Dovahbrah Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Good luck guys, I've given up on this thread. After listening to that recent interview, where the guy said that classes are mostly balanced and PvP is in a good state, there's no way mercs are ever going to get the real changes they need to be viable. This dev team is completely incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerinnAybara Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I would love a talent that reduced aoe damage by 50%. A smash jug should not be able to demolish a mercenary one against one so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I would love a talent that reduced aoe damage by 50%. A smash jug should not be able to demolish a mercenary one against one so easily. yes, lets balance classes solely based on 1v1 performance against smash monkeys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerinnAybara Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Lol. Assassins, marauders already have aoe damage reductions. Hell a marauder has more passive mitigation then a mercenary does with medium armor and more cooldowns. Anyway, who said anything about balancing 1 v 1? I just don't like the idea that an aoe can do twice as much damage upfront to a single target and be spammed more often without any counters whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluntron Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Were going to see love (maybe) when they raise the level cap. And give EVERYONE new abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightkin Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Were going to see love (maybe) when they raise the level cap. And give EVERYONE new abilities. Thats what im afraid off, that they give us stuff THEN that would make us viable NOW but with everyone else getting candy aswell we are still left behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightkin Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I just don't like the idea that an aoe can do twice as much damage upfront to a single target and be spammed more often without any counters whatsoever. Noone except the smashers thinks that rage/focus is balanced, and not exactly surprising most of them defend the spec tooth an nail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Thats what im afraid off, that they give us stuff THEN that would make us viable NOW but with everyone else getting candy aswell we are still left behind Depends on what we get vs what they get I think. Look at sent/mara at 30 vs the same class at 40 or 45. Other classes are getting tools in that range too, but that's when they get Guarded, that's when Combat gets Precision Slash. Smash spec is pretty much worthless before 40. Personally, I'm expecting our interrupt to be reduced to 10m, and Cryo Grenade to be changed to a root (Commando only). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 with the advent of more talent points, id imagine they add another tier to each tree. if not you start having to balance some weird hybrid crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluntron Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 well having over 1200 expertise *does* increase your potential PvP damage reduction. but what I was saying was that if both you and your opponent have 1200 expertise, the offensive and defensive bonuses cancel themselves out. so even tho the PvP Damage Bonus % is always a little higher than PvP Damage Reduction, when equal Expertise players fight each other they are Expertise bonus neutral So if most ppl are only going 1200 expertise than wouldnt I be taking less damage from them since I have 1390? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluntron Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Thats what im afraid off, that they give us stuff THEN that would make us viable NOW but with everyone else getting candy aswell we are still left behind if our candy is king size reese and everyone else candy is fun size tootsie rolls, I'd be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 So if most ppl are only going 1200 expertise than wouldnt I be taking less damage from them since I have 1390? you will be reducing ~1% more damage, give or take. personally, i would take the extra Aim + End. Bracers/Belt are a great place to swap out a bit of expertise for +Aim and +End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 if our candy is king size reese and everyone else candy is fun size tootsie rolls, I'd be happy. Yep. I'm betting ours is candy corn though and theirs is ribeye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Yep. I'm betting ours is candy corn though and theirs is ribeye. i like candy corn this is all wildly speculative, and i kinda cba. bioware has barely mentioned anything about how the new level cap will affect class balance. like others have said, balance now before adding new stuff. that is common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 i like candy corn this is all wildly speculative, and i kinda cba. bioware has barely mentioned anything about how the new level cap will affect class balance. like others have said, balance now before adding new stuff. that is common sense. Don't lie. No one likes candy corn. And I agree, the class needs help now. BW has a habit of trying to fix things once all the players have gone elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Don't lie. No one likes candy corn. And I agree, the class needs help now. BW has a habit of trying to fix things once all the players have gone elsewhere. i like the pumpkin candy corn tbh i just dont get what is so hard about having an open dialogue between the players and the devs. its clear we have a better understand of how the game works in real-world situations. metrics can only give you so much, and they never account for the massive unpredictability that player skill has. if they looked at all winning teams in ranked WZs, im sure they would see a theme develop rather quickly...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 i like the pumpkin candy corn tbh i just dont get what is so hard about having an open dialogue between the players and the devs. its clear we have a better understand of how the game works in real-world situations. metrics can only give you so much, and they never account for the massive unpredictability that player skill has. if they looked at all winning teams in ranked WZs, im sure they would see a theme develop rather quickly...... Yeah I just don't know. Can we really blame metrics for the change to stockstrike/rocket punch? I just don't know anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DariusCalera Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Yeah I just don't know. Can we really blame metrics for the change to stockstrike/rocket punch? I just don't know anymore. Probably not. So I would place the blame on individuals that have never, or very rarely, played a commando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluntron Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) you will be reducing ~1% more damage, give or take. personally, i would take the extra Aim + End. Bracers/Belt are a great place to swap out a bit of expertise for +Aim and +End looks like I have a bit of remodding to do then when 1.6 comes out. Edited December 9, 2012 by Bluntron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldRepublicRevan Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Yeah I just don't know. Can we really blame metrics for the change to stockstrike/rocket punch? I just don't know anymore. The only people responsible for any blame is Bioware and its team of Developers. The blame falls 100% on them for relying on some stupid chart to decide how pvp is working. To balance pvp once and for all it will require the team of Developers at Bioware to actually sit down and play pvp amongst us. By us I mean the players on the servers. They need to get in there and mix it up with us to get a true taste of what pvp is like for mercs/commandos. They need to stop pvping amongst themselves and actually try to grind up a toon from the start to see just what kind of a headache it is to be a merc/commando. For those of us who have one of either of these advanced classes we all can agree it is ******. We can do amazing damage if left alone but 99% of the time any melee locks onto us we are dead. We can run around for a bit but once the medpacks have been used and determination has been used we're dead men/women walking. We can complain all day and all night long on these forums but they wont listen. There is a reason this thread is so long and so full of users posting and so few developer posts. 1.6 isn't going to change anything for our advanced class. Melee will still rule pvp and sorcs will still be able to wreck our **** with the madness hybrid spec. 1.6 is just going to weed out the ******* and the wannabe ****** mercs/commandos. Leaving only the diehard and totally committed players playing this class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 the things is, what metrics indicate that the knockback on rocketpunch needs a change? what metrics say that the CGC dot for Mercs should have its slow reduced to 30%? either bioware is listening to the wrong people, they arent listening at all, or they just downright dont know how to play the class to its highest potential (albeit still weak compared to other classes). i think it is a mix of all 3. is there going to be another guild summit type deal? maybe that could be used as a way to get a face to face discussion going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Possibly. They'd have to invite some PVP focused guilds though, and those guilds would have to be concerned about merc/commando DPS. But what top tier PVP guild is using any commando mains in their ranked teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroeconomics Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 the things is, what metrics indicate that the knockback on rocketpunch needs a change? what metrics say that the CGC dot for Mercs should have its slow reduced to 30%? BW's ingame collected stats show that Merc dps does more damage than other dps classes. That is the dominant factor that has driven 12 months of nerfs to the subclass. And throughout that process, the more BW nerfs Merc dps, the better Merc dps ingame collected stats look. Which is why the nerfs keep coming. What Bioware does not comprehend is that player migration causes a inverse relationship between buffs and class performance. The more a class is buffed, the more new players/rerolls surge towards that class. The influx of undergeared, inexperienced players lowers that classes meta average productivity - which is what BW measures. Conversely, when a class is nerfed, the people who leave that class are the worst players using that class - as they are the ones who now find the class non-viable. The ones who remain are the best geared, most skilled players. Thus the meta average productivity for a nerfed class actually RISES. We have seen this phenomenon in action multiple times. The 1.1 nerfs to Operative dps followed by BW's need to nerf them again in 1.2 is a prime example. In more recent times, the surge in Mara/Sent dps toward the Focus/Rage spec actually lowered that spec's meta average productivity. Which lead BW to buff them further. Conversely, as Mara/Sent players fled the Anni/Watchmen spec, those left were the higher productivity players. Which lead BW to nerf them, despite the widespread knowledge amongst the player base that they were the weakest Mara/Sent spec. The bottom line is that player migration renders BW's ingame stat collection irrelevant. The ingame stat collection code should be removed and the server CPU cycles saved should be used to improve server performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Possibly. They'd have to invite some PVP focused guilds though, and those guilds would have to be concerned about merc/commando DPS. But what top tier PVP guild is using any commando mains in their ranked teams? eh, i would maybe show up. im in a pvp guild! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) BW's ingame collected stats show that Merc dps does more damage than other dps classes. That is the dominant factor that has driven 12 months of nerfs to the subclass. And throughout that process, the more BW nerfs Merc dps, the better Merc dps ingame collected stats look. Which is why the nerfs keep coming. What Bioware does not comprehend is that player migration causes a inverse relationship between buffs and class performance. The more a class is buffed, the more new players/rerolls surge towards that class. The influx of undergeared, inexperienced players lowers that classes meta average productivity - which is what BW measures. Conversely, when a class is nerfed, the people who leave that class are the worst players using that class - as they are the ones who now find the class non-viable. The ones who remain are the best geared, most skilled players. Thus the meta average productivity for a nerfed class actually RISES. We have seen this phenomenon in action multiple times. The 1.1 nerfs to Operative dps followed by BW's need to nerf them again in 1.2 is a prime example. In more recent times, the surge in Mara/Sent dps toward the Focus/Rage spec actually lowered that spec's meta average productivity. Which lead BW to buff them further. Conversely, as Mara/Sent players fled the Anni/Watchmen spec, those left were the higher productivity players. Which lead BW to nerf them, despite the widespread knowledge amongst the player base that they were the weakest Mara/Sent spec. The bottom line is that player migration renders BW's ingame stat collection irrelevant. The ingame stat collection code should be removed and the server CPU cycles saved should be used to improve server performance. Source? I hear you spout this all the time and it all sounds nice and reasonable, as all great conspiracy theories do, but I have no reason to believe it has any particular bearing on reality. Before the buff to Focus/Rage, Rage Juggs were known to be a strong spec when played right but weren't exactly super popular. Only the very dedicated played the spec, and they were good at it, which should have driven the spec's meta-average up, yet they were buffed (which is what led to all the FotMers). Whose not to say that the operative nerfs in 1.1 and 1.2, and the Grav Round nerf in 1.2, weren't all QQ oriented? People whined, they nerfed the whined about classes, and then they still whined later when operatives could still be dangerous. Also your theory that BW primarily uses meta-averages still fails to explain why they Stockstrike knockback nerf, which appears to have been feedback driven, even if their take of that feedback was just plain silly. As for your numbers stating that Merc/Commando does the most damage, I need some proof. Sounds like a stat you pulled out of your hind end. Sorry dude, but without some hard proof that BW is relying totally, completely, and stupidly(i.e. taking numbers at face value instead of trying to interpret them properly) on ingame metrics, your entire theory, and by extension all your crazy rants on the subject, don't hold much water. Edited December 10, 2012 by ArchangelLBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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