Now, I know people who were used to face-rolling everything are going to disagree.

 

And I am going to sound like a bit of an old fogey here.

 

But when the game launched... it played VERY similarly to what it does now.

 

And if there are any vets like me, it could be they've forgotten.

 

 

I got a VERY good taste of it last night, as I ran 5 Veteran Mode Flashpoints (was trying for some tacticals, but alas to no avail even after a long night of 5 vet flashpoints followed by running the Onderon daily and weekly).

 

And I quickly learned that after having it so easy for so long...and as much as I hate being that guy to say it because everyone hates that guy....

 

Everyone needs to "learn to play" all over again... and I include myself in that.

 

Yes, the content is longer. Yes, enemies are harder to kill and do more damage. Know what I found out works?

 

Tactics.

Knowing the fight.

 

It really struck home when for my 3rd Flashpoint, I ended up with the Foundry, which has some mechanics to it. We had 2 of our team getting wiped by boss 1 because they were used to no damage and just facetanking everything as a dps. We got crushed several times by HK-47 because NO ONE knew how the fight was supposed to go, as they were used to just stand and blast. It was eye-opening.

 

And what was even more eye-opening was when I reached back into my memory, and started guiding people on the team using the tactics we used to use when the game launched, and seeing....they still work. And you know what?

 

It was a LOT more fun.

 

I didn't think it would be, but actually having to be challenged, even though we all tend to act like we just want to get through to the gear, is actually what makes the game a ton of fun.

 

But I also know that if I weren't there, or didn't remember the fights, a group like that could have ended up incredibly frustrating. I am brushing up on all the old tactics for the Flashpoints. I would suggest others who were used to easy mode do the same. It's going to matter now. Its going to matter that everyone clear low grade trash first before focusing on the Silver or Gold Chevron mob now. It's going to matter that when fighting multiple gold or silver chevron mobs, you coordinate everyone to attack the same target first.

 

Tactics matter again.

 

And I am as much reminding myself as I am all of you.

 

But I gotta tell you...

 

I haven't felt that satisfied in finishing a Foundry run in a long damn time.

 

The "game" is finally back in the game.

Edited October 28, 2019 by ZionHalcyon

The only issue is not all parts are balanced properly yet !! (hopefully these will be fixed fast considering we reported them 4 weeks ago on the pts )

The only issue is not all parts are balanced properly yet !! (hopefully these will be fixed fast considering we reported them 4 weeks ago on the pts )

 

Ha - yes, I don't mean to include the bugs. That walker KotFE fix can't come soon enough.

 

Is it wrong that I hope one day they go back through KotFE and reduce the number of mob groupings by at least 1/3?

 

That section was always an unfun deathmarch even pre-6.0...

Overall, I think the difficulty on leveling content is okay. There are a few places where the sync feels overtuned. Some of the heroics that were soloable before are now a slog at best, and nearly impossible at worst. Perhaps doing a balance pass on those specific ones would be the most appropriate response though

Ha - yes, I don't mean to include the bugs. That walker KotFE fix can't come soon enough.

 

Is it wrong that I hope one day they go back through KotFE and reduce the number of mob groupings by at least 1/3?

 

That section was always an unfun deathmarch even pre-6.0...

 

Korriban Incursion on vet mode has a nasty group of trash mobs that can kill you every time. The ones after the first boss at the top of the lift with the explosive boxes around them. Their combined Dps at the start is so strong that you can die in 5 secs and that’s with DCDs and 2 lvl 50 comp healers.

The only way past is to make sure you kill one or two before you die. Then when you attack again they melt as fast as they used too. So it’s not that their health is too high, just how much damage they do as one big group,

 

I’m sure there are other instances like this through out the older parts of the game.

It definitely feels that way, Zion. I legitimately hope that the devs keep finding that balance, right now I've just been doing the story on my characters but much like Ossus it definitely feels like my character can die if I'm not smart in certain areas, or boss fights (Especially in the new Flashpoint, even in Solo Mode I can die if I don't go get my kolto!), so keep at it Devs. It'll allow for players to know whether or not they're ready for endgame. As well as give them a means in which to train.

As well as give them a means in which to train.

 

Now all we need is an incentive for people to learn to play and train for pvp in lowbies and Mids before they reach end game.

I still think Eternal Championship is one of the best pieces of solo challenge the devs have made and the best training for solo players to try end game stuff. I haven't gotten the chance to try it after 6.0 and am curious how it holds up in difficulty now.

*shrug* to each their own. I just know I'm not even bothering with daily areas and heroics anymore because they are no longer fun or worth doing. I'm playing through Onslaught on my characters and have already unsubscribed. I have nothing to do with my main anymore. She can't do the daily areas like Section X because the H4s have been retuned, the veteran flashpoints she did for fun are no longer doable, and I find no fun in "danger" in taking three times as long to see a mob go down or watching my health bar decrease.

 

The change has also made it easier for players to be harassed and ninjaed by others since you can no longer click the objective first and then fight if you want to live, so anyone can swoop in and steal it.

 

As a solo player they have sent a very strong message that players like me are no longer welcome in the game.

Edited October 28, 2019 by IoNonSoEVero

I haven't but sampled a few hours this weekend and that was limited to my Level 20 (now 26) Sith Inquisitor on Balmorra, but the instanced Heroics were definitely more challenging than they have been in a long time for me, and after 3 consecutive spankings by one particular group in one of the Heroics, I stopped to think through what I was doing, and finally got past that group of nefarious rebels. The rest of that particular heroic, I paid much better attention and got through it without getting killed again-- and overall, the Heroics all played great for me and reminded me of the pre-healbot days.

 

I am (so far) enjoying the increased challenge as a casual solo— admittedly, in a pre-70 or pre-75 scenario where this particular alt is concerned.

 

Oh, and going back to normal enemies after a Heroic feels sooooooo much more easier, helping me appreciate the distinction again.

Dear ZionHalcyon, while I agree with you on most points which you brought up (which our viewpoints are also aligned with respect to other game design issues in other threads) here, I have to disagree on your approach.

 

What you need is more difficulty and that can be served better by having the dev to implement a level higher than Master Mode FP say let's call it Super Master Mode FP where you and all like-minded players who are highly competent and skill and enjoy a low lag of play environment with top-notched game computer with fast processing power and who tolerate no nonsense than a real challenge in-game where if you don't wipe at least once on each run of FP, it would be insult.

 

There is really no need to drag every players down the pit by having Vet mode FP bumped up in difficulty to serve your need. Different players have different need for challenges as well as capability in terms of bio-motor-skill and hardware processing power and lag environment. The positive approach is to create a new space (aka Super Master Mode FP) to cater to those who enjoy high level of challenges and not the negative approach of squeezing the space (aka Vet Mode FP) of the weaker players. We are in no competition here. (I also don't think the weaker players are asking for the stronger player to educate them on how to play the game nor the stronger player is obliged to teach the weaker players on how to play. All that is needed is to find like-minded individual to team up to play. Imposing mindset on how it should be played is not required and non-constructive.) Again, I am not disagreeing with you but only the approach taken. To you, you feel "just right finally" but to me I don't feel it "right" at all because of the negative approach.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Einobi

*shrug* to each their own. I just know I'm not even bothering with daily areas and heroics anymore because they are no longer fun or worth doing. I'm playing through Onslaught on my characters and have already unsubscribed. I have nothing to do with my main anymore. As a solo player they have sent a very strong message that players like me are no longer welcome in the game.

 

as much as there's a part of me that would just love to dismiss you with a snide comment, I really can't because up till this point before 6.0 and before Keith took over, bioware's heart really wasn't in to making it real MMO. They essentially enabled all the solo players enabled everything towards them.

 

Now that they are going back to their roots and bringing SWTOR back to being a real MMO after being solo oriented for so long, I think there are going to be quite a few people who are upset and will leave and I completely understand their position.

 

If anything, that was one of the things that made this game really hard to figure out come up because it was billed as an MMO but they really started focusing on solo play starting with forged alliance. And if you believe what Nyman, a former tester set, BioWare never really wanted to make an MMO in the first place.

 

and yet here they are getting back to the roots of the originally launched game and the people who were catered to for the past 3? 4? Years are upset over it, I really can't blame them, even if I do believe in my heart of hearts the direction and change was necessary for the overall health and growth of the game.

 

It's an interesting dynamic because I'm seeing a lot of players who trend more towards solo play mentality get fed up and leave. At the same time, I am seeing about twice as many people in game at least who have been away for a while and now that they've come back are really enjoying themselves and the grouping aspect. It's a shame that both audiences couldn't be kept but I also think the wants of both audiences are diametrically opposed to each other and BioWare picked of the larger audience.

 

Bioware's outreach hasn't gone unnoticed by a lot of former players who left over this story direction.

 

That being said, we will have to see if BioWare can keep the people here. Although I will say the increase in challenge certainly helps.

 

Still feel bad for the departing solo players, but not enough to suggest BioWare make any concessions.

Edited October 28, 2019 by ZionHalcyon

Dear ZionHalcyon, while I agree with you on most points which you brought up (which our viewpoints are also aligned with respect to other game design issues in other threads) here, I have to disagree on your approach.

 

What you need is more difficulty and that can be served better by having the dev to implement a level higher than Master Mode FP say let's call it Super Master Mode FP where you and all like-minded players who are highly competent and skill and enjoy a low lag of play environment with top-notched game computer with fast processing power and who tolerate no nonsense than a real challenge in-game where if you don't wipe at least once on each run of FP, it would be insult.

 

There is really no need to drag every players down the pit by having Vet mode FP bumped up in difficulty to serve your need. Different players have different need for challenges as well as capability in terms of bio-motor-skill and hardware processing power and lag environment. The positive approach is to create a new space (aka Super Master Mode FP) to cater to those who enjoy high level of challenges and not the negative approach of squeezing the space (aka Vet Mode FP) of the weaker players. We are in no competition here. (I also don't think the weaker players are asking for the stronger player to educate them on how to play the game nor the stronger player is obliged to teach the weaker players on how to play. All that is needed is to find like-minded individual to team up to play. Imposing mindset on how it should be played is not required and non-constructive.) Again, I am not disagreeing with you but only the approach taken. To you, you feel "just right finally" but to me I don't feel it "right" at all because of the negative approach.

 

I know why we disagree, especially since you first started a thread on the virtues of solo play. see my thread post right before this one in response to somebody else. It applies to you here as well.

Hi all

 

Oh yesssssss ... the game become more difficult as last 3 years

And i like it

 

The poeple have to learn to play the classes and the specific skills !

What does it mean: in veteran FPs the players wait for the Tanks first pull - in MM FPs too - great !

And have to learn the mechanics.

It was absolutly time for to turn the game from arcarde into a class role game ...

 

Enjoy it and have fun

Now that they are going back to their roots and bringing SWTOR back to being a real MMO after being solo oriented for so long, I think there are going to be quite a few people who are upset and will leave and I completely understand their position.

 

...

 

That being said, we will have to see if BioWare can keep the people here. Although I will say the increase in challenge certainly helps.

 

Still feel bad for the departing solo players, but not enough to suggest BioWare make any concessions.

 

We both agree that this is a risky approach (in the other thread). At this point of time, taking such risk is to me at least a bit unnecessary. If you still have 10 servers of players to play with, any failure may result in 5 servers being cut and you still have 5 servers to fight your next battle. Now you are down to just 2 servers, failure will result in just one server left and if one more failure will result in the game shutdown.

 

To secure and hold on to the player base is to me more important than to attract new player (which remain an unknown). While game need to evolve to attract new player, or retain returning players, it should not push away existing players not at least with the current status of SWTOR unless BW is intending to do a last stand now with its game either to win big or to just shut down.

I'd rather instead of retuning the level sync on planets or in flashpoints etc etc, that BioWare had listened to the feedback from 4.0 that they were given. Not everyone wants or likes level sync, some find it too easy / too hard / just about right.

 

What if instead of the re-tune that applies to ALL players, they had delivered what was asked?

 

• Option to toggle off level sync / reduced rewards for doing so.
  
• Option to have level sync at a standard setting / rewards are standard.
  
• Option to have a harder level sync mode / rewards are increased.
  

 

Now wouldn't that have been something, being able to please all of the players of the game? Both in open world on planets and in the content such as flashpoints etc. I mean you're welcome to settle for less if you like.....?

as much as there's a part of me that would just love to dismiss you with a snide comment, I really can't because up till this point before 6.0 and before Keith took over, bioware's heart really wasn't in to making it real MMO. They essentially enabled all the solo players enabled everything towards them.

 

Now that they are going back to their roots and bringing SWTOR back to being a real MMO after being solo oriented for so long, I think there are going to be quite a few people who are upset and will leave and I completely understand their position.

 

If anything, that was one of the things that made this game really hard to figure out come up because it was billed as an MMO but they really started focusing on solo play starting with forged alliance. And if you believe what Nyman, a former tester set, BioWare never really wanted to make an MMO in the first place.

 

and yet here they are getting back to the roots of the originally launched game and the people who were catered to for the past 3? 4? Years are upset over it, I really can't blame them, even if I do believe in my heart of hearts the direction and change was necessary for the overall health and growth of the game.

 

It's an interesting dynamic because I'm seeing a lot of players who trend more towards solo play mentality get fed up and leave. At the same time, I am seeing about twice as many people in game at least who have been away for a while and now that they've come back are really enjoying themselves and the grouping aspect. It's a shame that both audiences couldn't be kept but I also think the wants of both audiences are diametrically opposed to each other and BioWare picked of the larger audience.

 

Bioware's outreach hasn't gone unnoticed by a lot of former players who left over this story direction.

 

That being said, we will have to see if BioWare can keep the people here. Although I will say the increase in challenge certainly helps.

 

Still feel bad for the departing solo players, but not enough to suggest BioWare make any concessions.

 

*raises eyebrow* so you apparently think the best business model is to alienate and drive off a huge section of the playerbase, one that has been here since the beginning since the draw there was *solo class story,* in the hopes that endgame raiders in this mythical "real MMO" will make up the difference? Oh, dear. I hope you enjoy the last year of the game before they have to shut it down or completely retool it again.

Edited October 28, 2019 by IoNonSoEVero

We both agree that this is a risky approach (in the other thread). At this point of time, taking such risk is to me at least a bit unnecessary. If you still have 10 servers of players to play with, any failure may result in 5 servers being cut and you still have 5 servers to fight your next battle. Now you are down to just 2 servers, failure will result in just one server left and if one more failure will result in the game shutdown.

 

To secure and hold on to the player base is to me more important than to attract new player (which remain an unknown). While game need to evolve to attract new player, or retain returning players, it should not push away existing players not at least with the current status of SWTOR unless BW is intending to do a last stand now with its game either to win big or to just shut down.

 

I get why you feel that way, however the solo playground just isn't that big and that interested. I know you are and I know others are, but when we are talking about potential market, you guys are a smaller market. And to appeal to the larger market, unfortunately they want things exactly the opposite of what you want so appealing to both of you isn't an option.

 

Or rather, heroics, story, and dailies are geared towards solo play. But it's going to be challenging to continue to do that with flashpoints and operations which were always intended to be group content.

 

Here's the thing. The genie isn't going to go back in the bottle at this point. BioWare has rolled the dice and in the cast its lot.

 

Flashpoints and operations are going to be the group content going forward. For solo players, there is the story, the daily zones, and for a real challenge the eternal championship.

 

So even thinking about this out loud, there is still things for solo players to do in SWTOR, more than I initially considered.

 

But the whole game can't be that way and be a success or grow. BioWare tried that over the past three to four years and only slowly lost players.

 

So the gamble to me is the right one.

 

But the question is can they follow it up. Making a change for group play won't mean much if you don't continue to have things for people to do at regularly anticipated intervals. Certainly can't wait a whole year or half a year to release the next content..

I'd rather instead of retuning the level sync on planets or in flashpoints etc etc, that BioWare had listened to the feedback from 4.0 that they were given. Not everyone wants or likes level sync, some find it too easy / too hard / just about right.

 

What if instead of the re-tune that applies to ALL players, they had delivered what was asked?

 

• Option to toggle off level sync / reduced rewards for doing so.
  
• Option to have level sync at a standard setting / rewards are standard.
  
• Option to have a harder level sync mode / rewards are increased.
  

 

Now wouldn't that have been something, being able to please all of the players of the game? Both in open world on planets and in the content such as flashpoints etc. I mean you're welcome to settle for less if you like.....?

 

I am 100% for this.

 

I want to fight Thanaton like an actual boss fight. Not kill him in 3 hits.

To all those highly competent and skilled players who feel that it is their obligation to see to it those weaker players how to play their classes and FP, I sincerely hope you will continue to stick around to guide and teach those weaker players within the FP despite multiple wipes and not to abandon it half-way to find a better group leaving the weaker players clueless still. I have witnessed in recent days many level 75 players abandon group on first wipe on trash mobs. Talk about teaching weaker players how to play.

 

Surprisingly, in one of these after the level 75 player abandoned group on us, one of the lowbies ask me what to do next. I told him we will proceed with 3 players plus one nerfed healing comp. And with that, we cleared the entire FP within a single wipe even on boss fight (the latest Corellia FP). I don't know why but it happened. So is it the case that the lowbies don't know how to play or is it the nerfed healing comp suddenly bugged out and become OP again? I don't know.

*raises eyebrow* so you apparently think the best business model is to alienate and drive off a huge section of the playerbase, one that has been here since the beginning since the draw there was *solo class story,* in the hopes that endgame raiders in this mythical "real MMO" will make up the difference? Oh, dear. I hope you enjoy the last year of the game before they have to shut it down or completely retool it again.

 

The problem here is you have one big misconception.

 

You guys are not a huge part of the player base. BioWare has catered to solo play for 3 to 4 years and has been losing subs. The number of people who have left over that direction far outnumber the people still here playing. In early indication, at least to me, is that this new direction BioWare is taking is bringing in more people than are leaving which means they made the correct business decision. Feelings are irrelevant. Numbers matter. I am seeing a lot more people in the game which is expected of an expansion. But what I am also seeing is a ton of positive response in the general chat in the game which normally doesn't happen. usually you'll get new content and a lot of complaining similar to the forums. That indicates to me that BioWare made the correct business move and is successfully bringing people who left a long time ago back into the fold.

Part of the problem I keep seeing in this thread and the other difficulty thread is a misconception of what people want more difficult and what people think shouldn't be.

 

Already in this thread people are talking past eachother a little because one side will say, "It's great because vet FPS need teamwork and though." While another side will say "it's terrible because heroics are a slog."

 

These can both be true and are not incompatible. Whatever they once were heroics are a part of the silo endgame and progression now. And vet and mm FPS should be challenging group content. It's not impossible for the devs to do both of those.

 

Before 6.0 I would have said they should have done a balancing pass over FPS to make them harder. Now I think it would be fine as it is but they need to do a balancing pass over heroics to tone them down, especially if they plan on using the mm as part of the endgame grind. These things can coexist.

 

Now some solo players want to solo mm FPS and to that crowd you can't win and appease the grouping players. There's just no way that can coexist and I side with groupers on thag. But most solo players are not talking about that. Just heroics being less of a slog and, in some cases, simply being doable at all now.

The problem here is you have one big misconception.

 

You guys are not a huge part of the player base. BioWare has catered to solo play for 3 to 4 years and has been losing subs. The number of people who have left over that direction far outnumber the people still here playing. In early indication, at least to me, is that this new direction BioWare is taking is bringing in more people than are leaving which means they made the correct business decision. Feelings are irrelevant. Numbers matter. I am seeing a lot more people in the game which is expected of an expansion. But what I am also seeing is a ton of positive response in the general chat in the game which normally doesn't happen. usually you'll get new content and a lot of complaining similar to the forums. That indicates to me that BioWare made the correct business move and is successfully bringing people who left a long time ago back into the fold.

 

It's not a "huge misconception." Story and solo players left over the past few years because BW barely released any content, and what they did release was mostly not for them (PvP maps, the GftM op, and gearing tied to group play on Ossus). Unless you are seeing Bioware's business stats, which I would find very hard to believe, you have no way of knowing that they are bringing in more people right now.

 

I've seen very little enthusiasm for the update outside of Reddit. Most gaming sites are ignoring it. Some of the top influencers have shrugged it off. The open world areas of the game seem very low in population, as opposed to how they were when Ossus and Copero dropped. Meanwhile I hear friends that used to play SWTOR talking very enthusiastically about other games which do have an online component but drop a lot of content constantly and value their solo playerbase.

 

The last game that tried to do what you think is such a good idea was Wildstar. Which of course is thriving right now, n'est-ce pas?

 

Most games cannot get by only on group play, or by making things only high difficulty for raiders and throwing solo players a bone here and there. Including this one. At this point if this game shuts down, which I fully expect it will unless they change direction quick enough to get players back, it will be deserved because they decided that their playerbase was not valuable enough to keep.

Flashpoints and operations are going to be the group content going forward. For solo players, there is the story, the daily zones, and for a real challenge the eternal championship.

 

So even thinking about this out loud, there is still things for solo players to do in SWTOR, more than I initially considered.

 

This is exactly our disagreement if you have still not realized that it is not on the matter but only on the approach. For me at least, now the FP become lesser "attractive" to a more solo-minded player like me, I will not play or play less than before. I am not disagreeing that solo players till have a lot of space to play in-game but that space has now been squeezed to give to more group-focused play which for a traditional MMO is the focus which you feel is the right track to get back on (which I said I am not disagreeing but only disagree on how that should be brought about).

 

Instead of expanding the pie for everyone (for example implementing a new Super Master Mode), you take away some of the pie from one segment of player (which have been supporting you all these years) to give to another.

The problem here is you have one big misconception.

 

You guys are not a huge part of the player base. BioWare has catered to solo play for 3 to 4 years and has been losing subs. The number of people who have left over that direction far outnumber the people still here playing. In early indication, at least to me, is that this new direction BioWare is taking is bringing in more people than are leaving which means they made the correct business decision. Feelings are irrelevant. Numbers matter. I am seeing a lot more people in the game which is expected of an expansion. But what I am also seeing is a ton of positive response in the general chat in the game which normally doesn't happen. usually you'll get new content and a lot of complaining similar to the forums. That indicates to me that BioWare made the correct business move and is successfully bringing people who left a long time ago back into the fold.

 

You and I are seeing different things s in general chat. A lot of times in the fleet I've seen more people saying the changes are bad than good. A lot of times I'm defending the changes there because the general chat is being reactionary to them