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Where are these 'ultra powerful low timer cooldowns' you speak of?


Darth_Bond

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I keep hearing people blaber on and on about the great low cd defensive cooldowns that sin tanks have, where are these magical cooldowns that make us viable and special? Iv only seen one, dark ward, i looked at all the spells sins get till 50, there are no more....the rest are just the same as the cooldowns jugs and vanguards get...same timers...same cooldowns....and i mean the defensive cooldowns, wither doesnt count, its just a threat generator...
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Resilience is on a 60 sec base CD and gets reduces to ~45 sec CD in actual play and it provides you with 200% Resistance chance for 5 seconds. Deflection is on a 120 sec CD and provides you with 50% Defense for 12 seconds.

 

Compare this to Reactive Shield, which is on a 2 min CD, but only provides 25% DR for 12 seconds (the same uptime as Deflection, lower than Resilience, and provides less mitigation than either). Saber Ward and Warding Call are both on 180 sec CDs; even combined, they provide less mitigation than Deflection and Resilience provide.

 

The Shadow CDs are well and truly amazing. They've got low CDs (120 seconds and ~45 seconds compared to 120 second, or 180 seconds and 180 seconds) and they're just as powerful as full tank CDs. Their only "weakness" is that they're specific. Reactive Shield is on a short CD but it's weakness is that it's the weakest of the tank CDs (not to mention that it's the only true tank CD that VGs get). Saber Ward is amazing (Deflection with a little bit of Resilience added), but it's on a 3 min CD (which is "long"); Warding Call is largely mediocre (it's 40% DR post mitigation, not pre-mitigation like Reactive Shield) and it's also on a 3 min CD.

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Reactive shield isn't that bad. Ends up being almost 60% reduction instead of 25% in damage taken (character shed DR goes from 56% (with healer armor bonus) to 81%). However it's only a 30% reduction to into/else damage.

 

And oil spill is effectively 20% defense on a ~30% uptime. Also can be used when you are not tanking, as, funnily enough, it'll do more for your sin/jugg cotank than it will for you due to their better defense.

 

 

 

None of this goes against sin/shadow CD's being better, but I think the weakness for VG/PT is rather their vulnerability to int/ele damage, especially for cool downs, as our cool downs do much less and nothing against that damage.

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Reactive shield isn't that bad. Ends up being almost 60% reduction instead of 25% in damage taken (character shed DR goes from 56% (with healer armor bonus) to 81%). However it's only a 30% reduction to into/else damage.

 

And oil spill is effectively 20% defense on a ~30% uptime. Also can be used when you are not tanking, as, funnily enough, it'll do more for your sin/jugg cotank than it will for you due to their better defense.

 

 

 

None of this goes against sin/shadow CD's being better, but I think the weakness for VG/PT is rather their vulnerability to int/ele damage, especially for cool downs, as our cool downs do much less and nothing against that damage.

 

I agree with you there if i hit my Oil Slick while my juggy co-tank is tanking Foreman Crusher while he frenzies he gets hit maybe 3 times the entire frenzy. Also it is underrated cd i notice a lot looking back at logs i do dodge a fair amount of incoming attacks while its active

 

I do have a sin aswell and i'll tell you hands down Force Shroud is without a doubt the most useful CD in the game. Can bypass so much dmg in so many fights. Toths aoe jump- negated by force shroud, the lighting phase in TFB HM Dread Guard fight all dmg -negated, hoping back up on to SC tank and your healers is Los bang 5 secs of no dmg, karagga aoe taunt all the mous droids and force shroud no dmg, assassin droids on the puzzle in EC.... Those are only a few example but in almost every end game fight there is a use for it that allows you to avoid tons of incoming damage if used at the right points.

Edited by wetslampigduex
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Reactive shield isn't that bad. Ends up being almost 60% reduction instead of 25% in damage taken (character shed DR goes from 56% (with healer armor bonus) to 81%). However it's only a 30% reduction to into/else damage.

 

Compare Reactive Shield's 25% DR to Deflection or Saber Ward's 50% Defense: 25% additional DR equates to ~50% improved survivability; 50% additional Defense equates to ~140% improved survivability.

 

And oil spill is effectively 20% defense on a ~30% uptime. Also can be used when you are not tanking, as, funnily enough, it'll do more for your sin/jugg cotank than it will for you due to their better defense.

 

Oil Spill/Smoke Screen isn't really a survivability CD; it's the mechanical equivalent of the 5% acc debuff that both Guardians and Shadows get that VGs don't. It provides some marginal additional survivability when you use it in combination with another tank (since you're getting 5% at all times and 20% for 30% of the time), but, on their own, the two are a wash (and this is assuming that you use Smoke Screen on CD).

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Ah Yea that makes sense. Works out to a bit more that 5% if used on CD, but not by much. Guardians don't get the damage reduction though, but I'm fairly certain the accuracy reduction is better anyway. Have always been jealous of sins getting both debuffs.

 

I still enjoy facetanking on the ptech tho, especially as I don't tank as main spec anymore, so its nice and easy when I do have to switch over and tank if someone doesn't show.

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Force shroud is one of the best cooldowns in the game. Immunity to force and tech, conditional cleanse, and immunity to most effects. If used correctly, it works as a second CC break, a knockback preventative, and damage immunity to the most common (and powerful) damage in raids. Deflection honestly doesn't seem as useful to me, outside of maybe the writhing horror, Ciphas of the dread guard (since he's SO HARD to tank) and terror from beyond (which is also easy to tank, even through the burn phase). The most annoying boss for me to tank as a sin is Kephess the Undying, since he does so much tech physical damage, so my defense and IE resistance don't mean crap.
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I keep hearing people blaber on and on about the great low cd defensive cooldowns that sin tanks have, where are these magical cooldowns that make us viable and special? Iv only seen one, dark ward, i looked at all the spells sins get till 50, there are no more....the rest are just the same as the cooldowns jugs and vanguards get...same timers...same cooldowns....and i mean the defensive cooldowns, wither doesnt count, its just a threat generator...

 

Altogether, assassins have 4 defensive cooldowns: Deflection (weapon damage), Force Shroud (tech damage), Overload Saber (lockout-free medpack), and Force Cloak. I use Overload Saber fairly aggressively, and I'm always surprised at assassin/shadow tanks who don't. Force Cloak is another uncommon one, but primarily due to the fact that it debuffs healing. It has to be used very carefully with full knowledge of what you're about to do to your party. I use it absolutely every time I tank NiM Kephess (twice in the same fight if my co-tank dies in the last phase). Similarly, I use it every time on NiM Toth and Zorn (to reset the medpack lockout), fairly frequently on HM Dread Guard, and every time on HM Writhing Horror (to avoid pulling off my co-tank at the start). Also, there's all the situational uses when you need to get someone up and the battle rez is down.

 

No question though, the bread and butter is Deflection and Force Shroud. Use and abuse the heck out of those cooldowns. A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).

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A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).

 

Indeed, and I've yet to get a handle on this. Is there a guide written specifically for Shadow tanks that advises on when to use Resilience on certain bosses' attacks?

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Altogether, assassins have 4 defensive cooldowns: Deflection (weapon damage), Force Shroud (tech damage), Overload Saber (lockout-free medpack), and Force Cloak. I use Overload Saber fairly aggressively, and I'm always surprised at assassin/shadow tanks who don't. Force Cloak is another uncommon one, but primarily due to the fact that it debuffs healing. It has to be used very carefully with full knowledge of what you're about to do to your party. I use it absolutely every time I tank NiM Kephess (twice in the same fight if my co-tank dies in the last phase). Similarly, I use it every time on NiM Toth and Zorn (to reset the medpack lockout), fairly frequently on HM Dread Guard, and every time on HM Writhing Horror (to avoid pulling off my co-tank at the start). Also, there's all the situational uses when you need to get someone up and the battle rez is down.

 

No question though, the bread and butter is Deflection and Force Shroud. Use and abuse the heck out of those cooldowns. A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).

 

Overcharge Sabre not Overload Sabre.

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Indeed, and I've yet to get a handle on this. Is there a guide written specifically for Shadow tanks that advises on when to use Resilience on certain bosses' attacks?

 

No. There are TORParse combat logs, however, which form a decent starting point.

 

For HC (HM+), here are my thoughts:

Z&T - Overall low DTPS, so not essential to micromanage. Maximize Shroud/Resilience uptime on Zorn, and cycle between on-use relic and Deflection on Toth (covering gaps with Absorb adrenal).

 

Tanks - If tanking Stormcaller, Shroud shortly after engaging and after each defensive systems when you resume normal tanking. There's a predictable Electric Discharge shortly after each engage point, which is the largest spike of damage, and you'll also negate at least 1 regular attack.

 

Stormcaller's damage is insanely predictable. He uses Zap Attack every 3s or 2s after Electric Discharge. He uses Electric Discharge about every 11 seconds, but that is frequently interrupted by DD or defensive systems. He uses Double Destruction 15 seconds after each tanking phase starts (and obviously no attacks while DD is channeling). He doesn't actually resume attacking you for 10s after beginning to channel DD, so you have a while to sit and spin at that point.

 

During floor tanking phase, you take a hit from Mortar Volley every 3s. "Lightning rods" land every 6s (coincide with every other Mortar Volley hit) I believe, but it's been a couple weeks since I've done EC and I never explicitly timed it.

 

I've never actually tanked Firebrand (never saw a reason to, and taunt swapping is easier than tank swapping), so I don't have specific data to help there. However, as he's pure M/R, Resilience/Shroud is obviously not of any great use.

 

Vorgath - Use to negate damage from Sticky Grenade. Everything else is M/R. If anything is hitting in the minefield, there are deeper problems.

 

Kephess - The most obvious one is on Kephess himself, when he leaps into the air. You can see his shadow on the ground before he lands (assuming you have shadows on) to predict the exact moment of landing. Hitting Shroud as he lands will negate the damage from Empowered Slash and the first couple ticks of Savage Wounding (assuming, of course, you've taunted him). In a pinch, it can also be used if you misplace a purple circle and need to cross through one whilst still affected by Breath of the Masters.

 

Another useful time to use Resilience/Shroud is immediately upon engaging Baradium Bombers. If you start with a Shroud+Taunt, you can nearly always force the first Rocket Blast onto yourself and negate it. After that point, the BB is probably chain-stunned until dead, but avoiding the first Rocket Blast can be tricky.

 

Yet another is for the Trandoshans, you can Resilience/Shroud > Slow Time/Wither for extra threat on the Trenchgutters when they pop if you're called upon to tank them. EC NiM strategy is generally very different from HM and this may not be relevant depending on how you handle it.

 

You could also use it to blank Channeled Pulse from the Pulsar Droids, especially if you're intentionally lagging behind during the first or second changeovers to increase the odds of drawing any Rail Shots during the swap.

 

I'm out of time for the moment, so I'll append this at some point (or someone else can) with TFB HM data and/or EC NiM changes. I'm leaving out EC and KP for the time being because they're probably not a major concern of progression raiders, and even the high DTPS of KP NiM is not a detriment to clearing it easily.

Edited by Omophorus
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  • 3 weeks later...
Altogether, assassins have 4 defensive cooldowns: Deflection (weapon damage), Force Shroud (tech damage), Overload Saber (lockout-free medpack), and Force Cloak. I use Overload Saber fairly aggressively, and I'm always surprised at assassin/shadow tanks who don't. Force Cloak is another uncommon one, but primarily due to the fact that it debuffs healing. It has to be used very carefully with full knowledge of what you're about to do to your party. I use it absolutely every time I tank NiM Kephess (twice in the same fight if my co-tank dies in the last phase). Similarly, I use it every time on NiM Toth and Zorn (to reset the medpack lockout), fairly frequently on HM Dread Guard, and every time on HM Writhing Horror (to avoid pulling off my co-tank at the start). Also, there's all the situational uses when you need to get someone up and the battle rez is down.

 

No question though, the bread and butter is Deflection and Force Shroud. Use and abuse the heck out of those cooldowns. A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).

 

do you have a video of using force cloak as a CD ? as i see it there is no upside to using it .. you drop aggro, so someone else gets hit ( and not the tank ? ), then you cannot taunt for a few seconds because you cannot be healed ( so someone else is still getting hammered ) ... and that is to reset your medpack ? which you shouldn't need in the first place ?

 

now Kephess specifically is a different story .. its not as much about using it as a CD as it helps with too slow/ too fast taunts from your other tank.

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Another useful time to use Resilience/Shroud is immediately upon engaging Baradium Bombers. If you start with a Shroud+Taunt, you can nearly always force the first Rocket Blast onto yourself and negate it. After that point, the BB is probably chain-stunned until dead, but avoiding the first Rocket Blast can be tricky.

 

Full offense is the way to go on the Bombers. Force Pull the bomber in, Force stun, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Interrupt. Spinning kick, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Having 9% in Nerve Wracking really helps killing those guys fast. Same goes for the Trandoshan leader guy.

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Full offense is the way to go on the Bombers. Force Pull the bomber in, Force stun, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Interrupt. Spinning kick, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Having 9% in Nerve Wracking really helps killing those guys fast. Same goes for the Trandoshan leader guy.

 

No argument, but even so doing frequently leads to a single Rocket Blast going off for 10k+ damage. Popping Shroud just before pulling blanks that off. It's not like there's a time (other than 3rd bomber) when you'd need Shroud back up again before it would be off CD, so no good reason not to. 3rd bomber obviously you'd just tough it out to have Shroud available for the first Empowered Slash (unless you have 2 Sins and the other is going to be eating it).

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Altogether, assassins have 4 defensive cooldowns: Deflection (weapon damage), Force Shroud (tech damage), Overload Saber (lockout-free medpack), and Force Cloak. I use Overload Saber fairly aggressively, and I'm always surprised at assassin/shadow tanks who don't. Force Cloak is another uncommon one, but primarily due to the fact that it debuffs healing. It has to be used very carefully with full knowledge of what you're about to do to your party. I use it absolutely every time I tank NiM Kephess (twice in the same fight if my co-tank dies in the last phase). Similarly, I use it every time on NiM Toth and Zorn (to reset the medpack lockout), fairly frequently on HM Dread Guard, and every time on HM Writhing Horror (to avoid pulling off my co-tank at the start). Also, there's all the situational uses when you need to get someone up and the battle rez is down.

 

No question though, the bread and butter is Deflection and Force Shroud. Use and abuse the heck out of those cooldowns. A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).

 

I have to disagree with you on the Force Cloak, in no way does it qualify as a defensive CD. You can count it as an advantage/exploit to get a medpack CD back or to circumvent the BR limit by doing an out of combat rez all you want, but it does not provide you with a buff to help you immediately relieve incoming pressure without compromising the raid itself. Listing Force Cloak as something good to use is exactly the line of thought that got Assassin tanks a bad name in my old guild and throughout my old server because some ******s thought it would be a good idea to actively use it (some serious and some because they thought it was funny)....

 

The rest though I agree with, the three CDs of the Assassin are Force Shroud, Deflection and OS with the main short CD is Dark Ward, and expert use of FS and Deflection makes for incredible results compared to the other tank classes in the same situation.

Edited by Sivar
Brain fart
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I have to disagree with you on the Force Cloak, in no way does it qualify as a defensive CD. You can count it as an advantage/exploit to get a medpack CD back or to circumvent the BR limit by doing an out of combat rez all you want, but it does not provide you with a buff to help you immediately relieve incoming pressure without compromising the raid itself. Listing Force Cloak as something good to use is exactly the line of thought that got Assassin tanks a bad name in my old guild and throughout my old server because some ******s thought it would be a good idea to actively use it (some serious and some because they thought it was funny)....

 

The rest though I agree with, the two CDs of the Assassin are Force Shroud and Deflection and the main short CD is Dark Ward, and expert use of the main two makes for incredible results compared to the other tank classes in the same situation.

 

You're missing Battle Readiness(and the Assassin equivalent. 10% HP is nothing to scoff at, or the added bonus to it as well. It's not as powerful at the other 2 but it's still quite nice.

 

Personally I love Force Speed more than the leaps as well, since I can "kite" a boss if a healer dies or something is happening that they can't focus on me.

Edited by ckoneful
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I have to disagree with you on the Force Cloak, in no way does it qualify as a defensive CD. You can count it as an advantage/exploit to get a medpack CD back or to circumvent the BR limit by doing an out of combat rez all you want, but it does not provide you with a buff to help you immediately relieve incoming pressure without compromising the raid itself. Listing Force Cloak as something good to use is exactly the line of thought that got Assassin tanks a bad name in my old guild and throughout my old server because some ******s thought it would be a good idea to actively use it (some serious and some because they thought it was funny)....

 

The rest though I agree with, the three CDs of the Assassin are Force Shroud, Deflection and OS with the main short CD is Dark Ward, and expert use of FS and Deflection makes for incredible results compared to the other tank classes in the same situation.

 

It can be very useful.

Let's take the Dread Guards in Asation HM for example, when Kel'Sara casts Force Leech and you still have the probes on yourself from your Op/Scoundrel healer, FC will put a debuff on you that grants you almost 0 healing and you immediately lose aggro, you can then proceed to just click those probes away and step back in.

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It can be very useful.

Let's take the Dread Guards in Asation HM for example, when Kel'Sara casts Force Leech and you still have the probes on yourself from your Op/Scoundrel healer, FC will put a debuff on you that grants you almost 0 healing and you immediately lose aggro, you can then proceed to just click those probes away and step back in.

 

Force Shroud gives you 100% protection against the "death by healing" phenomenon. When I run with shadow tanks in this fight, I usually tell them to pop it as soon as Force Leech lands, just to cover healing mistakes. It also gives them time to click off HoTs and what-not.

 

The problem with using Force Cloak is the cooldown is too long to use at every Force Leech, whereas Force Shroud will always be up.

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Force Shroud gives you 100% protection against the "death by healing" phenomenon. When I run with shadow tanks in this fight, I usually tell them to pop it as soon as Force Leech lands, just to cover healing mistakes. It also gives them time to click off HoTs and what-not.

 

The problem with using Force Cloak is the cooldown is too long to use at every Force Leech, whereas Force Shroud will always be up.

 

Didn't know that, good to know.

However it's still an additional cooldown for this fight.

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