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TANGENT: Tank viability in PvP -- what target are we aiming for?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
TANGENT: Tank viability in PvP -- what target are we aiming for?

funkiestj's Avatar


funkiestj
05.09.2014 , 03:17 PM | #1
While we are discussing options to make full tanks viable in PvP I thought it useful to have a separate discussion to hear everybody's ideas for what target are we aiming for?

Example targets:
  • at least one top ranked 4-man team uses a full tank on their A-team
  • at least 1 full tank appears in the top 10 leaderboard (solo, group) on the PvP servers
  • <your idea for a goal>
  • <some metric relating full tanks to hybrid tanks>

Mr. Hat says "BW support is the best"!
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Z-ToXiN's Avatar


Z-ToXiN
05.10.2014 , 02:00 PM | #2
Isn't the simple Idea to give tanks some really good ability very high in the tank tree, so it can't be accessed by hybrids, making actual tank specs superior to hybrids for tanking?

Otherwise: stance lock, cant use tank stance unless youre tank spec in arenas.
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fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
05.11.2014 , 03:25 PM | #3
Not sure why we would need another topic for this one. This can be discussed perfectly fine in the main topic imho.
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Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
05.11.2014 , 05:46 PM | #4
The target should be that tunnel focusing the tank to the exclusion of everything else shouldn't be the top strategy for winning team ranked arenas.....
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Petnil's Avatar


Petnil
05.11.2014 , 06:58 PM | #5
As far as i understand it the main problem for tanks is that tank stats are realy bad in pvp compared to dps stats.
Ex there's quite a few attacks that bypass defence so basicly you dont get full bang for the buck of defence. If instead you get power all your attacks will bennefit from that.

So maybe a talent high in the tank tree that boosts defence/shield/absorb by 25 % againt players. Ofc that wont change the fact that you get pretty much ignored as tank in pvp. Allways nuke the squishy heals/dps first leave tank for last. (correct me if i'm wrong, i have no clue about ranked)

Basicly making the tank harder to kill when using tank stats wont help much to make tanks more viable.

funkiestj's Avatar


funkiestj
05.12.2014 , 09:27 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
Not sure why we would need another topic for this one. This can be discussed perfectly fine in the main topic imho.
Try this: rather than question the thread's existence (as if stupid threads are not allowed on SWTOR forum ...), post what you think the goals for making full tanks viable in PvP are. I bet you'll find several people disagree with you. I posted several ideas for goals, do you have any comments on these?

Mr. Hat says "BW support is the best"!
I am a bad player, so what?

L-RANDLE's Avatar


L-RANDLE
05.12.2014 , 10:52 AM | #7
I am still in the camp that a crit debuff is the best way to accomplish this. That will stop the tunneling as crit heavy DPS classes will waste their time.

Passive tier 5 debuff around 10%.
Active AoE crit debuff around 30% (attached to AoE taunt) tier 6-7


This way we can counter burst from healers and DD, but make it in the framework of proper tanking specs/gameplay.


[EDIT] Our Target is to actually make tanks a counter to one or both of the other roles. With the way things are currently, tanks aren't a counter to either unless you spec hybrid and wear DPS gear, and that's more of a bandaid solution, than an actual counter.
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funkiestj's Avatar


funkiestj
05.12.2014 , 03:03 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post

[EDIT] Our Target is to actually make tanks a counter to one or both of the other roles. With the way things are currently, tanks aren't a counter to either unless you spec hybrid and wear DPS gear, and that's more of a bandaid solution, than an actual counter.
good ideas but off topic. On topic would be talking about metrics (measurable consequences of tanks being made viable). If defining a success metric is too hard, how about defining failure metrics that must be avoided.

I like the idea of being a counter to DPS burst and/or heals burst. How do we define success in terms of metrics? E.g. it seems clear that if none of the top ranked 4-man teams use a full tank then we've failed, right? assumption: if full tanks give advantage, top teams will figure this out and most will use them.

EDIT: consider any recent OP spec before their nerf (bubble sage, hybrid tank VG) -- if you ran a ranked team and really wanted to win you brought some of these.

We don't want tanks to be OP but is our goal for tanks to be indispensible or merely viable (i.e. not a liability)?

Mr. Hat says "BW support is the best"!
I am a bad player, so what?

L-RANDLE's Avatar


L-RANDLE
05.13.2014 , 11:40 AM | #9
Been thinking about metrics a lot while dusting off my Guardian Hybrid both in regs and ranked. It's not easy but here are a few things I thought of to try to quantify tank effectiveness. Like sabermetrics in Baseball, tanks need advanced stats to tell the story.

One of the key factors in tanking is how much damage a tank takes in a WZ. I would use a stat called "soak factor percentage" or SFP. This is a very different number than Protection and can determine if you are being enough of a nuisance to hold "PvP Aggro".

(Total Damage Taken+Protection+SelfHeals/Total Enemy Damage)*100=SFP My initial thoughts on scale is you should aim for factors around 20%+ but I am still collecting some data on this.

Next, damage factor percentage needs to be added. The only way we can have a tank demarcation is also by percentage because a "number" doesn't always need to be "high", just a gauge to see how much compared to the top DPS in a WZ.

(Damage Dealt/Damage Dealt')*100=DF Where DD prime is the top DPS player. As a whole, I would say you should be within 25-30%. If you are under, you are not providing enough "hump" damage.


Add these two together: DFPS(Damage Factor plus Soak)~=Tank Eff If your DFPS is around .500, you are about average.


Thoughts?
PvP Gear Viability? Read this first.
Tired of being broke? Stop being Felica and read this.
I'm not trying to be Rambo..... I'm trying to be Ray Tango

funkiestj's Avatar


funkiestj
05.13.2014 , 02:10 PM | #10
interesting metrics. They seem to work on the level of "how much value is the tank bringing to the team?"

One factor that I think does not show up on scoreboards and combat logs is "how much higher is the tank's mitigation than the guardee's mitigation"?

Guard provides 5% mitigation to begin with and then redirects 50% of the damage to the Tank. Even if the gaurdee's mitigation was used for the redirected damage (it is not), redirection helps smooth out burst damage.

Since the tank's mitigation (and supposedly avoidance) is used for redirected damage guard actually reduces overall damage done by the opposing side. How much reduction depends on how much higher the Tank's mitigation is compared to the guardee. I'm pretty sure this mitigation differential does not show up anywhere (neither in the PvP scoreboard nor the combat log) yet it is important. The higher the mitigation differential the more enemy damage is actually being reduced by guard rather than merely spread around, thereby reducing pressure on the healer.

If we trade mitigation stats (shield, absorb and maybe defense) for DPS stats then we reduce guard mitigation differential (invisible on the scoreboard) for increased damage (this does show up on the scoreboard).

I think we can calculate mitigation differential if we have
  • tank's combat log and base mitigation values
  • guardee's combat log and base mitigation values

for full tanks to be as good as hybrids, reduction in enemy damage due to mitigation differential must be >= damage gained by going hybrid and stacking DPS stats.

Of course if full tanks become important to have but arenas start going to the poison gas too often then tank+heals has become overpowered ...

EDIT: noticed that increasing guard mitigation differential will likely reduce your SFP metric!

Mr. Hat says "BW support is the best"!
I am a bad player, so what?