My spec: Kinetic Combat (Tank)

Discussing PvE

1. Underpowered due to the recent reductions in armor and self healing.

2. I haven't reviewed enough parses to draw any solid conclusions yet, but I'm concerned that my armor appears to be significantly lower than a Vanguard's armor or a Guardian's armor. I also feel that Shadow tanks are inferior at tanking multiple targets due to the mechanics of Kinetic Ward, without being superior at single target tanking.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Meifeng

1. Other classes (and I would argue my fellow Shadows as well) have a very erroneous perception of the Shadow tank (balance/infiltration not so much). They largely believe the 1.3 adjustments are a crippling nerf but this is far from the truth. When you parse the numbers you see that 1) mitigation is comparable to the VG (the same kind of tank that we are) and 2) we have the best threat generation in the game. Though the other classes would not believe this. I would even go so far to suggest that we are the best tank spec in the game when you consider all factors (threat, mitigation, utility) but you would not believe this if you asked other classes (or those who have yet to run the numbers).

 

2. I believe Shadow tanks are in a really good spot right now. We are the #1 threat generators, and our survivability is in line with other tanks. I'd say we're in a perfect spot.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Mavery

1. People perceive that kinetic combat spec of Shadows to be unable to compete in high level tanking with guardians and vanguards.

 

2. I find the spec to be a good tank, though I find that the self healing really does very little to improve my survivability at all in a group situation, it suffices while soloing, but in flashpoints and operations, feels like it might as well not be there.

Dps specs.. Infiltration/balance.

 

1. Shadows are seen as subpar dps in the game. Not a lot of mobility, hard to keep sustained dps. For pvp it seems like people would MUCH rather have any other dps'er on their team. Balance feels too much like a Sage.

 

2. I very much like playing Infiltration.. It's good fun in both pvp and pvp, but I'm not very efficient!.. Resource management is an issue in longer fights, and then our dps drops drastically..

Kinetic Tank PvE

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

There seems to be a general stigma with shadow tanks, although I've never personally felt it from my guild or in pugs... only in Fleet General Chat where people either love them or hate them. You should ask the healer advance classes how they feel about healing each tank class... I think they would have the most reliable answers for this.

 

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

I personally love my shadow tank, and have only noticed to be slightly squishier than pre-1.3. I will say, however, that our self-healing does seem to be pretty worthless, now. Also, in fights with multiple targets hitting you, Kinetic Ward drops off too quickly, but this is nothing new and is usually manageable if the healer knows to expect the damage spikes.

Edited July 16, 2012 by ThumbToe

I play all specs but primarily Infiltration, so I will limit my comments to it.

 

Infiltration:

 

1. Most players literally do not want an Infiltration on their team in either Warzones or Operations. They will generally only take Infiltration players if they cannot find good players in competitive specs or out of unwillingness to exclude a friend.

 

2. Infiltration is not as horrible as most other players think, but it is underpowered in Warzones and Operations. It needs better sustained damage and for stealth to be much more heavily integrated into sustained combat functionality in order to become a useful, competitive spec. Because the spec does not have special damage capability and is highly vulnerable to direct attack, its identity needs to be like a slippery eel that is difficult to pin down.

My spec: Tank Shadow (Kinetic Combat)

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes? Have you ever seen/heard the Dane Cook skit on "Karen"? In case you haven't,

. That's what I think the Shadow tank is perceived as by the rest of the SWTOR community.

 

2. How do you perceive your own spec? The first time I played after 1.3 I felt like a plush toy. It's definitely been an adjustment and despite the reductions, I think it's actually made me a better tank. I look to guard a lot more than I used to, really try to just play a support role and roll my guard depending on who's getting wailed on at the moment (with healers getting top priority of course). Do I do a lot of DPS? No. But can I rack up 100-200k in WZ protection and maybe get a few objective points too? Definitely. Finally, I haven't raided a whole lot so I can't speak to how the changes have affected PVE.

1. Others perceive it as overpowered in PvP.

 

2. I agree that it is overpowered in PvP. The problem specifically is when shadows combine the kinetic tree with DPS pvp gear.

 

Your 1.3 "fixes" did NOTHING to fix the PvP problem and we took a huge hit in survivablity and utility as a tank in PvE. This was promised not to occur by the devs yet that is exactly what you did.

 

Solution: Restore our armor and reactive healing in PvE, keep the reduction in PvP matches and restrict somehow the DPS gear with a tank spec.

 

But will you actually listen to us? Doubtful, since you ignored us before you did it.

Spec - Kinetic Combat, Shadow Tank

 

1. I think that after the 1.3 changes we are perceived as being the weakest of the tanking specs.

 

2. It is somewhat hard to tell because I have geared up, but I did notice a drop off in survivability after 1.3. That said, I feel the class has a lot of utility in PvP and does more damage than most of the tank classes. I can't speak to the high end raiding, but I haven't run into something I couldn't tank in PvE yet.

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

PVE:

Kinetic - The worst tank due to spikyness and low Armor mitigation.

Infil - Most secretly will want another AC.

Balance - See infil

 

PvP:

Kinetic - Most believe it to be over powered while wearing DPS gear. Too much utility.

Infil - Useless.

Balance - Useless.

 

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

PVE:

Kinetic - Threat generationg is very good. AOE threat among the best in the game but we probably make the worst AOE tanks due to the KW mechanics and low Armor mitigation. Poorly designed. Self heals seem insignificant since 1.3. Way too spiky to be a main tank.

Infil - Most secretly will want another AC.

Balance - See Infil

 

PvP:

Kinetic - Strong in DPS gear. True Tanking is better left to the other 2 ACs as we have the worst PvP mitigation due to a low armor rating. Utility is very strong

Infil - Useless.

Balance - Useless.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Kawiki

Hi everyone,

 

We’re looking for some specific feedback about each Advanced Class and spec. Your feedback here, along with other feedback we’ve been gathering and our internal metrics, may guide future class balance changes. Similar threads will be found in every Advanced Class forum.

 

Here are the two questions that we’d like to ask (please only post about specific specs that you actively play, and don’t forget to tell us which one you’re talking about!):

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

 

Please answer the post using the same format and in no more than 2-3 sentences per question.

 

This is not a discussion thread, so please do not debate others’ feedback – everyone gets to share what they think. Any off-topic or unconstructive posts (or any that do not follow the above guidelines) will be removed without warning.

 

Remember, this isn’t the only thread we’re looking at for feedback – if you have more feedback than fits the above guidelines, please feel free to post a discussion thread. We’re looking to get some specific insights here, but we are always reading the forums to gather feedback and player concerns.

 

Thank you!

 

1 - Currently my class is being perceived as the weakest DPS and I am fighting for a spot on ranked teams. Simply due to the fact that other classes can do it better. Has nothing to do with my capability as a player. More and more people are coming to the realization of where our class is in general. We are on the bench of being replaced.

 

2 - KC nerf was slightly overdone. I believe the healing should be restored. Balance has too much of a ramp up and the only true usage out of it is it's utility. The damage is lackluster. Infiltration simply does not cut it for high-end PvP. This whole "lone ranger" aspect doesn't work for a teamplay game at all. Especially since KC is better at solo play. So where exactly does that leave infil? You claim Infil has good burst, but have you seen what a Pyro PT can do?

Edited July 16, 2012 by Xinika

I only play Kinetic so my thoughts will be on tanking.

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

PvE: Others perceive Shadow Tanks as underpowered when trying to tank the most difficult content.

 

PvP: Others perceive Shadow Tanks as overpowered due to wearing DPS gear while in a tank spec or tank/hybrid spec.

 

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

PvE: I agree that Shadows Tanks are underpowered when trying to tank the most difficult content due the poor (and annoying) Kinetic Ward mechanic and having to rely on the crutch of self-healing to make up for deliberately poorer mitigation. Self-healing does not compensate for being deliberately gimped as a tank because it does not scale up with gear or the number of opponents faced and it can't be used reliably (when CCed, interrupted or when movement is required).

 

PvP: I think the perception of Shadow Tanks as 'overpowered' in PvP is a bit overblown, but I'm one of the few who have tried to make the spec work in tank gear and playing as a tank. In that role I think they are actually underpowered, especially after the recent nerf. This is due largely to tank stats (defense and shield) being mostly ineffective in PvP coupled with the enormous amount of armor piercing attacks and high spike damage (which a Shadow will be able to mitigate the least). Whatever adjustments are made should both increase the effectiveness of actual tanking but disincentivize wearing DPS gear as a tank, which should hopefully solve both problems.

Hi everyone,

 

We’re looking for some specific feedback about each Advanced Class and spec. Your feedback here, along with other feedback we’ve been gathering and our internal metrics, may guide future class balance changes. Similar threads will be found in every Advanced Class forum.

 

Here are the two questions that we’d like to ask (please only post about specific specs that you actively play, and don’t forget to tell us which one you’re talking about!):

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

 

Please answer the post using the same format and in no more than 2-3 sentences per question.

 

This is not a discussion thread, so please do not debate others’ feedback – everyone gets to share what they think. Any off-topic or unconstructive posts (or any that do not follow the above guidelines) will be removed without warning.

 

Remember, this isn’t the only thread we’re looking at for feedback – if you have more feedback than fits the above guidelines, please feel free to post a discussion thread. We’re looking to get some specific insights here, but we are always reading the forums to gather feedback and player concerns.

 

Thank you!

 

1. She's a stealth class with tanking capability. Won't be able to tell which spec she is until she attacks me.

2. I love sneaking around and CCing random people. She plays a lot like my rogue from World of Warcraft.

I switch on e regular base Kinetic (tank) or Infiltration (DPS), mainly in PvE.

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

 

Kinetic tank: varies from OK to disappointed having a Shadow as a tank. Perception is that this is the worst tank. Within the guild though perception tends to be better than outside. Also, I have been turned away by raidleaders as a tank when trying to attend Operations. "Sorry, no Shadow tank". The nerf made things worse.

 

Infiltration DPS: People are either impressed or disappointed. Impressed, because you can obliterate even strong NPCs. Disappointed, because in Operations the average DPS is very significantly lower than other DPS classes.

 

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

 

Kinetic tank: Overall I love the class, but there are select situations where you do not feel being a tank. These vulnerabilities create the Shadow tank reputation. Interrupt should be shorter same as Guardian, and you should have tools to face situations where you get lots of hits in a short timeframe or extremely high hits that you mitigate less than other tanks and are not foreseeable (if foreseeable, there is resilience).

 

Infiltration DPS: Good class for some hit and run or on very static Boss where you can sty behind and ripp them. Yet I think they should be able to have a rotation that is effective for Boss fights. Left about 200-250 DPS behind others, such as Sage.

Note: I main a Guardian, and this will mostly deal with PvE tanking, Kinetic, spec.

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

 

Very, very good AE tank, though, can be quite squishy when compared to Guardian/Vanguard. Does superior damage output as a tank. Decent utility with stealth + CC and some of the debuffs it can apply.

 

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

 

This spec seems a lot more complex than the other two tanks mainly because you have to watch your stacks of Harnessed Shadows. Mess up and go early or lag and not get something off, and you just lost stacks and didn't heal yourself.

 

Shadow tank is very squishy especially with the way Kinetic Ward is implemented. If you don't have that up or mobs eat through it quick like in AE situations, you can get hammered real quick. The self healing probably needs to be upped in some manner, or durability needs to go up.

 

PS: Pebbles aka Telekinetic Throw is still extremely stupid looking and nowhere near the aesthetic awesomeness that is the Assassin's lightning. Find a way to change it so it isn't so terrible looking.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Blev

Kinetic Combat

 

PVE from a high end raider's perspective (we've cleared HM Kephess 9 times now and are gearing alt specs).

 

Wearing perfect, or at least extremely close to perfect mitigation gear:

Armor: 6141 (40.25%)

Defense 399 (27.66%)

Shield 570 (65.66% with Kinetic Ward)

Absorb 576 (60.28%)

 

How others perceive Shadow Tank:

My guild has no problem. My partner tank, a Vanguard, jokes about how OP I am due to resilience and our dodge cooldown. Healers also seem to have no issue, though they have commented that the 1.3 nerf was noticeable.

 

How I perceive Shadow Tank:

Still quite capable after the nerf. I'm tanking all of HMEC and Nightmare Pilgrim without issue. I think the nerf was slightly overdone; we are a bit squishier when it comes to sustained mitigation than Vanguard at least (according to our spreadsheets). I don't have any experience with Guardian. Useful tools like Resilience help to make up for this a bit, but we need our armor a little higher to help when we go on unlucky streaks with dodge/shielding.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Denchet

Why did you delete my post?

 

You want opinions of the community but delete them if you don't like them?

 

My post said the exact same thing as everyone elses;

 

Tank spec

 

1) We are seen as the worst tank in the game without question. It's like losing the lottery when you end up having to deal with a shadow tank in your group, any healer would be much happier to have one of the other two tanks

 

2) Horrible and not any fun. I know I'm holding people back simply by trying to play this class in end game content to try to do so as little as possible.

Edited July 16, 2012 by lexiekaboom

Spec: Infiltration

PVP

 

1. Easily replaceable by specs that do the job better. Why are you not kinetic combat?

 

2. I love my spec, I am a true lone wolf. You leave one person guarding a node I will down them before you can respond. Not suitable to rated though, great for solo que.

I played straight Infiltration up to 1.3, but now that we've been told that it's a trash spec you have no intention of fixing, I decided to respec KC. Maybe with all the well reasoned and well documented teaching from the many shadow tanks who keep trying to explain to you how to fix our weak, broken, fiddly, squishy tank spec, I figure it will get fixed sometime. Or not. But since your senior designer has told us you don't give a crap about making Infil any good, ever, the spec is now clearly a dead end and not worth investing any more in. So today I gave my full set of Columi / Rakata to Nadia, whom I fully expect will make better use of it than I ever could.

 

1. Everyone knows Infiltration is weak. Weak, weak, weak. As a DPS class, you are nothing but an anchor on your party, whether in PUG HMs or guild ops. It's brilliant for blitzing dailies, and good for absolutely nothing else in the game. In that respect, you do seem to at least understand the same thing everyone else already does, based on your senior people admitting you have written the spec off as useless in any group context.

 

2. I know it. You know it. Even yellow dog knows it. As DPS we are at the bottom of the barrel, no matter how well geared or well played (assuming other ACs bring equal skill and gearing, we will always come in last). My alt is a scoundrel healer, and at first I was amazed at how fast my random group finder PUGs ripped through hardmodes when we had two Sentinels as DPS . . . then I realized why it seems so much slower when I'm on my Shadow.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Heezdedjim

lvl 50 PvE Tanking

 

1) Considered weakest tank due the changes making them squishy.

 

2) I still consider it to be a very fun and enjoyable class but my healers have noticed a bif difference in the amount of damage I take now. I think maybe a point halfway between where we was and where we are now would probably be good.

Kinetic & Tank gear - PvP only.

 

1. I suppose I'm percieved as a noob, a moron, or whatever insult that implies I can't play properly, becuse I wear Tank gear. Tank gear only allows me to have a little bit of additional survivability, while i totally dump my damage output. My ennemies probably see me as a nuisance, but not in the good way, not as someone who must be taken down, but as someone who just distracts the attention like a fly turning around your head.

 

2. I don't see myself as a tank, but as an hybrid altough I do all I could in order to be the more "tanky". What really pisses me off, is that when I get caught in a solo fight against an ennemy like a Bounty Hunter or a Inquisitor, I know that even if I'm supposed to be a tank, most of the time I can't do anything but use my Resilience and that's all. In a group fight, my only purpose is to guard and taunt, but guard is mostly suicide because of my average survivability, and taunts can be used whatever the spec and gear are...

Edited July 16, 2012 by Altheran

Full tank spec with mix of WH and BH gear.

I have left my shadow, as our guild failed to kill Kephess with two shadow tanks in normal mode, 20 times.

I changed to my guardian there is only full BM tank geared, and we one shotted him.

So now my shadow is on standby......

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

My main class is Tank (Kinectic Combat)

I've seen posts where some perceive us as overpowered in pvp because of the utilities but underpowered in pve environments. It takes a lot to keep a Shadow healed in hard tanking situations.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

Great utility in pve. We can CC, stun and slow mobs in addition to being able to tank. We are very squishy especially with the recent updates. Our most recent pvp nerf made us harder to play in pve.

I dislike the idea of 'nerfing' any classes, but instead classes should be brought up to balance with other classes rather than take away.

I play Infiltration Spec mainly, but have played all 3.

 

1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes?

Infiltration spec is perceived as an underpowered DPS spec in both PvE and PvP, while Kinetic spec is perceived as overpowered in PvP and competitive in End Game PvE as an off tank.

For Flashpoints and Story content, there appears to be no negative perception to any spec shadow other than most players assume all shadows play the Tank spec due its utility.

For HM OP's Balance and Kinetic appear to be valued more than Infiltration due to there being the perception that sustained DPS is superior in high end PvE content than burst spec with low utility in a raid setting.

For PvP Kinetic is often perceived as being over powered as their group utility is very high and that spec is also very durable, while the other two specs are considered inferior for damage dealing although Balance spec plays better due to the nature of group play in Warzones. Infiltration is often considered subpar in a group setting due to their reliance on cooldowns to be effective in burst damage and low group utility value.

 

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

I personally love the flow of my spec. I like that it has a basic rotation feel too as I'm not as big a fan of priority systems, but the rotation is too static and predictable in PvP. There is no flexibility in order of attacks for max effectiveness. Also, initial burst is reliant on double cooldown usage and once that is over, sustained dps is lackluster and any escape moves are unfriendly to the team. Infiltration spec is great for small scale PvP but brings nothing to the table in objective play outside of the potential quick kill of a soft target. Warzones are objective based and rely on team synergies in the meta game to be effective. Infiltration specs do not play well with others and that has to be looked at.