Valid feedback, and something we continue to debate internally. When we talk about separating the playing population by hard lines, there are always 2 main concerns that often compete directly against each other: A)Can the players inside that bracket reasonably compete against each other, and B)Are there enough players in the bracket to keep wait times reasonably small.

 

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations (often because they've gotten a really important ability from a skill tree) and our data of who actually queues into Warzones has shown that we've got a good pool on each side of that break. We continue to analyze who is playing, however, so certainly if we ever feel like a particular PvP bracket is being starved we should make changes to it. Unfortunately, that's what we believe would happen with a 50 - 54 bracket. It might be populated initially, but would quickly become empty as players hit 55 and for everyone following the initial surge of levelers there would significantly increased wait times to get into PvP.

 

A number of players are concerned, reasonably I think, about the power differential between a fresh level 30 player and a current 50 player in augmented EWH gear being inside the same bracket. Our new bolster system should make those players reasonably competitive statistically, both with compensation for the lower items as well as some compensation for having fewer skill points/abilities (if you are lower level). Once we get this bolster bug fixed up, everyone should be able to see the kind of stats you are getting from the bolster and should give everyone a better basis for discussion.

Does bolster work the same in the 55 bracket then? Also, since you are obviously going to have "bolster cutoffs", I don't see how a level 30 is going to be able to match a 54 in the current build on the PTS. I have examined the bolstering affect(not using the "bug") at level 55 when I was wearing legacy gear with level 35 purples, and it won't tread water to current 50's, let alone LVL 54. There really needs to be some transparency on this because I feel this is a tipping point for the PVP side. We need to get this right...

Can I also make another suggestion? On your level 55 PvP gear, the armor rating needs to match the new PvE gear armor ratings, especially if Bolster will affect anyone not wearing PVP gear. If I am mistaken on this, some insight would be helpful.

One last thing, thanks for chiming in... I think all the "regulars" here really needed some TLC whether it is actual game changes or just discussions from the Dev staff. We now are shedding our feelings of being alienated....:)

the 10-29 bracket will be ill-suited to prepare you for the 30-54 bracket (kiddie pool is very shallow, grown up one is too deep.)

Just to add my thought here, I don't think a pool that people eventually level out of is bad wrt the "kiddie/grown-up" thing. The problem is when a pool is stagnant by having people staying in it indefinitely. In WAR, things got so bad through the lack of a bolster system and an escalating gear ladder that it drove me into suggesting retiring characters at some point to generate churn. Anyway, people who are good at PvP and who play it a lot, or at least frequently, will go through their brackets relatively quickly (with 30-54 potentially taking a few weeks for the more casual players, and far longer for real casuals), so that "excessively good" players will hopefully be more of a novelty than a nuisance.

I for one find the 10–49 bracket right now far more fun than the 50 pool, even when I was running my 20-something against decked out late-40s freak groups, and a good place to learn about the basics of your character. With the upcoming 30–54, some people may not get to learn about their capstone skills too much before that, but it has a very good chance of presenting a better progression than the current "what the f▇▇▊ just happened" shellshock you inevitably get when entering your first level 50 warzone.

In that vein, IMO free2play players should get a few more warzones on their weekly allowance

Does bolster work the same in the 55 bracket then? Also, since you are obviously going to have "bolster cutoffs", I don't see how a level 30 is going to be able to match a 54 in the current build on the PTS. I have examined the bolstering affect(not using the "bug") at level 55 when I was wearing legacy gear with level 35 purples, and it won't tread water to current 50's, let alone LVL 54. There really needs to be some transparency on this because I feel this is a tipping point for the PVP side. We need to get this right...

 

Can I also make another suggestion? On your level 55 PvP gear, the armor rating needs to match the new PvE gear armor ratings, especially if Bolster will affect anyone not wearing PVP gear. If I am mistaken on this, some insight would be helpful.

 

One last thing, thanks for chiming in... I think all the "regulars" here really needed some TLC whether it is actual game changes or just discussions from the Dev staff. We now are shedding our feelings of being alienated....:)

Ya, the bolster will work for level 55s as well, if they are under geared. Could you post the stats on what you are seeing on PTS for your guy wearing legacy gear (or send the information to CommunitySupport@swtor.com, subject: ATTN Rob Hinkle, if you don't want to dirty up the thread). It certainly is the intention that your 55 wearing level 35 gear should get bolstered back up. To give everyone an idea (and BIG caveat here, this number is still in flux), but currently I would expect the new 55 bolster to be getting people into gear right around (statistically) non-augmented EWH.

This is biowares biggest FAIL idea yet. You think people cry to much aboot premades now, wait until this goes live. (I will be joining the masses & grouping for normals now) Then think aboot the people who reach level 55 first. I mean there might not even be enough people to run a warzone. The 55 queue could be dead for a week or more depending on how fast people level.

Jenna'syyde

You need to give free access to the F2P people for at least the 10-29 bracket. That will encourage more PVP play there at that level and grant more interest for them to sub in for the later tiers.

I agree 100%.

This bracket needs to be the draw for pvp so players can actually practice and learn and get better before entering the higher tiers. A handful of games per week is not enough for players to actually learn and adapt to all the WZs, at 5 games a week, you may not even see a particular zone at all so will have very little practice time on many maps.

If not unrestricted access, I would certainly like to see 5 games a DAY at the very least in this bracket- not per week.

Valid feedback, and something we continue to debate internally. When we talk about separating the playing population by hard lines, there are always 2 main concerns that often compete directly against each other: A)Can the players inside that bracket reasonably compete against each other, and B)Are there enough players in the bracket to keep wait times reasonably small.

 

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations (often because they've gotten a really important ability from a skill tree) and our data of who actually queues into Warzones has shown that we've got a good pool on each side of that break. We continue to analyze who is playing, however, so certainly if we ever feel like a particular PvP bracket is being starved we should make changes to it. Unfortunately, that's what we believe would happen with a 50 - 54 bracket. It might be populated initially, but would quickly become empty as players hit 55 and for everyone following the initial surge of levelers there would significantly increased wait times to get into PvP.

 

A number of players are concerned, reasonably I think, about the power differential between a fresh level 30 player and a current 50 player in augmented EWH gear being inside the same bracket. Our new bolster system should make those players reasonably competitive statistically, both with compensation for the lower items as well as some compensation for having fewer skill points/abilities (if you are lower level). Once we get this bolster bug fixed up, everyone should be able to see the kind of stats you are getting from the bolster and should give everyone a better basis for discussion.

I want to thank you for being so communicative on this, I think I speak for most of the community if I say that you guys should stick with this refreshing change.

A)Can the players inside that bracket reasonably compete against each other, and

B)Are there enough players in the bracket to keep wait times reasonably small.

I'm not certain that A is true when you compare skiilset + talent point pool of a level 30 char compared to a lvl 50-54.

My conern pertains to your initial criteria for setting the break point of the brackets at level 30.

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations (often because they've gotten a really important ability from a skill tree)

I'm thinking you developers would profit alot if you gathered some kind of measureable intel on what the playerbase would feel like a good breaking point and I hope you continue monitoring this thread since I feel it hasn't devolved into the usual mess of insults and hate that tend to clog the interwebz.

Maybe you should do an official poll on the forums, letting us vote on where the break point should be according to us, the playerbase?

I'm thinking you need 31 points in your talent pool before you get to compete in the same bracket as the lvl 50-54 people, so my vote is 10-39 and 40-54 (main reason is the fact some classes really really need the 31 point talent to compete)

I'm withholding further inquiries towards the bolster system until I've had the chance to test it myself.

Valid feedback, and something we continue to debate internally. When we talk about separating the playing population by hard lines, there are always 2 main concerns that often compete directly against each other: A)Can the players inside that bracket reasonably compete against each other, and B)Are there enough players in the bracket to keep wait times reasonably small.

 

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations (often because they've gotten a really important ability from a skill tree) and our data of who actually queues into Warzones has shown that we've got a good pool on each side of that break. We continue to analyze who is playing, however, so certainly if we ever feel like a particular PvP bracket is being starved we should make changes to it. Unfortunately, that's what we believe would happen with a 50 - 54 bracket. It might be populated initially, but would quickly become empty as players hit 55 and for everyone following the initial surge of levelers there would significantly increased wait times to get into PvP.

 

A number of players are concerned, reasonably I think, about the power differential between a fresh level 30 player and a current 50 player in augmented EWH gear being inside the same bracket. Our new bolster system should make those players reasonably competitive statistically, both with compensation for the lower items as well as some compensation for having fewer skill points/abilities (if you are lower level). Once we get this bolster bug fixed up, everyone should be able to see the kind of stats you are getting from the bolster and should give everyone a better basis for discussion.

I noticed that you raised the issue of wait times, is there any plans of bringing cross server pvp ques into the game so those that do ranked / low lvl pvp brackets / late night or off hours pvpers can have a broader base to pool from for decreased wait times?

Ya, the bolster will work for level 55s as well, if they are under geared. Could you post the stats on what you are seeing on PTS for your guy wearing legacy gear (or send the information to CommunitySupport@swtor.com, subject: ATTN Rob Hinkle, if you don't want to dirty up the thread). It certainly is the intention that your 55 wearing level 35 gear should get bolstered back up. To give everyone an idea (and BIG caveat here, this number is still in flux), but currently I would expect the new 55 bolster to be getting people into gear right around (statistically) non-augmented EWH.

I need a few hours, but I will definately do this! I know with the bug, the numbers might not be adding correctly, but at least, like you said, it will give you an idea where it is currently.

Thanks Rob!

I really kind of wish the bracket extended to level 55. Some of my most fun in PVP has been warzones before hitting level 50 and the massive gear disparity that comes at cap. Maybe it will be better with Bolster, but if it is better with Bolster, then why put 55s in their own bracket? Capped warzones could just be reserved for Ranked Warzones, where that sort of thing is much more important to the high end PVPer.

Sorry for double posting. This could actually be a great solution.

keep the 10-49 bracket

have a 50-55 bracket

ranked warzones are level 55 only

The kiddie pool stays the same, the normals will be a bit more chaotic since endgame and near-endgame clashes, rankeds are for end-game only.

When the pool of endgame pvpers gets larger, put in some matchmaking that puts lvl 55 against lvl 55.

What really confuses me is the amount of time and effort they seem to be going into trying and get all PvP gear to equal out and to only give PvP players a slight edge over non PvP gear wise. I have always thought that expertise is a big joke when it comes to PvP and especially in war zone matches where this one stat often has more to do with who wins than skill and team work combined.

Now I know that the fact that people can grind out end of game PvP gear in a week (I dont have proof of this just something I was told in another thread) so PvP gear can not equal end game PvE means currently PvP gear can not be as good as PvE gear (out side of PvP) wouldn't it be better to add more content, more ways to get the gear and match the progress to make the gears equal and thus allow people to choose what content they want to play day by day rather than force people to either grind PvP and PvE gear while the developemt team then spend God only knows how long trying to get PvE gear to almost match PvP gear in warzones (But not open world PvP) so they can take part without upsetting PvP players that their week grind wasn't just to get gear which is equal to PvE gear all while trying to make sure the level 31 is not out classed by the level 54 based solo on gear.

Valid feedback, and something we continue to debate internally. When we talk about separating the playing population by hard lines, there are always 2 main concerns that often compete directly against each other: A)Can the players inside that bracket reasonably compete against each other, and B)Are there enough players in the bracket to keep wait times reasonably small.

 

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations (often because they've gotten a really important ability from a skill tree) and our data of who actually queues into Warzones has shown that we've got a good pool on each side of that break. We continue to analyze who is playing, however, so certainly if we ever feel like a particular PvP bracket is being starved we should make changes to it. Unfortunately, that's what we believe would happen with a 50 - 54 bracket. It might be populated initially, but would quickly become empty as players hit 55 and for everyone following the initial surge of levelers there would significantly increased wait times to get into PvP.

 

A number of players are concerned, reasonably I think, about the power differential between a fresh level 30 player and a current 50 player in augmented EWH gear being inside the same bracket. Our new bolster system should make those players reasonably competitive statistically, both with compensation for the lower items as well as some compensation for having fewer skill points/abilities (if you are lower level). Once we get this bolster bug fixed up, everyone should be able to see the kind of stats you are getting from the bolster and should give everyone a better basis for discussion.

Its great to hear that you are willing to change based on feedback. And here is some honest feedback laced with a strong hint of distaste.

Level 30 brackets on Master darnala are "already" suffering. If your committed to making everyones play experiences enjoyable id expect you guys to be doing something about the population NOW. Cos, this change is only going to make it worse and quite frankly im getting rather ****** waiting for a response. Especially when we get fed this rubbish above and never see action.

I would feel a complete c*nt to come up against a lvl 30 in quest gear in a Warzone a have to then destroy him... it wouldnt be fun for either of us

I don't see a problem. We already have a 10-49 bracket. So right now you have a 39 level gap in pre-50. 30-54 is only a 24 level gap. I wouldn't feel nearly as bad as a 54 hitting a 30 as I do as a 49 hitting a 10. At least by 30 you have the majority of your skills.

And now that they are changing the bolster system to match gear and not level, it should give them a fighting chance. Right now a lvl 10 will never kill a lvl 49 1v1. A fully bolsterd 30 may have a shot at a normally geared 54.

Ya, the bolster will work for level 55s as well, if they are under geared. Could you post the stats on what you are seeing on PTS for your guy wearing legacy gear (or send the information to CommunitySupport@swtor.com, subject: ATTN Rob Hinkle, if you don't want to dirty up the thread). It certainly is the intention that your 55 wearing level 35 gear should get bolstered back up. To give everyone an idea (and BIG caveat here, this number is still in flux), but currently I would expect the new 55 bolster to be getting people into gear right around (statistically) non-augmented EWH.

Level 55 players are being bolstered? This sounds a little crazy to me. I always thought of the bolster system as something to compensate for players of different levels being placed together in matches so that queues could pop faster, and that bolster was not meant to replace gear for players that are of even level.

I think Bolster should not be a factor at all in the 55 bracket. That is why recruit gear was made so easy to obtain. A game needs to feel grounded by reality, even if that reality is entirely virtual and fictional. A "magical" feeling system that makes gear matter less is going to uproot me from that reality. For lower brackets, I totally understand. But, for 55, where everyone is going to be that level for a very long time, players will easily have the chance to make up for any poor gear and achieve a sense of progression and feel like their gear is improving. Using bolster at 55 to circumvent some of that feels wrong to the core.

Even if you give out completely free starting pvp gear, I like that solution more. Gear should determine how strong a characters stats are. The bolster system feels very black box and I don't trust it. Meanwhile, there are great systems in place to view and effect how my gear's stats add up and impact my character.

Obviously we've had a few bumps in the road on PTS regarding current bolster, but we should be getting that fixed up soon , and everyone can get back to the business of PvP..

Soon....I like how even the devs mock their own worth ethic.

Think about all the lvl 29 ptech twinks there will be haha.

Yeah, for about 12 warzones...until they get a level and are then pinned up against the level 54 twink Ptechs

Bolster in 55 is stupid at that level aint **** to do but grind gear anyway. Now no real incentive anymore.

Give bolster all the way up to 54 but thats it.

Can I also make another suggestion? On your level 55 PvP gear, the armor rating needs to match the new PvE gear armor ratings, especially if Bolster will affect anyone not wearing PVP gear. If I am mistaken on this, some insight would be helpful.

I didn't want this to get lost. The armor, hilt, and barrel ratings need to match the new PVE gear ratings. They currently do not. The difference between the top PVE gear and the top PVP gear should only be the stats, not the ratings. Expertise to keep PvP gear best for PvP, and higher main and secondary (even tertiary) stats to keep PvE gear best for PvE. The ratings should be the same, however, and currently are not.

I am forseeing some problems in the new bracket system, mostly in the short term.

For the short term you have the following problems:

1- People in maxed out PvP gear playing against low level enemies. And while I see it visible to have a bloaster that brings the main stats and endurance to level 55, I do not see this working for other stats like surge, crtic, etc.. If you get bloastered based on your current gear composition people at level 50, who are well optimized, will have huge edge, because their stats are optimal, where at level 30 you wear whatever is available.

2- The 30-54 bracket will have skill matching problems. You will have someone who have played 10-15 games with their character matched against someone who have played couple of hundred games with their character (more than thousand for some). You can still face that in 50 WZs currently, but its kind of rare. I am seeing this as the biggest problem that the new system will have.

3- For the first 2 weeks, not enough people will get to level 55, and the 55 WZs will have long wait times.

Solution:

Have two brackets at the launch of the expansion as follows:

10-49 and 50-55. Make the bloaster takes level 50 wearing PvP gear to somewhere close to what will be the new WH gear as of now. After two-three weeks. Switch to 10-29, 30-54 and 55 brackets. People at level 50 who PvP regularly will not have a huge problem being slightly under geared against people at level 55, and skill level should be semi equal across the board.

Long term problems:

1- The level 10-29 seems a bit of a small bracket. I do not have population counts to make analysis (I am sure BW does), if the 10-29 bracket became 10-34 and the next bracket became 35-54 seems like a better idea, as long as waiting times are below 60 secs.

Bolster in 55 is stupid at that level aint **** to do but grind gear anyway. Now no real incentive anymore.

Give bolster all the way up to 54 but thats it.

One guy says 'OMG! I hate it when undergeared people join *my* WZ.'

Another guy says 'OMG! I hate it when people are on a relatively equal playing field!'

Sometimes I truly do feel sorry for the devs who have to balance all sides to come to a solution that doesn't create a massive dungstorm (an impossibility with MMOs btw).

I for one applaud this change. There is still a good reason to grind gear, as you get bolstered to a non-augmented EWH equivalent without any set bonuses nor any min/maxing. People who grind their gear and put effort into it, will still have an edge. It won't be as wide as the Grand Canyon, like it is now, but there will still be an edge in favour of those who actually have the gear.

PvP with less emphasis on stats and more on skill, yes please.

Ya, the bolster will work for level 55s as well, if they are under geared. Could you post the stats on what you are seeing on PTS for your guy wearing legacy gear (or send the information to CommunitySupport@swtor.com, subject: ATTN Rob Hinkle, if you don't want to dirty up the thread). It certainly is the intention that your 55 wearing level 35 gear should get bolstered back up. To give everyone an idea (and BIG caveat here, this number is still in flux), but currently I would expect the new 55 bolster to be getting people into gear right around (statistically) non-augmented EWH.

Here you go Rob.

Im in legacy gear with lvl 33 purples or less.

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/SWTORFLEET1_zps18b09e65.png

When I enter PVP, I get a 273EXP boost and AIM boost to 1289(+177) and END boost to 1210(+225)

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/SWTORPVP1_zps5a9479eb.png

While this might be recruit level, the issue with 30-54 and 55 brackets is that the EXP boost on gear in the current system will severely outpace this bolster as the removal of the DR and the lack of gear upgrades until 55 will produce a large gear gap in the 30-54. The 55 bracket will suffer as well since the Partisan gear has more EXP and other stats than even elite WH does, let alone the Conqueror gear. I know eventually EWH will get to 55, but the intital shock might be too much for lower level or new entries to PVP to bare.

I am not sure how you solve this besides increasing the EXP boost. I understand you don't want to trivialize PVP gear, but if you are not geared in the current system, 2.0 could reintroduce some of the same gear issues we have now, where a fresh 50, without decent PVE gear, feels like a punching bag.

Check out the expertise thread thats on this forum. Any low level toon with 0 expertise will be bolstered up to w/e the max level is on the highest level in the warzone. They are bolstering off of the player stats and not level anymore.

here this look above

/thread