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Pulling before the tank


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So with the new tactical fp's it is possible to get into a group with 4 dps, 4 heals, 4 tanks, or any combination of that.

So why when you get a tank, 2 dps, and a healer do we ignore the trinity in tactical Fp's, moreover why do people ignore that their is a tank and jump on ahead and pull before the tank? Is it because we all know they (tactical fp) are easy?

 

I guess as a tank i get annoyed when people pull before me, as a healer i get annoyed when people pull before the tank cause NO MATTER how "OP" that particular person is pulling before the tank requires ME AS HEALER to work harder, and i REALLY hate as a DPS when the healer pulls before everyone.

 

Now, is this because people are IMPATIENT or do they really see the encounter as NON-THREATENING?

 

I'm inclined to assume most of you who are guilty of this are just impatient and use the reason "it is easy" as an excuse for your lack of patience. That is all. /endrant.

 

I don't have a signature, but i play on The Shadowlands.

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So with the new tactical fp's it is possible to get into a group with 4 dps, 4 heals, 4 tanks, or any combination of that.

So why when you get a tank, 2 dps, and a healer do we ignore the trinity in tactical Fp's, moreover why do people ignore that their is a tank and jump on ahead and pull before the tank? Is it because we all know they (tactical fp) are easy?

 

I guess as a tank i get annoyed when people pull before me, as a healer i get annoyed when people pull before the tank cause NO MATTER how "OP" that particular person is pulling before the tank requires ME AS HEALER to work harder, and i REALLY hate as a DPS when the healer pulls before everyone.

 

Now, is this because people are IMPATIENT or do they really see the encounter as NON-THREATENING?

 

I'm inclined to assume most of you who are guilty of this are just impatient and use the reason "it is easy" as an excuse for your lack of patience. That is all. /endrant.

 

I don't have a signature, but i play on The Shadowlands.

 

I think you would classify me as one of the "impatient" DPS types.

 

Reasons why I'll pull selective trash mobs on Tactical FPs,

1. I'm geared well enough.

2. I have CDs available to keep myself alive if no one else follows suit.

3.The tank is standing there, twitching, not moving, contemplating a RC or a "rdy?" in group chat.

4. There's a pat walking by, or will get in the way if we wait any longer.

5. I'm trying to move quickly because I'm only in at this point for achievements/pets/mounts/relic drops.

6. If it can be done with 4dps, there is certainly enough leeway for DPS to pull and burn down a pack.

7. The tank jumps in, only damages 1 enemy, and the adds are on the DPS/healers shortly there after. If I know this is going to happen, why wait for it to happen. At least I can keep some of them off of the healer, in conjunction with the tank.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right. But these are some insights as to why I would pull a group that I know I can kill, without waiting for the tank to jump in first.

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6. If it can be done with 4dps, there is certainly enough leeway for DPS to pull and burn down a pack.

 

This, a hundred times this, and the point about slow tanks, I normally chain pull when I am tanking unless I am really low on HP or the healer is ****** geared. It was one of the biggest problems I faced when I was DPS:ing, tanks doing ready checks before trash packs or just standing around waiting when everyone is ready and at 100% health.

 

I tend to votekick such tanks right before last boss with some snarky message (as I mostly play with guildmembers the tank is kicked) and then do it with another DPS companion instead. Thankfully I think a lot learnt from it since now this problem with slow tanks isn't such a regular issue anymore.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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I think OP's problem is more with people purposely pulling before your average tank, not an exceedingly slow one.

 

Example, I'll be on my Jugg, tactical pops and I'm the only one who can tank and has tank gear so I figure why not. So we start going along, and I have Warmongerer spec'd (reduces cooldown of charge everytime you're attacked) so I have it up very quickly, and yet I STILL somehow have people running ahead of me trying to pull first, as if its some sort of race or we're trying to set speed records or something.

 

For these special types of people, I'll generally drop and /ignore. Won't really matter to them for tacticals but if they ever want to get a regular hard mode queue to pop, too bad so sad, one less tank to carry you.

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I tend to votekick such tanks right before last boss with some snarky message (as I mostly play with guildmembers the tank is kicked) and then do it with another DPS companion instead. Thankfully I think a lot learnt from it since now this problem with slow tanks isn't such a regular issue anymore.

 

Sorry, but I've got to agree with namesaretough, you're an ***. It's people like you that has made me, essentially, stop tanking group finder or for random people who may ask.

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I think OP's problem is more with people purposely pulling before your average tank, not an exceedingly slow one.

 

Example, I'll be on my Jugg, tactical pops and I'm the only one who can tank and has tank gear so I figure why not. So we start going along, and I have Warmongerer spec'd (reduces cooldown of charge everytime you're attacked) so I have it up very quickly, and yet I STILL somehow have people running ahead of me trying to pull first, as if its some sort of race or we're trying to set speed records or something.

 

For these special types of people, I'll generally drop and /ignore. Won't really matter to them for tacticals but if they ever want to get a regular hard mode queue to pop, too bad so sad, one less tank to carry you.

 

Well yea at that point, if not in tactical flashpoints, I think the issue is with the DPS, if the tank is pulling each pack at a normal rate and not being afk before each trashpack and stuff, the issue is clearly with the DPS.

 

Sorry, but I've got to agree with namesaretough, you're an ***. It's people like you that has made me, essentially, stop tanking group finder or for random people who may ask.

Life is hard as a Darkside V Roleplayer, but a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

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I'll be honest... i pull in normal flashpoints as well when i'm on my dps. My main is a tank and it's been since my first day in this game. I know what the pace should be based on the group i get (i'm a stalker... i inspect everyone :p) and i know from experience many tanks are hesitant to set it, so i do it for them. I do use some judgment obviously... if the healer is starved for resources or the whole group is at <60% i pause for a while.

 

I honestly don't mind if dps pull first when i'm on my healer as long as they do it with some criteria. They never manage when i'm on my tank.

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I see tactical flashpoints as a chance to learn how to play and work as a team so when you get to the other ones you will know what is expected of you. This gives everyone a chance to learn what their role may be in the other flashpoints especially if you have a tank, healer and 2 dps.

 

If a DPS pulls in some of the hard mode flashpoints before a tank it can and has caused wipes.

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I'll be honest... i pull in normal flashpoints as well when i'm on my dps...

 

Do you disclose your intent when the group starts? Or do you run in one direction to pull a group while the real tank goes in the other and pulls a group? As a healer, those are my favorite!

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Do you disclose your intent when the group starts? Or do you run in one direction to pull a group while the real tank goes in the other and pulls a group? As a healer, those are my favorite!

No, i only pull what is strictly necessary :p

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I'll admit, I've started pulls in KDY on my dps many times (note that I don't do this in other flashpoints).

 

I'll go where the group goes, so as not to leave 3 other people on their own, but I generally won't wait for the tank to initiate combat.

 

Scarlet, I get what you're saying about tactical being a training ground, but I disagree. The reason regular leveling is an ineffective training ground is that things are easy -- there are no significant consequences for the Zerg approach. It's the same thing with KDY.

 

Something like False Emperor is a much better training ground. The first pull is an excellent example. Don't follow kill order, don't use CC, don't focus target, and the group will have troubles. Of course, some ops-geared players can carry a bad pug through that pull, but it's still better training than KDY

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You don't need a tank in a tactical FP. Heck, I had did storymode mandalorian raiders about a week ago with a PUG consisting of a commando, scoundrel, sentinel, and Treek. The commando did most of the pulling.

 

If you want that aggro then run into a group the DPS has just pulled and use your high threat AOE. Being a tank does not make you the leader, nor does it mean that the DPS has to sit around and wait for you.

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Something like False Emperor is a much better training ground... but it's still better training than KDY

 

I don't think waiting until a level 50 FP to train on FP etiquette is such a good idea! While False Emperor may be a great training ground, if you wait until level 50, your 'bad behaviors' will already be learned.

Edited by tharbison
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You don't need a tank in a tactical FP. Heck, I had did storymode mandalorian raiders about a week ago with a PUG consisting of a commando, scoundrel, sentinel, and Treek. The commando did most of the pulling.

 

If you want that aggro then run into a group the DPS has just pulled and use your high threat AOE. Being a tank does not make you the leader, nor does it mean that the DPS has to sit around and wait for you.

 

If you pull it you tank it.

Tbh, it's quite entertaining to see Marauder tanks dying quickly.

Edited by Halinalle
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I don't think waiting until a level 50 FP to train on FP etiquette is such a good idea! While False Emperor may be a great training ground, if you wait until level 50, your 'bad behaviors' will already be learned.

Well, speaking from the experiences I had when the Group Finder first appeared (around 1.3) I ran into 3 types of players:

 

1. Geared toons that already knew what they were doing, and wanted the Black Hole commendations.

2. Players that didn't know what they were doing and were amenable to advice.

3. Players that thought they knew what they were doing, would wreck groups and would ignore advice.

 

Type 3 is going to have problems to matter what. Trying to enforce "good behavior" in KDY for these players is going to run into a simple stumbling block: They think they already know and don't want to listen to you.

 

But no matter how many "bad behaviors" the type 2 had, all it took was one or two wipes on the first pull of FE before they'd realize we should work better together as a group.

 

When someone can chain-pull solo leveling mobs, and go into KDY and chain-pull mobs and succeed, there is no motivation to learn a better way to do it.

 

Let me give you another example. On Sunday, I brought my level 41 Operative healer into KDY. During trash the group was running around like a chicken with no head. I worked my fingers to the nubs keeping everyone up, but we succeeded. There was no penalty for a lack of planning or strategy.

 

We got Master Khoris as the end boss and the total group dps output was extremely low. It took so long to kill it made me doubt there was even an enrage timer on that boss. I spent most of my time dpsing, as the group was using the kolto stations. There was no strategy. There was no "tank holds aggro". It was Zerg -> Move -> Zerg -> Knockback -> Zerg -> Repeat.

 

How is this supposed to help players learn to be a team?

Edited by Khevar
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If you pull it you tank it.

Tbh, it's quite entertaining to see Marauder tanks dying quickly.

 

The truth is that only healers are team players.

 

'I see you are struggling, and I could solve this with one button. Instead, I shall stand here and do nothing, or I'll run off and pull a different mob. That will teach you to not do things exactly as I desire.'

 

DPS just want to kill stuff. Tanks are DPS who want to feel important.

Edited by MCaliban
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3. Players that thought they knew what they were doing, would wreck groups and would ignore advice.

 

How is this supposed to help players learn to be a team?

 

These are the players who ultimately will be kicked from the group. THAT is how they will learn! I just hope they learn that before level 50. Otherwise they will have a lonely existence!

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I don't care if DPS pulls ahead of me as long as we're heading in the same direction. Threat is something I can easily gain. There are only three things that DPS can do that will make me seriously consider leaving a party.

 

1. Pulling a second group while we're still fighting the first one. Don't do that. It's stupid.

 

2. Tunnel visioning elites and champions while there are sill normals and silvers walking around. Eat your veggies before you move on to dessert, please.

 

3. DPS-ing in a tank stance. If I have to tell a dps-er why this is stupid, then odds are he's no good anyway.

Edited by sanctified
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This kind of stuff is why I don't heal or tank on tacticals anymore, it's a mess. I always queue as dps for that

 

On regular flahspoints, as a healer, if I see there we have Chuck Norris with the group, I'll stop putting hots on everybody, so if he pulls before tank, it's no matter, he dies or kills everything on his own. I won't become a target of everything else he's not "tanking"

If I'm tanking, it will depend on what the others do. If healer heals Chuck, I will watch and protect healer but I won't bother with the dps who started the pull. Don't pull it if you can't kill it. Only if it is too annoying I'll start a votekick

 

 

I'll admit, I've started pulls in KDY on my dps many times (note that I don't do this in other flashpoints).

 

I'll go where the group goes, so as not to leave 3 other people on their own, but I generally won't wait for the tank to initiate combat.

 

Scarlet, I get what you're saying about tactical being a training ground, but I disagree. The reason regular leveling is an ineffective training ground is that things are easy -- there are no significant consequences for the Zerg approach. It's the same thing with KDY.

 

Something like False Emperor is a much better training ground. The first pull is an excellent example. Don't follow kill order, don't use CC, don't focus target, and the group will have troubles. Of course, some ops-geared players can carry a bad pug through that pull, but it's still better training than KDY

 

Yeah, the only thing you can learn on KDY, if you didn't know it already, it's the meaning of the word "grind".

But there are other places, before False Emperor, that are bad for dps pulling before the tank, like all those pack of dogs in lowbie mando raiders, who can tear to shreds a dps in seconds (unless they are overleveled ), or a few in Cademimu.

But the lowbie flashpoints seem to be less played since KDY. I guess ppl will have to learn on 55 hm, lol

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I'm usually a control freak when it comes to tanking, mainly because I still don't feel as confident in that role as to be mellow about stuff going wrong and being able to compensate. I need my first hit to give me that head start.

 

that said, in tactical flashpoints, I only get pissy in 2 cases.

 

1. when we have no healer and overeager dps jumps before people had a chance to heal up between pulls. call me crazy but I hate pulling at less than full health, because accidents happen and it's easier to recover when you are not already half dead starting out

2. when they run off on their own to pull a completely different group, when we are already fighting something. bonus points for when they do so in a healerless group.

 

other than that? I'll tank whatever I can grab, if they want to hold the rest and kill it on their own? /shrug. as a healer, I can usually compensate for most of that. I'm used to healing multiple targets, even on lowbie healer toons.

 

but I DO appreciate groups that let me do my job, even in tactical flashpoints. it just makes the run feel nicer.

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I'm a tank, and my sympathies lay with tanks for the most part, but I also completely understand the frustration of dealing with a slow/bad tank.

 

Story time:

 

I have years of experience on my Juggernaut, so I decided to make a guardian tank for my main republic character. After all, if I already have the skill set, why not use it again to make my alt's life easy, right?

 

Well, I surely had forgotten how much it sucks to tank with aJugg/ Guardian at a lower level. I have so much fun with my Jugg, that I've forgotten the dark times when I didn't have sweeping slash, an aoe taunt, or saber reflect. Starting over again was like learning how to type with three broken fingers, but I managed. I know all these flash point dungeons inside and out, and at the very least, it isn't hard to run around like a headless chicken hitting mobs with strike so that they leave your healer alone. Tanking ain't ****.

 

But, a problem my lowly guardian quickly began to encounter once he hit level 15 and earned his first taunt, were that other tanks, or rather people who THOUGHT they were tanks, were que-ing for dungeons, and getting in as dps because they had dps/tank clicked on their boxes. Apparently, this helps you get groups a little faster for some reason. I was always assigned as tank (got the shield icon and everything) because I made sure to uncheck that box as soon as I noticed it.

 

Anyway, these suckers ran wild trying to take over my groups. Poor jerks who thought Black Talon was the blueprint for how every FP run was supposed to be, and encouraging other similarly inexperienced dps to follow suit. I quickly found myself taking on the role of team dad for dozens of stupid noobies, gently explaining to them how Hammer station worked, and how you don't have to keep force leap on cooldown in order to be good at being a sentinel. It was real annoying, but let me tell you, man, the worst of the worst weren't sentinels and guardians: It was the damn shadows.

 

Wannabe shadow tanks were the worst. I mean it's bad enough that they wanted to be the tank when I was already doing it, but the fact that they almost universally sucked at it just made it SAD. They didn't use force breach, they'd spam their taunts and then just stand there, they didn't keep up their dark ward equivalent , they were just AWFUL. But they sure were good at using force wave to knock a bunch of enemies off me that I had nice and grouped up. Jerks.

 

Anyway, I qued in for a Mandalorian Raiders a couple days ago. I saw yet another wannabe shadow tank in combat stance taking up space in my group, but this one seemed different...he had a lot of health for one. Over 8k when he was only level 29. I did an inspect, saw his gear was good, and thought to myself that this guy probably knows what he's doing. I still didn't have challenging call yet, but I figured this guy would be doing force breaches all over the place, so why not just switch stances and let him tank? Why not? I asked if he wanted to tank, he said sure, so I backed off and let him roll. Guaranteed fast run, right? Let's do this thing, baby!

 

It was a friggen' nightmare.

 

He line of sight pulls EVERYWHERE (even though he was a shadow) he never used his dark ward, only used force wave for aoe threat, kept that dog boss real close to the damn dogs (we wiped the first time on it), and tried to use this super complicated kill order on the sith boarding party with what seemed like every single target mark he could find, but he tunnel visioned his targets and didn't put out any aoe threat, so naturally our healer kept dying. It got to the point where I rebelled, put my soresu form back on, and hijacked his group. He left in a real huff like a Prima Donna, talking crap about this is why people don't like tanking, and we should have respected him more, and I was left wondering if this guy ever got a nose bleed from all the paint thinner he was huffing. We cleared it with me tanking, naturally, and I learned a valuable lesson about being lazy. Or whatever.

 

So anyway, TLDR: Sometimes dps needs to take the group away from the tank. I read that enlisted men used to shoot officers in the back that kept getting them killed, so it's not like losing control of an FP is the worst thing that happened to a person ever.

Edited by sanctified
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When I tank my goal is for the group to never leave combat, I aim to be pulling the next group while the dps finish off the champs from the last one. Going from a pace like that to what tanks usually pull at, I've just started doing pretty much the same thing on my marauder as I level. Assuming the healer is actually at the keyboard, its never been a problem. Hell, even when the healer is afk we can usually clear trash.

 

If some derp is wiping groups, sure, he's a *******. But expecting people to slow down because you don't feel "comfortable" moving quick is lame.

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