Flashpoints have been some of the most fun I have had in this game. The narrative of Kaon under siege and Lost island were really well done, also the content was challenging and rewarding. The times I had in lost island really put a smile on my face, that second boss that we all love and hate. Having that tier of flashpoints was extremely fufilling and to be as a progressive player, I miss it a lot. Flashpoints were a major selling point of the game when it launched and is the equal of dungeons in many other games, so they are important content to get right.

The current tier of flashpoints is bad, why.

1. The amount of time and effort it takes to complete a flashpoint, does not reward any tangible benefits to a progression raider. Massasi gear is crap and Bioware advertises it like its something worth getting. I would rather do an sm operation, much more worth my time. I do have eight alts to gear up, so I want to spend that time wisely.

2. The narrative and setting of the new flashpoints are laughable compared to the fantastic older flashpoints. Kaon under siege, Lost island, the false emperor, and many more were a joy to complete.

3. The older tier of flashpoints were all relatively close in skill required to complete, this tier places two new harder flashpoints with older easier ones. The new flashpoints drop the same crap gear, for being more challenging, stupid!

4. The new flashpoints are designed in such a way that nobody wants to do them! Bioware if your gonna challenge me with new Flashpoints, give me loot! At least one set piece at the end. Give me a reason to do them, you wasted all that time and resources creating content that few want to play. Most progression raiders do it once, go meh, nice challenge, crap rewards, I think iam over that. The casual players avoid these new flashpoints all together, and now since you mixed them with the easier ones, casuals avoid flashpoints for fear of the dreaded bloodhunt, lolz.

Bioware goes "oh no, people are gearing up too fast, lets give them utterly useless gear, in a challenging flashpoint, with poor narrative, that will buy us time". When nobody wants to do your content, it has the opposite effect, it makes progression raiders, say "its a waste of time" and it makes casuals shriek in terror. I as a progression raider have no reason to do the new flashpoints. The rewards are so poor, that I do not even want to play them. Keep making content that nobody wants to play, that will give you more time.

Hey Bioware this expansion should not be called "shadow of Revan" it should be called "revenge of the devs". Boohoo we made DF and DP too easy and they burned through our content cycle too quick, qq. Hey guys make stuff tough, thats cool, I like that. Make the flashpoints hard, but make them good, make the rewards worth it. I have eight toons to gear up, I dont think giving some decent loot in FP's would destroy your content cycle. Lost island HM, was some of the most fun I had in this game, it was a win for the game back then.

What extends the life of a game? Giving players nice rewards they have to work for, or giving players content that they play once and say "I think thats one and done for me".

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=799882

How does that address my post. The gear is still crap and now they are taking the challenge away, so I have less reason to even think about doing it.

You said

The new flashpoints are designed in such a way that NOBODY wants to do them! Bioware IF YOUR GONNA CHALLENGE ME with new Flashpoints, give me loot! At least one set piece at the end. GIVE ME a reason to do them,

What they did was reduce the level of challenge and increase the loot simply not to a level that you see rewarding for the PREVIOUS difficulty level. They did listen to your complaint, as it has been made by many non-stop since 3.0 dropped. Thing is of the "nobodies" you noted they chose to listen to a different subset of players. You simply don't like heir answer, but answer they did.

He's right about why higher end players don't queue for flashpoints.

I queued for them quite a bit at 50 because the rewards were worth it. At 55 they weren't worth it so I stopped, and that hasn't changed at 60. Off-pieces and comm rewards are literally vendor trash so what incentivizes a good player who knows what they're doing to go into this content? The answer is nothing unless for some reason they care about conquest points, which most weeks are more expediently farmed doing almost anything else.

I really don't understand why tier tokens can't drop off of bonus bosses or end bosses. It's not like people won't still do story mode ops, which would still be more efficient even if FPs did drop tokens.

How does that address my post. The gear is still crap and now they are taking the challenge away, so I have less reason to even think about doing it.

• Level 60 Hard Mode Flashpoints and Story Mode Operations now drop MK-2 gear instead of MK-1.
  

He's right about why higher end players don't queue for flashpoints.

 

I queued for them quite a bit at 50 because the rewards were worth it. At 55 they weren't worth it so I stopped, and that hasn't changed at 60. Off-pieces and comm rewards are literally vendor trash so what incentivizes a good player who knows what they're doing to go into this content? The answer is nothing unless for some reason they care about conquest points, which most weeks are more expediently farmed doing almost anything else.

 

I really don't understand why tier tokens can't drop off of bonus bosses or end bosses. It's not like people won't still do story mode ops, which would still be more efficient even if FPs did drop tokens.

Like Columi gear dropping from the last boss in HM 50s at release! Also when HM FPs had a lockout and could only be done once a day lol. #nostalga

EDIT: Or was it Tionese?

Like Columi gear dropping from the last boss in HM 50s at release! Also when HM FPs had a lockout and could only be done once a day lol. #nostalga

 

EDIT: Or was it Tionese?

Throughout all these discussions, it's really made me believe they've gone the wrong direction with the group finder. I remember it being so much different when it first came out. It made sense. There was a direction to it that players could follow, and it didn't feel limiting. This version is just so clunky to me. I jump in and use it for the weekly hard mode mission, and then when that's done it's a flashpoint once a day if I can spare the time outside of Tuesdays and Thursdays just to give myself an excuse to play. Tuesdays and Thursdays I raid so no need to use the GF for that. And 16 man only for ops?! Go home group finder, you're drunk.

The gear that dropped actually went way farther than just LI and Rakgoul. With a little googling I found that:

Columi dropped on the end bosses from:

Black Talon

Boarding Party

False Emperor

Battle of Illum

Directive 7

Foundry

Kaon

LI

Quite a lot of opportunity there to get story mode raid quality gear. I'm just baffled as to why this whole idea of tying hardmode flashpoints to story mode raids ended up getting the axe. But, it did. I'm sure a lot of the posts saying that the flashpoints are too hard will die down tremendously after tomorrow's patch. Maybe it'll get some back into the fold who knows.

Like Columi gear dropping from the last boss in HM 50s at release! Also when HM FPs had a lockout and could only be done once a day lol. #nostalga

 

EDIT: Or was it Tionese?

Both. But mostly Columi because Tionese was already the minimum recommended.

Back in the day those columi/Rakata tokens were class specific and the drop was mostly random (maybe class stacking affected drop chance a bit). Ie a consular/inquisitor unassembled piece that any other class couldn't use.

Adding MK-2s with good mods and enhancements will get me running again but for those with poor memory please don't ask they go back to how tokens were in early game.

Back in the day those columi/Rakata tokens were class specific and the drop was mostly random (maybe class stacking affected drop chance a bit). Ie a consular/inquisitor unassembled piece that any other class couldn't use.

 

Adding MK-2s with good mods and enhancements will get me running again but for those with poor memory please don't ask they go back to how tokens were in early game.

I think we're all just trying to say that back then there was a clear, and distinct, path for players to follow that was dictated by gear drops, and tier systems in group finder. It was, in my opinion, a bit more effective in getting people into the appropriate level content, as well as gear them up for the next levels as interest was piqued.

I'm not sure if what we currently see in the group finder, or gear drops, adds a real effective framework/ foundation for a casual player or otherwise to really feel that they can stand on to build interest in the end game content.

Why the group finder takes too long: Tanks don't want to queue into a bad group. And Conquest. Mainly Conquest.

I'm new at tanking. I don't even know what a bad group looks like.

But - I must admit that my one and only tank charactrer sits there with level 26 or so still ...

I don't even know what a bad group looks like.

Enemies take forever to kill because the dps sucks and you're constantly on low health or dying because the healer is... distracted.

I'm new at tanking. I don't even know what a bad group looks like.

But - I must admit that my one and only tank charactrer sits there with level 26 or so still ...

There are many things that DPS/Healer can do to make a Tank's life difficult. Pulling before the Tank, or healer that does damage instead of healing, for example. It's more forgiving in lower level flashpoint, but in HM it might cause a wipe if a player doesn't perform what is expected of their role. Korriban and Rakata HM are my favorite, until I met a healer that didn't know what cleanse is...

Pugging is a bit of a gamble. I always queue with a friend, at least I have someone I can count on.

Throughout all these discussions, it's really made me believe they've gone the wrong direction with the group finder. I remember it being so much different when it first came out. It made sense. There was a direction to it that players could follow, and it didn't feel limiting. This version is just so clunky to me. I jump in and use it for the weekly hard mode mission, and then when that's done it's a flashpoint once a day if I can spare the time outside of Tuesdays and Thursdays just to give myself an excuse to play. Tuesdays and Thursdays I raid so no need to use the GF for that. And 16 man only for ops?! Go home group finder, you're drunk.

 

The gear that dropped actually went way farther than just LI and Rakgoul. With a little googling I found that:

Columi dropped on the end bosses from:

Black Talon

Boarding Party

False Emperor

Battle of Illum

Directive 7

Foundry

Kaon

LI

 

Quite a lot of opportunity there to get story mode raid quality gear. I'm just baffled as to why this whole idea of tying hardmode flashpoints to story mode raids ended up getting the axe. But, it did. I'm sure a lot of the posts saying that the flashpoints are too hard will die down tremendously after tomorrow's patch. Maybe it'll get some back into the fold who knows.

Simple answer, they didn't want to people getting full set bonus pieces outside of ops, which in turn devalued the sm ops. Therefore they decided to put good gear in ops and the lesser quality gear in fps

Simple answer, they didn't want to people getting full set bonus pieces outside of ops, which in turn devalued the sm ops. Therefore they decided to put good gear in ops and the lesser quality gear in fps

The argument now is that the ops are too hard for people in their current state, so how do we balance it so that people feel like they can do the ops with keeping the ops challenging for those who want to use them as a spring board to hard modes., So we could end up just keeping things as is, which I am ok with since I don't believe the operations namely Ravagers is unpuggable, or we do something about either rewards given or we agree that some other part needs to be messed with. I don't want them to mess with the difficulty, so I'd rather offer better drops to gear people up so they can run these.

The argument now is that the ops are too hard for people in their current state, so how do we balance it so that people feel like they can do the ops with keeping the ops challenging for those who want to use them as a spring board to hard modes., So we could end up just keeping things as is, which I am ok with since I don't believe the operations namely Ravagers is unpuggable, or we do something about either rewards given or we agree that some other part needs to be messed with. I don't want them to mess with the difficulty, so I'd rather offer better drops to gear people up so they can run these.

I guess expecting people to a) learn how to play their class and b) pay attention to the mechanics is too much to ask. Game too hard for KDY Grads!

If we just overgear everyone to the extent that they can faceroll the content, that'll fix it!

Honestly, what they need is a clear sense of gear progression. If I was new how would I know that the 198 vendor one is worse than a 192 or 186 token gear. Either make comm gear balanced but a 2 level lower (190 and 196) or allow us to buy all individual enhancement mods and armor (without set bonus) from comm vendor at a the price of an entire com gear armor slot or something so that there is some sense that you can get a second best upgrade and its clear while makings sure Ops are the primary way to gain gear but allow us to use our comms to equip other non-priority toons in a progressive manner. Right now unless your a tank looking for B mods, comms are ohly good for armor and offhand. Top gear doesn't have to be included in this, and as long as they keep the comms scarce it should be fine.

Why run the daily reward for FP for elite coms when I can craft a better enhancement at 186. And I can do that while not even playing the game)

Honestly, what they need is a clear sense of gear progression. If I was new how would I know that the 198 vendor one is worse than a 192 or 186 token gear. Either make comm gear balanced but a 2 level lower (190 and 196) or allow us to buy all individual enhancement mods and armor (without set bonus) from comm vendor at a the price of an entire com gear armor slot or something so that there is some sense that you can get a second best upgrade and its clear while makings sure Ops are the primary way to gain gear but allow us to use our comms to equip other non-priority toons in a progressive manner. Right now unless your a tank looking for B mods, comms are ohly good for armor and offhand. Top gear doesn't have to be included in this, and as long as they keep the comms scarce it should be fine.

Why run the daily reward for FP for elite coms when I can craft a better enhancement at 186. And I can do that while not even playing the game)

this +1

I guess expecting people to a) learn how to play their class and b) pay attention to the mechanics is too much to ask. Game too hard for KDY Grads!

 

If we just overgear everyone to the extent that they can faceroll the content, that'll fix it!

Unfortunately, there's a seamingly larger divide than we want to admit when it comes to running operations, and what's an appropriate level difficulty for story mode. I personally don't think they are that bad as I've said before. But, I can't just ignore the opposite claim if it's reasonable. There are definitely those who parade around acting like they're "casual" when in reality they are lazy. Those people of course I don't agree with. The ones who have actual reasons might be more correct than you and me. The only way we'll know is what happens on Bioware's end when it comes to patches. If the operations start getting hit, well we were on the smaller side.

So is the answer to simply to nothing, or do something?

I think that the argument where one says that the recommended gear levels are off is probably more correct than incorrect. The ones who just want to faceroll through a randomly grouped pug by having a dance off with each boss are clearly the ones I hope Bioware doesn't listen to. Not to say dance offs aren't fun and all...

Honestly, what they need is a clear sense of gear progression. If I was new how would I know that the 198 vendor one is worse than a 192 or 186 token gear. Either make comm gear balanced but a 2 level lower (190 and 196) or allow us to buy all individual enhancement mods and armor (without set bonus) from comm vendor at a the price of an entire com gear armor slot or something so that there is some sense that you can get a second best upgrade and its clear while makings sure Ops are the primary way to gain gear but allow us to use our comms to equip other non-priority toons in a progressive manner. Right now unless your a tank looking for B mods, comms are ohly good for armor and offhand. Top gear doesn't have to be included in this, and as long as they keep the comms scarce it should be fine.

Why run the daily reward for FP for elite coms when I can craft a better enhancement at 186. And I can do that while not even playing the game)

+1

And also, why not make bosses in FPs drop good single mods and/or enhancements of 192 or 196 quality? Since the good mods are not available from comms gear anymore, this would be a decent compromise to get people to do the FPs, but also to not make gear progression too fast, because you don't get full pieces. The set bonus armorings would still be available from raid gear only.