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6.0 Utility change suggestions

LunarAshes's Avatar

06.09.2018 , 06:17 PM | #1
One thing that always gets me when playing my Marauder is how bad its QOL is, particularly due to some key utilities being either mandatory or just odd in design. Other classes tend to have a much better choice in utilities, and when comparing to Guardian/Juggernaut, their flow of combat is just more polished and fluid while Marauder feels more clunky and cobbled together. I'd like to suggest some Utility changes to be considered for 6.0's inevitable big balance changes (or sooner, if possible during the Summer of PvP!) to make some small Utility adjustments that would really improve the fluidity and fun factor of Marauder/Sentinel without breaking balance significantly.

I will be using Marauder utility names because I don't really play my Sentinel much, I use Guardian on Pubside.

Reasoning: This utility is my biggest problem with Sent/Mara right now. It is absolutely not fun to sit there and channel for 8 seconds arbitrarily just to have your core rotation functional, and the 30s cooldown makes no sense. The entire class is designed around the Fury mechanic and having it up at the start of the fight is very important. You could say "just start with Frenzy" but then you lock yourself out of using your raidwide buff, Bloodthirst, which is also a significant DPS boost. This utility is mandatory for all 3 specs and should not be a utility, which is supposed to be an optional customisation system.

Suggestion: Remove the channeling mechanic from this Utility. Add a baseline passive skill to immediately generate 30 stacks of Fury when entering combat, and rework Brooding to instead have the effect: "Reduces the cooldown of Intimidating Roar. In addition, resets the cooldowns of Dual Saber Throw, Battering Assault and Frenzy upon leaving combat." This change, much like the mirror Guardian/Juggernaut utility, will make combat much more fluid and not have you stop between packs while doing dailies as often, and stop you from needing to channel and respec before every raid boss, and reduce downtime in PvP before you enter a skirmish. Please, Bioware, this is a big one we need and it is not a significant change in terms of balance.

Reasoning: With the Ravage changes, this Utility makes little sense. You don't need to immobilise your opponent if you can just run along with them while casting. Instead, this Utility could be a good opportunity to address all the "bring back the old Ravage animation" complaints. We've seen with the Crippling Slash ranged throw utility that the tech is there to make Utilities create an alternate animation for a skill, so it's possible. The main pushback from Bioware would be around balancing "2 rotations" as a result of this Utility, so let's design it in a way that doesn't cause it to significantly INCREASE DPS but increase PvP cc capability like it's meant to.

Suggestion: Rework Overwhelm to change Ravage to its old 3s channeled animation. Increase Ravage's damage by 1.4x-1.5x (enough to justify a second GCD but not enough to make it an outright increase in DPS rotations - Bioware would have better data to decide the numbers here). The target is immobilised and hindered for the duration of this channel, and the caster is immune to interrupts, knockbacks and "mesmerise" (interruptable stuns like Intimidating Roar) effects for the duration of the channel. Consumes 1 stack of Ferocity every 1.5s if Ferocity is active. Swap Overwhelm with Interloper so it's now a Legendary tier Utility. This is clearly a PvP focused Utility (as is the original) and will bring back the style of the old animation if people want to use it in PvE despite that, but at the cost of a slight DPS loss. The immob+hinder+immunity effect is quite strong for PvP, and will definitely have a balance impact, particularly for Fury, which is already quite strong in the current meta and could warrant a slight nerf to its existing cc immunity passive, but it would mean Annihilation and Carnage become a little more viable. For classes being hit by this skill, there is still the counterplay of using a hard stun, popping DCDs or just out-DPSing the caster back. I think it wouldn't be too overpowered and plenty of people would prefer the mobility of the current Ravage but I'd love to hear more opinions on this one, as I imagine it could be quite controversial!

Blood Ward
Reasoning: 6 seconds of cc immunity at a 3 minute cooldown is an uptime of 3.33%. That is bad. I've never felt this Utility was useful and never seen anyone else use it. Marauder has always been the pure DPS melee class with the worst cc immunity availability, particularly for Annihilation/Carnage. Blood Ward is definitely not worthy of being a Legendary Utility in its current state.

Suggestion: Improve the uptime by making Blood Ward additionally reduce the cooldown of Saber Ward by 1 minute. This is a straight buff, and again, would be quite strong for Fury, but there is a reason Anni/Carnage are dead in PvP nowadays, and that reason is a lack of cc immunity. This change would also increase the cc uptime of Blood Ward to exactly match Deflection for Assassins, which is also 6s every 2 minutes, instead of 3 minutes. The heal and damage absorbed are stronger than Deflection but Marauder doesn't have the benefit of a true stealth and how powerful it is in SWTOR.

Reasoning: In the same vein as the Brooding change, Fury is a mandatory class mechanic for Marauder and is crucial for reaching its core, baseline DPS. This Utility should be made a baseline passive and instead replaced with something that doesn't affect the outright usability of Predation in every combat situation. Marauders are also the worst class to defend a Warzone objective because of their complete lack of counterplay to stealth classes. Sweeping Slash is only usable out of combat if you spec Fury and use Frenzy (a 2min30s cd) to pop Berserk (a core DPS skill) to use Sweeping Slash 5-6 times at most before you're stuck with no options again. Marauders are not intended to be a defender class, of course, but sometimes you don't get the option when your PUGs in Unranked Warzones all go mid for DPS padding leaving you to get the side objectives. Relentless could be a good way to mitigate that issue.

Suggestion: Make Predation cost no Fury and be a 30s cooldown without any Utility and rework Relentless to instead grant a stack of a buff to the caster (let's just call it "Predator's Instinct" for now) every 1.5 seconds that increases Stealth Detection level by 2 per stack. The buff itself lasts 2 seconds unless refreshed by another stack, so you'd effectively get a Stealth Detection level bonus that scales up during Predation from 0 to 12 over its duration, with the final tick lingering over from the 9th second to the 11th second where it fully expires. This makes Predation usable in all scenarios without sacrificing the core DPS rotation and improves counterplay against the, frankly, poorly designed WoW mechanic that is perma-stealth.

What do you guys think? If you feel the suggestions are too strong, how would you tweak them to feel more balanced? Are there any other Utilities you'd like changed in 6.0 (or in the Summer of PvP, if a balance pass is happening then)?

Mycroft-Tarkin's Avatar

06.09.2018 , 06:38 PM | #2
Marauders are already the best performing melee class in PvP. If anything they should be nerfed, along with Mercs and Snipers.

LunarAshes's Avatar

06.09.2018 , 06:45 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Mycroft-Tarkin View Post
Marauders are already the best performing melee class in PvP. If anything they should be nerfed, along with Mercs and Snipers.
Can you elaborate on that please? Does that mean you disagree with everything posted above, including the Brooding change which doesn't affect actual combat capability? Does your statement extend to Carnage/Annihilation?

If anything, FURY Marauders are performing well in PvP right now, and that lies with their CC immunity more than the burst itself. That indicates to me that the baseline needs buffs and Fury needs to be realigned with the other 2 specs.

Regardless, I still feel Juggs/Guards are stronger overall because they're more well rounded and have more options, and that's not counting skank tanks, which are a result of outright broken design.

A_J_B's Avatar

06.10.2018 , 06:23 AM | #4
In 6.0 sure maras/sents could use some changes like brazen should just be a passive for all mara's, but since we don't have any context for 6.0 who can say. As it stands right now thought mara's are one of the top dps classes in the game they have some of the best def cd's of any dps and imo should be nerfed if anything ttk now is to high and i would like to see if back down to how it was in the 2.0-3.0 era.

Not sure why you think Brooding is such a mandatory utility i don't know anyone that takes it outside of duels to use at the start then respec. Overwhelm while i would like to have it brazen is a must have and inexorable is just an all round better pick, but making it hinder the target for 3's is way to strong even if it did little dmg. Plenty of people take blood ward not being able to be cc'ed for the first 6's of saber ward makes it a much better def cd unlike deflection on sins were if you use it while not white barred you get stunned and its like you don't have it active at all, you also get healing off it and the 25% yellow dmg reduction. As far as relentless goes giving pred just a base 30's cd without a utility would be ok for 6.0 depending on context and what changes other classes are getting but right now you are just giving mara's another free utility point to spend and you don't need stealth detection the only time perma stealth is a problem is arena and people going to acid which is being addressed.

TalonVII's Avatar

06.10.2018 , 10:37 AM | #5
If any class needs utility help, its PTs/VGs. Not Mara.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
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Rkillerfin's Avatar

06.11.2018 , 10:23 AM | #6

Ld-Siris's Avatar

06.15.2018 , 05:38 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
If any class needs utility help, its PTs/VGs. Not Mara.
While I definitely agree PTs need help this is in fact the Marauder forum. Plus ONE spec of the marauder does well. Not saying the others are bad but one of them does perform a lot better then the others. Also as I play on all classes most of the classes it can be hard to choice the utilizes as you're like oh I want this and this and this but you only get one. You have a choice. On the Marauder utilizes it just seems like there is no choice. You have to take this and this and this. A lot of our utilizes used to be our passives and its seems like we have no real choice in picking them.

I disagree with your suggestion as I like having ravage the way it is. it keeps us more mobile. And if it broke anything it put the Veng Jugg rotation out of alignment which is another matter altogether. It does however still root players for the full 3s even when ravage has finished its instant. It still is a usefule tool for Immortal jugs but honestly for the marauder it is way under performing compare to the other utilities that you *need* to take. Such as Braizen and Inexorable (Is it called that for the marauder or jugg?)

Raid Buffs
I'm just going to group these together. Relentless, Unbound, Phantom, and Expunging Camo. I find these utilities as a must especially facing a sniper who has a 7.5s leg shot among other things. The Sorc raid but requires a tiny bit of force. The Ops consumes on 1 TA and not a big deal to the Op dps and nothing for an op healer. And the Mercs is less so as they have a passive for gaining stacks. At least for Arsenal they pretty much do the same thing but I can say for heals or IO. We on the other had as state require fury and berserk for our rotation no matter the spec so having berserk, predation, and bloodthirst all requiring a stack is a bit much. I think its time that either berserk gets taken off fury (Tho I am afraid what that will do to our rotations) or put bloodthirst on something else. Currently I almost never use blood thirst anymore because its such a waste.

As for Relentless, Unbound, Phantom, and Expunging camo I do think there needs to be a change. Requiring 4 Utilities Just to get decent mobility is ridiculous, especially compared to other classes. Now predation is a raid buff so I believe altering it too much might make it too OP. If anything were to happen I'd say during the first 6s of predation make the marauder *only* immune to roots on top of the actual root braking.


Make Phantom just a passive. Expunging camo can still be a utility but phantom should just be a passive as the marauder is all about speed and mobility. We are tanks we don't sit and take damage, we fly and deal it.

Blood Ward
Now I general don't take this as I find sacrificing taking only 1 legendary utility in favor of taking both the obfuscate utilities is better (and a necessity) BUT.... I disagree. As I said we aren't tanks and Sabe Wward is a very powerful DCD and as much as I would love it having it lower than 3mins would be OP. I would say they need to attach it to something else. If they were to attach it to say cloak of pain i'd say put a limiter such as can not occur more that once ever 1 min, or even 2 mins to align with other classes.

I liked having this as a passive to carnage but as a utility it is worthless. I believe your suggestion is a bit strong however. Tho I love the idea of resetting DST and Force Charge when you exit combat. And if they do any suggestions I made about the raid buffs, I'd like to see this.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar

06.15.2018 , 07:16 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Mycroft-Tarkin View Post
Marauders are already the best performing melee class in PvP. If anything they should be nerfed, along with Mercs and Snipers.
Not they are not. Fury is. Annihilation and Carnage have taken multiple nerfs in 5.x. Carnage is the most nerfed spec in the entire game in 5.x. It is the only spec in the game that recieved direct DPS nerfs and one of them was due to the fact that the combat team didn't know that you didn't need to clip in order to land three attacks in the non-beserk ferocity window. Carnage lost two Ferocity window attacks which accounted for about 900 DPS lose.

Furthermore they entirely changed it's playstyle its literally not the same Carnage it was throughout the entire game up until 5.6. It doesn't play the same. It went from the fastest spec in the game to it actually being a DPS loss to run the high alacrity build which was it's hallmark since 4.0 on [although it didn't require quite as much alacrity as the high alacrity build does now.]. Additionally, as it no longer needs the alacrity it is also saddled by a beserk effect that does virually nothing for them. Every other rotation the alacrity is uneven anyways. It also has the hardest resource management for optimal performance of the 3 specs. It has no heals and it has no defense against CC [immunityor/partial].

Fury is the only Marauder spec that has CC immunity, it always was that way even when Ruthless Aggressor gave partial resistance. Fury gets 6 seconds of CC immunity every 26 seconds and requires no use of any non attack ability for it. Plus it has rage coming out of its A-O and has zero resource managenment. It can leap to Snipers and has an extra leap and has the best mobility and uptime among the 3 specs.

There is a reason why 90% of the Marauders you see running around in PVP and Operations. It is superior to Carnage and Anni in every single way.

Carnage has the worse DPS threshold of any melee DPS spec in the entire game.

Don't take my word for it -

Fury is strong, Carnage is garbage now. If you think that Marauder has anywhere near the kind of survivability that Mercs and Snipers do, you don't play Marauder. While admittedly Fury does have a better time of it, the fact is that Marauders are the only class in the entire game without self heals. I don't take anyone seriously who thinks that self heals don't weigh into the survivability equation in PVP.

Mercs and snipers have heals coming out of their ***, Marauders don't.

Even Fury with all it's advantages over the the other two specs is still effected by the lack of self heals.

The DCDs are great but they are also fleeting as all hell. Two of the main DCDs have three minute cooldowns, one of them having a 4 seconds uptime and doesn't even work correctly in all instances. [E-Net]. In your average lengthed WZ a Marauders DCDs will not cover them for 60-65% of the time and if there is no healer on their team, they're survivability leaves a lot to be desired, when facing competent enemies. Marauders cannot win battles of attrition and virtually ever opponent they face will have some amount of heals, many of which now are doing ridiculous amounts of healing for DPS specs. [Merc, Sniper, DPS sorcs, Juggs and Operatives].

You can root or slow mercs and snipers all day long, it's not going to stop them from attacking you, which is exactly what they do to melee. This is a Ranged Meta by any standard.

I have been playing Carnage for the last 6 years, this is the worst it has ever been hands down.
Say Fury, otherwise you're just lieing.

yellow_'s Avatar

06.15.2018 , 08:13 PM | #9
what is it about marauder players that makes them so uniquely oblivious to how good their class is

at least sniper and merc players have the good graces not to make awful threads demanding buffs to their obviously well -performing specs

Ld-Siris's Avatar

06.15.2018 , 10:31 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
I couldn't agree more with everything you said. The marauder in general was always meant to be a fast acting high dps performing glass cannon. It was never about if you were going to die, but when you did how many people did you take down with you. but all that changed a long time ago.

And the main reason they messed carnage up so bad was the fact that IT was the hybrid (quasi) spec and Fury was burst. During 5.x they decided to change it. They made fury the hybrid (quasi) and carnage the burst. The problem is rage jugg is still burst so now you have the fury class whose burst is higher then Carnage (which is now the actual burst spec) plus having good sustained damage. Plus its the only spec that better performs in the mobility section. I don't understand why range classes in this game have so many mobility and the ability to root the melee.

And I'm not even talking about how much perfect a sniper has about being the marauder's anticlass.

Quote: Originally Posted by yellow_ View Post
what is it about marauder players that makes them so uniquely oblivious to how good their class is

at least sniper and merc players have the good graces not to make awful threads demanding buffs to their obviously well -performing specs
Have you actually played or a mara or do sometimes maras just mess you up in pvp?