Besides having subpar dps, PTs really have nothing to contribute utility-wise to the raid. No raid-wide dps booster, no armor debuff, no raid-wide damage mitigation, no significant aoe abilities to clear adds, no ability to offheal, cleanse, prevent significant damage to self, etc.

The only utility they bring is a taunt in case your tank dies or is bad at agro. But that's not really utility, it's a last ditch attempt to save from a wipe.

There really isn't any reason to bring one as dps IMHO.

Besides having subpar dps

Not true. Do your research.

PTs really have nothing to contribute utility-wise to the raid. No raid-wide dps booster, no armor debuff, no raid-wide damage mitigation, no significant aoe abilities to clear adds, no ability to offheal, cleanse, prevent significant damage to self, etc.

Pulse Cannon/Flamethrower as Tactics/AP; Hold the Line/Hydraulic Override is kinda handy too...

The only utility they bring is a taunt in case your tank dies or is bad at agro. But that's not really utility, it's a last ditch attempt to save from a wipe.

 

There really isn't any reason to bring one as dps IMHO.

Haters gonna hate?

Not true. Do your research.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=668630

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980

These parses disagree with your unsupported answer.

Moreover, none of the PT specs present on this thread are full tree but hybrids. Granted, changes made to Tactics/Proto spec will affect in a significant manner its dps output.

However, changes made for the Pyro spec barely touched its dps output hence it is likely that it will remain unchanged.

Pulse Cannon/Flamethrower as Tactics/AP; Hold the Line/Hydraulic Override is kinda handy too...

PC/FT affect 1 spec. HTL/HO doesnt really affect dps and is marginal in term of survivability

Haters gonna hate?

Care to elaborate about the utility brought the PT dps specs apart from what was already mentioned above (i.e. weak capacity to offtank)?

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=668630

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980

 

These parses disagree with your unsupported answer.

 

Moreover, none of the PT specs present on this thread are full tree but hybrids. Granted, changes made to Tactics/Proto spec will affect in a significant manner its dps output.

 

However, changes made for the Pyro spec barely touched its dps output hence it is likely that it will remain unchanged.

 

 

 

PC/FT affect 1 spec. HTL/HO doesnt really affect dps and is marginal in term of survivability

 

 

 

Care to elaborate about the utility brought the PT dps specs apart from what was already mentioned above (i.e. weak capacity to offtank)?

confused. The second link you provided, the PT does 3200 dps, on par with everyone else. The first link the PT still kept up with most people, and surpassed ops, assassins, etc in some of the parses, most didnt have a PT in the group.

Advanced proto full spec 8/36/2 is puttin out lots of damage now.

Care to elaborate about the utility brought the PT dps specs apart from what was already mentioned above (i.e. weak capacity to offtank)?

Off-taunt (do NOT underestimate the value of this). Extremely good AoE in rotation (tactics/ap and hybrid spec). Largely unaffected by movement (especially in assault/pyro spec). Low setup time (1 GCD in all specs). Moderate-to-decent burst (especially in tactics/AP when Shoulder Cannon is up). 10m range on most abilities; 30m range on some (and yes, there are most definitely fights where this is a huge asset).

Consider this: my raid group has a sentinel who is sorely tempted to swap to her vanguard DPS on the Nightmare Kephess fight. Not out of conceit either. Her vanguard out-parses her sentinel on Kephess in HM (by a wide margin), and her sentinel is in partial 75 gear and can easily over-top a 3k on a stationary fight.

confused. The second link you provided, the PT does 3200 dps, on par with everyone else. The first link the PT still kept up with most people, and surpassed ops, assassins, etc in some of the parses, most didnt have a PT in the group.

 

Advanced proto full spec 8/36/2 is puttin out lots of damage now.

Moreover, none of the PT specs present on this thread are full tree but hybrids

full spec are not present on these leaderboard simply because they cannot dish out enough dps compared to the hybrid spec that is being nerfed on the PTS (nerf to both Gut and Incendiary Round).

Does anyone have or can post a link to a hybrid, AP, and a Pyro parse from the PTS? All three should be around 3K for them to be competitive.

here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=672176

and here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6682647&postcount=126

Off-taunt (do NOT underestimate the value of this). Extremely good AoE in rotation (tactics/ap and hybrid spec). Largely unaffected by movement (especially in assault/pyro spec). Low setup time (1 GCD in all specs). Moderate-to-decent burst (especially in tactics/AP when Shoulder Cannon is up). 10m range on most abilities; 30m range on some (and yes, there are most definitely fights where this is a huge asset).

what you are writing is some kind of text trying to say VG are good. Parse shown above and below tends to disagree. Moreover, offtaunt isnt as beneficial to a grp than what marauder and sniper can bring in term of grp utility despite their already very strong dps.

Sentinels are better at melee dmg than VG and have arguably a better group utilty (predation)

Snipers are better at ranged dmg than VG and have arguably a better group utility (grp shield)

with that in mind, the advantage of having a VG over a marauder or a sniper is non existence.

the situation is similar in pvp except that taunts are nice but what a VG can do, other classes do it much better.

as for Kephess , see this post (tldr: sniper and marauder are top dps on this boss, both HM and NiM)

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=668630

what you are writing is some kind of text trying to say VG are good. Parse shown above and below tends to disagree. Moreover, offtaunt isnt as beneficial to a grp than what marauder and sniper can bring in term of grp utility despite their already very strong dps.

My main NiM group doesn't have an off-taunt in it, and I can tell you right now that I definitely miss it when things get real. Our second group *does* have an off-taunt, and I'll tell you right now that we abuse the heck out of that utility. Vanguards get a free stance shift, which means that they *can* viably off-tank for a moderate period of time without completely destroying their DPS. Neither of the other tank classes get this.

Sentinels are better at melee dmg than VG and have arguably a better group utilty (predation)

Best Vanguard DPS parse: 3126 (with not a single piece of Kell Dragon). Best Sentinel parse: ~3200 (with quite a bit of KD gear). I'd say it's a wash.

Also, I literally cannot remember the last time I used transcendence/predation in an operation. Warzone yes, operation no.

Snipers are better at ranged dmg than VG and have arguably a better group utility (grp shield)

The group shield is nice. I'm not sure if we use that more or less than the off-taunt. In any case, gunslingers and vanguards don't really compete for raid spots, since one is ranged and the other is melee.

as for Kephess , see this post (tldr: sniper and marauder are top dps on this boss, both HM and NiM)

Kephess is a gunslinger's fight. The mechanics are severely biased in favor of some classes and against others. I would say to use Thrasher, but Snipers will completely dominate that fight due to lol-roll spec.

You seem to be extremely determined to convince everyone that vanguards/powertechs are in the gutter as far as melee DPS classes. All I'm saying is that the evidence doesn't even remotely support that. Their damage is extremely competitive, and their utility is valuable enough to be used and planned around.

You seem to be extremely determined to convince everyone that vanguards/powertechs are in the gutter as far as melee DPS classes. All I'm saying is that the evidence doesn't even remotely support that. Their damage is extremely competitive, and their utility is valuable enough to be used and planned around.

There is not a single full tree spec VG in top dps parses, all the one that compete so far are hybrids. The links i posted above prove it.

What VG/PT would like is some meaningful top tier ability (especially pyro spec), there are plenty of threads either in this section or in the PT/VG forums explaining it.

i m just stating facts. Their dps isnt extremely competitive however you put it.

I think the problem KBN (and you already know where I'm going with this) is that many of us former Pyro/Assault players feel left out.

AP/Tactics is getting an awesome buff in 2.4 once it hits live...Hybrid is getting a slight nerf, and Pyro/Assault is just kinda, you know, there.

I love Pyro on my Powertech...it just feels right. AP has cooler animations (especially Immolate ), but I always disliked Flamethrower since it just felt clunky.

I've got a feeling KBN that if Pyro/Assault got the slight damage boost it needs, all the complaints about PT/VG DPS would go away over night.

There is not a single full tree spec VG in top dps parses, all the one that compete so far are hybrids. The links i posted above prove it.

…and? I don't have a problem with hybrids being competitive with full-tree builds. I think the full-tree Vanguard builds *should* be better than they are, but the fact is that you do have a build which works and produces competitive numbers. Try rolling a shadow and talk to me about uncompetitive DPS.

What VG/PT would like is some meaningful top tier ability (especially pyro spec), there are plenty of threads either in this section or in the PT/VG forums explaining it.

2.4 solves some of this. Fire Pulse is getting super-buffed, which is really nice. I totally agree though that Assault Plastique is a joke of a top-tier ability. Just because Vanguards have *a* build that works doesn't mean that the class doesn't have some major problems. I'd really like to see Assault/Pyro fixed…

i m just stating facts. Their dps isnt extremely competitive however you put it.

The fact that a vanguard DPS can and has parsed within a percentage point of the top-tier sentinels, gunslingers and scoundrels quite literally proves you wrong.

I've got a feeling KBN that if Pyro/Assault got the slight damage boost it needs, all the complaints about PT/VG DPS would go away over night.

One can hope… ;-)

On a less acerbic note, I totally agree that Pyro/Assault is unjustifiably low right now. The best parse I've seen from Pyro/Assault on the PTS is in the mid 2.6k range. The armor debuff will increase damage dealt by 0.5 * ((1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.2)) / (1 - 0.3) - 1) = 4.29%, while the execute increases damage dealt by about 3%. Thus, a raid boss shows higher DPS by (1 + 0.0429)*(1 + 0.03) - 1 = 7.42%. This only bumps Pyro/Assault DPS up to 2.8k, which is cripplingly low.

If Pyro/Assault had pre-2.0 levels of burst, I could see penalizing the sustained DPS slightly (as we see with other burst classes), but the fact is that Pyro/Assault is much more of a DoT spec post-2.0, and AP/Tactics really has more on-demand burst. That's why things aren't quite balanced as they currently stand.

 

On a less acerbic note, I totally agree that Pyro/Assault is unjustifiably low right now. The best parse I've seen from Pyro/Assault on the PTS is in the mid 2.6k range. The armor debuff will increase damage dealt by 0.5 * ((1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.2)) / (1 - 0.3) - 1) = 4.29%, while the execute increases damage dealt by about 3%. Thus, a raid boss shows higher DPS by (1 + 0.0429)*(1 + 0.03) - 1 = 7.42%. This only bumps Pyro/Assault DPS up to 2.8k, which is cripplingly low.

 

If Pyro/Assault had pre-2.0 levels of burst, I could see penalizing the sustained DPS slightly (as we see with other burst classes), but the fact is that Pyro/Assault is much more of a DoT spec post-2.0, and AP/Tactics really has more on-demand burst. That's why things aren't quite balanced as they currently stand.

Do you mind if I save this math for the PT questions (I'll give you credit, of course)?

Do you mind if I save this math for the PT questions (I'll give you credit, of course)?

No problem! I'm planning on developing a set of scalars for all specs which gives us a way of saying how much DPS is gained when moving from a dummy to a boss with raid buffs. I'm a long way off from having that completed though. :-(

…and? I don't have a problem with hybrids being competitive with full-tree builds. I think the full-tree Vanguard builds *should* be better than they are, but the fact is that you do have a build which works and produces competitive numbers. Try rolling a shadow and talk to me about uncompetitive DPS.

Well what you think is nice but the devs stated that they wanted full tree to be better than hybrids (dont have the quote but it was around 2.0). Currently it isnt the case as proved by these parses, i couldnt care less if hybrids are doing well.

Besides In pvp, it s just a cumbersome spec to play.

i dont see the point with the shadow dps? bc they have a crap dps, it s ok for vg to have a crap dps?

Well what you think is nice but the devs stated that they wanted full tree to be better than hybrids (dont have the quote but it was around 2.0). Currently it isnt the case as proved by these parses, i couldnt care less if hybrids are doing well.

The point is that you *do* have a spec that is doing well. If you want to boycott the hybrids, that's fine, but you can't deny that they exist and they're doing extremely well.

Besides In pvp, it s just a cumbersome spec to play.

Agreed. I actually think hybrid is a cumbersome spec to play in PvE too, since the random nature of the procs (and how it interacts with ammo management) has a tendency to make the DPS extremely unreliable. That and it feels clunky compared to a full ap/tactics build.

i dont see the point with the shadow dps? bc they have a crap dps, it s ok for vg to have a crap dps?

That wasn't what I was trying to say. No class should be broken, and shadows being in a terrible state isn't an excuse. My point was that vanguards have a DPS spec which is extremely competitive. Shadows don't. I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

On a less acerbic note, I totally agree that Pyro/Assault is unjustifiably low right now. The best parse I've seen from Pyro/Assault on the PTS is in the mid 2.6k range.

You must not have been looked that hard. I have posted this a few times and was part of the discussion. I did 2790 on my first attempt, and my second attempt was 2750 for 5 minute durations. I only parsed it twice. You can view this for yourself by clicking on the link and viewing both parses for full tree Pyro. You can also see I am not full 72 gear.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6682647&postcount=126

You must not have been look that hard. I have posted this a few times and was part of the discussion. I did 2790 on my first attempt, and my second attempt was 2750 for 5 minute durations. I only parsed it twice. You can view this for yourself by clicking on the link and viewing both parses for full tree Pyro. You can also see I am not full 72 gear.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6682647&postcount=126

I haven't been keeping tabs on all the latest updates for Pyro/Assault. 2790 is really nice! That's almost exactly 3k on a real boss pull, which is certainly high enough that I would call it "viable".

The point is that you *do* have a spec that is doing well. If you want to boycott the hybrids, that's fine, but you can't deny that they exist and they're doing extremely well.

So PT/VG players should be content with that? Should the devs be content with that despite the fact it goes against their idea of bringing down hybrids vs full tree spec? Is it your point?

I haven't been keeping tabs on all the latest updates for Pyro/Assault. 2790 is really nice! That's almost exactly 3k on a real boss pull, which is certainly high enough that I would call it "viable".

To be clear, this parse was taken on the 21st of August, after the change to AP Damage, IP Proc Rate, but before they made changes to the defensive cooldowns. So, technically, it should still be an accurate representation, unless stealth nerfs took place after this. Since parsing is a time consuming process, I have no plans to test and see if stealth changes took place.

FWIW I parsed with the intent to give the community accurate information by giving it my best in the three specs I tested. If I made anything more than a minor mistake, I would not use that parse, because one could easily manipulate the results. I also provided expanations for why my build setup was surpassing my Tactics build and that if I switched my gear around to an all power based build and switched out the set bonus to the 8% damage to RS, we'd like have a tie on the dummy.

Edit: I have two L55 VG's and an almost L55 PT... So I somestimes accidently reference the mirror abilities in te case of rail shot... Despite us being near the back of the pack for DPS, I find we are competitive enough in PVE. The stygma of a PT DPS is actually causing more issues than their results in a given operation. People point to these threads and think PT's and VGs are not viable. That isn't true at all. They are NOT top dog, but they are viable. Regardless, the VG/PT is my favorite class to play. I'd love them to be buffed, but I also don't want them mis-represented by under performers.

So PT/VG players should be content with that? Should the devs be content with that despite the fact it goes against their idea of bringing down hybrids vs full tree spec? Is it your point?

No, of course not. But you should be more specific in your complaints. Blanket statements like "VGs can't do competitive DPS" do nothing to help your cause since they are demonstrably false. More specific assertions about the full tree builds are more useful and more accurate.

No, of course not. But you should be more specific in your complaints. Blanket statements like "VGs can't do competitive DPS" do nothing to help your cause since they are demonstrably false. More specific assertions about the full tree builds are more useful and more accurate.

meh my bad then, point taken

i thought that was clear enough

Moreover, none of the PT specs present on this thread are full tree but hybrids

Off-taunt (do NOT underestimate the value of this). Extremely good AoE in rotation (tactics/ap and hybrid spec). Largely unaffected by movement (especially in assault/pyro spec). Low setup time (1 GCD in all specs). Moderate-to-decent burst (especially in tactics/AP when Shoulder Cannon is up). 10m range on most abilities; 30m range on some (and yes, there are most definitely fights where this is a huge asset).

 

Consider this: my raid group has a sentinel who is sorely tempted to swap to her vanguard DPS on the Nightmare Kephess fight. Not out of conceit either. Her vanguard out-parses her sentinel on Kephess in HM (by a wide margin), and her sentinel is in partial 75 gear and can easily over-top a 3k on a stationary fight.

That does not indicate that PT is better than marauder. It only indicates your buddy is better playing PT than marauder.

Currently, many people are in transition mode, and do not have top gear (75 yet) so many of the parses are reliant on who got the gear versus class potential. In June, when almost all PvE guilds where in 72s, there were only 4 parses on end game HM Ops that crossed the top 10 parses on 16 man and 8 man. 3 of them were hybrid and one AP. None of them were higher than 6 overall on that particular boss with the highest being 2,950 (or in that range), which seemed an anomaly, because all other parses where in the 2,800s. As it stands on live, PT stands before last among all classes on PvE damage potential, regarding your spec, with hybrid being the highest parser.

In 2.4 things will change, as hybrid have been royally ****ed and AP got a slight buff. But aside from AP gaining 7-8%, which based in the changes is not the case, PTs are still uncompetitve. Add the lack of utility and you an obsolete dps in end game PvE.