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Whos the bad guys?


Izutah

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Still got a shot at life.

 

Yup. And you can also get experimented on by mad scientists then forced to fight other prisoners to test the results of the experiments. Or possibly get eaten by your fellow prisoners. All for the whopping crime of being opposed to the political maneuvers of the folks in power. Like chopping off the legs of a jaywalker.

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Yup. And you can also get experimented on by mad scientists then forced to fight other prisoners to test the results of the experiments. Or possibly get eaten by your fellow prisoners. All for the whopping crime of being opposed to the political maneuvers of the folks in power. Like chopping off the legs of a jaywalker.

When you find out about the Belsavis experiments on the Republic side, it's all "That's horrifying" and the senator is like "Don't tell anyone"

 

When you find out about that on the Imperial side, it's all "Why didn't we think of that first" and "Wow, I didn't think the Republic had it in them" and "Let's take over the program now that it's shut down."

 

Every bit of corruption and evil in the Republic is matched and far exceeded by the Sith.

 

Defending the Sith Empire is like glamorizing the Middle Ages. Sure, if you were a Lord it was a sweet setup. As one of the many peasants, it was horrible.

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When you find out about the Belsavis experiments on the Republic side, it's all "That's horrifying" and the senator is like "Don't tell anyone"

 

When you find out about that on the Imperial side, it's all "Why didn't we think of that first" and "Wow, I didn't think the Republic had it in them" and "Let's take over the program now that it's shut down."

 

Every bit of corruption and evil in the Republic is matched and far exceeded by the Sith.

 

Defending the Sith Empire is like glamorizing the Middle Ages. Sure, if you were a Lord it was a sweet setup. As one of the many peasants, it was horrible.

 

Depends on the npc and they type of character you're playing. Some npcs think it's horrible, some don't. Some player characters think it's horrible, some don't. They did a good job of making it possible to be both ls and ds in both factions, and to be able to find both good and bad things about both sides that make that work. In the movies, everything is black and white, the game has a lot more grey. Why not embrace that instead of trying to argue that it doesn't exist?

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Depends on the npc and they type of character you're playing. Some npcs think it's horrible, some don't. Some player characters think it's horrible, some don't. They did a good job of making it possible to be both ls and ds in both factions, and to be able to find both good and bad things about both sides that make that work. In the movies, everything is black and white, the game has a lot more grey. Why not embrace that instead of trying to argue that it doesn't exist?

I agree that its definitely not black and white. I just believe that the Republic is whitish-grey and the Sith Empire is blackish-grey.

 

Individuals can overcome their environments and be good or bad. And I can imagine an empire run by a non-Sith being successful and worthy of respect (Grand Admiral Thrawn in the distant future perhaps?) But the state of the Sith Empire at the time of the Old Republic, it's leaders promote an environment where evil can flourish and good is hard to come by.

 

It can be argued that the blatant evilness of the Sith Empire is preferable to the hidden corruption of the Republic, but that isn't my view.

 

I do enjoy the options presented in the game, though. My Sith Inquisitor is an evil **** and relishes in it. My Imperial Agent, on the other hand, is a consummate professional and is loyal to the Empire. She often times makes light side decisions if they help her mission and objectives. This puts her at odds with the many Sith in power, and I believe that is an accurate depiction of the flaws of the Sith Empire at the time of the game.

 

The Esseles vs Black Talon is an interesting example.

 

Everyone on the Black Talon dies, and not at the hands of the Republic, but at the hands of Kilran's agents. And all of this to capture an Imperial General who was defecting to the Republic after seeing the planned atrocities of the forthcoming war.

 

Edited by Khevar
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Project Noble Focus was only used on savage convicts and criminals and I for one actually agree in the logic of using beings like thos for intelligence gathering. But then again you are talking to someone who believes chain gangs should exist. Convicts and criminals should at least be forced to build and maintain the highways in our country if they are going to get all that free room and board.

 

And think of what the Empire would do as an alternative to cryo sleep. Probably put you in one of those torture stasis devices where not only can you not move but your viscera are being torn apart form the inside as well. A long spell of dreamless sleep certainly sounds more plausible to that,

 

The few bad apples that represent corruption in the senate are a small percentage of the Republic cmpared to the overwhelming percentage of ruthless Nazi-like Moffs and Sith lords who would sooner kill you then look at you. Most dissident of the Republic who speak out against corruption of the Republic are just a bunch of brainless conspiracy theorists similar to the people we have in our country who think George Bush caused 9/11 on purpose.

 

Also as an example of Empire cruelty and what the Republic might do instead. Take the brain dead "lab rat" in the Imperial base in Voss. He is treated by his superiors like he is an animal. You know that the Republic, particularly the Jedi, would be tryng to find a way to help him instead. Same ting for that poor Sith's apprentice left outside of town and injured by animals. He is left to die. Now if he worked for Jedi he would be brought back, given a warm meal and bed and nursed back to health.

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I agree that its definitely not black and white. I just believe that the Republic is whitish-grey and the Sith Empire is blackish-grey.

 

Individuals can overcome their environments and be good or bad. And I can imagine an empire run by a non-Sith being successful and worthy of respect (Grand Admiral Thrawn in the distant future perhaps?) But the state of the Sith Empire at the time of the Old Republic, it's leaders promote an environment where evil can flourish and good is hard to come by.

 

It can be argued that the blatant evilness of the Sith Empire is preferable to the hidden corruption of the Republic, but that isn't my view.

 

I do enjoy the options presented in the game, though. My Sith Inquisitor is an evil **** and relishes in it. My Imperial Agent, on the other hand, is a consummate professional and is loyal to the Empire. She often times makes light side decisions if they help her mission and objectives. This puts her at odds with the many Sith in power, and I believe that is an accurate depiction of the flaws of the Sith Empire at the time of the game.

 

The Esseles vs Black Talon is an interesting example.

 

Everyone on the Black Talon dies, and not at the hands of the Republic, but at the hands of Kilran's agents. And all of this to capture an Imperial General who was defecting to the Republic after seeing the planned atrocities of the forthcoming war.

 

I don`t disagree. `Good` behavior on the republic side doesn`t have to be justified, where as on the empire side it does. The bad aspects of the empire are well known.

 

However, I think those who minimize/excuse republic corruption and bad deeds, or do the same with the fact that there are good people in the empire as well as those who are DS but still honorable (ie. Scourge), do the game and its writing a disservice. Sometimes, who the good guys are can get a little murky and that's awesome.

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A corrupt politician in the Republic has less power than a Sith Lord who has exactly as much power as he is supposed to, so even a corrupt version of Republic system is not as bad as the Empire's system. And no, Republic's evils aren't as bad as the Empire's evils. The Republic doesn't have slave uprisings and constant turmoil from inter-sith fighting. Edited by OldVengeance
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...

 

However, I think those who minimize/excuse republic corruption and bad deeds, or do the same with the fact that there are good people in the empire as well as those who are DS but still honorable (ie. Scourge), do the game and its writing a disservice. Sometimes, who the good guys are can get a little murky and that's awesome.

I can see your point. I'm not actually trying to justify the obvious corruption in the Republic.

 

I've just seen the argument that "the Republic is just as bad as the Empire, they just hide it better," and it comes across as silly to me.

 

If I were living in the Old Republic universe, the Sith Empire would be a frightening place to be, dominated by fear and distrust. You could be murdered by a Sith Lord on the steps of the Dromund Kaas plaza just because you looked sideways at him as he walked by, and everyone else would just look down and pretend it didn't happen.

 

If you were on Coruscant, at the steps of the Senate Tower, would you expect any Jedi Master to ever behave that way?

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I can see your point. I'm not actually trying to justify the obvious corruption in the Republic.

 

I've just seen the argument that "the Republic is just as bad as the Empire, they just hide it better," and it comes across as silly to me.

 

If I were living in the Old Republic universe, the Sith Empire would be a frightening place to be, dominated by fear and distrust. You could be murdered by a Sith Lord on the steps of the Dromund Kaas plaza just because you looked sideways at him as he walked by, and everyone else would just look down and pretend it didn't happen.

 

If you were on Coruscant, at the steps of the Senate Tower, would you expect any Jedi Master to ever behave that way?

 

I agree and I think this is the root of the argument. I hate to use another Nazi reference but I think it fits well here. The USA has done a number of unquestionably morally dubious things over the course of the 20th century. For instance, interning Japanese Americans during the Second World War. But that doesn't mean that during World War 2, the Allies were exactly the same as the Axis powers.

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That's totally not what I was saying. I think there are a couple of different conversations going on in this thread that are being taken as being one and the same.

Ah, my mistake. Looking over your posts I believe your point is the actual depth of the storytelling would be lost if someone were to look at things in terms of "everything the Republic does is good" and "everything the Empire does is evil"

 

If I've understood you correctly, I believe this is an excellent point.

 

Some of the other opinions in this thread have been expressed as "either side can be good or bad, depending on your point of view." That was more what I was debating against.

Edited by Khevar
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I agree and I think this is the root of the argument. I hate to use another Nazi reference but I think it fits well here. The USA has done a number of unquestionably morally dubious things over the course of the 20th century. For instance, interning Japanese Americans during the Second World War. But that doesn't mean that during World War 2, the Allies were exactly the same as the Axis powers.

 

The Nazi argument is the best argument you can put forth. The Galactic Empire was a sci-fi copy of the Third Reich. The Empire even had Stormtroopers. If that doesn't say anything I don't know what will.

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The Nazi argument is the best argument you can put forth. The Galactic Empire was a sci-fi copy of the Third Reich. The Empire even had Stormtroopers. If that doesn't say anything I don't know what will.

Perhaps, but I feel that a more entertaining debate is had when Godwin's law isn't involved. :)

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Perhaps, but I feel that a more entertaining debate is had when Godwin's law isn't involved. :)

 

Maybe so, but it has been stated numerous times that the Galactic Empire is similar in numerous ways to the Third Reich. I would compare the Sith Empire to Ancient Rome with some Communism attached.

 

Anyway. It's obvious that the Sith Empire is the bad guys. Anyone who doesn't think so needs to check their moral compass.

 

Why?

 

Because slavery is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Murder in general is wrong, but murder just because you feel like it is wrong. Need I go on. I've pretty much noted every evil deed the Empire has commited.

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Ah, my mistake. Looking over your posts I believe your point is the actual depth of the storytelling would be lost if someone were to look at things in terms of "everything the Republic does is good" and "everything the Empire does is evil"

 

If I've understood you correctly, I believe this is an excellent point.

 

Some of the other opinions in this thread have been expressed as "either side can be good or bad, depending on your point of view." That was more what I was debating against.

 

I wasn't talking to you there, but others. You got my point exactly. :)

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In this game there is a very clear Good side and bad Side.

Unlike WoW where it's more of just two sides, though you could easily argue the Horde are the good guys, and there is of course the NPC Scourge which are the obvious bad guys.

I thought this was going to be more about individual characters. Not the PCs, as you choose your side, but the major NPCs. For example I would think Garza is a bad guy. Revan, a good guy.

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In this game there is a very clear Good side and bad Side.

Unlike WoW where it's more of just two sides, though you could easily argue the Horde are the good guys, and there is of course the NPC Scourge which are the obvious bad guys.

I thought this was going to be more about individual characters. Not the PCs, as you choose your side, but the major NPCs. For example I would think Garza is a bad guy. Revan, a good guy.

 

Hmm...you think npc Revan is a good guy and npc Scourge is a bad guy? I think you just proved my point about the level of murky involved in deciding those alignments.

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There are good and bad on both sides and corruption is in every government so just because someone is on the empire side doesn't mean they are bad right away they might just believe in that type of government and be loyal to it yet it doesn't mean they believe in every bad thing the government does or decides to do. Sometimes the people in charge are who are really respondable for all the bad things since they decide everything and can change and corrupt governments into something it wasn't meant to be. Even the Sith and its council have different sides to it and u can go as far as to say a good and bad side to them.

 

I for one like Revans philosophy and yet both republic and the empire sith and jedi considered him an enemy because his ideas and philosophy weren't one and the same with what the republic or empire believes in I find Revans beliefs to be somewhat middle ground with no sides really. Until there's only one government where both good and bad can coexist all sides for me are good and bad or at least have both in it and you can't judge everyone the same because you believe their side is bad. This is why there are wars and all other things we consider bad maybe if we stopped judging so harshly and without prejudice a lot of it would stop and there would be more peace.

 

Btw what is bad is it something we feel is bad or is something your government decides is bad because what is bad or good can change in people's minds so fast when governments or society decides otherwise so think about that before you judge because how many times has whats good became bad or bad became good? Sometimes things aren't the way they seem and outside influence doesn't help either and that's how I feel about who and what is good or bad and its one big dilemma no matter how you look at it so all you can do is just do what you think is morally right no matter what side you choose.

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Well you no what i mean. You meant to have the good and bad guys lol. Just wanted to hear the views of people.

 

Having good guys and bad guys is one point of view, having multiple sides no of which are totally good or evil is another, which is were the EU ended up.

 

But if you have to have the Good versus Evil debate, then the Sith are definately evil, that's the whole point of the Sith. They have no restrictions on their desires (good restricts itself from certain actions), they commit mass murder and other atrocities on a whim, and believe that if you can get away with it then it's not a crime. This is a definition of Evil.

 

The Republic whilst flawed at least tries to be good, corrupt individuals pervert these intentions, but the majority are good, and rty to act accordingly.

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From a conceptual point of view, the Sith are tyrannical, bigoted, opressive towards non-humans.The Republic is trying to hold up ideals of democracy, liberty and equality.

 

However, you cannot decide which side is good or bad based on the actions of the individual, that's narrow-minded and illogical. One bad general who makes a morally bad choice does not mean the Republic as a whole is bad. Likewise, one marciful Sith does not mean the Empire is lenient. If you want to argue about which side is good or bad you can only look at the ideological differences and ignore the actions of individuals. Even leaders are exempt from this. One war mongering chancellor, like we have now in-game, does not mean the Republic is war mongering or "evil".

 

If you want to argue about morality then that's a different subject. Morality is subjective and mirrors the culture you are born and raised in. Did the Mongols consider themselves evil for butchering 20-80 *million* people in the middle ages? No. It was their god-given (not the jewish god, mind you, just god as in the power that controls the world) mission to subjucate the world so it was ok. Did the Romans think themselves are evil? No, enslaving the weak was the natural order of things. Of course, in both cultures there were those who didn't think like this but that changes little. Just like now there are people who don't agree with western values when it comes to morality, but that doesn't change the average cultural values we hold.

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