Enzo/Cap and other "I-play-ranked-therefore-I-am-God" you do know all the best PvP players left within 3 months right? Ranking in swtor only shows you are play better than mediocre players - none of the competetive players came back to swtor or any of the competetive players at these levels started playing swtor later. No one playing top 10% in other games would come near swtor PvP (and yeah its a bellcurve, so that is a long way). Have fun with that "LEGACY".. We are all taken a breath by your above average status..

This is such an idiotic argument. If the best players left within three months, that means the ones who stayed have had SIX YEARS to play and learn.

This is such an idiotic argument. If the best players left within three months, that means the ones who stayed have had SIX YEARS to play and learn.

I agree with him though.

I played alongside the top of WoW for a while and even though the last of that was back in 2011.. those players were above and beyond anything you come across here even now.

That's not to say they couldn't also play at that level, but the need to improve has been gone for a while and without that people are rather lax. Myself included.

I think if you spend enough time getting to know someones playstyle though I think you can tell who would be capable of keeping up the pace and who would end up left behind.

And from what I've seen.. I think a lot of people in the current "top" would end up left behind.

Nah that is it. the top 1% in this game could not go near top 5% in other games at all. So there is no major "Expert Claim" to have. Being the least idiot in a room, does not make you genius.

 

They top never cared Jack **** about rank. They play games to overcome themselves and leaves, when their is nothing to accomplish. So when the first of them left, rest followed rapidly. And no one playing near top PvP in other games would go play swtor 12 hours a day for half a year. There would be 0 - ZERO challenge left after a 1-2 months, that is how "not high" the top is. There is simply not enough good players for this to evolve either.

 

 

The "REG stars" the "Casuals", "The retarded noobs only using basic attack", the "L2Ps" with no clue etc. We just don't care.. and play the game casual/competitive or what ever - we just play. But, we talk to eachother like normal people and not like cringeworthy BETA-males. And the best comments ever! The L2P arguments and sticking them to 1000+ players at a time, every single step of the way and then go complete WHINE-mode about RA.. you have to appreciate irony. And the "Snipers got counters.. Just use Diversion.." - best ever.

 

 

And lastly - none of us get offended by not being the top or swtor having no real 1%. We are whatever we are and words don't change it. If the best ranked provided insights instead of more or less null and void input, it would make sense.

Instead of talking out of your butt to some of the most talented players in this game why don’t you play them in ranked. If you think everyone is **** and worthless in their knowledge base in this game it should be a piece of cake. But let’s be honest, You won’t. You would clearly see the difference in skill level/ knowledge level and that’s not the point right? You just want to tell everyone that their bad and their experience means nothing right?

Ps - when you cred mind your old 8v8 “ranked guild” on bc, in a failed attempt to show at one point you might have been decent in this game then bash others for doing the same thing, that’s called being a hypocrite.

If you want to be a casual and play regs all day no one cares. Just be ready to defend your casual opinion to players who have a lot more insight in how the game works mechanically then you experience on the lower level of the spectrum.

I have not once ever said I didn't listen to competent ranked players, or casuals or noobs or whatever kind of people. Not once I even repeated twice - to you personally Kissing. That I COMPLETELY understand your point of view from a ranked perspective. Totally. not ½ or a 10th. I completely get it - we all do in fact.

 

But none of us "casuals" L2P, noobs - as we are being constantly coined. Came here spewing carbage about other people or refused to listen to anyone with reasoning behind what they said. We also understand 4v4s is the competetive format and no one here made it that way by choice. So we don't blaim anyone either.

 

But us "casuals" are also good enough, at this game, to understand how it functions at a core level and ranked being like what 5% of total PvP played? How can that be the standard of game balancing? No MMORPG has ever been made that way - ever.

 

I made a 3 page review recently to explain to especially "casual" players why SWTOR PvP is ****ed up for most players most of the time. Outside Trinity based, perfect balanced grps and premades - which is the majority of PvP. "The Story of PvP.." thread. Go read it.

 

Each time you repeat "show me your PvP creds or else" and say "your casual opinion" you are just embarrasing yourself. It is a BETA-male attitude.

 

 

That is that.

Thing is though all your ranting trying to discredit ranked players experience on a topic that we know a lot about, on survival because we play in a game mode is is purely designed around that fact is kinda sad. The beautiful part of all this is can easily prove that casual reg players don’t understand fully how to use all their dcds or how to fight effectively with their classes to the point that they need to to have a good understanding of how this game works mechanically. So let’s do it. Let’s set a date and let me gather up some ranked players and play your reg only team in team ranked. We can see how it goes. If you willing to say all that you should be also willing to defend your opinion and provide evidence.

I can fully support and prove what I am saying is correct. I wouldn’t say something on forums that I couldn’t defend. You say that regs and ranked have equal understanding of game mechanics so prove it.

Reply: Enzo/Cap and other "I-play-ranked-therefore-I-am-God"

Let me be super clear: the primary point here is that warzones are an absolute disaster for evaluating class balance for a variety of reasons. Objectives are a distraction. You control half of your team AT MOST and because it's just warzones there is little to no expectation that people will bring their best comps or their A game. There are absolutely dismal players everywhere. Nobody focuses damage. Good tanks who actually guard swap are uncommon, making classes that are good relative to others without a tank appear stronger than they really are (e.g. merc dps) or ones weak relative to others without a tank appear worse than they really are(e.g. operative healers). I think that's enough to make my point.

Trying to evaluate class balance while only playing warzones is like trying to come to serious conclusions based on middle school chemistry experiments. There's no consistency whatsoever and 8v8 has about as many uncontrolled variables as possible.

Group ranked has no objective distraction, no teammate RNG, and no tank RNG. Even halving the number of players makes understanding why what is happening is in fact happening easier to figure out. Simply put the environment is far more standardized and controlled - unlike warzones, it has as FEW uncontrolled variables as possible. When the best teams in the queue are facing off again and again, the teams getting the short end of the stick will almost always start adjusting their strategy and their composition to try to get an edge. They're basically running an experiment to figure out what are the handful of best comps for the current state of class balance. There is no parallel in warzones.

I'll give a specific example and use myself as the person learning something this way. I didn't really play before 4.0. Before I started playing group ranked I probably would have said that merc dps really only have one serious problem: they die too easily, like most other players just doing warzones. Given what bioware did to mercs in 5.0 it would seem they fell into exactly the same trap. It wasn't until playing group ranked that I came to realize merc dps' biggest issue was actually that their damage gets utterly ruined when they're focused very hard. This problem simply does not rear its head enough in warzones to be easily noticeable. And when you're too busy dying because you never get guard in regs why would you notice? Many other observations are difficult to notice. In a similar vein, the magnitude of issues you do notice can be either exaggerated or downplayed.

That's the argument. And it's a fact.

Mauds I think are in a great place, same with Jugs.

Could you easily get misled into thinking juggernauts are "in a great place" along with marauders if you just play regs? Absolutely.

Could you easily get misled into thinking that if you actually play ranked? Absolutely not. And you don't need to be caprica - you just need to press the queue button for a while. Will this give him even a moments pause in his inevitable rebuttal? I think probably not.

I agree with him though.

I played alongside the top of WoW for a while and even though the last of that was back in 2011.. those players were above and beyond anything you come across here even now.

 

That's not to say they couldn't also play at that level, but the need to improve has been gone for a while and without that people are rather lax. Myself included.

 

I think if you spend enough time getting to know someones playstyle though I think you can tell who would be capable of keeping up the pace and who would end up left behind.

 

And from what I've seen.. I think a lot of people in the current "top" would end up left behind.

While the comment about the player skill may be true, I am not disputing that, I am against the notion that because the people who were best at launch left in a few months automatically means everyone in the game is above average at best. Ignoring a timeline of around six years makes for an insanely weak argument and that seems to be exactly what he is doing.

While the comment about the player skill may be true, I am not disputing that, I am against the notion that because the people who were best at launch left in a few months automatically means everyone in the game is above average at best. Ignoring a timeline of around six years makes for an insanely weak argument and that seems to be exactly what he is doing.

That being said, swtor has had such a massive exodus of players over the years that it's invariably more true here than it is for most games. But I agree, it doesn't mean everyone remaining is mediocre and would have been walked over by people who already quit. It assumes the skill threshold necessary to have valuable insight is way, WAY higher than it actually is. It's really quite low. We don't need to contract WoW arena teams to come play SWTOR to tell us what to think about the state of the game.

You can't even really get that good at the PVP in an mmo in just 3 months.

This is a meme in literally every *remotely* competitive game ever. The best players early in the game are deified and the impact of years of slow improvement by the players hanging around is ignored or downplayed.

 

That being said, swtor has had such a massive exodus of players over the years that it's invariably more true here than it is for most games. But I agree, it doesn't mean everyone remaining is mediocre and would have been walked over by people who already quit.

 

You literally can't even get really get that good at the PVP in an mmo in just 3 months.

Fair point.

I don't discredit Ranked players at all.. but the amount of insults flying around and out of them. Sometimes enough is enough.

 

Ranked PvPs are super cool. But the arrogance is focking unbelieveable from most (not all)- Get a grip of the focking World.

 

No sane person would listen to all the explicit or implicit insutls thrown towards 1000+ players at a time and do nothing.. Old warriors from the camp, would throw them naked infront of a grizzly.

How is saying saying ranked players have more mechanical experience to analyze how dcds work in this game over strictly casual players insulting? Is that worth being upset about? If that is insulting then there is a lot of upset people all around the world because that statement can be copy and pasted into almost every context imaginable.

Does a mechanic have more experience fixing up cars then a baker?

Does a progressional basketball player has more experience scoring over a college basketball team player?

Does a vet have more experience helping a hurt animal over a geologist? Should I continue?

I thought it was pretty much a fact. And let’s be clear there is many insults being thrown around they aren’t coming from me. I have nothing against casual players in this game but to say they are in the same ball park as players when it comes to dcd or class knowledge has yet to be proven to me.

I do feel it necessary to point out that maras can't really do any self healing. Guardian may have gotten a ninja nerf to focused defense with 5.0 but it still does a self heal, the issue is focus.

 

For what it's worth sins and even PTs technically have self heals too, though all 3 melt (or stealth out) under focus.

Lol do you play a dps PT/Vg what self heals???

While the comment about the player skill may be true, I am not disputing that, I am against the notion that because the people who were best at launch left in a few months automatically means everyone in the game is above average at best. Ignoring a timeline of around six years makes for an insanely weak argument and that seems to be exactly what he is doing.

And I am not disputing that

You reap as you sow.

 

 

The "debate" (Cascade of insults thrown and everyone not hailing the Ranked-is-God wagon) has ended.

 

Insults rebutted. No one is listening to self procalimed "Ranked Gods" in a game with no top 5% present. It is ridiculous. People form their own opinions, argue, what ever, agree, disagree, makes a points and move on.

 

 

I am just happy that it is not everyone, that need to fling insults toward other people to make conversation.

You been s-keying every opportunity to prove that any of your assumptions are correct. Your welcome to prove me wrong any time you want. I’ll be waiting in team queue for you.

Cheers.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Could you easily get misled into thinking juggernauts are "in a great place" along with marauders if you just play regs? Absolutely.

 

Could you easily get misled into thinking that if you actually play ranked? Absolutely not. And you don't need to be caprica - you just need to press the queue button for a while. Will this give him even a moments pause in his inevitable rebuttal? I think probably not.

Well, there are some problems with balancing only around TR though.

1) There is no matchmaking in this game and

2) Where there is matchmaking it doesn't force trinity.

So when you balance a class you have to take all possible scenarios into account. How this class performs with a tank/healer, only with a healer, without them etc. This of course leads to other problems such as overtuned defences for some classes such as mercs.The buff to their defences was based on their performance in SR which made them gods in regs. Now, if you try to balance them around TR only in their current state it will turn them again into gods for both SR and regs.

What I am trying to say is that you can't balance classes around one format only without taking into account the others. It will result in a mess and it has been proven so.

Not to mention*that there are some abilities that are very strong in some scenarios while there are somewhat irrelevant in others ( see operatives potential to stall and deny a cap in objective based wz. That ability is of no use in arenas, so how to you balance that?)

Certainly the fact that there is only one guy dealing with class balance doesn't help. It also doesn't help that said guy seems like he doesn't know the classes very well (see the nerf they tried to implement for carnage, 2 stacks of ferocity only).

Another huge issue here is that arenas and objective based wz's are so different that make any balance effort even harder.

So where does that leave us?

We can only suggest solutions via the forums for obvious offenders I guess, (such as ruthless aggressor) each one from his point of view as long as he can back it up with reasonable arguments. Saying that "you don't play TR you don't matter" is dumb.What may be/not be a problem in TR, may be/not be a problem elsewhere so it has to be fixed (see skank tanks). I play SR and I want my class to be able to perform well under every scenario. If it underperforms there why should I care if it performs well in TR? I don't. So I will demand a buff and that buff must come in way that it doesn't break TR or regs ( because there are people there playing too and try to have fun) under every scenario. And that's the tricky part...

Well, there are some problems with balancing only around TR though.

1. this has nothing to do with my point

2. the degree to which balancing TR is at odds with balancing other modes is overblown

The only axe I have to grind here is that if you just play regs odds are very good you have huge blindspots about the state of class balance.

Juggernaut dps are deadweight in literally every game mode and the only way a sane person could come to believe otherwise is by never playing ranked on one. They would be deadweight in ranked 8v8 for exactly the same reasons they're deadweight in ranked arenas.

SWTOR is largely comparable to WoW though. Icons are different, classes have another name.. but the basis is the same.

 

It didnt even take me half a year to join a well respected 8v8 guilds main roster. If you already have close to a decade of mechanical experience all you have to do is adjust to the aestethics and stuff unique to this game. Which honestly isn't all that much.

For example, I played the first few months after launch before quitting for years and I happened to choose a trash class for my first 50, more or less forcing a reroll. And leveling actually took some time.

You can't even really get that good at the PVP in an mmo in just 3 months.

SWTOR is largely comparable to WoW though. Icons are different, classes have another name.. but the basis is the same.

It didnt even take me half a year to join a well respected 8v8 guilds main roster. If you already have close to a decade of mechanical experience all you have to do is adjust to the aestethics and stuff unique to this game. Which honestly isn't all that much.

1. this has nothing to do with my point

2. the degree to which balancing TR is at odds with balancing other modes is overblown

 

The only axe I have to grind here is that if you just play regs odds are very good you have huge blindspots about the state of class balance.

I am not saying that TR shouldn't be the primary factor when you balance classes. I am saying it shouldn't be the only factor.

As for the blindspots you may have as a reg player I agree, but that doesn't mean that a reg only player or a SR only player is wrong by default. That goes both ways too, a TR player doesn't mean that he is right in everything he says. Having the information is one thing, interpret them correctly and reach conclussions is another. Odds are that the more informed is right but you can't take that for granted.

I am not trying to argue aggressively here but if you reply to someone (not personally you) "you don't play TR **** you are bad" then the whole thread goes 🍌 🍌 🍌 and we end up having 2 threads of the same issue with 70 pages total of trash because these full of drama threads tend to attract trolls and then the ship goes down (ex. I play mara in TR without utilities and also drunk and I win so mara is so op).

Hope this clears up things.

I am not saying that TR shouldn't be the primary factor when you balance classes. I am saying it shouldn't be the only factor.

There is no balance anywhere right now. Not in TR, not in SR, not in Regs and not in PvE.

For PvE it isn't as big of a deal as long as stuff is close enough.

If they would make classes balanced in a teamfight scenario,

at least people would have the sense that there is balance somewhere. Which is really all you need.

I don't care if my class is godaweful or godlike on it's own. As long as it can perform fairly in a team setting.