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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0


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[*]There insectoid bodies possess a strong, chitinous exoskeleton which acts as a natural armour making them able to shrug off injuries that would cripple most other species e.g. a bash from a storm beast. It also protects them from nerve or pressure point strikes to neck and shoulders, techniques Sith assassins are likely to use.

 

This isn't the Karate Kid, no one actually uses "pressure point strikes" when you're trying to assassinate your target. It would be either a vibroblade in the back, or a blaster shot to the back of the head.

 

Not to mention, the only real pressure points on a humanoid are the eyes and jugular notch. Can't stand that hippie nonsense when it comes to "pressure point strikes" and Vulcan death grips or what have you.

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(A somewhat lengthy summary of the stage of the debate so far.)

 

How G0-T0 would locate and destroy Traya if she fled to Korriban < this IMO is the most important factor we need to consider, as it is the most likely outcome if G0-T0's plan fails.

 

That was a very nice summary.

 

Im still a little if-y on this whole "Traya will sense the attack coming" stuff. Again, I offer the example of the Emperor and the Death Star. He was te greatest Sith in all of history and no stranger to force visions. And yet, when his fortress underwent a full-scale invasion, he was sure he would win. Similarly, Traya will not have anything to tell her she's not going to be the victor until its too late.

 

To expand on this, Traya has never exhibited too much foresight, other than the fortune telling at the very end. She was betrayed by Sion and Nilius and didn't foresee it. She didn't flee Malachor then. I'm confused as to why G0-T0s assault is different.

 

On where Traya will go, I assume we're assuming it's Korriban? G0-T0 is kinda a history nut. For sure when it comes to Revan. He would obviously know of Korriban. And if you're facing a Sith Lord in an all out war, and they disappear.... Where else would they go?

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There's that part where the bulk of G0-T0's forces will be destroyed by Traya's fleet while attempting to reach Malachor V, especially if gravity well generators are deployed defensively. That kinda throws a wrench in any invasion plans.

 

The first step to launching an invasion is to have a fleet that can support your invasion. G0-T0's naval assets are close to nothing, so he's going to need to address this problem before he can hope to sneak more than a shuttle or two onto Malachor V.

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There's that part where the bulk of G0-T0's forces will be destroyed by Traya's fleet while attempting to reach Malachor V, especially if gravity well generators are deployed defensively. That kinda throws a wrench in any invasion plans.

 

The first step to launching an invasion is to have a fleet that can support your invasion. G0-T0's naval assets are close to nothing, so he's going to need to address this problem before he can hope to sneak more than a shuttle or two onto Malachor V.

 

A fleet cannot orbit Malachor. It's gravity is too strong, and they would be pulled out of orbit. Or something like that. Maybe it's that the storms would ruin ther engines or something. But as we can see in KotOR2, there is no fleet above Malachor.

 

Question: does Traya have the powerbases of Sion and Nilius?

 

Also, all of G0-T0s forces have ships of their own (save HKs). And if you argue that they don't, this is probably where the Zhug Brothers come in. They have plenty of ships, they're duros after all. But also, G0-T0 is centered on Nar Shaddaa. He will easily be able to buy ships. And don't forget that the Exchange is no slouch. They have ships of their own as well. For quality we can look to G0-T0s yacht and the Ebon Hawk.

 

G0-T0 is no stranger to stealth tech. Equit a few ships with generators that he undoubtably has on hand, and G0-T0 has the means and the ability to get to Malachor and past this fleet, if its there.

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This isn't the Karate Kid, no one actually uses "pressure point strikes" when you're trying to assassinate your target. It would be either a vibroblade in the back, or a blaster shot to the back of the head.

 

Not to mention, the only real pressure points on a humanoid are the eyes and jugular notch. Can't stand that hippie nonsense when it comes to "pressure point strikes" and Vulcan death grips or what have you.

Well lets first consider what weapon the Sith assassins use, double-bladed force pikes. Not exactly a vibroblade or a blaster, however at maximum power setting it could cut through flesh and bone. Even so it still relies on wacks and thwacks to deal damage. And pressure points aside, a chitinous exoskeleton is going to good protection for those kind of attacks, although by no means immune.

 

One thing I did not mention, Trandoshans and Gand have very acute eye sight, as do HK-50 droids. Making them more able to detect incoming Sith assassins. Remember that when the Exile was attacked by assassins, she managed to see them at the last moment (game mechanic I know, but based on truth) and these guys would be able to do that to much greater effect. Lose that element of surprise and suddenly it become harder for the assassins to bring their pikes to bear.

 

And concerning Traya's 'foresight', I remember on multiple occassions Traya making comments on the coming future as if she could see it. And despite being near death, what she did on Malachor V was extremely impressive. And we also have to consider that the Trayus Core heightens her abilities. Of course this leads us to her betrayal, but then lets remember that Nihilus is a wound in the Force and therefore 'unseeable' and he could have used that ability to disguise his and Sion's intentions. Now I'm not saying she will foresee her death, but she may very well foresee and impending attack. And if G0-T0 chooses to use biologicals, she will likely sense their presence through the Force.

 

And finally concerning powerbases, Traya has the assets of Nihilus and Sion because they were under her direct command and therefore their assets were her assets. The Ravager, the Sith fleet, the assassins etc. they all belonged to her as the Executor belongs to Sidious. However this does not include things that came into their ownership post-betrayal e.g. the Tomb of Freedon Nadd, war beasts, Vaklu and his forces etc.

 

This does not apply to G0-T0 in the same way however as he never was the leader of the Exchange as Traya was leader of the Sith Triumvirate, he has no control over the assets of other Exchange bosses. He is the planetary cell leader of Nar Shaddaa, nothing more.

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A fleet cannot orbit Malachor. It's gravity is too strong, and they would be pulled out of orbit. Or something like that. Maybe it's that the storms would ruin ther engines or something. But as we can see in KotOR2, there is no fleet above Malachor.

 

Question: does Traya have the powerbases of Sion and Nilius?

 

Also, all of G0-T0s forces have ships of their own (save HKs). And if you argue that they don't, this is probably where the Zhug Brothers come in. They have plenty of ships, they're duros after all. But also, G0-T0 is centered on Nar Shaddaa. He will easily be able to buy ships. And don't forget that the Exchange is no slouch. They have ships of their own as well. For quality we can look to G0-T0s yacht and the Ebon Hawk.

 

G0-T0 is no stranger to stealth tech. Equit a few ships with generators that he undoubtably has on hand, and G0-T0 has the means and the ability to get to Malachor and past this fleet, if its there.

 

The ships available to the Exchange are not warships, and while they could be stealthed, the detection systems on the Sith warships should be more than adequate for picking them up, especially if they're forced to follow certain safe paths through the gravitational storms around Malachor V.

 

And the reason that you don't see a fleet near Malachor V when you arrive in KotOR II is because it was just destroyed at the Battle of Telos.

 

The point is, Malachor V is quite the fortress. It's unique nature makes it exceedingly difficult to approach, and the SIth superiority in space heightens that advantage by allowing them to aggressively patrol the few navigable approaches.

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Well lets first consider what weapon the Sith assassins use, double-bladed force pikes. Not exactly a vibroblade or a blaster, however at maximum power setting it could cut through flesh and bone. Even so it still relies on wacks and thwacks to deal damage. And pressure points aside, a chitinous exoskeleton is going to good protection for those kind of attacks, although by no means immune.

 

One thing I did not mention, Trandoshans and Gand have very acute eye sight, as do HK-50 droids. Making them more able to detect incoming Sith assassins. Remember that when the Exile was attacked by assassins, she managed to see them at the last moment (game mechanic I know, but based on truth) and these guys would be able to do that to much greater effect. Lose that element of surprise and suddenly it become harder for the assassins to bring their pikes to bear.

 

Force pikes are vibro-edged weapons. Their combat power settings can cut through flesh, bone, and thin durasteel with ease. I doubt the exoskeletons of the Gand will prove very resilient to these weapons, although the frames of the HK-50 droids might hold up a little better.

 

Furthermore, the Assassins are hardly the only Sith forces around. There are also the acolytes, apprentices, and Sith Lords at the Trayus Academy who will absolutely devastate any invading forces at close range.

 

Also, why would the mercenaries be "able to do that to much greater effect"? The Exile was a Jedi, with heightened senses due to the Force. Likely her perceptions were stronger than those of Trandoshans or Gand, or perhaps roughly equivalent. So the stealth skills of the Assassins would still be quite dangerous to G0-T0's forces.

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And finally concerning powerbases, Traya has the assets of Nihilus and Sion because they were under her direct command and therefore their assets were her assets. The Ravager, the Sith fleet, the assassins etc. they all belonged to her as the Executor belongs to Sidious. However this does not include things that came into their ownership post-betrayal e.g. the Tomb of Freedon Nadd, war beasts, Vaklu, etc.

 

This is not really true. The group was called the Sith Triumvirate. A triumvirate is a government co-ruled by three heads of state. Each three of these had there own powerbases, agendas, and schemes. In fact, a Kaggath could be held between the members of this triumvirate. Traya was not "in direct control". The others cooperated with her and her plans, but as seen with their betrayal, they obviously were able to resist her command. Notice that its a betrayal, not a mutiny. Therefor Traya should only have her powerbase, or the forces of Malachor V.

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Force pikes are vibro-edged weapons. Their combat power settings can cut through flesh, bone, and thin durasteel with ease. I doubt the exoskeletons of the Gand will prove very resilient to these weapons, although the frames of the HK-50 droids might hold up a little better.

 

Furthermore, the Assassins are hardly the only Sith forces around. There are also the acolytes, apprentices, and Sith Lords at the Trayus Academy who will absolutely devastate any invading forces at close range.

 

Also, why would the mercenaries be "able to do that to much greater effect"? The Exile was a Jedi, with heightened senses due to the Force. Likely her perceptions were stronger than those of Trandoshans or Gand, or perhaps roughly equivalent. So the stealth skills of the Assassins would still be quite dangerous to G0-T0's forces.

True, but Gand are small and maneuverable and therefore more able to avoid full-on blows, a glancing blow is likely to do little damage. Also, the double-bladed weapon has several exploitable weaknesses, amplified by the fact that the stun module is at the tip of the weapon.

 

 

  • It is difficult to bring to bear in close-combat conditions, and as the stun module is only at the tip and it possess and large hilt it is extremely vulnerable to the Gand 'piercing touch' - basically a high-powered punch that will easily break apart a force pike and slam into squishy assassin flesh. Trandoshans have similar capabilities, slap the pike away with those powerful arms then lift the assassin up high and crack!
     
     
  • The defensive capabilities of the weapon are rendered further useless by the fact that they are unable to deflect blaster fire as a lightsaber would be. If their opponents can make some distance, the assassins are extremely vulnerable.

 

So basically if the element of surprise fails, the assassins leave themselves vulnerable in both close-combat and long range. And the heightened sense of Gand, Trandoshans and HK-50's is likely to somewhat negate those stealth capabilities. That advantage can be removed entirely if G0-T0 gets his hands on some tech that deactivates stealth fields, like we see on multiple occasions in SWTOR e.g. on Balmorra. And as he has unlimited assess to the black market this is a high possibility.

 

However like you said, the real Sith pose a considerable threat. However if G0-T0 has his HKs he's got an edge against them, sonic screamers, flamethrowers, carbonite projectors, cluster rockets etc. will break their concentration and leave them vulnerable to attack from his other forces.

 

Lets also remember that the attack on the academy only needs to be a distraction while the droids get the MSG back online and reactivate it.

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This is not really true. The group was called the Sith Triumvirate. A triumvirate is a government co-ruled by three heads of state. Each three of these had there own powerbases, agendas, and schemes. In fact, a Kaggath could be held between the members of this triumvirate. Traya was not "in direct control". The others cooperated with her and her plans, but as seen with their betrayal, they obviously were able to resist her command. Notice that its a betrayal, not a mutiny. Therefor Traya should only have her powerbase, or the forces of Malachor V.

 

Traya was the de facto leader and master of both Sion and Nihilus, they both bent to her will, she was recognised as leader by the forces on Malachor V and the remaining Sith Lords out there, due to her being the former master of Darth Revan, this is made absolutely clear in the KotOR CG, she IS the leading Dark Lord of the Triumvirate.

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This is not really true. The group was called the Sith Triumvirate. A triumvirate is a government co-ruled by three heads of state. Each three of these had there own powerbases, agendas, and schemes. In fact, a Kaggath could be held between the members of this triumvirate. Traya was not "in direct control". The others cooperated with her and her plans, but as seen with their betrayal, they obviously were able to resist her command. Notice that its a betrayal, not a mutiny. Therefor Traya should only have her powerbase, or the forces of Malachor V.
Sion and Nihilus were her apprentices, so she was effectively leader of the triumvirate, although only to a certain extent. Nor did they really have individual powerbase, it was all one, they all used different parts of it and its almost impossible to divide it into clear chunks.

 

Yes Traya was a co-ruler, but ultimately they were all 'Heads of State' and therefore the powerbase belonged to all of them equally, if not Traya that little bit more. Although ultimately it was Traya that told them what to do, else they wouldn't have usurped her to follow their own agenda. And where does it say that Sion and Nihilus 'betrayed' her? Not that that has much bearing, 'betrayal' was something of a buzz word concerning Traya.

 

But anyway, its impossible to have a fleet in orbit around Malachor V because of its sheer gravitational pull. Granted it is not strong as when the MSG was activated but nonetheless any large ship entering its orbit will be pulled in and crash. And that's before navigating web of debris surrounding it.

 

Granted a fleet could be placed at a distance from the planet, and deploy gravitation weapons, but that's not really going to have much effect. G0-T0 fleet is heading to the planet, so they can't really be pulled out of hyperspace as the drop out at that point anyway. And even if they are the ships won't detect them because they will be stealthed.

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True, but Gand are small and maneuverable and therefore more able to avoid full-on blows, a glancing blow is likely to do little damage. Also, the double-bladed weapon has several exploitable weaknesses, amplified by the fact that the stun module is at the tip of the weapon.

  • It is difficult to bring to bear in close-combat conditions, and as the stun module is only at the tip and it possess and large hilt it is extremely vulnerable to the Gand 'piercing touch' - basically a high-powered punch that will easily break apart a force pike and slam into squishy assassin flesh. Trandoshans have similar capabilities, slap the pike away with those powerful arms then lift the assassin up high and crack!

This is an incredibly illogical statement. The Gand do not have a "piercing touch", they just have chitinous fingers which can be used as a stabbing implement. If you're suggesting that they will punch the force pikes apart, you clearly have no idea how close quarters fighting tends to work.

 

The stun module comprises the top portion of the pike, thus giving the user reach and distance. They can be further from their enemy while still murdering him to pieces with the powered end of the Force pike. As for the Trandos "slapping" the pikes away, that is equally ridiculous. Unless these assassins forget everything they know about killing, they'll be stabbing the Trandos with the pikes. You don't exactly "slap away" a high powered force pike without being shocked into a gibbering pile of spasmodic flesh.

 

  • The defensive capabilities of the weapon are rendered further useless by the fact that they are unable to deflect blaster fire as a lightsaber would be. If their opponents can make some distance, the assassins are extremely vulnerable.

In the hallways and corridors of the academy, or in the twisting passageways of Malachor's surface, the stealthed assassins would have a fairly easy time moving in close. Of course, the assassins will be moving under cover fire from Sith Troopers and Commandos, and there will be lightsaber wielding Sith protecting those troopers. So those vaunted senses of the mercenaries will not be quite so useful in the chaotic din of battle, making it quite simple for assassins to sneak in and wreak havoc among G0-T0's forces during any engagement.

However like you said, the real Sith pose a considerable threat. However if G0-T0 has his HKs he's got an edge against them, sonic screamers, flamethrowers, carbonite projectors, cluster rockets etc. will break their concentration and leave them vulnerable to attack from his other forces.

Most of those weapons, while effective in individual engagements, have the tendency to also hit your own people if you're not careful. So while they will have weapons which are useful against lightsaber wielding adversaries, there are also the conventional Sith forces to contend with, who will happily blast the HK-50 droids to pieces with assault carbines, grenades, and repeating blasters.

 

Lets also remember that the attack on the academy only needs to be a distraction while the droids get the MSG back online and reactivate it.

Assuming it hasn't been collapsed, sabotaged, or completely destroyed by Traya's forces. If she intends to remain on Malachor V, it would be a logical step to render the MSG inoperable. Or better yet, booby-trap it to detonate or destroy the people trying to activate it. Then follow up with a quick response force to finish off those who survived.

 

But anyway, its impossible to have a fleet in orbit around Malachor V because of its sheer gravitational pull. Granted it is not strong as when the MSG was activated but nonetheless any large ship entering its orbit will be pulled in and crash. And that's before navigating web of debris surrounding it.

 

Granted a fleet could be placed at a distance from the planet, and deploy gravitation weapons, but that's not really going to have much effect. G0-T0 fleet is heading to the planet, so they can't really be pulled out of hyperspace as the drop out at that point anyway. And even if they are the ships won't detect them because they will be stealthed.

Stealth technology is not infallible. In fact, it might be completely useless for this operation.

The hibridium model cloaking device's worst drawback was perhaps the "double-blind" nature of the cloaking shield, which also blocked the host ship's scanners and communication systems. Crews and passengers on cloaked ships were unable to peer beyond the cloak's shroud. Since visual navigation was impossible, any other form of navigation could only be exercised by preprogramming astrogation routes. The vessel was thus effectively isolated from the rest of the galaxy. Communications, combat operations, and sensor sweeps could only occur when the cloaking field was lowered or disabled. The cloaking device did nothing to impair senses dependent on the Force, however, and trained Force users could detect even cloaked ships in battle with ease.

~Cloaking device entry on Wookiepedia

So not only can the Sith force users easily detect the ships coming out of hyperspace, but they can deploy gravity generators and warships along the hyperspace lanes leading to Malachor, thus pulling G0-T0's ships unexpectedly out of hyperspace. They might not even have time to activate their stealth generators before being destroyed.

(For the record, this tactic is the space-variant of a basic naval operation called interdiction. It's been a staple of naval forces since the Peloponnesians plied the Mediterranean Sea in galleys.)

 

Furthermore, how would G0-T0's mercenaries navigate their way to Malachor while cloaked? There are no programmed routes, and only an exceptionally skilled pilot or droid could manually fly down to the surface. That sure isn't happening while they're stealthed.

Edited by Ventessel
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Concerning attacking the Trayus Academy, firstly the battle by no means has to occur inside the Academy. The best tactic will to be set up a 'blockade' in the large open space before the entrance. And then cause some ruckus to draw them out. This gives them an advantage as any Sith venturing out of the Academy will have to do so through a single small entrance, and will walk straight into awaiting blaster fire. This also gives the attackers the advantage of range, putting the Sith at a disadvantage. It will also give the inhabitants the false illusion they are attempting to lay siege to the Academy and preventing anyone from reinforcing the MSG. And lets remember if G0-T0 gets hold of some anti-stealth tech then the stealth generators will become useless, so they cannot sneak behind enemy lines.

 

So instantly the Sith lose the advantage of close-quarters combat, in order to bring their weapons to bear they have to get up close. Sure they have Sith Commandos with blasters and grenades. But they'll be going up against mercenaries, assassins and droids with the best tech G0-T0 can outfit them with. We're talking:

 

 

  • Stealth generators so they can get in close and avoid detection en route to the academy.
  • Disruptor rifles that pack enough punch to disintegrate their enemy with one shot.
  • Rocket and grenade launchers that will deal heavy and indiscriminate damage to Sith and troopers alike.
  • Particle beam blasters which launch particle projectiles which explode on contact, making them impossible to deflect via lightsabers.
  • Sonic weapons which generate highly-focused bursts of sonic energy which pass through lightsabers and rupture internal organs, and lower settings (sonic screamers) could cause disorientation and loss of consciousness.
  • Concussion rifles often favoured by Trandoshans that fire compressed capsules of ionized air that send powerful shock waves on contact, sending opponents flying through the air and bypassing lightsabers.
  • Bolt casters which spew electrical energy at the opponent and can hit multiple opponents, and once again bypass lightsabers.
  • Flamethrowers and carbonite projectors, if the enemy tries to get in close and hasn't yet been gunned down these will finish them off.

 

Now as you mentioned a lot of these weapons are indiscriminate, but given that the attackers will not be fighting in the academy but outside it with their enemies infront and allies behind, it won't be a problem. All the indisciminate chaos will be targeted at them. What's more the HK units, equipped with stealth generators, can plant some mines in front of the academy before they engage, effectively turning it into a death trap.

 

But if the Sith forces to manage to get in close (which is highly unlikely), the attackers are still capable. I did not make up the term 'piercing touch', its part of Gand martial arts:

 

The Gand findsmen utilized a style of martial arts, of which the tenets were not readily understood by the galactic community. A few of the moves were translated and described, however; Piercing Touch and Striking Mist. The former, Piercing Touch, was described as a powerful punch that was able to penetrate bone, chitin, and various armors. This move was demonstrated by Ooryl Qrygg when he punched a hole through stormtrooper armor while stationed on Talasea. The other move, Striking Mist, allowed the attacking Gand to sneak in close to their opponent, so that the hits could not be parried or dodged. ~ Wookieepedia, Gand martial arts AKA close quarters fighting.

 

Now I'm no expert, but if a Gand manages to get up close to an assassin, and uses piercing touch, there is nothing that assassin can do to stop him. At close range he cannot bring the tip of his pike to bear, if he raises his pike in defense the Gand will punch through it (hence it will break) and slam into his chest. Dead assassin.

 

As for Trandoshans, let's remember that the stun module is at the tip of the pike, so a Trandoshan with wall stature and long arms can dodge the initial jab and then respond with a thwack to the unelectrified part of the pike, or simply grab it and wrench it away. Both leave the assassin open to attack.

 

What does pose a problem though however, is the MSG, has you said it could have been rendered inoperable. However the MSG is likely buried into the planet's crust as it managed to survive the destruction of the planet despite being at the center of the chaos, so destroying it completely will be very difficult. However the caves could be collapsed, and yet it may not be in Traya's best intentions to do this as the MSG provides her with a means of destroying G0-T0.

 

Another problem is getting to Malachor V in the first place. However the point you make about stealth generators would only be valid if this battle was occurring in a different era where supply of stygium crystals were rare, and other less crystals such as hibridium would be used as substitutes. However in this era stygium has not yet become rare and therefore is likely to be used as stealth tech. Negating the disadvantages of 'double-blind'. Lets also remember that not all Sith had the ability of 'Force sight' and likely only Traya would be able to see through cloaking devices. Evident through the fact that Meetra could not see the cloaked assassins, the Jedi could not see the Emperor's cloaked space fortress, neither could they see Maul cloaked Scimitar despite it flying right over the Jedi Temple and Anakin almost walked into a stealth ship during the Battle of Christophsis.

 

And luckily G0-T0 has lots of droid pilots able to navigate Malachor's storms, either that or jettison transport pods disguised as falling debris. However you make a good point about interdiction, that is after all how Traya defeated Exar Kun in the last battle and could definitely be applied here. But lets say G0-T0's little stealthed fleet is pulled out of hyperspace en route to Malachor V. For one they will remain stealthed so Traya will have no means of knowing whether they have been pulled or not, and from that point they can simply skirt around the ships in realspace until they exit the interdiction field and then jump to hyperspace again. Simples. *eek* :D

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Concerning attacking the Trayus Academy, firstly the battle by no means has to occur inside the Academy. The best tactic will to be set up a 'blockade' in the large open space before the entrance. And then cause some ruckus to draw them out. This gives them an advantage as any Sith venturing out of the Academy will have to do so through a single small entrance, and will walk straight into awaiting blaster fire. This also gives the attackers the advantage of range, putting the Sith at a disadvantage. It will also give the inhabitants the false illusion they are attempting to lay siege to the Academy and preventing anyone from reinforcing the MSG. And lets remember if G0-T0 gets hold of some anti-stealth tech then the stealth generators will become useless, so they cannot sneak behind enemy lines.

 

So instantly the Sith lose the advantage of close-quarters combat, in order to bring their weapons to bear they have to get up close. Sure they have Sith Commandos with blasters and grenades. But they'll be going up against mercenaries, assassins and droids with the best tech G0-T0 can outfit them with.

That's an awfully specific set of circumstances. I'm sure that the Sith forces will cooperate and play right into this blatant ambush. Just as they wouldn't post any sentries to detect hostile forces approaching the Academy, or have a QRF standing by near the MSG where it would actually be needed.

 

If we're going to operate under the assumption that Traya's forces are not only tactically inept, but also lethally stupid, then this Kaggath is a wrap for G0-T0.

Now I'm no expert, but if a Gand manages to get up close to an assassin, and uses piercing touch, there is nothing that assassin can do to stop him. At close range he cannot bring the tip of his pike to bear, if he raises his pike in defense the Gand will punch through it (hence it will break) and slam into his chest. Dead assassin.

I'm not denying the attack's existence, merely that you can't reasonably expect it to be used to strike the assassin's weapon every time. It's a fairly narrow set of circumstances you've established there, almost like something you'd see in a cheesy Western, shooting guns out of people's hands or something.

 

Any trained killer, if he gets close to you, will kill you. There is nothing anyone can do about that. If the assassin gets in a strike first, the Gand dies. If the Gand gets in a strike, the assassin dies. Now, a force pike seems similar to a weapon with which I am intimately familiar, the bayonet. It's a weapon with reach, but a narrow killing surface on the end. You primarily thrust, and if they evade your first cut, step diagonally and follow up with shallow cuts. If the Gand is in a position to punch the handle of the pike, it means he's already gotten past the assassin's weapon and the assassin would be dead regardless of the Gand's particular weapons.

As for Trandoshans, let's remember that the stun module is at the tip of the pike, so a Trandoshan with wall stature and long arms can dodge the initial jab and then respond with a thwack to the unelectrified part of the pike, or simply grab it and wrench it away. Both leave the assassin open to attack.

Again, we're down to debating the minutae of hand to hand combat. Naturally, a large Trandoshan will be capable in this respect, but remember that Sith Assassins are no slouches when it comes to melee combat. Not to mention that they will be quite familiar with the handling of their chosen weapons.

 

What does pose a problem though however, is the MSG, has you said it could have been rendered inoperable. However the MSG is likely buried into the planet's crust as it managed to survive the destruction of the planet despite being at the center of the chaos, so destroying it completely will be very difficult. However the caves could be collapsed, and yet it may not be in Traya's best intentions to do this as the MSG provides her with a means of destroying G0-T0.

Preserving the MSG in the hopes that it will provide a way to kill G0-T0 is akin to wearing a suicide vest and giving the detonator to a random passerby. If Traya is going to move the MSG to Nar Shadaa and destroy G0-T0, then it won't be on Malachor for him to detonate. If she's not going to use it to lay waste to G0-T0's stronghold, then she'll have disabled it and booby-trapped it from one end of the system to the other.

 

Another problem is getting to Malachor V in the first place. However the point you make about stealth generators would only be valid if this battle was occurring in a different era where supply of stygium crystals were rare, and other less crystals such as hibridium would be used as substitutes. However in this era stygium has not yet become rare and therefore is likely to be used as stealth tech. Negating the disadvantages of 'double-blind'. Lets also remember that not all Sith had the ability of 'Force sight' and likely only Traya would be able to see through cloaking devices. Evident through the fact that Meetra could not see the cloaked assassins, the Jedi could not see the Emperor's cloaked space fortress, neither could they see Maul cloaked Scimitar despite it flying right over the Jedi Temple and Anakin almost walked into a stealth ship during the Battle of Christophsis.

 

Actually, any well trained Force sensitive would be able to detect the sudden arrival or another presence in the Force when the fleet is pulled out of hyperspace. And cloaking devices cannot mask the magnetic signature of the ships, allowing missiles to home in on them (as seen in the battle of Chrystophsis) so the Sith fleet would also be able to target the ships once they left hyperspace.

 

Maul was probably actively disguising his presence in the Force, something the mercenaries would not be trained to do. The same goes for Meetra not being able to detect the assassins. Since they were trained in Force camouflage and equipped with stealth generators, they would be able to evade both forms of detection until the last moment.

 

And luckily G0-T0 has lots of droid pilots able to navigate Malachor's storms, either that or jettison transport pods disguised as falling debris. However you make a good point about interdiction, that is after all how Traya defeated Exar Kun in the last battle and could definitely be applied here. But lets say G0-T0's little stealthed fleet is pulled out of hyperspace en route to Malachor V. For one they will remain stealthed so Traya will have no means of knowing whether they have been pulled or not, and from that point they can simply skirt around the ships in realspace until they exit the interdiction field and then jump to hyperspace again. Simples. *eek* :D

Unless the task force consists exclusively of droids, their presence in the Force will be detected, and they will be destroyed with magnetic seeking torpedoes.

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That's an awfully specific set of circumstances. I'm sure that the Sith forces will cooperate and play right into this blatant ambush. Just as they wouldn't post any sentries to detect hostile forces approaching the Academy, or have a QRF standing by near the MSG where it would actually be needed.

 

If we're going to operate under the assumption that Traya's forces are not only tactically inept, but also lethally stupid, then this Kaggath is a wrap for G0-T0.

You make a good point, and this demands a tactical reassessment. Given these variables and others, G0-T0 will likely dispatch a large group (say 30-50) of HK-50 assassin droids equipped with stealth generators and advanced weaponry on stealthed vessels. If Traya employs interdiction tactics the droids will be pulled out of hyperspace, but remain undetected (lets be clear, even if there were biologicals on-board the Sith would be powerless to stop them - in order to track a magnetic signature the vessel has to decloak) and then skirt around and jump to hyperspace again.

 

Once they arrive above Malachor, send down probes to scout out the Academy and the MSG, then deploy transport pods disguised as debris to the scouted location. About the MSG, after doing some more research on it it would seem that destroying/disabling it would be all but impossible. The MSG itself must be buried deep within the planets crust because the Remote never actually interacts with it directly. It merely powers up some engine cores from broken vessels to power the MSG and reactivate it. So really there is no way of getting to it, or disabling it, let alone moving it. However this also means Traya has no means of sabotaging it, and will likely not know how important the crashed vessels are to reactivating it, its very unlikely she will attempt to close them off. That also gives the assassins nothing to guard...

 

So the HKs will split up into two groups, one group will go with some slicer droids to power up the ship cores and prime the MSG, and the remainder will go and cause a distraction at the Trayus Academy. Granted the Sith aren't going to walk into an obvious trap, and even if they do cause some ruckus, will have no reason to come out. Even so with stealth tech and advanced weaponary the droids will do some considerable damage inside. Lets remember that it didn't completely consist of narrow hallways and corridors, there were large open space too, where an offensive could be staged.

 

And for the record, sentries are highly unlikely even against a non-stealthed force. Malachor V is extremely hazardous to invaders and its inhabitants, if Sith attempt to venture out and set up ambushes, they are more likely to succumb to poisonous gases or be mauled by Storm beasts before G0-T0's forces arrive.

 

However there is the possibility that the plan could go wrong, Traya might have a vision of the future. Or she might simply get 'nervous' when she foresees or simply sees an army of HK-50s attacking the planet, knowing that there is a dangerous superweapon nearby, that they would likely attempt to reactivate. So there is a high probality she might attempt an escape and flee to Korriban. Now alot of people have put forward argument for G0-T0 finding Traya on Korriban, but killing her is a whole different story. Without the MSG they'll have to do this 'manually'.

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You make a good point, and this demands a tactical reassessment. Given these variables and others, G0-T0 will likely dispatch a large group (say 30-50) of HK-50 assassin droids equipped with stealth generators and advanced weaponry on stealthed vessels. If Traya employs interdiction tactics the droids will be pulled out of hyperspace, but remain undetected (lets be clear, even if there were biologicals on-board the Sith would be powerless to stop them - in order to track a magnetic signature the vessel has to decloak) and then skirt around and jump to hyperspace again.

 

Another drawback common to both [hybridium and stygium cloaking devices] was that a cloaked ship could be tracked was by the ship's magnetic signature. This tactic, used mostly by Separatist commander Admiral Trench, allowed tracking torpedoes to be fired and follow the ship even if it was cloaked.

~Wookiepedia, "Cloaking Device"

I would imagine that in an era where stygium crystals are readily available, warships would stock magnetic tracking ordnance for just such an occasion. The only tricky part is figuring out when they're needed, so if biologicals are felt through the Force, the Sith fire the missiles along the hyperspace route at the edge of the gravity well and let the seekers do their work.

 

Once they arrive above Malachor, send down probes to scout out the Academy and the MSG, then deploy transport pods disguised as debris to the scouted location. About the MSG, after doing some more research on it it would seem that destroying/disabling it would be all but impossible. The MSG itself must be buried deep within the planets crust because the Remote never actually interacts with it directly. It merely powers up some engine cores from broken vessels to power the MSG and reactivate it. So really there is no way of getting to it, or disabling it, let alone moving it. However this also means Traya has no means of sabotaging it, and will likely not know how important the crashed vessels are to reactivating it, its very unlikely she will attempt to close them off. That also gives the assassins nothing to guard...

 

Now here's where things are starting to get a little speculative. No one actually knows what the MSG is or looks like. Only Bao-Dur, the weapon's progenitor, really understood how it worked. His remote, operating on his programming and specific instructions, was able to prime the MSG and power it by rigging ship's drive cores. Since Bao-Dur is not available for this Kaggath, G0-T0 has no reliable way of figuring out how to reactivate the MSG.

 

If it is buried underground, the droids won't be able to access it to figure out how to reactivate it. If it is accessible for study and manipulation, then Traya will have had it destroyed or removed. So the MSG scenario does not seem feasible given the circumstances. It's not like G0-T0 can look up the schematics on the MSG, it was a one of a kind weapon designed by a genius Zabrak military engineer. He didn't exactly leave an instruction manual.

 

So the HKs will split up into two groups, one group will go with some slicer droids to power up the ship cores and prime the MSG, and the remainder will go and cause a distraction at the Trayus Academy. Granted the Sith aren't going to walk into an obvious trap, and even if they do cause some ruckus, will have no reason to come out. Even so with stealth tech and advanced weaponary the droids will do some considerable damage inside. Lets remember that it didn't completely consist of narrow hallways and corridors, there were large open space too, where an offensive could be staged.

 

Sure, once the fighting gets inside the Academy there are a variety of spaces. However, a good defensive layout would capitalize on the narrow bridge leading into the Academy and set up efficient kill zones in every room. There is the possibility of infiltration, but that is true for both sides. The HK-50 droids will be patrolling for stealthed Assassins, just as the Assassins will be patrolling the Academy for stealthed intruders. There is a roughly equal detection chance, so stealth attacks will not be a deciding factor in one direction or another.

 

But as you mentioned, there's no need for the Sith to try to fight their way out. Far simpler to bleed the attacking forces out and let Malachor slowly kill them off. They could not lay siege for long, since attrition rates would likely be high if they tried to wait outside the Academy. And getting off the planet would be almost impossible, when the invaders attempt to leave, stealthed assassins could follow them and signal the position of their landing craft to the Sith Fleet, which could intercept them and fire tracking torpedoes at their ships as they left Malachor. Or just do what the HK-50s did on Telos and fire a shoulder launched rocket at each ship, damaging them enough that they crash into Malachor and are destroyed.

 

And for the record, sentries are highly unlikely even against a non-stealthed force. Malachor V is extremely hazardous to invaders and its inhabitants, if Sith attempt to venture out and set up ambushes, they are more likely to succumb to poisonous gases or be mauled by Storm beasts before G0-T0's forces arrive.

 

In ordinary circumstances, it wouldn't be worthwhile to send out sentries. However, under imminent threat of attack, it is utterly foolish not to send out regular patrols (in force to deal with the Storm beasts) in order to spot approaching hostiles. And I'm sure the people living in the Academy on Malachor would know enough to either wear Sith Armor with rebreather systems, or to bring along an air filtration mask for the patrol.

 

If Malachor is so prohibitively dangerous that its impossible to patrol at all (some casualties are acceptable, these are the Sith after all) then it is equally likely that the invaders will be killed off as it is for the Sith forces. An attack on the Trayus Academy becomes increasingly unlikely to succeed in that case.

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I would imagine that in an era where stygium crystals are readily available, warships would stock magnetic tracking ordnance for just such an occasion. The only tricky part is figuring out when they're needed, so if biologicals are felt through the Force, the Sith fire the missiles along the hyperspace route at the edge of the gravity well and let the seekers do their work.
Well here's what I'm disputing. The Christophsis episode made it seem as if in order to track a ships magnetic signature, the ship must be decloaked. The plus side being that once you've tracked it the ship can't escape by recloaking. I expect the reason behind this is that the ship itself needs something it can detect in order to start tracking, you can't just do a wide scan over some random area and hope you get lucky. The ship needs a target to lock on to.

 

But concerning the MSG, you make a good point. Without Bao-Dur the MSG is practically useless... so I'm going to have to introduce a minor rule change to prevent this factor I introduced from becoming completely nullified. Based on the principal of "well in a real Kaggath", Bao-Dur would be helping with the Restoration Project on Telos IV so its likely that if G0-T0 wanted to reactivate the device he would hunt down Bao-Dur and force him to help. Bao-Dur wouldn't need much persuading however as he seems to be very much against the Sith. This is in minor conflict with the rule: No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era. But then again Bao-Dur is not an ally, asset or prominent power. I hope you'll accept this minor rule change. (Disturbing thought: if Traya suspects such a plan she might have him 'disappear' :jawa_evil:)

 

But back to the battle, let's not forget what we're dealing with here. A small army of stealthed HK-50 assassin droids armed with advanced weaponry and most importantly anti-stealth technology. What this means primarily is that the Academy won't see the attack coming, nor will any sentries (if there any) and for that matter, nor will any storm beasts. So the droids and effectively move silently and safely towards the academy without encountering a single threat.

 

Granted they'll definitively be stealthed assassins surrounding the entrance, who will likely pick up on oscillations, but that doesn't really matter. The stealth tech is only needed to get them to the Academy, once there at the entrance, they'll decloak, activate the anti-stealth tech and start firing. Let's also remember that force pikes won't have an electifiying effect on droids, although they will do damage. And anti-stealth tech will catch them off guard, leaving them open to vaporisation. Then they just move into the academy rinse and repeat, or alternatively recloak and see if any forces come out to investigate and keep doing that until they get wise and stop coming. Also, can we be more specific concerning these 'kill zones'? Because I'm sure they're are many ways to get around them. Nothing short of blowing up the bridge is going to stop those droids, which would work in G0-T0's favour anyway.

 

Let's also remember that droids don't wear down. Attrition rates will be extremely low because they only way to stop them is to blast them to pieces, these droids won't retreat, they won't surrender. They'll keep blasting organics until the planet blows up. There is no need to get off the planet, if the attack fails, G0-T0 can just make more.

 

Let's also remember all that the HKs have to do is keep the academy busy, and stop any assassins from attempting to prevent the MSG's reactivation. So success rates aren't really that important, these guys aren't looking to win - just give Traya a false illusion.

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The magnetic tracking missiles lock onto a signature that isn't masked by the cloaking device, allowing them to home in on the target regardless of whether the device is activated or not. The only problem is that unless you have a place to fire the weapon initially, it won't know what signature to lock onto. This problem can be worked around in two ways:

 

1. Sith with particular skill in Force Sight, or sensitivity to such disturbances in the Force, in the CIC can alert the missile batteries when the gravity well pulls the incoming ships back into realspace. They only need a direction and range to lock the missiles on target, and since the radius of the gravity well is a known constant, the Sith only need to provide the direction of the ship they sensed. Death by science.

 

2. I'm pretty sure that stealth fields can't be engaged when making the jump/transition to or from hyperspace. They're a serious drain on the ship's power plant, and running them continuously during a hyperspace jump (even if it were possible, which is not known for certain) would probably burn out the systems, or put undo strain which could damage them.

 

So, if pulled unexpectedly from hyperspace by the gravity well there would be a delay while the stealth fields were engaged. This would provide an additional window where the Sith warships could get additional targeting information before the cloaking devices kicked in, further enhancing the missile's lock on their magnetic signatures.

 

As Darth Vader would put it "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability [...] is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

 

 

But back to the battle, let's not forget what we're dealing with here. A small army of stealthed HK-50 assassin droids armed with advanced weaponry and most importantly anti-stealth technology. What this means primarily is that the Academy won't see the attack coming, nor will any sentries (if there any) and for that matter, nor will any storm beasts. So the droids and effectively move silently and safely towards the academy without encountering a single threat.

Yes, back to the battle. While stealth technology will enable the droids to evade any roving patrols on their way to the Academy, and likely sneak around Storm Beasts, this doesn't eliminate the threat posed by the storms, etc. which may still enact a toll on the droids from collapsing rocks, shifting ground, gravitic tremors, and the other natural hazards of Malachor V.

 

So, they get close to the Academy, possibly even up to the bridge itself, without detection by the Sith. This will give them tactical surprise, but not strategic surprise. What I mean by this is that the Academy will be on standby to defend against an invasion, but they won't know quite when it's coming.

 

So they'll be able to ambush the guards near the entrance, and perhaps force their way across the bridge. However, even if they reactivate their stealth fields, the Academy's defenders will know they're coming (blaster fire and explosions at the entrance aren't very ambiguous. Once the shooting starts, the Sith will man their posts). So, they try sneaking into the Academy to achieve tactical surprise again, but this is where their precious stealth fields will fail them.

 

The simplest techniques are often the most effective. Advanced technology can often be defeated through straightforward methods. For example, to counter enemies known to be using stealth fields, simply scatter fine powder on the floor at key chokepoints leading into the Academy and watch for footprints, then light 'em up.

 

This leads me to the concept of "kill zones". When you set up a defensive position, you look to create overlapping fields of fire with your emplaced weapons (turrets and repeating blasters) and to allow mutual support between your firing positions. Then you walk the enemy into a position where you can simultaneously engage them from two or more angles, creating a crossfire. Such positions are generally called "kill zones", for obvious reasons.

 

Let's also remember that droids don't wear down. Attrition rates will be extremely low because they only way to stop them is to blast them to pieces, these droids won't retreat, they won't surrender. They'll keep blasting organics until the planet blows up. There is no need to get off the planet, if the attack fails, G0-T0 can just make more.

 

Droids do, in fact, wear down. Like any machine, they require routine maintenance to remain in peak functioning condition. However, by attrition, I was referring to losses incurred en route to the Academy. These losses could be from any number of environmental hazards, and remaining outside and exposed to the harsh conditions of Malachor would not be a viable position, even for droids.

 

And droids, especially extremely advanced models like an HK-50, are very expensive. All that durasteel, the advanced weapons they're armed with, the electronic components, sensors, and processors which are used in their construction, all these things require money. Lots of it. So while G0-T0 can produce the HK-50's at his factory, they aren't free. In fact, they represent a significant investment.

 

As for the Mass Shadow Generator, there is a very real chance that Bao-Dur will be assassinated by Traya's Sith before he can determine how to reactivate the MSG and brief G0-T0's forces on it. This is also assuming that he will be willing to cooperate with G0-T0, which might take some time and persuasion.

 

Bao-Dur is a suspicious and introverted individual, he prefers to take matters into his own hands and has some trust issues when it comes to large organizations (Militaries and corporations in particular). He despises criminals almost as much as he hates the Mandalorians, so G0-T0 would need to be very careful in approaching Bao-Dur. Kidnapped him isn't off the table, but it would make him unlikely to cooperate with G0-T0, and he's not the type to be broken by torture or threats. He has no family or friends to blackmail him with, and is more than capable of breaking out of most restraining facilities.

 

Again, I also need to emphasize that there is no evidence the MSG is buried in Malachor's surface. The fact of the matter is that we don't know what it really is or looks like. So it's equally plausible that Traya could relocate or destroy it, depending on her preference.

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As for the Mass Shadow Generator, there is a very real chance that Bao-Dur will be assassinated by Traya's Sith before he can determine how to reactivate the MSG and brief G0-T0's forces on it. This is also assuming that he will be willing to cooperate with G0-T0, which might take some time and persuasion.

 

Bao-Dur is a suspicious and introverted individual, he prefers to take matters into his own hands and has some trust issues when it comes to large organizations (Militaries and corporations in particular). He despises criminals almost as much as he hates the Mandalorians, so G0-T0 would need to be very careful in approaching Bao-Dur. Kidnapped him isn't off the table, but it would make him unlikely to cooperate with G0-T0, and he's not the type to be broken by torture or threats. He has no family or friends to blackmail him with, and is more than capable of breaking out of most restraining facilities.

 

Bao-dur and G0-T0 both worked on the Telos Restoration Project. G0-T0 knows that Bao-dur works on Telos. How is Traya gonna know that, or the fact that Bao-dur even exists/ is still alive? G0-T0 won't have a problem locating Bao-dur, far before Traya does. He has Exchange contacts on Telos.

 

And honestly, it wouldn't be that hard to convince Bao-dur it's a good idea to pull the trigger on Malachor again. He had no reservations about it in KoTOR II (excluding the Exile). In fact, it seems he really wanted to destroy his mistake, erase the memory of all those deaths he had caused. Besides, G0-T0 just has to pull the "I'm aiding the Republic" card, and boom, Bao-dur is on board. He hates Sith, he'd be more than happy to see Traya dead.

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The magnetic tracking missiles lock onto a signature that isn't masked by the cloaking device, allowing them to home in on the target regardless of whether the device is activated or not. The only problem is that unless you have a place to fire the weapon initially, it won't know what signature to lock onto. This problem can be worked around in two ways:

 

1. Sith with particular skill in Force Sight, or sensitivity to such disturbances in the Force, in the CIC can alert the missile batteries when the gravity well pulls the incoming ships back into realspace. They only need a direction and range to lock the missiles on target, and since the radius of the gravity well is a known constant, the Sith only need to provide the direction of the ship they sensed. Death by science.

 

2. I'm pretty sure that stealth fields can't be engaged when making the jump/transition to or from hyperspace. They're a serious drain on the ship's power plant, and running them continuously during a hyperspace jump (even if it were possible, which is not known for certain) would probably burn out the systems, or put undo strain which could damage them.

 

So, if pulled unexpectedly from hyperspace by the gravity well there would be a delay while the stealth fields were engaged. This would provide an additional window where the Sith warships could get additional targeting information before the cloaking devices kicked in, further enhancing the missile's lock on their magnetic signatures.

Option 1 is unlikely, these Sith displayed no skills in Force sight so we cannot make the assumption they have the ability. Granted they may sense a disturbance in the Force, but such a feeling is vague and unspefic, and will only 'work' if biologicals are involved.

 

Option 2 is far more likely, your right, hyperdrives take up large amounts of power and as seen in TCW episode stealth fields often have to be deactivated so other systems can operate. Likely G0-T0 would have them cloak moments before exiting hyperspace but as they will be caught off guard in this instance this is not possible.

 

However were talking about multiple vessels here, several small vessels is likely to minimize potential losses in such situations as these. I highly doubt they'll be able to track the magnetic signature of all of them in such a small space of time and without warning, perhaps a few or maybe only one. Several if not most will escape. Yet this does remove an element of surprise as they can alert the Academy of impending attack.

 

But concerning the planet itself, when Meetra approached the Academy she did not experience tremors, cave ins etc. granted we have to consider game mechanics etc. and their is substantial evidence to suggest Malachor is unstable. But these seismic events aren't likely going to be occurring all the time, and if they do they are avoidable. Some may be lost but there's plenty more to spare. On the topic of droids, yes they do were down/require maintenance etc. but assassin droids of such elite caliber are likely to be far more sturdy and durable than an average battle droid and likely have in-built repair systems/repair drones - or can be outfitted with some. And let's remember that for G0-T0, money is no object, as I'm sure Warren Stride will tell you. He has a HK Manufacturing Planet pumping out dozens of HK-50s across the galaxy. In this image alone we can see hundreds of units.

 

I also doubt the droids are going to attempt to stealth their way into the academy, draw some out first, kill them, then charge the place. As you say they'll likely have automated defenses filling that large entrance hall, but then we've got pillars that can be used as cover, and turrets are no match for a Hunter Killer droid. The assassins are likely also going to employ stealth tactics, and then will be caught of guard by anti-stealth tech. This gives the droids a significant advantage as they cannot so easily get up close and are suddenly completely vulnerable to disruptors, particle beam blasters, sonic weapons, concussion rifles, bolt casters etc. the same applies for the Sith who will soon pore into that room and be gunned down. They are completely defenseless against the HKs firepower.

 

And finally Bao-Dur, I think there are ways he could be persuaded. Firstly the opportunity to destroy the Sith and Malachor V would be an opportunity Bao-Dur would be interested in. But there are other things G0-T0 can offer him too, he could agree to withdraw the Exchange presence on Telos IV, or offer to aid him in driving off Czerka which he could not do alone. Also he could offer to give credits and supplies to the restoration project and the Republic's rebuilding efforts on the whole. However there is also the possibility that Traya could have him assassinated, or perhaps make him into his pawn, and have him sabotage G0-T0's efforts or perhaps even destroy him. Also there is the possibility Traya could escape, both routes need to be considered.

 

P.S. Concerning the MSG, no there is not any evidence that it is buried in Malachor's surface. But neither is their evidence it is not, nor does the Remote come across or interact with any consoles pertaining to it. We also have to consider that we have no reason to believe Traya has extensive knowledge of the MSG either, certainly not knowledge of its location, or have to move or destroy it. It obviously must be partially underground, else it would be visible from the surface, which it is not. But anyway, to avoid the realm of speculation let's just say to interact with the MSG you need Bao-Dur. Neither G0-T0 nor Traya are well versed in this kind of technology.

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I don't mean to terse with you, Beni, but you're being a bit of a stubborn idiot when it comes to the HK assault team. Yes, their anti-stealth technology will surprise the Assassins... if the assassins confront the HKs alone, and the HKs are able to deploy the technology. But this assumes the HKs will not already be in the chaos of battle, etc. And honestly, the assassins are really more of a deterrent against organic targets.

 

Now, as for the scenario it seems you're envisioning. When I say "turret" I don't mean an automated blaster on a swivel mount. I mean a mounted assault cannon in a fixed position, sighted on the established kill zone, manned by a veteran Sith trooper. The Sith will not "pour into the room" to be massacred by the HKs. Quite the opposite. They'll be waiting and dug in, and will tear the droids to pieces. HKs are unshielded, and ion weapons would be standard issue for many Sith troopers, especially since its known that their enemy is a droid who employs other droids.

 

You've conveniently ignored any of the numerous strategies that could be used by Traya's forces to undermine the precious technological marvels that G0-T0 will purchase. The Sith troops under her command include numerous veterans of the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil War, people like Atton Rand and Azkul, who are ruthless and superbly trained. They have good armor, personal energy shields, and powerful weapons, as well as the advantages of defending a prepared position at numerous chokepoints. They will be supported by stealthed assassins and Sith Lords, who can use numerous Force powers to augment the firepower they already bring to bear, and if the fighting gets into close quarters they'll have the edge over the HKs because most if not all Sith Troopers are trained and equipped with vibroswords and other melee weapons.

 

As for the ships getting yanked out of hyperspace, I doubt they'll get off with only losing one or two craft. The Sith will bombard them with missiles, since they only have to worry about firing one volley before they lose their targeting information. Once locked, the missiles can't be shaken with the stealth fields, and the sheer volume of warheads will likely overwhelm whatever countermeasures G0-T0 happens to have equipped them with (which will be nothing out of the ordinary since he expects this to be a stealth mission and most of the space will go to fuel/ammo/HKs)

 

And even in the best of circumstances, I don't think you can activate your cloaking device before coming out of hyperspace. Those two systems, individually, seem to draw down the buik of a vessel's energy output. (especially a small craft which is probably already pushing the limits of its power plant by having a cloaking device).

 

As for the HK production plant, we're putting an awful lot of stock into a few background images that originated as cut content from a game. So it's a very loose interpretation of canon to even consider the factory in the first place. If it was cranking out hundreds of droids, G0-T0 wouldn't have had to send them at the Exile in small groups. The same goes for assuming that the MSG is inaccessible simply because you don't see a console for it in the rushed, choppy ending of KotOR II. I would say, if the device can be reactivated, it must be accessible. Now, you would certainly need the engineer who designed it if you wanted to carefully recalibrate and fire the weapon again, but if you want to destroy it? Just send some demolitions teams.

 

And if its very hard to find.... well how will Bao-Dur know where it is? It's not like he's visited the planet since it was crushed and reconfigured. To be honest, I'm not really sure why we're allowing the MSG, since it's become nothing more than an irritation at this point, and there's almost no concrete information on what it is and how it works. Will it work if moved to another planet? Maybe, but Malachor had some special gravitational thing going on that made it possible, so I guess it's only usable there. Is it buried underground? Not sure about that either. Well, could someone destroy it since it's basically a time bomb right next to their headquarters? Oh gosh, maybe it's super hard to reach, and so they can't sabotage it.

 

If the MSG cannot be deactivated, then it only makes sense, strategically, for Traya's forces to lay a series of elaborate traps around it and have a Quick Reaction Force standing by to swoop in and pummel the force sent to mess around with it. Then prepare the Academy's defenses and slaughter whoever attacks the Academy, while having shuttles prepared to evacuate and regroup with the fleet before heading off to somewhere else (NOT Korriban, it's so obvious it hurts) if it looks like G0-T0's troops might be able to activate the MSG after all.

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I don't mean to terse with you, Beni, but you're being a bit of a stubborn idiot when it comes to the HK assault team. Yes, their anti-stealth technology will surprise the Assassins... if the assassins confront the HKs alone, and the HKs are able to deploy the technology. But this assumes the HKs will not already be in the chaos of battle, etc. And honestly, the assassins are really more of a deterrent against organic targets.
You know I'm just being devil's advocate with you here. If I wasn't Arbiter I'd be throwing everything I've got behind Traya, I'm just raising points on both sides to make sure the result is fair and everything is considered. And to avoid having a debate with myself, of course I'm going to refrain from raising points for the opposing side. I trust you to flag me up on those. That's the nature of debating.

 

However you make a good point again about they hyperspace scenario, but based on the fact that the Sith will respond with lightning efficiency. Before they know what's going on those vessels will begin decloaking, and start fleeing as quickly as they can. Granted they'll get a lock on several, perhaps even all, of their signatures. But G0-T0's ships are simply faster. And the Sith won't be able to effectively coordinate an attack via fighters based on magnetic signatures.

 

But anyway, concerning these 'mounted assault cannons' - your basing this on the assumption that Traya's forces have this at their disposal. And it is highly likely that they do not, not only have I never come across manned turrets in KOTOR I or 2 but in the Battle of Telos IV the Sith invasion force deploys automated turrets across Citadel Station, it is said as much during the conflict. So this is likely what will be deployed. HKs are unshielded? Possibly but G0-T0 could upgrade them with standard personal energy shields, if they don't have these already which they likely will. But yes, ion weapons would be effective. But just as effective as the advanced weaponry of G0-T0's forces will be against the Sith and the assassins.

 

Let's also not overestimate the capabilities of these commandos, for in the end they are footsoldiers. While the HKs are the best Hunter Killer droids that the galaxy has to offer - designed to kill Force sensitives. We're talking the IG series of their time. And we can guarantee they will be in numbers, yes the Exile encountered them in small groups but that was for the sake of stealth tactics, armies of HK-50 assassin droids charging across the galaxy is going to draw unwanted attention. And will remove an possibility of them posing as protocol droids. (And for the record, the factory is established canon, this has been done so through the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide and The New Essential Guide to Droids.) Ultimately though the HKs are outclassed by the Sith, however let's not forget this only has to be a distraction for the MSG to be reactivated. So success of failure is largely irrelevant.

 

Speaking of the MSG, yes, information is hazy, (but luckily we have K-Canon) but that's all we have to go on and we can't go making assumptions to suit our argument when we have no evidence to base it on. It seems perfectly plausible to me that the MSG is underground, else it would be effectively useless as once its activated the planet will be bombarded with debris and any structures overground will be destroyed. Including the MSG which will then be deactivated and the mass shadows will stop. So underground seems a given, this is supported by the fact that the Remote never interacts with the weapon directly, and we see no evidence of it on the planets surface. There may be some sort of underground passage to reach it, but this would seem counterintuive as well, your only going to be able activate it once, giving the massive amount of damage it does to the planet and the intense gravity it produces. Nor would you have any reason to activate it again. Its not designed to be reactivated. However Bao-Dur evidently found a way. And seeing as the device is underground, and reactivating it doesn't actually involve interacting with it directly, Traya has nothing to guard/booby trap.

 

Despite all this, an evacuation you say is likely. And I reckon it will be to Korriban, obvious yes, but where else can she go? (Not Dxun.) And isn't the best way of defeating G0-T0 exhausting his forces? An attack on Korriban will be a lot harder as G0-T0's forces actually have to win. They have no superweapon to rely on this time, and Traya has the time to start crippling G0-T0's powerbase.

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