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Lost Island HM should have better loot.


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It takes my normal group about 8 minutes from starting the FP to clearing LR-5. If you honestly think Rakata drops should be farmable THAT quickly I don't know what to tell you. The best compromises I've seen was Kitru's suggestion of dropping some Rakata level mods and to bring the comm drops up to Columi instead of Tionese.

 

It has been cleared by multiple full Tionese groups so it does not require 56 to beat. I'd also like to highlight that you can't compare clearing content in the minimum possible gear and undermanning content with much better gear than required.

 

I've cleared this with a PUG in less than Columi gear. No one had ANY Rakata, just about half Columi half Tionese. Yes we wiped several (read many many) times, but we got it down. In general, gear gives you a buffer on hitting mechanics, in this FP, hitting mechanics gives you a buffer on (what is accepted as, but not intended as) the minimum gear.

 

So what? Rakata is only the 4th best gear(Dreadguard, Campaign, BH) in the game right now, people can also buy Rakata implants from GTN.

 

Most of the groups require Columi to beat, especially pugs, yeah you said you did with 1, but how many PUG groups you've met can clean it with such gear before too many wipes?

Edited by Slowpokeking
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So what? Rakata is only the 4th best gear(Dreadguard, Campaign, BH) in the game right now, people can also buy Rakata implants from GTN.

 

Most of the groups require Columi to beat, especially pugs, yeah you said you did with 1, but how many PUG groups you've met can clean it with such gear before too many wipes?

 

Probably none, no way can you get a bunch of randoms/tionese only group via GF and get far. Most people above are vouching for guild runs and probably do it with voip which is why they are saying it's easy.

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So what? Rakata is only the 4th best gear(Dreadguard, Campaign, BH) in the game right now, people can also buy Rakata implants from GTN.

 

Most of the groups require Columi to beat, especially pugs, yeah you said you did with 1, but how many PUG groups you've met can clean it with such gear before too many wipes?

 

Most PUGs these days way overgear any content. That's probably the lowest group I've seen in a PUG LI and its one I organised in General. I don't regularly PUG this FP, but I've cleared it a few times in a PUG. Since my first clear I've never had a PUG give up or be unable to do it.

 

It's really tough until you learn it, then its a nice challenge for a bit before you get it really down. After that its a joke like the rest of the FPs.

 

Also, Rakata is the 3rd best gear in the game. Campaign and BH are the same tier. HM LI is still the only infinitely farmable content that drops above Columi. Yes BH gear is better but without setting foot in an Op you can only get 47 comms a week. Thats not even a slotted piece a week.

 

Maybe if HM LI dropped Rakata belt and bracers that would be ok. They're trash anyway. Stops people getting a bunch of mods and its craftable if you have the right skills.

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There's a difference between being difficult and being a gear check, the shaclaw and sav rak are a huge gear check on healers unless you happen to be some sort of healing god most would never be able to heal through the spike damage in just tionese.

 

...

I don't disagree in general with the fact that HM LI is difficult, but many people including yourself really seem to overstate the problem.

 

When my sage healer turned 50 (second toon to bring into HM LI) I was 1/2 Columi with Rakata earpiece and I was able to heal both the Shaclaw and Sav-Rak. And I'm not some spectacular healer either. I've personally grouped with 5 other healers who far outstrip my skill, and at the time I first healed HM LI I was still learning the ropes.

 

I'm not trying to say it's easy. That's not my point. And probably a Tionese healer would really need to be at the top of their game. But I've seem dpses stand on the wrong side of Sav-Rak and eat the conal attack taking too much damage. And I've seem others not do that making the healer's life easy.

 

I dps'ed Sav-Rak and have seen a healer run out of force. And I've seen other healers elegantly work Noble Sacrifice every time they get the free proc. As a healer I can land a Salvation right before he starts the chest pounding stage. We're all waiting in the middle doing dps and getting topped off before the pipe stage.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that this is hard, and it is challenging and (for me at least) it is fun because it is challenging. But I've seem people in this thread claim that HM LI is harder than SM EC. All that tells me is there are people missing some aspects of the mechanics that make the fights seem like a gear check, because they have to overgear it to make up for mistakes.

Edited by Khevar
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Probably none, no way can you get a bunch of randoms/tionese only group via GF and get far. Most people above are vouching for guild runs and probably do it with voip which is why they are saying it's easy.

This is probably true.

 

But that applies to EC and TfB as well. Gather an 8-man pug, don't let them use VOIP and put them in EC.

 

They're either going to

 

a) Fail

b) Be way overgeared

c) Be elite-super-good individual players that have done it a million times already

Edited by Khevar
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Most PUGs these days way overgear any content. That's probably the lowest group I've seen in a PUG LI and its one I organised in General. I don't regularly PUG this FP, but I've cleared it a few times in a PUG. Since my first clear I've never had a PUG give up or be unable to do it.

 

It's really tough until you learn it, then its a nice challenge for a bit before you get it really down. After that its a joke like the rest of the FPs.

.

 

I've cleared with pug a few times as well, and all of them have at least Columi, all tionese groups failed horribly.

 

It's not you learn it, pugs simply disband after a few tries.

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No, from all the good groups(beat the whole FP) I've had, there is only 1 group got 2 columi characters, one of that is my sorcerer, others all have rakata or higher.

 

Since it need 56 to beat, why can't it have 58 drop through out the way, and it's not like you can skip LR-5 or Sav Rak.

 

Before 1.3 and the 5 BH com daily, Tier 1 HM FPs were for the Columi drop off the final boss. The rest got vendor'd or given to a comp. Well, the 1 Columi piece and the Biometric mat.

 

The difference between daily gear and Tionese was small enough that no one really cared much about the Tio drops.

 

People do HM LI for fun, final boss gear, and the possibility of a pet/speeder.

 

In other HM FPs people run it for final boss gear. Seems like HM LI has more reasons to be done, not less.

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It's not you learn it, pugs simply disband after a few tries.

 

So why don't you start crusading that PUGs shouldn't be allowed to disband until they're cleared the instance?

 

The issue is that its a mechanic heavy instance and if you aren't coordinating you will die quickly and frequently. PUGs aren't known for their coordination so they have a harder time doing it. As Khevar said, this is like a mini EC from a mechanics standpoint, you can't just ignore the mechanics. Personally, I find LI much more forgiving than that boss in BoI that everyone just runs past because he's insanely tough on melee. The only difference (IMO) is that you can't skip the LI bosses when they get too hard.

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Before 1.3 and the 5 BH com daily, Tier 1 HM FPs were for the Columi drop off the final boss. The rest got vendor'd or given to a comp. Well, the 1 Columi piece and the Biometric mat.

 

The difference between daily gear and Tionese was small enough that no one really cared much about the Tio drops.

 

And that's why they changed it, right now Tier 1 HM drops

 

Level 56 Exotech

Columi Implants/Earpieces/belts

Some Relics

 

All these are upgrade to Tionese players.

 

People do HM LI for fun, final boss gear, and the possibility of a pet/speeder.

 

In other HM FPs people run it for final boss gear. Seems like HM LI has more reasons to be done, not less.

 

Why should a FP only have the final boss drop upgrade? Would it be fair if EC HM only drop rakata before the final boss? If other bosses drop useless stuff to most of the people(they need columi to beat), why put them there?

Edited by Slowpokeking
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So why don't you start crusading that PUGs shouldn't be allowed to disband until they're cleared the instance?

 

The issue is that its a mechanic heavy instance and if you aren't coordinating you will die quickly and frequently. PUGs aren't known for their coordination so they have a harder time doing it. As Khevar said, this is like a mini EC from a mechanics standpoint, you can't just ignore the mechanics. Personally, I find LI much more forgiving than that boss in BoI that everyone just runs past because he's insanely tough on melee. The only difference (IMO) is that you can't skip the LI bosses when they get too hard.

 

It's not they shouldn't do it, this is a game and people's patience is limited, not to say you have to pay repair bills.

 

So you should tell people what to do over and over again? I'm sure they will leave the FP, and I do think the difficulty does not match the drop. Why spend hours to wipe, tons of bills to repair when you can do D7/Foundry nice and easily to get the same gear?

 

No, I did all the boss quite a few times, he's not even close to any bosses in LI.

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Why should a FP only have the final boss drop upgrade? Would it be fair if EC HM only drop rakata before the final boss? If other bosses drop useless stuff to most of the people(they need columi to beat), why put them there?

See, this is an excellent point.

 

The average player that makes it into HM EC is going to have mostly Black Hole. Ever since 1.5 dropped they've also been able to buy Campaign armoring from the BH vendor, and many have this as well.

 

This means that the average player is going to get BUPKISS from HM EC until the final boss when the Campaign mainhand drops.

By comparison, a skilled player is going to go into HM EC with less level 61 gear, and more Rakata. THEY are the ones that benefit from the drop.

 

I'm trying to say the same thing for HM LI.

 

The AVERAGE player only gets a benefit from the final boss. The SKILLED player who is not overgearing it gets a benefit from ALL the bosses.

Edited by Khevar
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It's not they shouldn't do it, this is a game and people's patience is limited, not to say you have to pay repair bills.

 

So you should tell people what to do over and over again? I'm sure they will leave the FP, and I do think the difficulty does not match the drop. Why spend hours to wipe, tons of bills to repair when you can do D7/Foundry nice and easily to get the same gear?

 

No, I did all the boss quite a few times, he's not even close to any bosses in LI.

 

Aside from you, the only people I see complaining about the difficulty not matching the drops are people that either have cleared it once, or never cleared it. The people that are stating that the drops are fine are the ones that have cleared it multiple times.

 

LI drops are inline with EVERY other piece of content in the game. It is a mechanic heavy instance so players have to actually DO the right thing. Its about on par with pre-nerf Bulwark IMO. If someone wasn't hitting their shield and burning their add ASAP you wiped to enrage. Now that fight is a joke.

 

Now compare being 1-2 tiers over gear when running LI HM (Columi/Rakata) to running TFB or EC SM (Rakata/BH). You get very little upgrade except off the last boss. If you're willing to push it in lower tier gear, you get quite a bit from it.

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See, this is an excellent point.

 

The average player that makes it into HM EC is going to have mostly Black Hole. Ever since 1.5 dropped they've also been able to buy Campaign armoring from the BH vendor, and many have this as well.

 

No, the people I've met can do a few bosses with Rakata and get the upgrade. 1.5 was only out for a few weeks and that's long after TFB released.

 

 

 

This means that the average player is going to get BUPKISS from HM EC until the final boss when the Campaign mainhand drops.

By comparison, a skilled player is going to go into HM EC with less level 61 gear, and more Rakata. THEY are the ones that benefit from the drop.

 

I'm trying to say the same thing for HM LI.

 

The AVERAGE player only gets a benefit from the final boss. The SKILLED player who is not overgearing it gets a benefit from ALL the bosses.

 

If it's good design, why didn't TFB HM drop campaign until the final boss? And HM KP/EV can be done with Columi for the majority. Tier 1 HM also drop useful stuff for Tionese like I listed. If that's good design, why didn't Bio continue with it? Nor did I see from even vanilla WOW.

 

A FP's boss encounters should drop upgrade for the majority, simple role, I don't know why you are against it.

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Aside from you, the only people I see complaining about the difficulty not matching the drops are people that either have cleared it once, or never cleared it. The people that are stating that the drops are fine are the ones that have cleared it multiple times.

 

No, even in this thread, people mostly cleared it.

 

LI drops are inline with EVERY other piece of content in the game. It is a mechanic heavy instance so players have to actually DO the right thing. Its about on par with pre-nerf Bulwark IMO. If someone wasn't hitting their shield and burning their add ASAP you wiped to enrage. Now that fight is a joke.

 

No it's not, unless you want to compare the difficulty of Revan VS LR-5 or Mentor VS Sav-Rak

Yes, and Bulwark got nerfed, if it was still so hard with the same drop people won't be willing to do D7 that much.

 

Now compare being 1-2 tiers over gear when running LI HM (Columi/Rakata) to running TFB or EC SM (Rakata/BH). You get very little upgrade except off the last boss. If you're willing to push it in lower tier gear, you get quite a bit from it.

 

There are HM and the SM of these is to know the HM well enough, LI is different.

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If it's good design, why didn't TFB HM drop campaign until the final boss? And HM KP/EV can be done with Columi for the majority. Tier 1 HM also drop useful stuff for Tionese like I listed. If that's good design, why didn't Bio continue with it? Nor did I see from even vanilla WOW.

 

A FP's boss encounters should drop upgrade for the majority, simple role, I don't know why you are against it.

 

TFB is TUNED for Camapign, people don't have the option of overgearing it without spending a fortune. HM EC is tuned for un-augmented Rakata, but most people can't clear it in that. Anyone that can, should be able to clear HM LI in Tionese/Columi mix.

 

HM EV/KP are also TUNED for Columi. Doesn't mean the majority can do it in those, but those groups that do head in there with Columi will get upgrades.

 

You're now comparing what something is TUNED for with what most people can CLEAR it in. Yes, it is possible to clear content in the gear it is tuned for, that is the point! It is possible to clear LI HM in Tionese, which it is tuned for. Just because some people can't, doesn't mean it is wrong.

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No, even in this thread, people mostly cleared it.

 

You're pretty much the only person who has cleared it and is claiming it needs to drop better gear.

 

No it's not, unless you want to compare the difficulty of Revan VS LR-5 or Mentor VS Sav-Rak

Yes, and Bulwark got nerfed, if it was still so hard with the same drop people won't be willing to do D7 that much.

 

No people wouldn't run D7 once they got there Aratech. Doesn't mean it needed to be changed, but if you're rewarding people with BH comms for doing a PUG run, you better not penalise them heavily for getting some bad RNG.

 

There are HM and the SM of these is to know the HM well enough, LI is different.

 

You can run SM LI to get most of the mechanics but HM adds a couple and makes the existing ones more punishing. This is EXACTLY the same as TFB and EC (Fearful, Overload, Gift of the Masters, Incubation and Lightning Field come to mind as either being new brutal or just more brutal than they were).

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TFB is TUNED for Camapign, people don't have the option of overgearing it without spending a fortune. HM EC is tuned for un-augmented Rakata, but most people can't clear it in that. Anyone that can, should be able to clear HM LI in Tionese/Columi mix.

 

Most of the people can at least do a few bosses and get upgrade from it. As for Tionese groups, I've yet to see one not wipe on that mini boss at least once and not died horribly against LR-5. The 3 bosses are around the same difficulty, all of them are not friendly to Tionese. LR-5 is a challenge to the whole team since there are a lot of things going on during the fight and melee DPS need to move well. Sav-Rak is mostly about healing. Lorrick is tank's position skill and a challenge to DPS.

 

HM EV/KP are also TUNED for Columi. Doesn't mean the majority can do it in those, but those groups that do head in there with Columi will get upgrades.

 

Yes they can, at least quite a few bosses.

 

You're now comparing what something is TUNED for with what most people can CLEAR it in. Yes, it is possible to clear content in the gear it is tuned for, that is the point! It is possible to clear LI HM in Tionese, which it is tuned for. Just because some people can't, doesn't mean it is wrong.

 

But the majority, again, need Columi to clear it, especially people who never did this FP before.

 

And it's not like the ops, you can clear a few bosses, which are significantly easier than the final one and try next time with better gear. LR-5 is not easier(not much) than Lorrick to Tionese groups.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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You're pretty much the only person who has cleared it and is claiming it needs to drop better gear.

 

No, other people in this thread also cleared it.

 

No people wouldn't run D7 once they got there Aratech. Doesn't mean it needed to be changed, but if you're rewarding people with BH comms for doing a PUG run, you better not penalise them heavily for getting some bad RNG.

 

Yes and then why shouldn't LI's drop fit its difficulty?

 

You can run SM LI to get most of the mechanics but HM adds a couple and makes the existing ones more punishing. This is EXACTLY the same as TFB and EC (Fearful, Overload, Gift of the Masters, Incubation and Lightning Field come to mind as either being new brutal or just more brutal than they were).

 

But like TFB/EC HM, the HM should drop better gear, not just to test people.

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No, other people in this thread also cleared it.

 

Not in the last few pages.... Can't be bothered going back any earlier

 

Yes and then why shouldn't LI's drop fit its difficulty?

 

Because you can exclude LI HM from your list without missing out on rewards. It is ENTIRELY optional.

 

But like TFB/EC HM, the HM should drop better gear, not just to test people.

 

It does drop better gear... Columi and Rakata.

 

Most of the people can at least do a few bosses and get upgrade from it. As for Tionese groups, I've yet to see one not wipe on that mini boss at least once and not died horribly against LR-5. The 3 bosses are around the same difficulty, all of them are not friendly to Tionese. LR-5 is a challenge to the whole team since there are a lot of things going on during the fight and melee DPS need to move well. Sav-Rak is mostly about healing. Lorrick is tank's position skill and a challenge to DPS.

 

Consider that people going into HM TFB KNOW they are going to wipe repeatedly, it is progression level content and people are willing to wipe repeatedly and learn it. PUGs are not. If you can find a PUG for that, that doesn't disband after 10 wipes, I'll be impressed.

 

Yes they can, at least quite a few bosses.

 

Show me an average PUG go into HM EV/KP in full Columi having never done it and clear it fine.

 

But the majority, again, need Columi to clear it, especially people who never did this FP before.

 

If you want to continually bring up people who aren't regularly clearning HM LI, you need to consider these same people for all of your gear requirements.

 

And it's not like the ops, you can clear a few bosses, which are significantly easier than the final one and try next time with better gear. LR-5 is not easier(not much) than Lorrick to Tionese groups.

 

I personally find Lorrick to be the easiest boss in the instance aside from the constant aggro drops in the burn stage and I've done him as all 3 roles. Hardest part is not yelling at my DPS for the 50th time to stop standing on my side of Lorrick while I kite the Satchel Charges.

 

Look, you're so invested in this argument that you can't admit your wrong at this point despite vast evidence so I'm going to give you an out (and hope Khevar follows suit) and stop replying here. Do the same and save face.

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Because you can exclude LI HM from your list without missing out on rewards. It is ENTIRELY optional.

 

I was trying to give advice to Bioware and make this game better.

 

It does drop better gear... Columi and Rakata.

 

Only the final boss for the majority.

 

Consider that people going into HM TFB KNOW they are going to wipe repeatedly, it is progression level content and people are willing to wipe repeatedly and learn it. PUGs are not. If you can find a PUG for that, that doesn't disband after 10 wipes, I'll be impressed.

 

Because TFB drops the best gear in the game right now, EC NiM is not easier. Once new ops and higher tier is out Bioware is going to nerf it to avoid there are too big gear gap between people. And unlike TFB, LI encourage PUG, that's why it's on the GF selection.

 

Show me an average PUG go into HM EV/KP in full Columi having never done it and clear it fine.

 

If you want to continually bring up people who aren't regularly clearning HM LI, you need to consider these same people for all of your gear requirements.

 

I've met groups who can clear a few bosses, but Tionese groups cannot beat even 1 real boss, no matter they know the fight or not, and unlike HM EV/KP, LI encourage PUGs otherwise it would not be on the GF selection.

 

 

I personally find Lorrick to be the easiest boss in the instance aside from the constant aggro drops in the burn stage and I've done him as all 3 roles. Hardest part is not yelling at my DPS for the 50th time to stop standing on my side of Lorrick while I kite the Satchel Charges.

 

He is easy with a ok tank and good DPS, so that proved my point.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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I've met groups who can clear a few bosses, but Tionese groups cannot beat even 1 real boss, no matter they know the fight or not, and unlike HM EV/KP, LI encourage PUGs otherwise it would not be on the GF selection.

.

 

Actually "good" tionese groups can clear LI HM, I've met a tank who done it in recruit gear first time with his guild. However by the term "good" I'm talking about the top 5% who are at the top of their game and know their class inside out.

 

However the gear requirements should not be based on what "good" players can achieve but what the majority can, the reason BW seem to think tionese is OK for the masses is because they probably want more people queuing for it. It's a misconception to the average joe who thinks he can handle it in tionese or recruit on a random PuG GF run when really his group will be picking up the pieces because of it.

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...

 

A FP's boss encounters should drop upgrade for the majority, simple role, I don't know why you are against it.

"Should" again. "Should" is a highly subjective thing.

 

I think that Bioware should design encounter that are difficult, but not impossible. I think that Bioware should bring encounters to the game that cater to different levels of ability. I think there are Tier 1 flashpoints and Tier 2 flashpoints. I think there are Tier 1 operations and Tier 2 operations.

 

I think that a Tier 2 flashpoint and a Tier 2 operation should provide a significant level of challenge to cater to the more skilled players, to give them a reason to keep logging in. I believe that Jesse Sky is referring to "tuned for Tionese" meaning that it was turned for the more skilled players.

 

I also think that Tier 2 flashpoints and Tier 2 operations should not be so difficult that they can't be mastered by less skilled players. These players accomplish this by "overgearing" And the gear drops are therefore less rewarding.

 

This, in my personal opinion, is fair. This is also, I believe the intent of the designers of HM LI.

 

What I am against, is players trying to convince the designers that they are making encounters too hard. If they believe this to be the case, future flashpoints and operations will hold less challenge.

 

I have been bringing my voice to this thread over the last 4 months because I want to assure the level designers that harder content is a good thing, and why I believe it to be so. Some day we will see Hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders, Collicoid War Games, Cademimu, Athiss and The Red Reaper as hard modes. I want these to be Tier 2 flashpoints, very difficult, and require skill and expertise to master.

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Actually "good" tionese groups can clear LI HM, I've met a tank who done it in recruit gear first time with his guild. However by the term "good" I'm talking about the top 5% who are at the top of their game and know their class inside out.

 

However the gear requirements should not be based on what "good" players can achieve but what the majority can, the reason BW seem to think tionese is OK for the masses is because they probably want more people queuing for it. It's a misconception to the average joe who thinks he can handle it in tionese or recruit on a random PuG GF run when really his group will be picking up the pieces because of it.

 

I know there are groups, but it's really hard to meet 1 with GF.

 

Tionese groups have trouble because

 

LR-5 fight has a lot of things going on, it's difficult to avoid all the damage from adds/bubble/lava, the tank also has to interrupt every incinerate asap. So Tionese people are going to have a longer fight and mistake has a bigger chance to occur, and their gear does not allow it to happen.

 

Sav Rak is mostly about the healing, sure people can avoid damage but it's not easy especially with lags, his smash is not hard to manage but 1 mistake on that pretty much=wipe. The boss also have a tight enrage timer. 2 days ago my sorcerer did it with mostly Columi groups and it enraged once when it has 10k HP left. Tionese groups surely will have a challenge.

 

Lorrick is all about DPS, that group I mentioned finished his 1st phase when the 1st champion Kolto was released and took a little while to finish his 2nd phase(burning rakghouls), his 3rd phase is also a DPS rush so Tionese groups have to do really well on that.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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"Should" again. "Should" is a highly subjective thing.

 

I think that Bioware should design encounter that are difficult, but not impossible. I think that Bioware should bring encounters to the game that cater to different levels of ability. I think there are Tier 1 flashpoints and Tier 2 flashpoints. I think there are Tier 1 operations and Tier 2 operations.

 

I think that a Tier 2 flashpoint and a Tier 2 operation should provide a significant level of challenge to cater to the more skilled players, to give them a reason to keep logging in. I believe that Jesse Sky is referring to "tuned for Tionese" meaning that it was turned for the more skilled players.

 

I also think that Tier 2 flashpoints and Tier 2 operations should not be so difficult that they can't be mastered by less skilled players. These players accomplish this by "overgearing" And the gear drops are therefore less rewarding.

 

This, in my personal opinion, is fair. This is also, I believe the intent of the designers of HM LI.

 

What I am against, is players trying to convince the designers that they are making encounters too hard. If they believe this to be the case, future flashpoints and operations will hold less challenge.

 

I have been bringing my voice to this thread over the last 4 months because I want to assure the level designers that harder content is a good thing, and why I believe it to be so. Some day we will see Hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders, Collicoid War Games, Cademimu, Athiss and The Red Reaper as hard modes. I want these to be Tier 2 flashpoints, very difficult, and require skill and expertise to master.

 

I'm not against difficulty, but the drop should match its difficulty for the majority, the drop should give upgrade to the majority who can do it, that's being fair. And that's most of the good games are doing.

 

Also LI is different than some OPS, its difficulty of the 3 bosses are around the same level, all of them are significantly more difficult than all the Tier 1 HM bosses and very hard for Tionese groups. So it's not like most of the people with Tionese can at least clean 1-2 bosses, get the upgrade and try to do more next time.

 

And I don't understand what are you people against? Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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