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Why do modern MMO's complicate gearing at endgame?


Ferrety

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The original commendation system was perfectly fine and worked great. If you weren't lucky to get loot in Flashpoints or Operations you at least were working towards a goal (not a random crate but an actual targeted reward). This was the same for PVP, it worked fine.

 

Developers these days seem to be under constant pressure to innovate and tinker with game systems regardless of how well they may or may not work.

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. World of Warcraft has the same damn problem...

 

I'm trying real hard to get my friends (who use to play back from 1.0-2.0 era) back into the game but explaining how the loot system works (and is going to work in 6.0) makes that very difficult!

 

<3

 

Thanks, just wanted to rant.

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I don't want to burst your bubble, but old school mmorgs were much more restrictive.

 

"Old school" gearing usually meant no commendations but fixed drop list by boss, so you needed to grind specific content over and over until you got "your" drop. There were also no things like "bolster", i.e. you needed gear grind for all content.

 

Only afterwards was gearing further and further trivialized. Now the pendulum swings back, which I personally don't mind.

Edited by Arutar
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Well to be fair I never mentioned 'old school mmo gearing', more specifically I was talking about the original loot system in this game.

 

I wholeheartedly prefer the classic drop system combined with a commendation/token system to what exists now though.

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For this game it's simple, lack of developers. It's easier to create a gearing system that extends that stick with the carrot on it then to create new content. Except their devolving of the gearing systems over the years has all but killed the game off, among other things. The Ossus Weekly is a perfect example of how bad RNG actually is. When you run that Weekly and well over fifty percent of the time, you're looting relics and implants, something's wrong.

 

Regarding other games, no idea. Too much caffeine? :eek:

 

Edited by Pirana
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Modern RNG lootbox gambling schemes are made up to maximise playtime (aka "games as a service") and trigger addictive collection behaviour (aka "thrill of the hunt") to milk the most money out of your playerbase with minimal effort in development.

 

1) Grind the loot into fine dust

2) Throw the dust into players face

3) Whatever randomly sticks may be of use, if not enough - rinse and repeat

4) ???

5) Profit

 

PS: I like the idea of horizontal gearing, I like the sets on PTS (even though most of the tweaking does not matter much) - I absolutely despise the horrendous RNG that's solely there to artificially lengthen the time required to gear up.

Edited by HekaHeh
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Modern RNG lootbox gambling schemes are made up to maximise playtime (aka "games as a service") and trigger addictive collection behaviour (aka "thrill of the hunt") to milk the most money out of your playerbase with minimal effort in development.

 

1) Grind the loot into fine dust

2) Throw the dust into players face

3) Whatever randomly sticks may be of use, if not enough - rinse and repeat

4) ???

5) Profit

 

PS: I like the idea of horizontal gearing, I like the sets on PTS (even though most of the tweaking does not matter much) - I absolutely despise the horrendous RNG that's solely there to artificially lengthen the time required to gear up.

 

Yep, plus devs know that players consume content at such a fast rate that it's hard to keep up. What takes months to create ends up only taking a few hours to complete. We're ravenous and they know it, so they throttle us with gear grind, decreased xp rate, and RNG. Players look at games and see enjoyment. Companies look at games and see only profit. It's nothing personal, it's business!

Edited by TonyTricicolo
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

I have written this mantra for years now regarding SWTOR and the dev work they choose to do. They put out paltry content, and then spend their resources (both time and money) re-creating stuff that doesn't need to be remade.

 

 


  •  
  • Gearing systems that players never complained about? Gutted and changed into RNG loot box fiesta that created a mass exodus of the game.
     
     
  • Conquest system that hardly needed any changes? Gutted and changed to punish alts pushing tons of conquest players/guilds off the game.
     
     
  • Crafting system players never complained about? 6.0 changing crafting to make it punish solo crafting players and posed to reward large zerg guilds with mats they can farm easily.

 

 

Basically every change that would be met with disapproval and resentment has been added and updated to the game, making it less enjoyable and as a result less populated. These are just the facts.

 

The sabotage of this game seems so ridiculously structured you'd think it was purposefully done. Either they are trying to kill the game with awful game design choices, or they are 100% clueless and this is the result of a mismanagement nightmare.

 

What other explanations are there for the choices this studio has made over the years? Love to hear some white knights explain how any of these changes have made the game better.

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For [various redacted words] sake! Yet another thread about gearing. Give it a rest, already! 🤬

 

Just to help you out a bit, forums are where people communicate to other players as well as the studio about whatever topics they feel like discussing or commenting on.

 

This is how the studio is reminded that their present game design is awful and it's not just a couple naysayers saying it.

 

If you find this frustrating, maybe consider this before you get worked up and emotional. I know other people's opinions can be frustrating to read, but it's part of the process of gaming forums.

 

I'd like to hear what your reasoning is to the OP's question, why do you think BW keeps complicating gearing when all that does is make it worse? How many more subs you think we can afford to lose with another disastrous update? :confused:

Edited by Lhancelot
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The sabotage of this game seems so ridiculously structured you'd think it was purposefully done. Either they are trying to kill the game with awful game design choices, or they are 100% clueless and this is the result of a mismanagement nightmare.

 

What other explanations are there for the choices this studio has made over the years? Love to hear some white knights explain how any of these changes have made the game better.

 

You are a wiseman and a scholar. Theses changes didn't make anything better at all, but I fear they were necessary because they couldn't deliver other content than RNG. #greyknight

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You are a wiseman and a scholar. Theses changes didn't make anything better at all, but I fear they were necessary because they couldn't deliver other content than RNG. #greyknight

 

Yeah that's the thing. We only can assume why they rather do redundant work instead of create new features that get added to the good parts that already exist in the game.

 

It's hard to believe all the work they do recreating stuff that doesn't need to be fixed or revamped is cost effective when in reality these changes actually cost them money with subs leaving the game.

 

They are cutting off their nose to spite their face, that's been the BW MO for years now on SWTOR. I don't know if they couldn't deliver content, as far as we know they might have just chosen not to, and instead put their eggs in another basket which was a bomb. (Anthem.)

 

It's easy to give them passes instead of just concluding maybe it's more of a mismanagement issue than it is a resource drought or lack of money. It's easy to blame EA for BW choosing to use loot boxes and doing all the other idiot things they have done regarding game design choices.

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Just to help you out a bit, forums are where people communicate to other players as well as the studio about whatever topics they feel like discussing or commenting on.

 

This is how the studio is reminded that their present game design is awful and it's not just a couple naysayers saying it.

 

If you find this frustrating, maybe consider this before you get worked up and emotional. I know other people's opinions can be frustrating to read, but it's part of the process of gaming forums.

 

I'd like to hear what your reasoning is to the OP's question, why do you think BW keeps complicating gearing when all that does is make it worse? How many more subs you think we can afford to lose with another disastrous update? :confused:

 

You and I disagree on making comments that are directed at the quality (or the lack there of) of leadership and design regarding SWTOR.

 

BUT... on this we can both agree.

 

Even thought most of what I post may be totally ignored … we still try to bring a little something to the table from time to time.

 

IF BW is serious about reading feed back and player participation … then IMO .. threads like this are a necessary part of the process.

 

As far as "complicating matters" … the simple fact of the matter is (to borrow another old quote) "The more complicated the plumbing … the easier it is to stop it up". Complexity does not always equal higher end or better results.

 

Also: another analogy for RNG:

 

To me .. RNG is like scoring a touchdown in football … then calling both of the team captains together in the middle of the field to shoot dice and see HOW MANY points were scored (if any at all).

 

RNG is unavoidable. No question about it. I may not like it … but it's there. However.. one thing that is for certain using RNG for a vendor to purchase specific items is a complete contradiction of purpose by design. It certainly will result in a great deal of frustration to those who play the game. That frustration will be dealt with one way or another. Some will vent that dissatisfaction here. Others will simply put up with it... And (unfortunately) others will simply find another game to play.

 

Why do so many games use a complex or drawn out approach to gearing up? Good question. My personal take on the answer lies somewhere between the availability of content in games that are being developed, the amount of time and money available for initial development, and the intensity in which players are on line playing this (or any other game).

 

* The initial content of this game was being burned through at an incredible rate. Someone posted a while back as to why and how this happened … along with the introduction of F2P into SWTOR some time back in the early stages of the game.

 

* Investors look for a quick return on their money these days. Soo... they want their money ASAP. This affects the overall development time allotted to the completion and release of any game.

 

* Lastly it's crazy just how fast some people can burn through the original game release. It's absolutely incredible how many hours some folks are on line. Nothing wrong with that I guess. BUT... at some point in time there has to be a realization that no game can be a substitute for "life" . No amount of content will last as long nor adequately be as fulfilling. Then again .. no game that substitutes RNG or complex systems for gearing up in order to fill in the gaps for lack of content is really on the cutting edge of being known for the "fun" it generates.

 

Yes.. all of these 3 points are somewhat connected. It's also unlikely that the cycle will ever be completely broken in game development. BUT... there is also little question in my mind that the one game that dares to break up at least part of the cycle, expand growth in areas like (better) PvP, crafting with better purpose … more frequently released PvE areas / goals / and opportunities to actually use their new BIS gear … That game will be a leader in the industry.

 

(just my opinion).

Edited by OlBuzzard
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As far as "complicating matters" … the simple fact of the matter is (to borrow another old quote) "The more complicated the plumbing … the easier it is to stop it up". Complexity does not always equal higher end or better results.

 

Right, I learned this as a small child when my dad told me this... He explained that a car with an electric window has one more thing that will break down versus a manual winding window, for instance. lol now i realize it's a silly analogy but the message is the same. Complexity doesn't always come with only improvements, there's a downside to complexity.

 

 

 

The initial content of this game was being burned through at an incredible rate. Someone posted a while back as to why and how this happened … along with the introduction of F2P into SWTOR some time back in the early stages of the game.

 

The difference, or problem is SWTOR did something no MMO ever did or has ever done, it came out with a focus on story and TONS of voice acting, millions of dollars worth!

 

So naturally their costs went into this facet of the game versus actual content that would take longer to keep players busy with.

 

The thing is, you can whip through the original chapters very fast especially if you don't want to listen to all the hundreds of hours of voice acting... Most of the development that went into voice acting and story can be totally ignored.

 

So the amount of time players have to play online doesn't matter regarding how this game can be played.

 

I'd say most story mode players, or players who really enjoy the voice acting and listen to every word of it probably find this game far more entertaining and fulfilling than players like me who care little about that and play it for PVP and/or PVE stuffs.

 

Before I get the lecture, no, I don't want to play other games that are known for their PVP and/or PVE. I like the nuances of this game with the Star Wars stuff and I like how the world is immersive in SWTOR. Other games don't make me feel comfortable in their worlds like this one does.

 

This game has had times in it's past where PVE and PVP were both fulfilling for me, and as time has passed the studio has made direct changes to the game and it's gameplay that have made it less enjoyable for me. Obviously a large portion of the original playerbase agree with me, too or there would be more active subs than there are now. People have left this game due to bad game design changes by BW, that's the direct cause of their problem.

 

I haven't thrown the towel in, but I aint holding my breath for them to improve upon the present mess the game has become.

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It's hard to believe all the work they do recreating stuff that doesn't need to be fixed or revamped is cost effective when in reality these changes actually cost them money with subs leaving the game.

[...]

I don't know if they couldn't deliver content, as far as we know they might have just chosen not to, and instead put their eggs in another basket which was a bomb. (Anthem.)

[...]

It's easy to blame EA for BW choosing to use loot boxes and doing all the other idiot things they have done regarding game design choices.

 

Since I've read that report that claimed they allegedly had (have) the resources, I guess it all comes down to a series of bad decisions, bad luck and the lack of ideas/balls to do stuff the "right" way. I've recently played thru the WoW expansions again and was staggered how much they tried to copy from the "big boy".

 

My best guess is very early after release they gave up trying to deliver content like they initially planned.

 

I can't get Mr. Ohlen (irrc) out of my head stating that they worked 1.5 years on the first rakghoul content batch (GU 1.1) - "that's how epic that is". The non recurring event was probably (at least imo) one of the best ones, the flashpoints are nice both in atmosphere and mechanics. It was content for roughly 2 weeks in my case.

 

You could argue what is RNG now was the stretch of the event over a week - but at least it felt somewhat original (like the Chevin event).

 

Ossus, on the other hand, is theoretically content for several months - if you care for gear acquisition and RNG'esus hates you. If not, Ossus is content for a mere few hours.

 

They want to focus on gear, which is absolutely okay in a MMO imo.

I want to be rewarded for stuff I do because I manage to do it.

I don't want to hammer(station) the slotmachine and pray for loot.

 

I digress, sry. I don't know why I still have love left for the game.

Guess I'm a weird addict who can't get away from his drug, who knows :rak_01:

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I do think you make a lot of assumptions here Lhancelot.

It feels like you present things as 'facts' while they are merely your personal believes. Of course, you will have people thinking the same thing as you do. But that still makes it a believe.

 

Take for example your last comment. "People have left because of bad game design". Maybe you are correct. Maybe not. What I do know is that most games have a wonderful start and then slowly die out. Why? I don't know? I have seen this happen so many times with games.

 

Also, and this is a personal opinion, I don't think reminiscing about the past is really warranted.

Back at launch the loot system still had quite some serious flaws. I don't miss the days where yet another columi knight token dropped while all knights already had theirs and I really needed something for my slinger. Even funnier was when for example a scoundrel would screw up and buy a slinger piece. Kiss goodbye to that token. At least know you can trade back your token.

Hmmmmmm speaking about columi tokens. My back then guildmaster had to run false emperor several dozens of times to get his token in there. I don't remember how it took him but it took ages ..... at least 50x if not more. At least now you can buy it with unassembled components or tech fragments once you have enough.

 

Owh and those champion bags? Did you know that opening your bags on the VIP section at midnight would yield the best results? (yes, this is me trying to be a bit sarcastic about how bad the RNG was in ye old ages. People were really think certain times of day were better by the way).

 

And owh man ........ I started out as a sentinel in a group with 2 guardian tanks and 2 other sentinels. We were like quintuplets .....

 

 

 

 

On a more serious note, well, i was serious before and still am, but just go with it please. Do I think bioware throws developer time away? Quite possibly yes. In 5.0 they made a very good call of making all ops worthwhile again. With 6.0 they kinda throw that invested money away again and instead go with level syncing players. Which has some rather wonky resuls currently. For example, healers that will need to go with accuracy stims as power stims are now defunct.

 

Do I think this system is too complicated? nah ...... hardly ...... I think people are overthinking way too much.

It's not like 5.0 was any easier. In 5.0 I had to hoard up my CXP packs and use them only if light side or dark side won. Or even a longer hoard when it was time for a 2x XP weekend again. I even had to resort at creating special macetoken toons to function as token bank. (there are other examples but I kinda want to finish the story with my sage so I'll stop here).

 

6.0 is the patch of the massive amounts of gear dropping which will mostly be deconstructed into tech frags which can be used for either guarenteed or random items.

Owh and that amplifier thingy? Don't fuss about it. You get so much gear that something is bound to drop that has a nice amp for you. And if it doesn't drop then reroll.

Is this so hard?

 

Anyways. Sage time. Bye and don't forget to try to have some fun in there. :rak_03::rak_03::rak_03::rak_03::rak_03::rak_03:

Edited by fire-breath
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[/snip]

 

 

The difference, or problem is SWTOR did something no MMO ever did or has ever done, it came out with a focus on story and TONS of voice acting, millions of dollars worth!

 

So naturally their costs went into this facet of the game versus actual content that would take longer to keep players busy with.

 

The thing is, you can whip through the original chapters very fast especially if you don't want to listen to all the hundreds of hours of voice acting... Most of the development that went into voice acting and story can be totally ignored.

 

So the amount of time players have to play online doesn't matter regarding how this game can be played.

 

I'd say most story mode players, or players who really enjoy the voice acting and listen to every word of it probably find this game far more entertaining and fulfilling than players like me who care little about that and play it for PVP and/or PVE stuffs.

 

Before I get the lecture, no, I don't want to play other games that are known for their PVP and/or PVE. I like the nuances of this game with the Star Wars stuff and I like how the world is immersive in SWTOR. Other games don't make me feel comfortable in their worlds like this one does.

 

This game has had times in it's past where PVE and PVP were both fulfilling for me, and as time has passed the studio has made direct changes to the game and it's gameplay that have made it less enjoyable for me. Obviously a large portion of the original playerbase agree with me, too or there would be more active subs than there are now. People have left this game due to bad game design changes by BW, that's the direct cause of their problem.

 

I haven't thrown the towel in, but I aint holding my breath for them to improve upon the present mess the game has become.

 

Again... I agree with a lot of this. Some good observations. And for whatever it's worth I do believe that you are right regarding the VA content. I personally enjoyed most of it. IMO .. a lot of the "likes" and "dislikes" opinions could be centered around certain characters / companions in the various stories.

 

Characters like Corso Riggs, Guss Tuno , Tanno Vik, Sergeant Rusk or perhaps the ever boring Elara Dorne some player might have pretty much "spaced barred to death" through whatever parts that were in the stories. At the very least let's just say players might have been more tempted to rush through those parts since they were less favorable characters to want to spend time with. I must confess that if Guss were stuck in an airlock … I might have been really tempted to "help him get out" … in the middle of uncharted space !! :D

 

One the other hand: Content that surrounds characters like Lana, Theron, HK-55 , Vette , Kira Carsen, and a few others would be something more desirable … and less likely to be ignored or passed over via riding the old space bar at an average speed of 6 taps per second ! :eek:

 

Making the sort of changes in the "mechanics" of the game: such as gear grinding roulette really has not ben in anyone's best interest. Regardless of how we got to this point... IMO the real question is what is going to be done about it !!

 

If it were not for the fact that this game deals in the realm of Star Wars … I doubt seriously that I'd be that interested in reading the posts … and or participating in the forum discussions.

 

IMO... a part of the balance needed: Content... more of the stories is good. It has been the foundation of the game and should not be abandoned. IMO that aspect of the game has been pretty darn good !! That said: there is no substitute for game activities, playable content (not just watching the cut scenes ). More PvE OP's, PvP zones PvE activities with various levels of player (solo AND MULTIPLAYER) interaction is a must. I know that there are other major player interests such as crafting that is a huge part of the game. All of this and more !

 

I also agree: I haven't given up just yet. I probably wont on the day after 6.0 drops either. But at some point in time change for the better is a must.

 

I guess that the one thing that I'm very fortunate to be able to fall back on are the options I still have in RL:

* 3-D modeling

* Wood carving

* Bass Fishing

* other games

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This is how the studio is reminded that their present game design is awful and it's not just a couple naysayers saying it.

This, of course, is purely your own personal opinion. But, your opinion does not actually make the game awful - it's still just an opinion.

Also, in reality, compared to the numbers of people who play this game, and even the number of regular users of these forums, it IS just a couple (or a handful) of naysayers.

I'd like to hear what your reasoning is to the OP's question, why do you think BW keeps complicating gearing when all that does is make it worse?

Again - it's just your opinion that it makes it worse - that doesn't make it a fact.

How many more subs you think we can afford to lose with another disastrous update?

How many subs did they lose?

How many subs did they gain?

You don't know the answers do you?

 

It's the fact that people such as yourself keep talking about how terrible the game/update/whatever is without actually knowing anything about how many people actually sub or un-sub as a result**, that gets really tiresome.

 

But, of course, the simple solution is for me to just ignore this thread ..... which I will. :p

 

** People could just un-sub because they don't like the game, irrespective of any RNG/gearing issues.

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For [various redacted words] sake! Yet another thread about gearing. Give it a rest, already! 🤬

 

You don't like it? Boo hoo. How about you give it a rest. No? You don't like that either? Then don't tell others what they can and can't talk about here.

 

Maybe if there was more to do in this game than "gear" for the sake of "gearing" there would be more varied topics. But we don't. They'd rather redo gearing every year than add things to use that gear in. Also, the lack of topic variation is a reflection of the shrunken population. The pool of topics may be larger if we had a larger pool of posters. But we don't.. Deal with it.

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This, of course, is purely your own personal opinion. But, your opinion does not actually make the game awful - it's still just an opinion.

 

nautrally it's MY opinion, lol. Do I need to add that in so people realize what I state is an opinion and not a fact? I may present my opinion strongly and word it as factual but I shouldn't have to remind people that yes, I am expressing my opinion. I am pretty sure readers know that it's my opinion.

 

But what's not opinion is the population has dropped after each and every large update, leaving us with less and less players. I suppose it could be just coincidence, too. Maybe people just suddenly felt like quitting and going to other games for absolutely no reason at all. :rolleyes:

 

I feel pretty confident my impression of the game design choices BW has made have been awful, especially when I can read what content creators write, pretty much exactly as I feel about the game's past updates as well as how they so far have developed 6.0.

 

For their sake and ours I hope they make massive changes, especially regarding RNG layered on top of RNG as well as the crafting changes which seem to be the last facet of the game they have not utterly destroyed. They can accomplish that with 6.0 though, so we will see.

 

I take no pride in expressing accurate critical and often bad impressions of how the game has been developed, but sometimes the truth isn't always pleasant but it's the truth. No matter how we try to hide it, the truth is always there.

 

The OP expresses the same frustration as me. I guess it doesn't matter either, right? being an opinion and all. About opinions, that's what all of us add here when we assess the game, I mean it's subjective what one person likes or dislikes.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR

 

Unfortunately, regarding game design choices BW has made for SWTOR, my opinion is they have been awful and only served to reduce the game's population after each and every large update that has changed gameplay.

 

Although my opinion, this much is a fact.

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nautrally it's MY opinion, lol. Do I need to add that in so people realize what I state is an opinion and not a fact? I may present my opinion strongly and word it as factual but I shouldn't have to remind people that yes, I am expressing my opinion. I am pretty sure readers know that it's my opinion.

 

But what's not opinion is the population has dropped after each and every large update, leaving us with less and less players. I suppose it could be just coincidence, too. Maybe people just suddenly felt like quitting and going to other games for absolutely no reason at all. :rolleyes:

 

I feel pretty confident my impression of the game design choices BW has made have been awful, especially when I can read what content creators write, pretty much exactly as I feel about the game's past updates as well as how they so far have developed 6.0.

 

For their sake and ours I hope they make massive changes, especially regarding RNG layered on top of RNG as well as the crafting changes which seem to be the last facet of the game they have not utterly destroyed. They can accomplish that with 6.0 though, so we will see.

 

I take no pride in expressing accurate critical and often bad impressions of how the game has been developed, but sometimes the truth isn't always pleasant but it's the truth. No matter how we try to hide it, the truth is always there.

 

The OP expresses the same frustration as me. I guess it doesn't matter either, right? being an opinion and all. About opinions, that's what all of us add here when we assess the game, I mean it's subjective what one person likes or dislikes.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR

 

Unfortunately, regarding game design choices BW has made for SWTOR, my opinion is they have been awful and only served to reduce the game's population after each and every large update that has changed gameplay.

 

Although my opinion, this much is a fact.

 

In light of OP .. to get to the bottom of the current state of the game there are other issues to review. IMO … the only down side of focusing on obtaining gear mechanics is the possibility of ignoring other issues of equal value. Well … to some players these "other issues" are of equal value:

* PvP updates / gear / zones and other concerns. There are literally dozens of posts on this topic as well

* companions … mostly bricked for some time now. The probably is that due to the cost of production of as many active companions as there are it will no longer be possible to see them as we once did.

* crafting in 6.0 has several issues that seem to surround the cost and availability of mats .

* content in PvE … no one knows for certain. We have seen the art work on PTS … and that is excellent. But the simple fact is that we know very little about the up coming stories / content.

* additional strong holds and addressing additional issues surrounding them ( item placement / and a wider variety of SH items )

 

Many of these concerns have been going on for a while now. This list is not comprehensive by any stretch.

 

That said … it is difficult for some to take at face value additional promises when we have waited for so long to get to where we are at.

 

For me personally … NO ! I'm not ready to start piling up the wood to burn the heretics just yet. I will wait for 6.0 to be more specific in asking questions as to what has been ignored and why ??

 

This game undeniably has as much potential as any I've seen in a long, long, time !!

 

I wish that there was more that I could do personally to encourage the right people to make this the best game possible. All we can do is to post on these threads and hope that someone cares enough to see those concerns translated into action … or at the least a response with some positive information as to what (if anything ) can be done …..

 

At any rate … IMO "complicated gearing" is just one aspect of the game as a whole !!

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