Surely it's pretty obvious that it's not on the cards at all, but they are not going to come out and say that because it will drive away players who still have hope that it's going to happen.

We'll see.

Surely it's pretty obvious that it's not on the cards at all, but they are not going to come out and say that because it will drive away players who still have hope that it's going to happen.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this was indeed the case. Then again, this prolonged vow of silence will also drive away players.

Surely it's pretty obvious that it's not on the cards at all, but they are not going to come out and say that because it will drive away players who still have hope that it's going to happen.

At least as of Sept. 1, the Stephen Reid announcement that same-gender romance will be in SWTOR at some point is still the stock boilerplate response on this issue for Support (though the reply did not in fact answer the questions I asked):

I am Protocol Droid A0-L6, Human-Cyborg Relations.

 

Thank you for contacting us regarding same gender romance story arcs in Star Wars™:The Old Republic™.

 

We understand that this topic is one that''s very important to many of our community members, and we appreciate you contacting us for clarification.

 

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars™:The Old Republic™ will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.

 

We at BioWare and Star Wars™:The Old Republic™ appreciate all our fans, and are proud to have such a diverse and tolerant community. Should you require assistance with any other issues, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

 

Galactic Support is our specialty…

They may have failed to change out the stock reply, or this could still be The Plan. Until we are told one way or the other, however, we can only speculate and continue to request clarification.

Then again, this prolonged vow of silence will also drive away players.

Indeed, it already has. Most recently and notably, this thread lost longtime poster and voice of moderation MusedMoose on account of this... failure to communicate. I am sure he is not the first and I am afraid he will not be the last.

It's strange. A few months back, BioWare was actually communicating with the fans on certain issues. They received praise on the Forums for their transparency. Then all of a sudden, they clammed up again.

Because EA woke up one day and remembered they owned BioWare, so now we're operating under Electronic Arts SOP until they start developing the next Madden game.

Seriously, though, I don't think they're going to. Same-sex relationships has always been seen in M-rated games and this is a T-game. And since LucasArts has this thing with catering to the younger generations, we won't see same-sex stuff for a while, if ever. I don't know why people keep bringing it up. If it happens, it happens. If not, so what? Sure, it's make the game more fun, but so would playable Trandoshans or removing EA's pull over the game, and we're not getting those soon either.

Same-sex relationships has always been seen in M-rated games and this is a T-game

Same-sex romance is rated exactly the same as opposite-sex content by the ESRB. The distinction is based on how explicit a portrayal is. The Sims, an extremely popular EA title which has always included same-gender romantic options, is rated T. To imply same-gender content is "more adult" on basis or orientation alone is close to the "discriminatory language" line. In any case, your claims simply don't stand up to the facts.

I don't know why people keep bringing it up. If it happens, it happens. If not, so what? Sure, it's make the game more fun, but so would playable Trandoshans or removing EA's pull over the game, and we're not getting those soon either.

I imagine it is brought up because a.) it is not in the game, b.) it is supposed to be in the gane, c.) we aren't being told anything about it and c.) it is content that many players want.

Simply because something is unimportant to you does not make it unimportant to others. EA/BioWare understands that, and has made a commitment to deliver this content.

It's strange. A few months back, BioWare was actually communicating with the fans on certain issues. They received praise on the Forums for their transparency. Then all of a sudden, they clammed up again.

They used to have a very large and full community management team. With the switch to F2P, they shrunk it down to just a few.

I'll quote this from an article that was posted on Massively just a few days before the F2P annoucement was made publicly, cited as a sign they believed the F2P model was in the works:

Now, even though I think SWTOR had one of the best community teams in the business, I am well aware that the team was much larger than it needed to be for the game. However, from what I can tell, a good 70% or more of the community team staff was cut. That tells me that BioWare is seriously thinking about the way it does business overall.

 

Free-to-play models are driven by direct dollars. If a certain item sells well, the development team makes more of that. If something doesn't sell well, then the devs change the direction of that line of production. In a subscription model, you don't have that direct-dollar feedback. That's where the community team comes in. That team keeps a pulse on the community to get an idea of what the players want. If you switch to a free-to-play model, then the community team becomes drastically less necessary.

Same-sex romance is rated exactly the same as opposite-sex content by the ESRB. The distinction is based on how explicit a portrayal is. The Sims, an extremely popular EA title which has always included same-gender romantic options, is rated T. To imply same-gender content is "more adult" on basis or orientation alone is close to the "discriminatory language" line. In any case, your claims simply don't stand up to the facts.

I tend to agree, but to play devil's advocate for a second, nobody is exactly sure how the ESRB would deal with non-explicit same sex story content in a game that was otherwise a firm T. It has actually never come up before. The Sims is the closest example, but in a way it doesn't really count since it is a sandbox game. There is not a set story about a same sex relationship in it, just the possibility of a player creating their own. There are some off the record remarks by anonymous guys on localization teams for Japanese games out there that have said they had to cut same sex content to avoid a potential ratings hike. Read up on a game called Harvest Moon Cute sometime. The company behind it (Natsume) still won't even admit that they even did cut (the very, very, tame) same sex content from the game, but off the record people have said that it was done to stop a hike from a K+ to a T. This is mostly just rumor though. I'm not sure, but I doubt SGR would be enough for a hike from a T to M for TOR. I have no real way of knowing that though, or if that is part of EA/BW's thinking on why SGR wasn't included feature at launch.

Interesting. But as we do still have a Community Team here, we do need to try to engage them. If they aren't able to answer questions directly, we may be able to ask about story content in general or about whether information from the Guild Summit regarding this is still accurate.

We also can get to know a smaller community team better. I imagine they know my name by now (and that my PMs go right into the trash bin ). But if we continue to discuss this, and especially if we are courteous rather than accusatory, then I think a smaller Comm Team might actually be somewhat to our advantage.

I tend to agree, but to play devil's advocate for a second, nobody is exactly sure how the ESRB would deal with non-explicit same sex story content in a game that was otherwise a firm T. It has actually never come up before.

Actually, we do, because a regular to this thread wrote to ask them, and received a very clear reply that sexual orientation is not taken into consideration when rating content. I will try to track down the relevant post, but Search is so far being uncooperative. It was sometime in the last month or so, however, which may help narrow it down.

EDIT - Found it. Kioma posted here on a non-subscribed player's behalf:

Thank you for contacting the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB). We sincerely appreciate your taking the time to write.

 

The ESRB is a non-profit, self-regulatory body that assigns age and content ratings for video games and mobile apps so parents can make informed choices as to which are suitable for their children and family. As part of its self-regulatory role for the video game industry, the ESRB also enforces industry-adopted advertising guidelines and helps ensure responsible online privacy practices among companies participating in its Privacy Online program.

 

We understand that sexual themes have the potential to be of concern to consumers, which is why all such content must be disclosed during the rating process. In specific regard to your question, ESRB’s ratings criteria do not distinguish between heterosexual and same-sex content when it comes to addressing sexuality in games [emphasis added].

 

We hope this information is helpful, and thank you again for writing.

 

Best regards,

 

Entertainment Software Rating Board

So, the upshot is that as fond as naysayers are of bringing up ESRB rating as a reason not to include this content, it is not and never has been a concern. The ESRB does have a working policy in place in regards to same-sex romance, and it is nondiscriminatory. So that really is a hollow argument for those grasping at straws for reasons to leave same-gender romance out.

Look, you can hate the math - but honestly, I am just being real.

Wish you guys the best. I am a hetero male; and I'll be honest, the only SGRA I want is Mako/Fem!BH, but if I get that, everyone should get everything.

I just am saying, it seems the issue isn't as big as we think. I want it to be bigger, but I think they have so much on their plate with F2P/B2P, they could care less about it all.

Anyway, keeping the hope alive.

Den

Look, you can hate the math - but honestly, I am just being real.

No, you're just expressing an opinion. Unless you're part of the development team you don't now the facts any better than we do, you're just interpreting the silence differently.

And you're welcome to your opinion, certainly, but math is unambiguous and opinion is not. And we're quite at liberty to disagree.

It's not going to happen, because it's a needless expense from the pov or ea / bioware. Sure, they said before launch that it would happen. But, they also said at launch that the game would be subscription based.

Welcome to the real world. Things change.

Actually, we do, because a regular to this thread wrote to ask them, and received a very clear reply that sexual orientation is not taken into consideration when rating content. I will try to track down the relevant post, but Search is so far being uncooperative. It was sometime in the last month or so, however, which may help narrow it down.

 

EDIT - Found it. Kioma posted here on a non-subscribed player's behalf:

 

 

 

So, the upshot is that as fond as naysayers are of bringing up ESRB rating as a reason not to include this content, it is not and never has been a concern. The ESRB does have a working policy in place in regards to same-sex romance, and it is nondiscriminatory. So that really is a hollow argument for those grasping at straws for reasons to leave same-gender romance out.

:shrug: I could issue a public statement declaring myself the President-For-Life of Namibia that doesn't make it true.

Actually what the ESRB said is literally true, but the issue is a little more complex then that. Check this out: The ESRB Ratings Guide. If you'll notice all reference to Sexuality (gay or straight) are covered by the content tag "Sexual Themes". In theory sexual themes are a non-indicative rating, meaning that it can be applied to any game rating. What they do with that is a little more complicated. On that page is a search tool for ratings look up. Use that to try to find a game with major homosexual story content rated under M. They don't exist, because while the ESRB does slap the Sexual Themes tag on any game that even mentions that there are such exotic creatures as gay people (to be totally clear they tend to slap that on anything that even has a single straight kiss), any game that has a gay PC or major support character tends to get slapped with Sexual Content (which is an even vaguer tag and basically can cover any mention that sex exists) and requires a game to have an either a T or M rating.

Seriously, though, I don't think they're going to. Same-sex relationships has always been seen in M-rated games and this is a T-game.

This was posted by Kioma couple of weeks ago. Short version, sexual orientation has no bearing in the game's rating.

I don't know why people keep bringing it up.

Because people want this content and BW promised this content ? But you know this....

I wonder if other threads for other kind of content get so consistent and relentless doomsaying as this one.

edit:lol, double ninja'd

:shrug: I could issue a public statement declaring myself the President-For-Life of Namibia that doesn't make it true.

But were the President-for-Life of Namibia to do so, it would be. That was not a letter someone made up. Or rather, the someone who wrote it was doing so on behalf of the ESRB explaining their actual policy. If the same-gender content is no more or less explicit than the opposite gender content, there are no grounds to raise the rating.

Why do you want them to?

I wonder if other threads for other kind of content get so consistent and relentless doomsaying as this one.

Not that I have seen, and I do frequent other threads as well. I think the doomsaying is a way of trashing the idea of same-gender content without running afoul of forum guidelines. There is a fair amount of general doomsaying about the game, but this topic does seem to come in for more than it's fair share. It is admittedly a controversial subject, but one hard to voice a strong opposition to on any rational basis without looking like a jerk. So they poke what holes they can.

Or so it seems to me, at any rate.

But were the President-for-Life of Namibia to do so, it would be. That was not a letter someone made up. Or rather, the someone who wrote it was doing so on behalf of the ESRB explaining their actual policy. If the same-gender content is no more or less explicit than the opposite gender content, there are no grounds to raise the rating.

 

Why do you want them to?

I don't WANT them to do it. Hell, (like I explicitly said) I don't even think they will do it for TOR. My point, and the part of my last two posts you've sniped, is that whatever they choose to say on the subject the ESRB DOES rate same sex content more harshly. They aren't as draconian about it as the MPAA, but they do it all the same. What they said in the message was perfectly true, the ESRB does not have a separate category for which to judge same sex content vs heterosexual content. The ESRB ratings are based on a series of content criteria which determines ratings. The way they use those content warnings is, however, arbitrary and tends to be weighted more harshly on games with same sex content. Of course they aren't going to actually admit that they do it, but they do it all the same.

Edit - Also, for no other reason than I fell like making the point, despite my making a joke about it Namibia doesn't really have a president for life. It is a very nice country (a member of the Commonwealth even), and I've heard it has the third best surfing in Africa.

I don't WANT them to do it. Hell, (like I explicitly said) I don't even think they will do it for TOR. My point, and the part of my last two posts you've sniped, is that whatever they choose to say on the subject the ESRB DOES rate same sex content more harshly.

'Sniping' or not, The Sims has homosexual content which it isn't even subtle about (you don't get much more blatant than clicking on a bed and selecting 'WooHoo') and yet is Teen rated. SWTOR is rated M in Australia, amusingly enough, but Teen by the ESRB in America.

Frankly I'm surprised and confused that the ESRB only rated SWTOR as Teen considering there's explicit and quite horrifying torture in at least one of the class stories. In the face of causing a human so much pain that their brain liquefies I'd say two guys (or two girls) having a bit of a snog and then fading to black should be very small cheese indeed.

'Sniping' or not, The Sims has homosexual content which it isn't even subtle about (you don't get much more blatant than clicking on a bed and selecting 'WooHoo') and yet is Teen rated. SWTOR is rated M in Australia, amusingly enough, but Teen by the ESRB in America.

 

Frankly I'm surprised and confused that the ESRB only rated SWTOR as Teen considering there's explicit and quite horrifying torture in at least one of the class stories. In the face of causing a human so much pain that their brain liquefies I'd say two guys (or two girls) having a bit of a snog and then fading to black should be very small cheese indeed.

Like I said a couple of posts ago, The Sims doesn't really count as an example since, as a sandbox game, it doesn't have a same sex *story* per se, only the potential for a player to create their own. There is a difference between that and a game with an inbuilt gay romance. That sort of thing (apparently) makes a difference when issuing ratings. Also, anything in the US rates even a tiny degree of sexuality much more harshly than fairly extreme violence. There is a great deal of history behind this ratings stuff, a lot of it very nasty if you know the particulars (seriously, if you want to feel very bad about humanity read up on the origin of the Comics Code as well as HUAC, The Black List, and the MPAA). No joking around though, read through ESRB issued ratings sometime, there has literally never been a game rated lower than an M with a full fledged gay romance. I think TOR will probably be the first.

<shrugs> I see your point but I still think the Sims sets at least partial precedence and is thus a valid (if admittedly flawed) example of a game that brings the gay and yet is rated Teen. The precedence is the important bit. Though I do see your point, definitely.

As for the rest, no thank you. I have very distinct limits to the kind of hypocritical bollocks I'll put up with. 'Torture is fine for kids but two guys snogging isn't, kay,' is a something that really infuriates me. I can't see how any sensible-thinking adult human can possibly consider it justified. It's sick.

Like I said a couple of posts ago, The Sims doesn't really count as an example since, as a sandbox game, it doesn't have a same sex *story* per se, only the potential for a player to create their own. There is a difference between that and a game with an inbuilt gay romance.

I would say the Sims counts as a better example than Tor itself. To access a SGRA in Tor were they included you would have to put hours of effort into the content by getting to the first conversation where you can flirt with a companion, then by spending time grinding affection to get to flirt number two and so on and so forth until you eventually reach the point where you are able to share a kiss with your companion and then fade to black. Compare that to the Sims where you can spend five minutes making two characters, decide at the creation screen that the two are married and then immediately put the two in bed together where they remove almost the entirety of their clothing and start having "woohoo". Yes there may not be a story behind it beyond what you create but in terms of accessibility it is much easier to create an SGR in the Sims than it would be in Tor. Tor won't have same-sex "story" per se, only the potential for a player to be involved in one.

<shrugs> I see your point but I still think the Sims sets at least partial precedence and is thus a valid (if admittedly flawed) example of a game that brings the gay and yet is rated Teen. The precedence is the important bit. Though I do see your point, definitely.

There are some games that set a vague precedent, but not really a true one.

There are a few more games that are basically Sims clones, or near enough, that are also rated T (although a couple of them have actually been kicked up to an M). There were several games over the last decade that had cut same sex content that could still be accessed through either a minor hack or a bug. Some games have avatar swaps that allowed for what was basically a bit of SGR headcanon. Beyond that, well...

Kotor, and a few other games with what can only loosely be called romance, sort of count. Depending on how much of a romance you regard Juhani/Revan as anyway. Not that what was there could be called much of a story. It was a conversation and a half that ends with them deciding that despite being in love they can't be together while they're focused on their epic quest (despite every other romance doing so) followed by a complete lack of any sort of resolution or ending. This sort of aborted romance arc probably does count, but it is hard to really see it. It doesn't really go anywhere and usually lacks even as much as a hug between the couple.

One of the Star Ocean games (IIRC 4 - whatever it was called) probably should count as a precedent, but the content was a type of "bad end" that was very hard to get and if you understand all of the connotations of what the Japanese call an "S-Class Relationship" (romantic friendship w/o benefits) it wasn't exactly much of one. It was sweet and somewhat well developed though, and it would be nice if it set a precedent to some companies that SGR doesn't need to be cut from JRPGs.

Beyond that pretty much any game that had (what will probably be) TOR style SGR has been M. To be fair, a lot of those games would have been M anyway (which in a bit of circular logic is probably why they had SGR in the first place), but there are quite a few that didn't really feel like an M game but were rated that way anyway (probably because of SGR, but who can really say).

Also, Chaac, as an avid Sims player I agree that SGR in The Sims is awesome. You're actually making me feel bad, I haven't played in a couple of weeks now. I think I might go do that for a few hours.

Beyond that pretty much any game that had (what will probably be) TOR style SGR has been M. To be fair, a lot of those games would have been M anyway (which in a bit of circular logic is probably why they had SGR in the first place), but there are quite a few that didn't really feel like an M game but were rated that way anyway (probably because of SGR, but who can really say).

I was surprised to find SWTOR was rated Teen in the USA, I'll be honest. I thought it'd be the equivalent of the 16+ rating it got over here in the EU. I'm not arguing for the rating to be changed or anything, don't get me wrong, it just surprised me. And that's with the content that's already in the game.

It's going to look very unfortunate if they do bump the rating up because of SGR, what with all the torture and holograms of pole dancers etc. that got the game rated T. The ESRB are keen to give the impression they do not rate more harshly over same-sex content alone. That may not always be reflected in reality, but it appears that official policy is to at least claim it has no effect on the rating. It is going to get them a lot of attention if they push for TOR's rating to be increased because of SGR alone. That's a lot harder to slip under the radar than simply giving it a higher rating at launch would have been if SGR had been in then. Whether the ESRB would care about that, I don't know.

I might well be wrong on all of this. I'll just be surprised - and rather dismayed - if SGR gets the rating pushed up all by itself. Whether they'll try and hide it under some sort of excuse is another matter, but I'd best leave it at that and not give anyone ideas.

Honestly, I'm all for people asking for what they want in a game and demanding an answer from the community or development team on what content is coming and when.

But in the current limited scope of development with the current skeletal staff and the obvious move to maintenance mode that F2P is bringing, if SGRA implementation is prioritised over new operations, flashpoints, planets, bug fixes, Open world PvP, cosmetic options, mini-games, space battle revamp. That move will lose far more people than it will please.

Even the most staunch defenders of this can't possibly believe that the development time required will see a return on investment when compared to other player demands?

Honestly, I'm all for people asking for what they want in a game and demanding an answer from the community or development team on what content is coming and when.

 

But in the current limited scope of development with the current skeletal staff and the obvious move to maintenance mode that F2P is bringing, if SGRA implementation is prioritised over new operations, flashpoints, planets, bug fixes, Open world PvP, cosmetic options, mini-games, space battle revamp. That move will lose far more people than it will please.

 

Even the most staunch defenders of this can't possibly believe that the development time required will see a return on investment when compared to other player demands?

I wonder why people keep making comments like this when no one in the thread is stating that SGRA should be prioritized over anything else.

There's also 0 evidence that it is considering we are getting a new operation and probably new flashpoints very soon.

Regardless, a lot of the things you mentioned aren't important to a lot of people (I don't care about space battles and I can't say I know anyone who does), so I'm not sure what point you are making.