A level 50 PvP bracket simply will not save the PvP in this game.

 

There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. The only possible reason for Expertise to exist in this game is to screw over people who cant grind it first.

 

Even if you did have a 50's only bracket, you'd be creating more problems than you're fixing. Aside from all the obvious queue time issues, the 50's bracket will suffer from the exact same problems we have now; the bracket will divided up into New 50's and Old 50's, ie. people who dont have their 10% Expertise bonus yet, and those that do.

 

But you might say, "Everyone will become an Old 50 eventually." and yes, they might. But then what would be the point in everyone having the same 10% Expertise bonus, when all it's going to do is cancel out everyone elses 10% Expertise bonus. The only outside issue there is that healing will still be 10% stronger, but if you wanted that why wouldn't you just lower the Trauma debuff by 10%?

 

It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand what anyone was thinking when they thought putting Expertise into the game would be a good idea.

 

 

Removing the stat doesn't mean PvP Gear has to go, the point of PvP Gear/Experience/Credits in the first place is so that people who want an alternative to PvE can still progress. There all kinds of stats in this game that mean you could make all kinds of PvP Gear Sets, whether they are Purple or Mods, so people can look however they want to, or however you want them to look, and they can mix and match all these different pieces of gear to whatever their hearts desire. To give you an idea of the combinations of gear that could be possible:

 

- Primary Stat

- Endurance

 

• Crit Rating
  
• Surge
  
• Alacrity
  
• Power
  

 

 

Now reverse the Primary Stat and Endurance, so that Endurance is the bigger of the two and look how much choice you have... something for everyone, even. Now when you're 50 and you arent bolstered anymore, you can decide which stat you want more of, in return for lower stats on other stuff, or you can even decide to have an equal balance.

 

A crazy thing, having a choice, isn't it? Like choosing to have Fun over Frustration. Or choosing to resubscribe... or perhaps not.

 

 

 

I'm not even mad.

Hello everyone,

 

The previous version of this thread exceeded our threshold for maximum thread length, so we have recreated it here to continue the conversation!

 

As a reminder to everyone, please remember the following:

 

• Insults - Please do not resort to or use them in any way in your posts. Posts should be productive, not destructive.
  
• Trolling - Please do not post messages that are purposefully designed to provoke, antagonize, or otherwise elicit a negative emotional response.
  
• Agree to Disagree - Be respectful of others' viewpoints even if they are opposite of your own. Discuss disagreements constructively.
  
• Flag, Don't Fight - Utilize the Flag Post feature to report possible rules violations, rather than responding to or fighting them.
  

 

Our community's Rules of Conduct can be found here.

 

Thanks!

Just put the expertise stat on PvE gear for PvE encounters only.

expertise is fine, without it people would just gear from operations and have full tier 2 in a day

 

^ what happened to me (2 NM operations and had full columni)

 

either way, geared people are going to destroy fresh 50's

Edited February 3, 2012 by LanceUpercutt

Solution: Ranked warzones.

Roll face too much? Play other teams who roll face. Win.

Yes, this will have to occur AFTER cross-server warzones, but that's fine. It'll balance it out

Pyro Merc hits 50 and joins WZ, get destroyed 1 on 1 in six seconds flat. The expertise stat, it isn't working. Edited February 4, 2012 by ZingFreelancer

Pyro Merc hits 50 and joins WZ, get destroyed 1 on 1 in six seconds flat. The expertise stat, it isn't working.

 

Do you think that won't happen without expertise? Full raid gear have better stats than pvp gear. It will be the same. Full raid gear just can't destroy a full pvp geared player because expertise also gives mitigation.

I agree with this thread, because it's proven effective by EA Mythic it self.

 

Dark Age of Camelot is a prime example of this.

 

PvP Oriented players are required to complete or buy PVE items to be competitive in PvP.

 

PvP oriented players are required to gain RR (valor) to be efficient in PvP.

 

The only issue I see is that none of the Tier 2 is Trade-able, but it's also easily attained. Taking Expertise out of this game entirely will promote players to see both sides of the game, not just only PvP or only PvE. The Elite PvP'ers will also be the ones raiding. This also promotes the hardcore players as well as the casual players since Tier 2 armor is merely 1-2% overall stats behind Tier3.

Ya sure go for it but first you need to make the pvp gear equal to the pve gear when expertise is removed.

 

 

The only issue I see is that none of the Tier 2 is Trade-able, but it's also easily attained. Taking Expertise out of this game entirely will promote players to see both sides of the game, not just only PvP or only PvE. The Elite PvP'ers will also be the ones raiding. This also promotes the hardcore players as well as the casual players since Tier 2 armor is merely 1-2% overall stats behind Tier3.

Just no i could apply the same logic that you must pvp to be the best pve:r how fun is that ? Some critical piece of gear is only attainable from pvp so you must reach valor lets say 50 before you can get max out of your dps in pve encounter.

Edited February 4, 2012 by hgjwz

NO expertise is fine l2p. But seriously, It's fine. I dont see where u get this stuff from. From my experience things are quite balanced in warzones. Just farm more and you'll get the same gear everyone else has ( cuz im guessing u dont have any and thats why you are here complaining).

 

 

Isnt that what everyone do here?

 

Expertise is fine. End of story.

The system is fine as it is. The idea behind having a full set of gear (pve or pvp) is reward for time spent in that particular game style.

 

Stick at it. Don't encourage this game to have a welfare epic loot system like other kung fu PG13 MMOs.

I agree with this thread, because it's proven effective by EA Mythic it self.

 

Dark Age of Camelot is a prime example of this.

 

PvP Oriented players are required to complete or buy PVE items to be competitive in PvP.

 

PvP oriented players are required to gain RR (valor) to be efficient in PvP.

 

The only issue I see is that none of the Tier 2 is Trade-able, but it's also easily attained. Taking Expertise out of this game entirely will promote players to see both sides of the game, not just only PvP or only PvE. The Elite PvP'ers will also be the ones raiding. This also promotes the hardcore players as well as the casual players since Tier 2 armor is merely 1-2% overall stats behind Tier3.

 

Daoc is a pvp MMO. SWTOR priorities pve or raiding more which is why there is expertise.

Leave the expertise system alone please.

Expertise is a poorly designed mechanic that just brings to mind a bit of laziness and lack of creativity on the developer's part. Instead of really trying to fix the issue, they create a massive power imbalance -- in what should be the most balanced part of the game.

 

This stat is and has always been a terrible implementation -- and I have hated it since the first time I experienced it, in the Burning Crusade.

 

While my ideal vision of PvP would be to make it largely less reliant on gear (as this makes it easier to balance), there are also other things that can be done -- and a bogus stat that creates a power gap between players is not one of them.

 

TL;DR PART

I would even argue to reversing the stat and putting it on PvE gear. Players obviously need the gear anyway to progress into the harder raids.

 

Since the real issue at hand is to prevent PvE players from staying competitive in PvP with purely raid gear...

 

Why not get rid of the PvP stat -> create a stat on raiding gear, that reduces the damage they do to other players, yet increases the damage they do to boss mobs?

You don't want expertise? So zero skill no life PvErs can join and destroy everything (inluding casuals cause this is why this is about)?

No thanks. Expertise is there to separate PvE and PvP. If you can't see the logic about it then I feel sorry for you.

I'd be fine with no expertise on my PvP gear, under a few conditions;

 

a. stat and gear progression that mirrors equivalent PvE gears

b. set bonuses that mirror PvE set stat bonuses, as is the 2 piece bonus on the the Operative Enforcer sets is better on the PvE version then the PvP version (10% more damage on backstab > +1 second on Evasion and +5 seconds on Infiltrate)

c. access to top tier crafting materials that have yet to make it to PvP vendors for some erroneous reason, I really shouldn't have to run heroics to craft Rakata Stims or I should be able to craft Champion Stims instead

d. the best gear in the game should be available via PvP, as playing versus a computer is easier then playing against other human beings

Edited February 4, 2012 by deltaminus

Expertise is a poorly designed mechanic that just brings to mind a bit of laziness and lack of creativity on the developer's part. Instead of really trying to fix the issue, they create a massive power imbalance -- in what should be the most balanced part of the game.

 

This stat is and has always been a terrible implementation -- and I have hated it since the first time I experienced it, in the Burning Crusade.

 

While my ideal vision of PvP would be to make it largely less reliant on gear (as this makes it easier to balance), there are also other things that can be done -- and a bogus stat that creates a power gap between players is not one of them.

 

TL;DR PART

I would even argue to reversing the stat and putting it on PvE gear. Players obviously need the gear anyway to progress into the harder raids.

 

Since the real issue at hand is to prevent PvE players from staying competitive in PvP with purely raid gear...

 

Why not get rid of the PvP stat -> create a stat on raiding gear, that reduces the damage they do to other players, yet increases the damage they do to boss mobs?

 

Shut up. Expertise is fine.

I agree that in the current system Expertise is a problem. Here is how it works out in various scenarios.

 

Expertise gives you bonus damage vs players, bonus damage reduction vs players and bonus healing received.

Trauma debuff lowers healing received by 30% when you engage in any pvp combat.

 

Fresh 50 (0% expertise)

Champion Geared 50 (~12% expertise)

 

As you can see a champion geared 50 negates 12% of the 30% healing debuff so they only suffer 18% healing reduction, these people are much easier to heal.

 

There is a 20-24% spread between a fresh 50 and a Champion, Battlemaster is even worse. By spread I mean fresh 50 has an attack that hits for 2000 base. This gets reduced by 12% for the Champion PVPer down to 1760 damage. That Champion player uses the same attack back for 2000 base. It gets increased by 12% for 2240 damage. Now you can obviously see even if both players had the same HP totals (which they likely wont since pvp gear has more endurance on it as well) That the difference between the same class fighting each other is pretty one sided barring any skill differences.

 

Now once everyone has pvp gear the whole idea becomes moot. Your base ability for 2000 gets buffed by 12% then their pvp gear reduces it by 12% and you are back to no bonus. The only thing pvp gear does when you fight an equally geared opponent is increase your healing received to counter act the Trauma debuff somewhat.

 

I think the entire Expertise stat is only there to make people with the gear far better than people without but once everyone has the gear they mind as well not have the gear at all.

 

It would be the same as two people in PVE gear fighting.

 

I Agree that Expertise serves no good purpose but to make it hard for fresh 50s to compete with people who have spent time gathering the gear. It gives unfair advantage only up to the point when everyone else gets gear.

Expertise is fine.

 

L2P issue for anyone STILL crying about this topic. It's been going on since the game came out and it's the same people still complaining about this. They should have the gear by now.

I'd be fine with no expertise on my PvP gear, under a few conditions;

 

a. stat and gear progression that mirrors equivalent PvE gears

b. set bonuses that mirror PvE set stat bonuses, as is the 2 piece bonus on the the Operative Enforcer sets is better on the PvE version then the PvP version (10% more damage on backstab > +1 second on Evasion and +5 seconds on Infiltrate)

c. access to top tier crafting materials that have yet to make it to PvP vendors for some erroneous reason, I really shouldn't have to run heroics to craft Rakata Stims or I should be able to craft Champion Stims instead

d. the best gear in the game should be available via PvP, as playing versus a computer is easier then playing against other human beings

 

Thats a pretty good list although the last one doesn't have to be like that.

Expertise is OK. If you want to PvP - do it and obtain your pvp gear with expertise.

 

What? You don't like being roflstomped in WZ at first? So do I don't like doing some normals or easy HMs - I want to jump to HM Ops, but well noone invites me cos I have no PvE gear. Then why you want to jump in WZs and be right on par?

 

It's obvious that if gear is the same PvErs will whine all over the forums that they need to cooperate and work hard and such but I just do WZ pugs and get the same gear. Then 2 there are two cases:

1) BW makes PvP gear worse - HELLO RAIDING INSTEAD OF PVP

2) BW makes PvP gear obtained in timed manner like Arena gear in WoW - HELLO NO LIFE cos the quickest way to gear would be DOING BOTH PvP and Ops.

Expertise is a poorly designed mechanic that just brings to mind a bit of laziness and lack of creativity on the developer's part. Instead of really trying to fix the issue, they create a massive power imbalance -- in what should be the most balanced part of the game.

 

This stat is and has always been a terrible implementation -- and I have hated it since the first time I experienced it, in the Burning Crusade.

 

While my ideal vision of PvP would be to make it largely less reliant on gear (as this makes it easier to balance), there are also other things that can be done -- and a bogus stat that creates a power gap between players is not one of them.

 

TL;DR PART

I would even argue to reversing the stat and putting it on PvE gear. Players obviously need the gear anyway to progress into the harder raids.

 

Since the real issue at hand is to prevent PvE players from staying competitive in PvP with purely raid gear...

 

Why not get rid of the PvP stat -> create a stat on raiding gear, that reduces the damage they do to other players, yet increases the damage they do to boss mobs?

 

Your assumptions are flawed. Expertise main purpose isn't to keep raiders from owning pvpers. That is just a bonus. It is there so that pvpers won't skip content and go to the hardest dungeons using pvp gear. In essence, raiders don't want to pvp to acquire gear in order to raid and they don't want pvpers to be able to have the best items that they worked hard for.

 

Why not get rid of the PvP stat -> create a stat on raiding gear, that reduces the damage they do to other players, yet increases the damage they do to boss mobs?

 

It is because the psychology is reversed. People play MMO to make their characters stronger through levels, armor and weapons. People want to keep improving their chars, increasing their stats, and etc. Decreasing damage through a stat is the reversed. People will whine about that.

 

It is easier to think of it this way. Bioware thinks like this. People will pay $15 a month to see their chars improve and be able to do new content. They don't pay $15 a month to have their chars decrease in damage or have a penalty due to a stat.

Expertise might work better if it was single minded. Instead of it giving bonus to damage done, damage reduction and healing received. It should just give you damage reduction vs players. This would make you tougher but not make you do more damage to people without gear, this would close the gap somewhat.

I'd be fine with no expertise on my PvP gear, under a few conditions;

 

a. stat and gear progression that mirrors equivalent PvE gears

b. set bonuses that mirror PvE set stat bonuses, as is the 2 piece bonus on the the Operative Enforcer sets is better on the PvE version then the PvP version (10% more damage on backstab > +1 second on Evasion and +5 seconds on Infiltrate)

c. access to top tier crafting materials that have yet to make it to PvP vendors for some erroneous reason, I really shouldn't have to run heroics to craft Rakata Stims or I should be able to craft Champion Stims instead

d. the best gear in the game should be available via PvP, as playing versus a computer is easier then playing against other human beings

 

It will never happen though. Raiders will whine that it is so easy to get gear through pvp that there is no point in raiding.

Thats a pretty good list although the last one doesn't have to be like that.

 

Well if PvE players want the best of both worlds for investing most of their time into PvE, it should go both ways.