Ok, they needed a nerf? Yes.

They needed to be completly destroyed? NO

It's obvious we needed some adjusts, specially to balance PVP. But what Bioware did was simply ridiculous.

All the other dps classes can easily overkill our dps (updated to full 240) with old 4.0 gear (224). When they use 230/236 it's FUNNY. The difference is just absurd.

I mean, of course we can't do the exact same dps as some other classes because we're ranged (benefit) and plus we have a lot of defensive tricks AND pretty good self healing. Ok.

But AT LEAST we should be able to perform the right dps to be competitive inside a NiM OP, for example. As ALL OF THE OTHER dps classes are.

I mean, what is the damn point of making a specific class of the game be useless in a game content? That's beyond unfair. They tried to make PVPers stop crying and they screwed all of us, PVPers and FIRSTLY PVEers.

That sucks because I simply love the class, it's my main and I'm working hard on him for years and years. It's not like just: "Well, play other class, duh."

Most disturbing is it seems devs aren't giving a single f about this.

Shame.

I suggest we ALL open a ticket about it. Already did.

MAYBE they start to listen to, since it seems they dont read this forum at all.

Agreed. Sorc dps need a buff so bad but all devs do is changin the galactic map system and adding 1 boss to the game in 5.2. They have time to create new ugly reskins every month but no time for balancing classes. I suggest people stop supporting this game since devs dont care about feedbacks.

Sorcs are still better off than PTs.

Sorcs are still better off than PTs.

Depends. In PvP yes they are, in pve, not they are not. PT have at least 1 spec that is still NiM competitive, 2 if you count tanking.

Ok, they needed a nerf? Yes.

I don't think dps sorcs have ever really been able to crawl out from under the hybrid tax. The only reason to nerf them that I can see is that they were too popular. Why that is, I don't know. Iconic casting animations plus viability?

It's just a l2p issue. No rolfcopter anymore, you just have to seriously work on your success.

Let's see the ops and dummy parses from these players you know.

Dragging in dead last of a geared group is what the numbers I've seen describe. It would be nice to have data showing the competitiveness of lightning / madness specs in nightmare mode.

I know both, succesful pvpers and succesful endgame-pveers playing sorc-dps. It's just a l2p issue. No rolfcopter anymore, you just have to seriously work on your success.

nice vid if you on a mando in your sig. btw using the CL/ tk wave instant bug doesnt count.

Let's see the ops and dummy parses from these players you know.

 

Dragging in dead last of a geared group is what the numbers I've seen describe. It would be nice to have data showing the competitiveness of lightning / madness specs in nightmare mode.

It's possible do to all end game content as a lightning sorcs right now it is just extremely difficult to do. While my opportunities to DPS are limited as I usually heal full time in my progression groups, I do get the chance to DPS every once in a while. I would say I can easily fill in for any of our rDPS without DPS loss but it requires near perfect play. You can take a look on parsely and search for lightning parses on most fights and find either of my sorcs (Malocath/Talen Jor) post competitive numbers on all the fights without the use of the instant cast CL bug. A lot of my parses surpass people using the bug in a lot of the fights too but I will never use that bug in any of my parses. I don't know how to do it anyways and it would be considered an exploit regardless but I think that's a topic for a whole other thread.

It's possible do to all end game content as a lightning sorcs right now it is just extremely difficult to do. While my opportunities to DPS are limited as I usually heal full time in my progression groups, I do get the chance to DPS every once in a while. I would say I can easily fill in for any of our rDPS without DPS loss but it requires near perfect play. You can take a look on parsely and search for lightning parses on most fights and find either of my sorcs (Malocath/Talen Jor) post competitive numbers on all the fights without the use of the instant cast CL bug. A lot of my parses surpass people using the bug in a lot of the fights too but I will never use that bug in any of my parses. I don't know how to do it anyways and it would be considered an exploit regardless but I think that's a topic for a whole other thread.

If you cut off all of the "fluffable" fights where sorcs good balance of AoE and single target, and multi dotting is removed, the issues isn't on those for obvious reason. However, if you look at very high dps requirement fights, with tight dps check like Styrak, you are clearly being carried. Sorry to say it bluntly like that. And its not because you don't know your class, its purely a number thing here.

With 5 dps, the lowest when we cleared it in 5.0 was at 7.3k, and it was in 234, in december or start of january.

With 236 deception sin, I was clearing that fight around 8.2k single target.

So no sorc dps isnt viable for all fight, regardless of spec right now. Its a fact sadly. Still very fun in pvp, but I'm not bringing it in fights unless I know other can carry, and its mostly to see how much I'll actually put on boss and such, curiosity sake if you will. Also people know if needed I can bring a 9,5k dps assassin in.

If you cut off all of the "fluffable" fights where sorcs good balance of AoE and single target, and multi dotting is removed, the issues isn't on those for obvious reason. However, if you look at very high dps requirement fights, with tight dps check like Styrak, you are clearly being carried. Sorry to say it bluntly like that. And its not because you don't know your class, its purely a number thing here.

 

With 5 dps, the lowest when we cleared it in 5.0 was at 7.3k, and it was in 234, in december or start of january.

 

With 236 deception sin, I was clearing that fight around 8.2k single target.

 

So no sorc dps isnt viable for all fight, regardless of spec right now. Its a fact sadly. Still very fun in pvp, but I'm not bringing it in fights unless I know other can carry, and its mostly to see how much I'll actually put on boss and such, curiosity sake if you will. Also people know if needed I can bring a 9,5k dps assassin in.

I'm still not entirely convinced that it can't be done. I think the Styrak fight is a poor example here as the enrage on the fight is extremely long or nonexistant (I see parses ranging from 900-1100s clearing it on NiM). This is a HM parse from a little while ago on one of my toons that is mixed 240/242 and I honestly could see this meeting the DPS checks for the fights given full gear and some more practice with the fight. DPS on the Styrak fight really depends on how much you can do while Styrak himself is down and you have a Polarity Shift window for that every time. I think it would be a lot closer than what you might expect. I still firmly believe our numbers are way too low and we shouldn't even have to be discussing whether or not we should be able to pass the fight in full 242's but to say it's flat out not possible is not a statement I'd be comfortable making.

http://parsely.io/parser/view/255975/0

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here but I've pulled other fights like NiM Terror and haven't had an issue using my sorc there and that DPS check is no joke either. Luckily these problems should be fixed with the new tier of gear coming out but we're still sc****** the bottom of the barrel as far as DPS goes. Unfortunately we just have to work twice as hard as the rest of the DPS to clear the same content until class balance happens but I for one accept that challenge for the time being.

nice vid if you on a mando in your sig. btw using the CL/ tk wave instant bug doesnt count.

Its not me in the dread palace-vid, I was tanking the corrupted lady there. My system wasn't able to provide playable fps while recording before the start of aprile, so I didn't got the opportunity to record our first TR.

Let's see the ops and dummy parses from these players you know.

 

Dragging in dead last of a geared group is what the numbers I've seen describe. It would be nice to have data showing the competitiveness of lightning / madness specs in nightmare mode.

What I can say is, that one of the last NiM-groups on Vanjervalis Chain has a Madness-Sorc. I also know of a sorc dps in one of the top NiM-groups on T3-M4.

A friend of mine also sage-dpst at the Revan Core phase @Revan and the styrak-brontes-phase @Council last week without proper gear, not mentioning the implants, ear and relics. He did one of the highest dps due to his skill (something above 8k).

Much of the sorcs disadvantage in dps can be compensated by knowing how to dps best in a boss-fight. Parsing numbers mean nothing - e.g. the guy in the vid mentioned above - the last time he touched his parsing-dummy was back in 3.0 and however, he does reliable dps in every boss fight.

In one point, many of the posters here are right: The casual NiM-raiders can do ok dps with the top dps-classes while moving and it's more than sufficent for any challenge. Sorcs have to do the same on-the-move-dps as they do when standing around, to be competetive. And that's the difference between the top-level-endgame-raiders and the wannabes like us: They do the same dps every time.

So, all in all, it is a l2p issue. It's just the question, how much we want to learn.

And, at the end, it's not only the sorc, who got nerfed. Just watch the pyro-pt: A difficult rotation and less dps than the rofl-ap-pt. Or my beloved serenity-shadow.... you are not alone, sorcs. Just stay calm and wait for the next patch, to become fotm again.

Its not me in the dread palace-vid, I was tanking the corrupted lady there. My system wasn't able to provide playable fps while recording before the start of aprile, so I didn't got the opportunity to record our first TR.

 

 

 

What I can say is, that one of the last NiM-groups on Vanjervalis Chain has a Madness-Sorc. I also know of a sorc dps in one of the top NiM-groups on T3-M4.

A friend of mine also sage-dpst at the Revan Core phase @Revan and the styrak-brontes-phase @Council last week without proper gear, not mentioning the implants, ear and relics. He did one of the highest dps due to his skill (something above 8k).

Much of the sorcs disadvantage in dps can be compensated by knowing how to dps best in a boss-fight. Parsing numbers mean nothing - e.g. the guy in the vid mentioned above - the last time he touched his parsing-dummy was back in 3.0 and however, he does reliable dps in every boss fight.

 

In one point, many of the posters here are right: The casual NiM-raiders can do ok dps with the top dps-classes while moving and it's more than sufficent for any challenge. Sorcs have to do the same on-the-move-dps as they do when standing around, to be competetive. And that's the difference between the top-level-endgame-raiders and the wannabes like us: They do the same dps every time.

 

So, all in all, it is a l2p issue. It's just the question, how much we want to learn.

 

And, at the end, it's not only the sorc, who got nerfed. Just watch the pyro-pt: A difficult rotation and less dps than the rofl-ap-pt. Or my beloved serenity-shadow.... you are not alone, sorcs. Just stay calm and wait for the next patch, to become fotm again.

I'm not saying ANY group with a sorc in them is 100% sure to wipe on NiM. I'm saying sorc's dps isnt high enough even perfectly played to not be slightly carried by others.

Serenity and Pyro are both in pretty dreadful place as well, agreed, but Serenity is still viable if you really want it, but obviously no competitive sin or shadow choose it above inf/decept right now. But it does mean both class have 2 other viable spec to do top content if you count tanking.

PT is funny a bit, since its nerf made them still workable for PvE in AP, but crap at pvp, while lightning/madness are the exact opposite (workable at pvp, not so good in most pve).

But if you REALLY want to think "is this class viable for NIM" think "would I bring 4 sorc dps into a tight enrage check".

I mean, say you need 4 dps doing 8.5k to clear a fight.

If you have 1 IO merc and 1 Leth operative pulling 9.5k, then a carnage mara at 9.2k, in theory you only need to do 4.7k to "meet" the group enrage and you COULD say "I've cleared the fight on a dps sorc!"

But claiming from that that they are viable is wrong, as you've been heavily carried by 3 team mates.

Point. And you can argue that "no no I'm a good experienced raiding sorc" or "X or Y raids NiM with his sorc and he's really good!". I'm not arguing this, and I totally believe you.

Still pretty damn good result of some fine sorc raiding in this thread. Its still under the "req" to not enrage on most of these fight.

I myself wipe the floor with 80% of the dps on JC on my sorc. 90% of these dps also find Karraga is a tight dps check. And I wouldnt bring him into an ops team where I suspect I'd have to "carry" at least one other player who's at his first try or undergeared.

Even with very good class mastery and 242 gear, jushy did on Styrak with his sorc less than my assassin in then a mix of 230/234/236. And my assassin being melee doesnt have the same uptime. And not slightly less. 5-10% less.

Ok, so I look at leaderboard and I see top Sorc is way way way better then any other class. So yes, they are still heavily overpowered and deserve another nerf. Getting rid of Unlimited Power seems good. What do you think ?

That you are a clueless person.

Those sorc are all healers, for the most part, and sorc/sage heal is overtuned for pvp right now.

Even assuming that you'd be right and sorc has a whole would be in need of a nerf (which it isn't, really not) the raid utility? lol. Its not usable in the 4vs4 mode ranked is based on.

Shows what you know.

since 5.2, unbugged sorcs can pull 9.5k easily, but tbh at this stage (3 YEARS) the bug might aswell be considerd a faeture.

I will keep maining my sorc dps - if you think it's un-viable feel free to keep crying on the forum - but if you spent half the time you cried here, practising and seeing the actual numbers in fights, you'd know sorc is viable., it requires more work. than some classes, and yes without gear you won't pull the numbers, but sorc can do anything you want it to do as lightning, and since 5.2, (with none of the dps checks being alterd) madness too.

^ but feel free to keep crying, and re-roll a sniper.

since 5.2, unbugged sorcs can pull 9.5k easily, but tbh at this stage (3 YEARS) the bug might aswell be considerd a faeture.

 

I will keep maining my sorc dps - if you think it's un-viable feel free to keep crying on the forum - but if you spent half the time you cried here, practising and seeing the actual numbers in fights, you'd know sorc is viable., it requires more work. than some classes, and yes without gear you won't pull the numbers, but sorc can do anything you want it to do as lightning, and since 5.2, (with none of the dps checks being alterd) madness too.

 

^ but feel free to keep crying, and re-roll a sniper.

Pls show me your nim kill videos from 5.0 as a sorc dps.

since 5.2, unbugged sorcs can pull 9.5k easily, but tbh at this stage (3 YEARS) the bug might aswell be considerd a faeture.

 

I will keep maining my sorc dps - if you think it's un-viable feel free to keep crying on the forum - but if you spent half the time you cried here, practising and seeing the actual numbers in fights, you'd know sorc is viable., it requires more work. than some classes, and yes without gear you won't pull the numbers, but sorc can do anything you want it to do as lightning, and since 5.2, (with none of the dps checks being alterd) madness too.

 

^ but feel free to keep crying, and re-roll a sniper.

Do you use the Chain Lightning bug on your sorc? If you do you may as well be considered a better Arsenal merc because the DPS gain from that before 5.2 was ~700. You say it's been around for so long that it should be considered a feature at this point but tell me, where are the rest of these hundreds of lightning sorcs who are using this feature? A feature would be something any sorc would be able to do but unless you were planning on telling the rest of the forum about it, I don't think you can call that a feature. To the best of my knowledge, this bug is abused by a few sorcs while the rest of us work much harder to pull the same numbers.

Some people are not getting the point here.

Even IF they were viable inside a NiM OP (wich they are not), the difference in numbers to every other dps classes is RIDICULOUS.

It's a question of beeing fair.

If you can pull 8k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 10k on another dps class.

If you can pull 10k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 12k on another dps class.

If you can pull 850k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 950k on another dps class.

See the point?

It's not guessing. It's parsely comproved. The nerf was way too cruel.

And that's why they do it. Because of people that simply comform and accept the **** they throw.

"Are you destroying my class? That's cool, bro. I can still kill fleshraiders, because I know my rotation urr durr."

It's not a question of know how to play or not. Sage/Sorc dps DOES NOT have enough dps to be competitive in NiM mode when all the other dps classes are SO MUCH better.

If you're a sage/sorc dps in a NiM group and you guys succeed, please congratulate your group, because they were so good that they could carry you. Yes, you WERE carried.

2 or more sages/sorc? Forget it.

They dont even INVITE you for progression groups anymore. You can say all you want, that you can solo a NiM because you are The One, the best player in the galaxy. It doesn't matter if you can't even get into a group.

Well... That's it. No, I'm not happy with what they did to my class, but feel free to comform.

Some people are not getting the point here.

 

Even IF they were viable inside a NiM OP (wich they are not), the difference in numbers to every other dps classes is RIDICULOUS.

 

It's a question of beeing fair.

 

If you can pull 8k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 10k on another dps class.

If you can pull 10k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 12k on another dps class.

If you can pull 850k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 950k on another dps class.

 

See the point?

 

It's not guessing. It's parsely comproved. The nerf was way too cruel.

 

And that's why they do it. Because of people that simply comform and accept the **** they throw.

"Are you destroying my class? That's cool, bro. I can still kill fleshraiders, because I know my rotation urr durr."

 

It's not a question of know how to play or not. Sage/Sorc dps DOES NOT have enough dps to be competitive in NiM mode when all the other dps classes are SO MUCH better.

 

If you're a sage/sorc dps in a NiM group and you guys succeed, please congratulate your group, because they were so good that they could carry you. Yes, you WERE carried.

 

2 or more sages/sorc? Forget it.

 

They dont even INVITE you for progression groups anymore. You can say all you want, that you can solo a NiM because you are The One, the best player in the galaxy. It doesn't matter if you can't even get into a group.

 

Well... That's it. No, I'm not happy with what they did to my class, but feel free to comform.

I don't think any of us are happy with what they​ did to our class but it seems nothing will change your mind about sorc viability. With the new tier of gear sorcs are absolutely viable for NiM content as their DPS is on the same level as mercs pre 5.2. Sorcs are a great choice for raid teams if the person knows how to play it as they bring great raid utility and excellent survivability which lessens pressure on healers. I would agree though that some, if not most raid groups would be reluctant to bring a sorc DPS because good sorc DPS players are hard to come by and there is a negative stigma around them resulting from the 5.0 nerfs.

I've played a Lightning Sorcerer since early release. Are we less DPS than pure DPS classes like Sniper, Marauder and Assassin? Yes, and we should be....to a point...

We have utility that the pure DPS classes don't, including heals, bubbles, pulls, purge, and AEs, among others. Can we still be viable in Hard/Master content? Definitely, for utility reasons.

Yes, the nerfs were a little severe when compared to Flavor-of-the-Month Mercenaries, but it's not as crippling as you nay-sayers think it is, at least not for PvE. I can't speak on PvP as that aspect of the game is silly, in my opinion.

Learn your rotations, dish out wide-spread damage, and be prepared to step outside your comfort zone for harder Ops. Sorcerers are a universal class that helps bridge gaps between DPS and raid utility.

That being said, of course I would like my place among the pantheon of high DPS again, bit until then, I get by just fine.

--Decarabia--