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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?


MajinUltima

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Which is exactly why I hated playing a Healer pre-2.0 - in an random battlefield consisting entirely with PUGs, randoms, zerging and NO TEAMPLAY.

 

In the end, I just stopped playing a Healer there. Because of the obvious reasons (too squishy in an non-teamplay zergfest zone).

 

 

 

Which might tell quite a thing about "the PC player" as such.

 

I found the opposite to be true. In PUGs I realized quickly that most matches, we never had a healer and would just get crushed. So I started checking for healers, and if there weren't any I would field respect and we would do a lot better. Sure, it wasn't as fun, but it made the overall warzone more enjoyable.

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Then you are a bad healer.

 

So, how do you defend yourself from being defeated ?

 

I found the opposite to be true. In PUGs I realized quickly that most matches, we never had a healer and would just get crushed. So I started checking for healers, and if there weren't any I would field respect and we would do a lot better. Sure, it wasn't as fun, but it made the overall warzone more enjoyable.

 

To me, it was just too much. Everyone attacked the squishy healers first, of course, even ignoring tanks and everything else - I died a lot.

 

Had I had support back then, my experience would have been much more positive. But I just died too fast.

 

Nowadays, my Sage (my main Healer) (the one with having only light armor) is being experimentally played on battlefields again - and it has become kind of fun now. Of course I die, but I'm not that squishy anymore, and - what's more - I actually get at least *some* support nowadays !

 

But still - in random matches, there is still more zerging than teamplay (including support). I often get jumped at by some smashers - and then I die again, if I'm not fast enough.

 

So, to me, things have turned into a rather m,ore "fun" direction again. If there wasn't 2.0, then I still wouldn't play my Healer in PvP, far too squishy, imho.

Edited by AlrikFassbauer
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Despite lack of healer killing specific abilities, I'd actually put vigilance as the best healer killing spec. Once you get on a healer as vigilance, the only way to get you off is to kill you. Infiltration is also excellent at healer killing. The only problem killing people as carnage is that you get your face cc'd then ripped right off if the team knows how to defend their medic.

 

In my case, I would contend that the Defense/Immortal Guardian/Jugg as the best healer-neuteriing class in the game.

 

Note that it's not necessarily "healer-busting", but rather "healer-neutering".

 

- Two stuns

- One AoE sleep,

- knockback

- Force Leap(which is by itself an interrupt, although not casting lock)

- an interrupt power

- that interrupt power finishing cooldown on Force Leap

- AoE slow that costs no resource and can be refreshed infinitely

- a "jump to friendly" power that also can be applied for offense usage

- resilient enough to withstand enemy DPS trying to clear their healer (provided you have your own heal support)

 

With enough support from smart teammates, a defense/immortal guardian/jugg can wreck havoc and scatter away the enemy healers and harass them to nearly non-potency in healing.

 

IMO, when a full-scale engagement starts, the Guardian/Jugg's job is dual - not only do they need to protect their own healer, but also they need to harass the enemy healer.

 

The basics of team-level combat would be the Guardian/Jugg charging in first, onto the enemy healers, in which case enemy DPS will switch targets to focus the Guardian/Jugg. The Guardian/Jugg activates defenses to survive the initial mass-alpha strike from enemy DPS, your own healer focuses heals on the Guardian/Jugg, and then your DPS start hitting the enemy DPS that's latched on to you (whom, as a reminder, will not be receiving much heals since the Guardians/Juggs of your team are harassing the enemy healers all day long)

 

The enemy DPS starts falling first, then the enemy tanks, and then soon only the healers are left, in which case, without protection, they become pretty easy pickings for your team.

 

This is the most ideal, and "basic" scenario to defeat enemy team with heals, and all tactical variations basically start from here. In terms of harassment, Guardians and Juggs are king.

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This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.

Not at all. Healers are overpowered in 1v1 (except maybe Merc/Commando) in that, even IF they lose, it takes SO long that 2-4 respawn timers have passed. Their performance scales UP in larger conflicts. So healers are overpowered in all senses. Healers should be terrible 1v1, they're a support role that is supposed to be heavily dependent on others.

 

It's not Pugs vs Premades that is the problem. Premades do disproprtionately stack healers or hybrid specs to carry them to easy wins that have nothing to do with coordination or skill though. Premades are fine, but premades notoriously stack whatever is the most overpowered at a given time and milk it, then attribute their wins to "skill" so as to feed their ego. Being able to play with friends and what-not is an important aspect of online gaming.

 

For example, your typical scoreboard results:

Max healing - 800k, not counting large amounts of overhealing

Max damage - 500k, typically with a lot of wasted AOE/multi-DOT inflation that was meditated off out of combat

 

Varies by warzone, duration of said warzone, level bracket, gear levels, etc but this is a common and ever-present example. What such a number doesn't show is that the healer isn't even taxing themself on output, whereas the damage dealer is expending every possible ounce of resource and inflation... to fall woefully short of healing output. DPS is constantly expending resources at the fastest sustainable rate, it's how the role plays. Healers aren't, most times they're barely even trying. Healer output in most circumstances is easily 2x damage output.

 

This game is broken, and max-level PVP is a thoroughly unpleasant experience. The only people who approve of the current situation are those exploiting the current situation... and sadly, they don't realize how foolish they are. Winning by explotiation may be "fun" for a while but it gets boring. Facing other exploiters in the dumbest stallfests possible... gets annoying and loses its appeal. It's not productive to a fun experience even for the players involved, but the free wins barely feed their ego enough for them to mistake it for fun.

 

Since I was attacking the other door I asked what brilliant plan did we do to crack their defense, and the response was 'we had 3 guys capping the door from starting of the match and eventually one of them succeeded'. Games like that are becoming increasing common and I can't imagine them being very fun for anybody involved.

LOL This too. The gameplay is downright degenerate. So many Novare and ACW and Voidstar games boil down to who capped nodes first, because good luck capping much of anything once the match is in-progress. I've had far too many Novare and ACW matches where control of objectives didn't change all game long. Once an objective was captured, control never changed, so whoever got mid first auto-won because of the stallfest.

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Says you. So you get to decide which class is a "team role"? Aren't they all? Do you do flashpoints or ranked without a tank or dps?

LOL

I think that's about the extent of my response needed. Apparently Healer is a valid 1v1 "role" and not a team support role. You should outheal the enemy and defeat him with angry emotes, or something, I don't even know. This is one fo those things that's so silly that it just makes your brain implode trying to read it.

 

Well let's reverse your assumed propositions. Dps is a team role. They cannot tank or heal and are entirely dependent upon other classes to be able to fulfill their function.

Not at all.

DPS = I see enemy, I can attack enemy.

Tank = Enemy sees me, I can endure enemy attacks.

Healer = Doesn't directly interact with the enemy, interacts with teammates.

 

Sure you can sit in a corner alone and heal yourself, but then... who are you healing? You may as well not even be healing if you're not healing the team. A comparison was made to flashpoints, so what good is a healer who only heals themself? What good is a dps that isn't attacking enemies? What good is a tank that isn't taking hits from enemies? A healer's use is dependent on healing the team, a healer without a team isn't doing anything and may as well not be there.

 

DPS and Tanks aren't dependent on allies present to perform their roles (that is not to say they don't have roles without allies present). Healers by definition don't have a role without allies present. DPS and Tanks don't have a role without enemies present. That is the difference between the roles.

 

If you can't expect a healer or tank to kill 1 competent dps, then what happens when a 2nd dps gets involved?

A healer should die without a team. A healer shouldn't be beating a competent DPS and should not be delaying the competent DPS so much that multiple respawn phases pass. (It isn't uncommon for a healer to just plain win against DPS specs that cannot heal themselves though.) The healer and tank roles scale UP as more players get involved. A healer's survivability skyrockets with Guard on them, a tank's Taunt actually DOES something with other players involved.

 

A DPS will (barring AOE/DOTs) never be more than they were 1on1... they may live longer thanks to support roles, but their DPS output doesn't go up because a teammate is nearby (it may scale up from more ENEMIES to hit, but DPS output doesn't increase from allies being nearby, excluding some buffs/debuffs provided). I don't understand why there is so much anti-DPS bias, that DPS need to be nerfed to not be able to beat anyone who isn't DPS. Apparently DPS aren't supposed to be good at anything in any conflict size?

 

But really, the only ones that deserve to be good at solo and team play are dps, right? And you say healers feel entitled?

DPS don't functionally scale up as conflict size increases. AOEs and mutli-DOTs increase damage a bit (though often at increased resource costs which is expensive on sustainability). Tanks scale up a bit, their Guard and Taunts become useful. Healers scale up more, damage is distributed among more targets at once, making healing easier (easier than healing just yourself alone, for example), guard and taunt effects as well as CC effects also inhibit damage done. Damage sustainability goes down as conflict size increases, healing becomes easier.

 

So if DPS can't win 1on1 (or can't win within a reasonable timeframe) and get worse as conflict size increases, what are DPS good at then?

I don't believe that healers are doing 60% more than damage on average.

Which is too much, especially on an uninterruptable class like Operative/Scoundrel, when damage gets scaled down so much by CCs and Taunts, while healing doesn't. Taunting doesn't make healing heal for less. CCs don't stop HOTs. Interrupts sure stop your Lightning Strike or Grav Round, but it's pretty one-sided when you have nothing to interrupt in return. Most DOTs are cheaper to dispel (which is itself talent into a cost-effective heal on top of the debuff remove) than the dispel is to cast, but HOTs aren't dispellable. Damage already scales down with conflict size while healing becomes easier.

 

Put these factors together and, even giving you the 60% in a vacuum as a freebie... it quickly scales to a 2x or more margin in an actual pvp environment.

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Personally I think healing needed to be buffed. Most people didn't like healing in warzones pre 2.0 because 1 DPS could easily kill 1 healer if they were geared right, so there was no point in playing them.

Sounds like your healer shouldn't be 1v1ing. Maybe your team support role needs to be providing and attracting TEAM SUPPORT. If healer is 1v1ing, you're right, there's no point in that player being a healer. Find a healer who knows how to play a healer.

 

God forbid that you actually need to have a little more teamwork to take down a healer

Requiring a TEAM to take down A player-anything is stupid. It should require a team to beat a team, sure. It should not require a team to kill a lone healer, ever, under any circumstances. It did require teamwork before to kill a healer as part of a team, you had to isolate them so that the dps could do their 1on1 job of killing the healer. If the healer was guarded or being cross-healed, they wouldn't die unless another player was CCing/distracting the other tank, healer, dps-peeler, etc.

 

Currently you need to have 2 dps on the healer before any other modifiers just to have any hope of killing them within a respawn window. If you have 1 dps chasing 1 healer, that healer ain't dying before the respawn timers have passed a few times. Healers who didn't know how to play with a team, as a team, got mad that dps could 1v1 them so healing got buffed to the point that the game is degenerate. If a healer doesn't have team support, that isn't even necessarily the healer's fault, but it SHOULD be a DEAD healer and quickly. It's frustrating, but it's what you signed up for when you want to roll with a team role.

 

If you want to be a solo champ, then don't complain when your team support options are limited. If you're gonna be a big source of team support, don't whine about someone else killing you badly 1on1. Like I said, a massively entitled attitude that healers feel they should do anything better than die horribly out alone. You should get what you sign up for role-wise. If your tank is disatisfied his damage is low, he shouldn't be a tank. If your healer is upset he dies 1on1, he shouldn't be a healer. If your dps is upset they can't make a big impact in big battles, they should be a tank/healer instead.

 

Unfortunately, the current state of affairs is the healers just dominate all categories making 1v1s and team engagements take so long that the actual dps role is a moot point.

 

No! 4 players from team A chasing 2 healers from team B (they were cross healing and making each other immortal) for more than a solid minute while the remaining 4 players from team A are butchered by 6 players from team B and your objectives are taken is considered a good strategy. You are bad if math works correctly for you, the real players are able to defy math.

It's a lose-lose when stacked healers are involved. If those 6 in mid had the healers instead, they just don't die until respawn timers. If you send equal or less, you make no progress. If you send more, you have no defense.

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Both my Ops healer and my sorc healer die pretty easily to 2 dps.

Anyone should be deader than dead 2on1. You should be dead 1on1 without help. Your phrasing is so entitled like "well losing 2v1 is means I'm balanced". Really? Of course you should lose 2on1, I don't care what class you play. Your posts are painful to read.

I know any of my dps characters can fully occupy a healer.

He's fully occupying the DPS as well, more than occupying. A healer shouldn't be this paragon role of uberness which 1 enemy merely "occupies" the time of. Like I said, your phrasing is beyond entitled.

Have you tried, you know, interupting the healers?

Let's list the main spells an Operative uses to see what I can interrupt...

- Kolto Probe? Nope.

- Surgical Probe? Nope.

- Recuperative Nanotech? Nope.

- Their cleansing dispel which also heals? Nope.

- Kolto Injection? The weak filler heal? Ah, alright, there we go. I can interrupt THAT... while the vast majority of their healing performance is uninterruptable and undispellable AND dirt cheap on resource cost.

 

A Sorc/Sage isn't much better. Their spammable bubble AND their short cd HOT are both instant. Their channelled spell is almost certain to tick 1-2x before being interrupted AND has a cooldown shorter than most interrupts, which makes it not worth interrupting, since they already got a sizeable heal off AND leaves you unable to interrupt their filler. Like Operative, Sorc/Sage leaves you in a spot where you can only interrupt their filler which isn't the bulk of their healing output. Their big AOE heal is interruptable at least, which is something.

 

Players who are ignorant of healing specs should refrain from making off-hand comments trying to smugly imply that other players are bad.

4 seconds of global shutdown on heals for an interrupt would actually force healers to learn to play and finally draw a line between conscious healers and heal farm spammers.

Im a healer btw.

That does sound like a reasonable potential solution... but one that basically kills all Merc/Commando healers completely. Moving Healing Scan to Instant cast might be an additional adjustment for them to at least not leave them worse than currently.

 

Which is exactly why I hated playing a Healer pre-2.0 - in an random battlefield consisting entirely with PUGs, randoms, zerging and NO TEAMPLAY.

I dislike playing healing specs because I don't like being dependent on others if I'm caught in a 1v1 or 1v2 or even just a generally split up engagement. My solution isn't "OMG LET'S BUFF HEALERS TO DOMINATE ALL SIZES OF GAMEPLAY", my solution is to recognize that healing in PVP isn't really for me as a player. A LOT of healers posting against me in this thread only heal because it is so dominating right now, they wouldn't heal if they actually had to be dependent on teammates.

 

I found the opposite to be true. In PUGs I realized quickly that most matches, we never had a healer and would just get crushed. So I started checking for healers, and if there weren't any I would field respect and we would do a lot better. Sure, it wasn't as fun, but it made the overall warzone more enjoyable.

In the olden days or yore, a long time ago, galaxy, far away, etc... it boiled down to individual competency and communication on the enemy team. It was entirely possible to go 1 match untouched and the next match killed on sight. Nowadays, the latter just isn't an option most of the time because of how disproportinately powerful healing is. Good DPS prioritizing healers cannot shut down even an unsupported healer alone, let alone a supported one. (Individual skill/gear always matters, this is a generalization.)

 

In lv55 PVP, against premades stacking healers or against pugs with a lot of healers, the match boils down to a "Why bother? They won't die anyway.".

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I didn't read this whole thread but I will say this...

 

I notice an ENORMOUS difference between normal and ranked WZs; AND competent teams/good players in normal WZs vs less effective teams. As a healer, I cannot lol-heal in ranked. In normals, against good players, I rely on my team a ton to survive focus fire - but against less effective players/teams, I can, for example, hold up 3-5 players at a point for a very long time as a sorc healer (same for my operative healer).

 

In conclusion, it is absolutely a LTP issue for those players - or perhaps they just have a really bad comp. Either way, before 2.0 any derp DPS would do. Now, teams actually need to focus fire, stagger interrupts on good healers. This is obviously more difficult for PUGs to do but it can be done. Good players are good players.

 

Editing to add - guard/taunt (especially when paired with op healers) is probably too strong. Also, op healers need resource management to enter the equation again. The skill cap for healing on an op is far too low now because we never have to consider energy unless we're being careless and rolling all around.

Edited by Jaiyne
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Editing to add - guard/taunt (especially when paired with op healers) is probably too strong. Also, op healers need resource management to enter the equation again. The skill cap for healing on an op is far too low now because we never have to consider energy unless we're being careless and rolling all around.

 

in which case i had rather the healing toned down to more reasonable, than the taunting/guarding,

 

cause toning down guard/taunts, will dumb down the game making those mechanics forgettable gimmicks and hence the classes/spe that bring those spells to the table,

 

healing will not be a forgettable mechanic if toned down, it has a lot of leeway for nerf.

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Every healing class has an alternative heal if their main heal gets interrupted. Both sorcs and merc healers also get interrupt immunity cooldowns. Over half the HPS from an operative is coming from non-interruptable instants. The only way to handle it is to chain stun and burst, which is entirely based on which classes you have available to you in the fight on the DPS side as some classes cannot chain stun or burst easily.

 

What'd be interesting (but they won't do) would be if they gave PTs/VGs a 10 second no-regen debuff they could put on people to help break stalemates. For 10 seconds, you don't regen any energy and your existing energy pool is cut in half. Give a 90 second cooldown and make tanks immune to it. You'd fix the current PVP situation and VGs/PTs at the same time.

 

For sorcs/sages if you don't need to interrupt everything. If you interrupt innervate/healing trance, you'll cut out a large portion of thier healing and core mechanic. You have a point with the operative, many of thier abilities are instant. Emergency medpack is pretty insane for an essentiallly spammable ability but you just have to time your stun for when they are low.

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Interrupt without global or school silence just proves how clueless the people on the developers seat are.

 

4 seconds of global shutdown on heals for an interrupt would actually force healers to learn to play and finally draw a line between conscious healers and heal farm spammers.

 

Im a healer btw.

 

School silence would just put Operative even more hopelessly overpowered relative to other healers, as you can't do school interrupt on instant heals. Global silence would be overkill.

 

What needs to happen is that the major heal output should be on heals that are interruptible. This is how Commandoes work and how Sages worked mostly until AE heal become super fast casting. Due to PvE consideration, you'd probably need something like all instant casting heals needs to cost 33% more resources while in WZs. If you want to spam heals that can't even be interrupted, you got to pay a very significant price to do so.

Edited by Astarica
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For sorcs/sages if you don't need to interrupt everything. If you interrupt innervate/healing trance, you'll cut out a large portion of thier healing and core mechanic. You have a point with the operative, many of thier abilities are instant. Emergency medpack is pretty insane for an essentiallly spammable ability but you just have to time your stun for when they are low.

 

Um, Healing Trance ticks extremely fast. You'll probably get half of the heals off before you can interupt it, and then you also don't have an interrupt to deal with anything else they might cast, and Healing Trance has a very low CD. Deliverance is still a more powerful heal if you get to free cast it. It's just that there's currrently no real need to even cast that between all the other uninterruptible/hard to interrupt heals, because it's risky to cast a Deliverance and have it interrupted at the last 0.1s when you can just spam 4 different fast/instant heals.

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What 4 other heals do sorcs have that can be spammed?

 

1) revivication requires a 3x proc from innervate and has a 15 second cd

 

2) resurgence has a cool down 6 seconds

 

3) Shield can be spammed but not on same player due to ionization

 

4) Cleanse has a cd 4.5 seconds

 

If you are a sorc healer, you also likely have to use non-pvp gear to get the cd reduction on innervate, otherwise its 9 seconds. Which I guess is now a "very low cd".

 

Sure I can spam heal against a team that is 1v 1 solo death matching. But if you focus 1 target and you are stunning me, there is no way I can fix it. All the resurgence/shield in the world isnt going to solve a burst. For that you need innervate and dark infusion, which are both channeled.

 

What is funny is when I go into wzs with players who dont have good gear and they are melted before I can even attempt to try and bring them back. Yeah Im hard to kill, I have fully augmented gear and understand what I am doing.

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What 4 other heals do sorcs have that can be spammed?

 

1) revivication requires a 3x proc from innervate and has a 15 second cd

 

2) resurgence has a cool down 6 seconds

 

3) Shield can be spammed but not on same player due to ionization

 

4) Cleanse has a cd 4.5 seconds

 

Rotate between those heals and innervate and you can always be casting something really hard to interrupt. You don't need all 3 procs to cast Revivification. There's a pretty good chance the 2 stack or 1 stack version will slip through and if it gets interrupted you can always cast a big heal instead. The procs for revivification is there to preven the worst case scenario where you spend 1.9s casting Revivification and have it interrupted and that gives the enemy enough time to try to burst you down. With even 1 stack it's way harder to attempt to interrupt it at the last 0.1s so either it gets interrupted much earlier or not at all and either outcome is fine.

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Rotate between those heals and innervate and you can always be casting something really hard to interrupt. You don't need all 3 procs to cast Revivification. There's a pretty good chance the 2 stack or 1 stack version will slip through and if it gets interrupted you can always cast a big heal instead. The procs for revivification is there to preven the worst case scenario where you spend 1.9s casting Revivification and have it interrupted and that gives the enemy enough time to try to burst you down. With even 1 stack it's way harder to attempt to interrupt it at the last 0.1s so either it gets interrupted much earlier or not at all and either outcome is fine.

 

I understand how to play, but you are making it seem like a sorc can simply just hit 1 or 2 spells without thinking.

 

To get your rotation right, to be able to fight through constantly being marked and getting off heals, isnt as easy as you make it. Generally in a wz there is 1 or 2 healers, and unless Im against a bad team, I generally take the most damage in every wz (light armor, yay)

 

Reviv is only as good as the wz you are in. Smart teams immediately put aoes down on it, thus completely negating one of my most expensive casts. Its also only efficient for spreading out healing (a lot of those numbers are junk like aoe dps or dots) because its simply topping people off who are taking slight aoe damage. My reviv (incorrectly typed innervate) crits for 1100 per tick, a dps can easily burn that down.

 

And as I said previously, if a team is properly focusing on 1-2 targets, no amount of shield/resurgence/reviv is going to save them. You need to hit them with innervate/dark infusion to keep them up.

 

But that is why this isnt really an issue. DPS makes or breaks your team. If they can burn down targets, you are going to win. If they cant burn down targets inspect the player.

 

Its not about healers, its about the players. I can guess at my teams chances as soon as I zone in. 1) Do I recognize any of the names, 2) are there more than 2 in a good pvp guild and 3) do I have considerably more (5k+) hps than anyone else on my team.

Edited by Soxbadger
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My innervate crits for 1100 per tick, a dps can easily burn that down.
Huh?????

I don't even think it's possible to get such low ticks in the bolster system. Mine ticks for 3,1K'ish on crits and around 1,8K on non crits.

Edited by MidichIorian
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I understand how to play, but you are making it seem like a sorc can simply just hit 1 or 2 spells without thinking.

 

To get your rotation right, to be able to fight through constantly being marked and getting off heals, isnt as easy as you make it. Generally in a wz there is 1 or 2 healers, and unless Im against a bad team, I generally take the most damage in every wz (light armor, yay)

 

Reviv is only as good as the wz you are in. Smart teams immediately put aoes down on it, thus completely negating one of my most expensive casts. Its also only efficient for spreading out healing (a lot of those numbers are junk like aoe dps or dots) because its simply topping people off who are taking slight aoe damage. My innervate crits for 1100 per tick, a dps can easily burn that down.

 

And as I said previously, if a team is properly focusing on 1-2 targets, no amount of shield/resurgence/reviv is going to save them. You need to hit them with innervate/dark infusion to keep them up.

 

But that is why this isnt really an issue. DPS makes or breaks your team. If they can burn down targets, you are going to win. If they cant burn down targets inspect the player.

 

Its not about healers, its about the players. I can guess at my teams chances as soon as I zone in. 1) Do I recognize any of the names, 2) are there more than 2 in a good pvp guild and 3) do I have considerably more (5k+) hps than anyone else on my team.

 

Sorcs are probably borderline manageable if it's just one of them, but hardly a WZ goes by with only 1 healer now. Add another Sorc and now it's much harder to focus on them. Add an Operative and you can pretty much forget about trying to burst down either healer.

 

Of course since healers are all over the place it does indeed boil down to DPS but it's a rather degenerative form of gameplay. Your DPS isn't really beating the enemy healer if they're at all good, though this applies to your side as well. In the optimistic case this might mean your DPS managed to kill their healer twice which is one more than the amount of time your healer died, so this wins in the game. In the degenerate case this means your DPS was quicker at clicking on nodes as they're the best objective takers in a game where nobody dies (it's safe to do no DPS if nobody is dying anyway). It's likely the stronger team wins still but it's not in a way that's at all enjoyable. Objective based WZ simply doesn't make much sense when the total number of deaths on both side is in the single digits.

Edited by Astarica
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Huh?????

I don't even think it's possible to get such low ticks in the bolster system. Mine ticks for 3,1K'ish on crits and around 1,8K on non crits.

 

 

I meant revivication, sorry. Innervate is over 3.2k

 

I also made changes to my post to reflect. My reviv crits for over 1100 and normally does 600.

Edited by Soxbadger
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I meant revivication, sorry. Innervate is over 3.2k

 

Revivification is obviously not designed to keep anyone alive while under pressure. The change to it (faster cast) isn't beneficial in the sense that those massive powerful circles on the ground are now keeping a pressured healer alive. It's that because they're fast casting you no longer have to worry about the worst case scenario where a DPS have you completely beaten by interrupting you at 0.1s left to cast and then stun you. This is the same reason why casting Dark Infusion/Deliverance is dangerous, because you risk taking 6 seconds of concentrated DPS. Actually it's even worse in the case of Revivication, as the amount it heals is certainly nowhere enough to keep any DPS off, so often a perfectly valid strategy is just let the Sorc finish casting his Revivification and just DPS him through it. Prior to 2.0, it took a lot of guts to cast Revivification because it's basically a free invitation for 6 seconds of focus fire. In PvP, the difference between 4 seconds (straight up stun) and 6 seconds (interrupted at the last 0.1s of your heal) is an eternity and with the change to Revivification you're usually looking at ~5s in the worst case, which is something you can live with.

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Sorcs are probably borderline manageable if it's just one of them, but hardly a WZ goes by with only 1 healer now. Add another Sorc and now it's much harder to focus on them. Add an Operative and you can pretty much forget about trying to burst down either healer.

 

Of course since healers are all over the place it does indeed boil down to DPS but it's a rather degenerative form of gameplay. Your DPS isn't really beating the enemy healer if they're at all good, though this applies to your side as well. In the optimistic case this might mean your DPS managed to kill their healer twice which is one more than the amount of time your healer died, so this wins in the game. In the degenerate case this means your DPS was quicker at clicking on nodes as they're the best objective takers in a game where nobody dies (it's safe to do no DPS if nobody is dying anyway). It's likely the stronger team wins still but it's not in a way that's at all enjoyable. Objective based WZ simply doesn't make much sense when the total number of deaths on both side is in the single digits.

 

Well (imo) an optimal line up has 1-2 healers. 3 is manageable depending on zone, but if you dont cap first you may have an extremely rough time re-taking the node.

 

But healing is never going to win a match, at best healing will be a stalemate and even in a stalemate I believe that kills are the determining factor.

 

Which is why you are seeing a lot of new strategies to start wzs. You dont just simply send 1 person to node and the rest to fight at mid. You have some going 4/0/4, 2/2/4, etc etc, because getting the first tick matters. Having strategy matters.

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Revivification is obviously not designed to keep anyone alive while under pressure. The change to it (faster cast) isn't beneficial in the sense that those massive powerful circles on the ground are now keeping a pressured healer alive. It's that because they're fast casting you no longer have to worry about the worst case scenario where a DPS have you completely beaten by interrupting you at 0.1s left to cast and then stun you. This is the same reason why casting Dark Infusion/Deliverance is dangerous, because you risk taking 6 seconds of concentrated DPS. Actually it's even worse in the case of Revivication, as the amount it heals is certainly nowhere enough to keep any DPS off, so often a perfectly valid strategy is just let the Sorc finish casting his Revivification and just DPS him through it. Prior to 2.0, it took a lot of guts to cast Revivification because it's basically a free invitation for 6 seconds of focus fire. In PvP, the difference between 4 seconds (straight up stun) and 6 seconds (interrupted at the last 0.1s of your heal) is an eternity and with the change to Revivification you're usually looking at ~5s in the worst case, which is something you can live with.

 

You are basically arguing against yourself now. If innervate is on cool down, the only big heal I have is dark infusion, which you just said is a risky cast. Otherwise its dark heal (also channeled) which is not force efficient and crits for 40-50% less.

 

The only 3 spells I can use while moving and heal are 1) cleanse, 2) shield and 3) resurgence. Otherwise I have to stand there (even if reviv is 2 stacks, I still have to stand still)

 

Im just not sure how sorcs are overpowered...

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Well (imo) an optimal line up has 1-2 healers. 3 is manageable depending on zone, but if you dont cap first you may have an extremely rough time re-taking the node.

 

But healing is never going to win a match, at best healing will be a stalemate and even in a stalemate I believe that kills are the determining factor.

 

Which is why you are seeing a lot of new strategies to start wzs. You dont just simply send 1 person to node and the rest to fight at mid. You have some going 4/0/4, 2/2/4, etc etc, because getting the first tick matters. Having strategy matters.

 

The problem is that most premades are cowardly and it's easy to come to the realization that if your guys aren't dying, you probably won't lose. Now, if you've 3 (or more) healers you're not going to have much DPS either, which means if the other side has any healing they also enjoy the same 'can't lose' advantage you have. And sure strategy matters but now a game of Alderaan would be like 'they got the first tick, so thanks for coming and DPS pretend you're trying to kill someone for the next 20 minutes." Is that really the kind of gameplay you want to encourage? Do you really want 3 DPS glue themselves to a node on Voidstar/Novare Coast and just cap nonstop from begining to end? It's a perfectly valid strategy in a heavy heal versus heavy heal situation, and you can even say good players will be better at chain capping (they presumably will know when is the best opportunity to do so and throw out CCs as necessary). Sure this is still a matter of skill, but it just feels weird to say our DPS was better at clicking the node than the other side which is why we won. Shouldn't we won because our DPS is actually better at killing their guys than their DPS?

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the first issue is the lack of voice chat in pugs.

the second is the 90% of players are terribads or are people who aren't at 100% in wz environment

people don't knowing the other classes(name of casts to interrupt)

 

if 2 dps focus a healer he's dead.

if the said healer is forced to heal just himself the others are killable.

a good burst from 2 players can shut you down (i know, i play healers, dps and tanks in pvp) i've seen this from every point of view possible, taunted the dps focusing my healer, joined another dps in taking down a healer (they go DOWN) have been focused by two dps..i died after casting self heals till resource went exausted.

 

sure that if on an operative i run all the time deployng HoTs and surgical probes and aoe on TA i will never stopped by all those keyboard turners, backpedallers clickers out there.

i've passed a whole VS chasing a sage and it's sure he didn't heal anyone but himself. but he never died lol.

 

and good teamplay is good.

so nerf sages and guardians because they can score alone in huttball in less than 20 seconds. it's the same issue.

if you cannot play wz go for the dailies on tatooine

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The problem is that most premades are cowardly and it's easy to come to the realization that if your guys aren't dying, you probably won't lose. Now, if you've 3 (or more) healers you're not going to have much DPS either, which means if the other side has any healing they also enjoy the same 'can't lose' advantage you have. And sure strategy matters but now a game of Alderaan would be like 'they got the first tick, so thanks for coming and DPS pretend you're trying to kill someone for the next 20 minutes." Is that really the kind of gameplay you want to encourage? Do you really want 3 DPS glue themselves to a node on Voidstar/Novare Coast and just cap nonstop from begining to end? It's a perfectly valid strategy in a heavy heal versus heavy heal situation, and you can even say good players will be better at chain capping (they presumably will know when is the best opportunity to do so and throw out CCs as necessary). Sure this is still a matter of skill, but it just feels weird to say our DPS was better at clicking the node than the other side which is why we won. Shouldn't we won because our DPS is actually better at killing their guys than their DPS?

 

I actually almost never use pre-mades. For the time being, I am in a PVE guild (no one else even has a full set of partisan let alone conqueror). I play against pub/imp premades. Sometimes my pug wins, sometimes my pug loses. Yesterday I was in a zone where the highest hps on my team were 25k, I currently have 30k as a sorc. It didnt matter that I was the top healer in the zone, it didnt matter that the other team had no healers, my team simply could do nothing to them.

 

And from my perspective, the team with the best dps is more likely to win than the team with the best healer.

 

If you have 6 dps that are better than my 6 dps, it likely wont matter if my 2 healers are better than your 2 healers. The reason is, you are outputting way more damage way quicker, so your healers (even though they are worse) can keep up with bad dps, where even the best healer cant outpace focused top end dps.

 

If anything good dps + good gear, is really the ticket to winning. But many dps are not running full expertise and then wondering why they cant kill the healer who has more hp and more expertise.

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You are basically arguing against yourself now. If innervate is on cool down, the only big heal I have is dark infusion, which you just said is a risky cast. Otherwise its dark heal (also channeled) which is not force efficient and crits for 40-50% less.

 

The only 3 spells I can use while moving and heal are 1) cleanse, 2) shield and 3) resurgence. Otherwise I have to stand there (even if reviv is 2 stacks, I still have to stand still)

 

Im just not sure how sorcs are overpowered...

 

You're not supposed to be energy neutral while eating focus fire - though the self heal and bubble HoT helps. Don't neglect polarity shift and overload either. If you're not taking the instant AOE heal on overload and spamming it you're doing it wrong - it's very good. You're going to keep innervate on cooldown even if people go to interrupt it because you're probably going to get at least 2 ticks and right after that you're going to follow it with resurgence into dark heal. You can use resurgence into innervate if you're not being focused but I think people don't realize that when you are being focused you want to use resurgence on dark heal for burst healing.

 

This is why sorcs benefit inordinately from having a second healer. They can go invincible and get healed to full, even while stunned, sit in their cuddle puddle with HoTs on them from an operative and consume themselves to regain mana, and when needed pop polarity shift for the anti-interrupt effect - particularly if their resolve bar is maxed.

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