this one has stated.

I don't know about this. When I heal in pugs, I find plenty of bad groups where the tank focuses on one enemy at a time, and one or both of the dps decide to help the tank burn down the target with the most health, leaving everything alive as long as possible. That leaves all the trash to attack the healer since no one else is engaging it. However, on the possibility that someone accidentally hits the trash (maybe with an area attack on the tank's target), that threat reduction on the healer might help.

 

In addition, since the healer and the tank are the main ones taking damage, the damage reduction is helpful on the healer. If the dps manage to pick up enough aggro to take a hit from the healer, great. The healer could use a break from being the off tank.

 

Also, that 25% threat reduction actually hurts when "go fast" dps engage instead of the tank. Without threat reduction, maybe the dps will take an extra hit before all the aggro is back on the healer.

 

So ... you may be overestimating the level of pug play. Shield on healer is fine for pug FPs.

You're suggesting that ignorance is a perfectly acceptable excuse for incompetence. The problem is, its no longer about who is receiving guard but rather with people that have a major case of tunnel vision, are lazy or just don't care.

I don't consider myself to be the perfect tank or healer by any stretch of the imagination though I certainly try to cover all of the bases and ensure the best possible run.

I don't believe it's unrealistic to hope that people will give something a decent short. However, more often than not, people will put the least amount of effort in and use what ever poor man's crutch they can to enable their continued poor performance.

I realize that I'm essentially targeting one small aspect of the greater problem.

I guard the healer in case they pick up threat, I use guard to minimise the loss of health to the healer. After all i find it more important minimising damage the healer takes while i grab the threat from the enemy that has decided to attack him.

I actually can't believe people are complaining about this..

Mobs that arn't being attacked by a DPS or tank (aoe or single target) will usually get agroed by the healer.

Healer their agro generation is spread over all mobs in the fight.

thus guarding a healer in a FP with alot of trash is a good idea

Not really, you shouldn't gaurd the healer as the dps should kill anything even thinking about attacking the healer instead of tunnel visioning. Fact is gaurding your highest dps saves a lot of hassle with pulling threat, melee especially.

Even if a healer for some reason pulls threat to to bad tank aggro control as long as it isnt 2-3 silvers they can heal through the hits while the tank reestablishes aggro control, but tank shouldn't be focusing in on whacking 1 mob at a time either like I see most doing.

I guard the healer in case they pick up threat, I use guard to minimise the loss of health to the healer. After all i find it more important minimising damage the healer takes while i grab the threat from the enemy that has decided to attack him.

 

I actually can't believe people are complaining about this..

You don't intercept dmg in PvE, in the long run of a FP you are making it harder for a healer to heal your dps because they: 1) Pull Aggro and take hits 2) Get hit by an AoE and dont have the 5% reduction

I heal and I can tell you right now I never pull aggro from a decent tank who is managing aggro on more than 1 mob correctly, and if I do I rather heal myself than heal 2 dps + tank. We healers have Cc to deal with those 1-2 mobs who wanna hug us where the dps either doesn't or wont use it.

I usually guard the DPS that has the highest amount of HP just because I'm kinda lazy in pugs and don't really feel like analyzing everyone's class/gear and making an informed decision. I'll change my guard if another DPS is ripping threat off me or (usually) attacking the wrong thing a lot.

 

I'll usually guard the healer if they ask me to just to avoid drama.

Same goes for me.

I've only ever encountered one healer who specifically asked for a guard, so I switched it due to the drama concern.

If the healer has aggro it's usually either because I haven't picked up that mob yet or because I'm doing it wrong.

Only semi-related:

When it comes to healers having aggro from weak mobs, however, I put at least half the blame on the DPS. When I DPS I generally make it a point to kill the weakest enemies first, especially if they're healers, whether or not the tank has aggro on them. It takes a few seconds to kill them and will save a lot more grief than a gold or silver dying a few seconds faster. Then again, as a DPS I generally make a point to protect the healer in case the tank missed something or is busy elsewhere just then. In turn, I've typically seen the healers make it a point to keep me alive.

Yeah, DPS who think they're doing the world a favor if they do more than pour damage on the biggest enemy are a bit of a peeve.

You don't intercept dmg in PvE, in the long run of a FP you are making it harder for a healer to heal your dps because they: 1) Pull Aggro and take hits 2) Get hit by an AoE and dont have the 5% reduction

 

I heal and I can tell you right now I never pull aggro from a decent tank who is managing aggro on more than 1 mob correctly, and if I do I rather heal myself than heal 2 dps + tank. We healers have Cc to deal with those 1-2 mobs who wanna hug us where the dps either doesn't or wont use it.

Besides, Tank + 2 DPS HP pool is ca. 65k HP now and it is not like tank has to have aggro 100% of time, everyone can take bits of damage and as group move faster.

I do not know whether melee needs more threat than ranged over tank level to aggro mob but when I aggro as dps I pop defensive CD and wait few seconds for tank to taunt back and only then drop threat. If e.g. I need 110% threat to aggro then tank when taunting back gets another 10% more, effectively raising his threat by 21% only with taunt. Then I drop threat and go far below new threat level.

I do not know whether melee needs more threat than ranged over tank level.....

Ive found that the closer to the mob the more aggro you SEEM to accrue. Whether or not this is fact I couldnt say.

Now if a range is over the melee dps's level then tank should decide but at level 50 melee tends to get gaurd due to the vicinity.

But as a healer I find If I stand too close to the fight I draw more aggro so I stay as far away as I can to be comfortable.