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Old Ravage as a Legendary dcd utility with an extra kick.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Old Ravage as a Legendary dcd utility with an extra kick.

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
05.15.2018 , 10:30 AM | #1
Yeah. Can we have an Old Ravage (3 second channel) back as a utility at the same time partially solving survival and mobility problems? Legendary tree is extremely lackluster with everything there but Mad Dash and Awe (for tank) affecting utilities being utter trash.

It would be a PvP utility with no effect on PvE other than fluff for those that want their old animations back but won't mind their rotations suffering. It would provide a defensive buff over duration, deal large (old) burst damage and have additional controlling effects. It wouldn't be affected by talent trees - meaning you won't get a damage bonus to utility Ravage if your spec tree has it and Shatter will no longer reset it.


Utility could probably replace the one with range for scream or Preparation one (heroicl). No one is using those.
Quote:
"Raging Tantrum"
Ravage becomes a 3 second channelled ability that deals x damage, cannot be interrupted and grants Juggernaut's Resolve, reducing the damage you take from all sources by 75% and makes you immune to all controlling effects over the course of its duration. Additionally, Ravage hinders the target, preventing the use of high mobility actions and escapes such as charges, vanishes, and speed boosts for 2 seconds. Discipline talents no longer apply any effects on Ravage. This utility comes with reduced damage and provides no hindering effect and Juggernaut's Resolve for Immortal discipline.
Before you shout OP look at every other class has. This is nothing compared to obfuscate, which was crazy insane for months, and now grants massive damage redution for whole 6 seconds with only 45 second cooldown.
Ravage would be put on its 18 seconds base cooldown and will be unaffected by Discipline trees meaning no extra damage and no resets from Shatter so it wouldn't be necessarily be a viable PvE option due to rage management. Given how poorly jugs do now this kind of cc protection and damage reduction while doing damage is more than reasonable given that you can only use it 3 times within a minute. I wouldn't mind it having cooldown increased to 20 or 22 seconds.

This sounds reasonable and in-line with everything all other classes have except for PT. Maybe not as part of a single package but they have a ton of other abilities to help their mobility, damage reduction and so on.

HaoZhao's Avatar


HaoZhao
05.15.2018 , 12:16 PM | #2
This would break Juggernaut tanking in PVE. Ravage has a rather short cooldown and you'd just end up using it to avoid every big hit from every big boss. Jugg tanks are already quite good at clearing all PVE content on all difficulties, so giving them this would require their existing DCDs to be rebalanced or it would require turning ravage into a 3 minute cooldown.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of just flat damage reduction being applied as a buff, because Invincible already serves that exact function. If you were to give Juggs a new DCD, I'd rather see something like Arsenal Chaff Flare where a few incoming attacks get absorbed or something.

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
05.15.2018 , 12:19 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by HaoZhao View Post
This would break Juggernaut tanking in PVE. Ravage has a rather short cooldown and you'd just end up using it to avoid every big hit from every big boss. Jugg tanks are already quite good at clearing all PVE content on all difficulties, so giving them this would require their existing DCDs to be rebalanced or it would require turning ravage into a 3 minute cooldown.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of just flat damage reduction being applied as a buff, because Invincible already serves that exact function. If you were to give Juggs a new DCD, I'd rather see something like Arsenal Chaff Flare where a few incoming attacks get absorbed or something.
Apparently it was tl;dr for you. Immortal would not benefit from the dcd buff. Just like now we have utilities that change 2 things but dps spec benefits only from one and it's so bad that it's just not worth taking. It would at least be fluff uption to the tanks in pve and in pvp to those that would rather have more burst (3 sec ravage would be amazing for hardswitch combined with root utility) without adding more to their defensive capabilities. Jug already has too many abilities, adding additional DCD would be a bit bloaty so existing stuff should be either reworked or replaced.

PrometheanDeath's Avatar


PrometheanDeath
05.15.2018 , 02:02 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Alec_Fortescue View Post
Yeah. Can we have an Old Ravage (3 second channel) back as a utility at the same time partially solving survival and mobility problems? Legendary tree is extremely lackluster with everything there but Mad Dash and Awe (for tank) affecting utilities being utter trash.

It would be a PvP utility with no effect on PvE other than fluff for those that want their old animations back but won't mind their rotations suffering. It would provide a defensive buff over duration, deal large (old) burst damage and have additional controlling effects. It wouldn't be affected by talent trees - meaning you won't get a damage bonus to utility Ravage if your spec tree has it and Shatter will no longer reset it.


Utility could probably replace the one with range for scream or Preparation one (heroicl). No one is using those.


Before you shout OP look at every other class has. This is nothing compared to obfuscate, which was crazy insane for months, and now grants massive damage redution for whole 6 seconds with only 45 second cooldown.
Ravage would be put on its 18 seconds base cooldown and will be unaffected by Discipline trees meaning no extra damage and no resets from Shatter so it wouldn't be necessarily be a viable PvE option due to rage management. Given how poorly jugs do now this kind of cc protection and damage reduction while doing damage is more than reasonable given that you can only use it 3 times within a minute. I wouldn't mind it having cooldown increased to 20 or 22 seconds.

This sounds reasonable and in-line with everything all other classes have except for PT. Maybe not as part of a single package but they have a ton of other abilities to help their mobility, damage reduction and so on.
All I see are nerfs and trying to roll ravage into a combination of wishes, sorry. The fact that it has listed it does nothing but nerf jugg tanking already raises red flags on why this shouldn't be a utility. Also what is your expected damage increase that ravage would get? Very rough calculations ravage would need to have a base damage of 20k to make up for the extra GCD it takes up to make it worth taking...that's not happening. The DR makes sense, but many reasons why this just isn't worth it. The affect of taking it in PVE would be to nerf damage, if you don't want it to nerf damage if taken, then having the ridiculous base damage is the only way. Vengeance relies on fluidity, if shatter can't reset ravage, there will be need to use 3 vicious slashes in a row, yes literally 3 which will now have to be saber strike due to the high cost in rage for filler. Rage is the same deal, it'll take up retaliation most likely, and again the 20k base damage is the only way to make it worth taking. A utility is meant to help a class, but having the affects of "Shatter will no longer reset it" or "It wouldn't be affected by talent trees" is a huge deal breaker. Vengeance will lose the ability to function as a dps spec resulting to carnage level lows having to use saber strike just to keep the loss of GCDs going. Jugg tank would probably take the worst of it. "It wouldn't be affected by talent trees" meaning the defensive buff you get when using it in tank spec would also be gone, now there's no point. Let's not forget about other utilities: Overwhelm "Ravage immobilizes for 3 seconds". I shall assume you thought this would be built in to your description, cause if not there's nothing preventing me from strafing right and walking out of your ravage's range breaking your DR affect gained from channeling ravage. If it doesn't however what happens with Overwhelm? A simplified version of your description would just be to say "Gain boss immunity for the duration of ravage" cause that's what being immune to all controlling effects for the duration means. Even assassin tanks don't get that on depredating volts even though it does more damage and can be used while moving. I get your intentions of wanting to buff jugg, but this might be wanting to combine a needed buff with an idea that was ruled out for the better of juggs. Also noticed that in your description of the reworked ravage that you want it to act like Gore from Carnage mara which I think is better kept as a unique thing to carnage.

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
05.15.2018 , 02:51 PM | #5
wat? I didnt get a single thing u typed. I magine ravage would return to the numbers from before 5.0

Dude, you didn't read again. This is a utility meaning it's completely optional to take. I wouldn't use it in PvE but I sure as hell would love to have powerful ravage with extra benefits in PvP in my Vigilance or Rage spec. Exactly like right now there are utilities that are absolutely useless and worthless in pve but worth having in pvp and vice versa. There is also a ton of utilities that are not good for anything.

No, this utility it would not kill vigilance, you probably have no understanding of how PvP works and how important burst and control is over sustained damage and 3 second channeled ravage every 18 seconds with extra benefits would be far more beneficial than 12 second cd wet noodle strike. You didn't bother reading the thing. Overwhelm is mentioned by the very end. It remains as a separate utility.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
05.15.2018 , 02:55 PM | #6
Honestly it's just a bit silly to completely overhaul ravage to the point of it not getting the rotational benefits, just to get the channeled ravage back, there's other ways to buff jug dps survivability, there's no reason to tie it to Ravage.

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
05.15.2018 , 03:06 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Honestly it's just a bit silly to completely overhaul ravage to the point of it not getting the rotational benefits, just to get the channeled ravage back, there's other ways to buff jug dps survivability, there's no reason to tie it to Ravage.
Lots of people like old ravage and wish for the old animation to be back. This is actually brilliant solution for PvP where Ravage would be much more beneficial of an ability and provide much needed damage reduction and cc control. It could be used for Pve by those that don't care about their dps but it would not be optimal. Marauders and Mercs get utilities that completely rework their abilities so why not jugs? Look at Mercenary with their reflective shield comptely reworked by an utility or kolto overdrive thing. Ruthless Agressor affected by serveral utilities and turned into an overpowered ability.

I find that channeled ability would be more suitable and a compromise - you'll get dcd and cc immun benefit at a price of being stationary for three seconds while dealing significant amount of damage over 3 seconds and then clipping it at the end with an Impale or Furious Strike for nice burst or used as a well-timed dcd when enemy wants to unleash their burst you. Right now, in PvP, ravage is nothing but a filler and not even used in Rage spec.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
05.15.2018 , 03:27 PM | #8
They seem to be straying away from the clipping bit if the combat sentinel changes are to be believed. If you want master strike back as a channel you can expect it to be completely interruptable and unclippable.

Aka I think they would bring it back in a way to screw us worse than having the greater mobility allowed by having it be instant.

krosswong's Avatar


krosswong
05.15.2018 , 03:47 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
They seem to be straying away from the clipping bit if the combat sentinel changes are to be believed. If you want master strike back as a channel you can expect it to be completely interruptable and unclippable.

Aka I think they would bring it back in a way to screw us worse than having the greater mobility allowed by having it be instant.
Stahp! the dev's don't need your help coming up with stupid ideas...
The Guildkiller Legacy

Harbinger's #1 pub side trash.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
05.18.2018 , 07:57 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Alec_Fortescue View Post
Yeah. Can we have an Old Ravage (3 second channel) back as a utility at the same time partially solving survival and mobility problems? Legendary tree is extremely lackluster with everything there but Mad Dash and Awe (for tank) affecting utilities being utter trash.

It would be a PvP utility with no effect on PvE other than fluff for those that want their old animations back but won't mind their rotations suffering. It would provide a defensive buff over duration, deal large (old) burst damage and have additional controlling effects. It wouldn't be affected by talent trees - meaning you won't get a damage bonus to utility Ravage if your spec tree has it and Shatter will no longer reset it.


Utility could probably replace the one with range for scream or Preparation one (heroicl). No one is using those.


Before you shout OP look at every other class has. This is nothing compared to obfuscate, which was crazy insane for months, and now grants massive damage redution for whole 6 seconds with only 45 second cooldown.
Ravage would be put on its 18 seconds base cooldown and will be unaffected by Discipline trees meaning no extra damage and no resets from Shatter so it wouldn't be necessarily be a viable PvE option due to rage management. Given how poorly jugs do now this kind of cc protection and damage reduction while doing damage is more than reasonable given that you can only use it 3 times within a minute. I wouldn't mind it having cooldown increased to 20 or 22 seconds.

This sounds reasonable and in-line with everything all other classes have except for PT. Maybe not as part of a single package but they have a ton of other abilities to help their mobility, damage reduction and so on.
Just for the record, Obsfucate isn't an attack, it doesn't do any damage and you can't use it on anyone of your range and only effects the one person it was used on. Furthermore Obfuscate does not grant any damage reduction whatsoever. It effects accuracy, nothing more.

The damage reduction is a utility option. Additionally it was nerfed and no longer provides the benefit it use to have, effectively having taken away any form of anti cc. The damage reduction isn't the point of it, it never was. With all the CC that gets thrown around every three seconds, not having any anti cc effects performance greatly and we are getting stunned locked to death like crazy. You cannot be anywhere near an Operative or Assy. The lose of the 75% chance to resist cc's has also greatly reduced uptime. You are constantly slowed and rooted as well.

Considering your are stating that your idea is not OP compared to Obfuscate kinda falls short when you consider it was just nerfed to hell. Obfuscate is the means by which Ruthless aggressor is applied and must obey the conditions of it.

I'm not sure I have ever seen a DCD that has range requirements and cannot be used on a ranged attacker at all.

That said, you are stating that your ability is not OP and go on to site the cc resistance of RA that they just took away from us. So yeah, if it was too much for Marauders than it would be too much for anyone else as well. No one has more 'right' to anti-cc measures than anyone else.

Your ability idea is trying to do three things at the same time.

The only difference is mobility between Marauders and Juggs is predation and Juggs do have multiple options to speed boosts.

Ravage is a shared attack by both Marauders and Juggs. They are exactly the same.

A caster timed attack that can't be interupted or stopped makes the cast aspect a moot point. If you can move while casting as well, once again, the cast aspect is a non-issue. The only difference between the present ravage and the old ravage therefore would be it takes 2 GCDs instead of one. Present Ravage, the damage is garbage but it is deemed 'better' by some [I don't think it's better] because it only takes one GCD and doesn't have a cast time and can't be interupted. That, of course comes with the price of less damage.

If a 75% chance to resist CC is too much for Marauders, it would be too much for Juggs. CC is the bane of all melee classes in this meta [except Fury, and Fury is presently far too strong. Anni is no where near as strong and Carnage couldn't possibly be any more crap. It is the worst melee dps spec in the entire game and it's a pure DPS class with no heals and no anti-cc measures. The damage is a joke. The entire play style was altered and made useless. It doesn't benefit from the high alacrity build. The higher alacrity build is a DPS LOSS in all modes of play.

Everyone's worse than Fury and everyone's better than Carnage.

Just because there are options in utilities doesn't mean you can necessarily afford to take them. There are in many cases 'mandatory' utilities that are far more important and leave little room for wiggle.

I preferred the old Ravage myself, don't get me wrong, I agree with you it's total garbage now