In the german translation there are two possibilities for the effect. It states that it (the PvP one) will absorb 1012 for 6 secs, which could mean that it absorbs 1012 damage from every attack during this 6 secs or that it absorbs just 1012 damage.

The second effect seems not right to me because 1k damage within 40 secs of internal cool down means nothing to an tank. So I nterpret it in the first way meaning that 1012 damage is absorbed on every attack during the 6 secs based on the current bugged state.

Does the description in english is more clear or do we have to wait until BW fixed it?

In the german translation there are two possibilities for the effect. It states that it (the PvP one) will absorb 1012 for 6 secs, which could mean that it absorbs 1012 damage from every attack during this 6 secs or that it absorbs just 1012 damage.

 

The second effect seems not right to me because 1k damage within 40 secs of internal cool down means nothing to an tank. So I nterpret it in the first way meaning that 1012 damage is absorbed on every attack during the 6 secs based on the current bugged state.

 

Does the description in english is more clear or do we have to wait until BW fixed it?

The second effect is as far as i read it the correct one. And no, 1,36k absorbed dmg is more then the other relics are doing. 550 absorb/defense rating needs quite a lot of incoming damage to alone prevent 1360 damage.

Hmm, looks like we have to wait for the fix because the description seems to be very vague in english as well.

If it only absorbs the fixed value why it states "for the duration of 6 secs"? And some attacks are more than capable to hit hard. One example was one of our tries at the council in DP - Force Push 20k followed by Force Speed for around 7k and Thundering Blast for 8k all three attacks was unmitigated. This was within 2 secs coupled with a few melee attacks and I was a dead tank.

This makes absorbing a fixed value of around 1k sounds like a bad joke.

Hmm, looks like we have to wait for the fix because the description seems to be very vague in english as well.

 

If it only absorbs the fixed value why it states "for the duration of 6 secs"?

If you don't get hit within those 6 seconds, the absorb proc goes to waste.

And some attacks are more than capable to hit hard. One example was one of our tries at the council in DP - Force Push 20k followed by Force Speed for around 7k and Thundering Blast for 8k all three attacks was unmitigated. This was within 2 secs coupled with a few melee attacks and I was a dead tank.

This makes absorbing a fixed value of around 1k sounds like a bad joke.

You need to look at average damage. Relics are all about increasing mean mitigation. I know, the spikes stand out because they seem really scary, but they're very few and far between. We have hard data on this; it's not like we're just guessing. Bosses don't hit that hard overall, and the levels of damage they do put out are handily reduced by the Reactive Warding relic. I know 1.3k every 40 seconds doesn't sound like much, but it's a lot more than any of the other relics can supply.

If you don't get hit within those 6 seconds, the absorb proc goes to waste.

 

 

 

You need to look at average damage. Relics are all about increasing mean mitigation. I know, the spikes stand out because they seem really scary, but they're very few and far between. We have hard data on this; it's not like we're just guessing. Bosses don't hit that hard overall, and the levels of damage they do put out are handily reduced by the Reactive Warding relic. I know 1.3k every 40 seconds doesn't sound like much, but it's a lot more than any of the other relics can supply.

But is it practical?

From a PvP perspective for RW it looks like no. The chances of it falling during a burst phase where you need it is slim, it will almost allways be wasted on fillers or just random fluff damage. Which means for ranked at least where there are only two enemy dps anyway it would be more practical to use a dps relic for more pressure.

why can't they give us pvp tanks nice toys like dps get.

But is it practical?

From a PvP perspective for RW it looks like no. The chances of it falling during a burst phase where you need it is slim, it will almost allways be wasted on fillers or just random fluff damage. Which means for ranked at least where there are only two enemy dps anyway it would be more practical to use a dps relic for more pressure.

 

why can't they give us pvp tanks nice toys like dps get.

PvP is definitely a more interesting arena w.r.t. the RW relic. I suspect that I'll still be using it, since I have enough HP as a pure tank to smooth out some of the burst windows, and more importantly there isn't much else that would be better from a mitigation perspective.

What about predicted 8 man NiM DF/DP or 16 man HM DF/DP?

And KBN, does the RW relic get the last priority w.r.t damage mitigation?

Or does it get used up before absorb mechanics/resist mechanics/defense/shield rolls?

With patch 2.5 the RW relic will get a buff for assassins/shadows due to higher armor and thus reducing a higher % of incoming damage. But it's still hard to believe that a relic which absorbs roughly the same amount as there is incoming dps after mitigation, thats 1/40th of the damage absorbed and more likely closer to 1/41th or 1/42th due to proc delay and swing rates (using 8 hm council as example since I think that was the most prolonged "challenging" tanking part in this content). Anyway, I'll hold on to my 2nd dread forged relic until I'm sure

There's also the argument that the effect is a wash on "wet noodle bosses" since even an empty relic slot wouldn't significanlt affect the difficult level of a boss. And on high dps bosses or high spike damage the proc relics will give you more than the RW, which is thematically the same as assassin/shadow self healing by providing 34 hps.

So while the RW is better on average it will not "save" you, it won't even have a chance at saving you. Same as the self healing right now on shadows/assassins.

It absorbs just the fixed value one time only for a 40 second internal cooldown. I call this useless even if math tells other things.

I think it's the same fuzz which states that defence is of any use for pt tanks beyond the value you have to take with implants and earpieces.

The normal difference between theory and practice, in theory it sounds good well proved by formulas and what not but in practice it's useless.

This fixed value matches one or two ticks of an HoT. I wont use it anymore and go back to the on use shield + absorb at least I can decide when to use it.

I'll look at it this way. On my juggernaut, I ran Obroan Shield Amp + Fort Redoubt before picking up my reactive warding.

When Shield Amp procced, it raised my absorb by about 3-4%. It's been a bit, so my memory might not be perfect. But, I only had about a 40% shield chance, so that 3-4% was more like 1.4% or so, because a lot of the time it'd be useless. Which in itself is something to consider. SA relic procs, there's a chance for it to do absolutely nothing if your shield chance rolls poorly during its duration. But, that's still a decent amount of absorb, and would probably negate a happy chunk of damage, if it triggers.

Then, Fortunate Redoubt would raise my defense by about 3% at that point. So I would be from 25% to 28%. Now, you can look at that as "That's 3% less damage" because I'd 'avoid' 3% more. But, in practice, again that 3% might end up being completely useless based on the rolling mechanic. Fortunate Redoubt might also trigger to reduce my damage taken by 0.

Then, Reactive Warding puts a 1300 shield on my every 40 seconds. That's about 30 dtps reduced. But, more than anything, it's a guarantee that I will take less damage. And I haven't used it enough to tell whether its absorb takes place before/after shield, sorc bubbles, Blade Barrier, damage reduction, etc. But, it's still a static value that I can use to guarantee reduced damage. Which is a lot more than the other two.

For pvp? I can see strong value in the other two. For pve? A fight is long and sustained. Sometimes the small numbers make all the difference.

As for the ptech defense question, they don't always. But, some attacks can't be shielded. It's in those fights that a little extra defense can save your life, because instead of taking the full brunt of the attack, you take nothing. Look at Operations Chief's terminate. It's why Jugg tanks are so broken there. Terminate can be shielded, sure. But, it still hits decently hard. Whereas a Jugg tank will reflect one, Saber Ward the other, then Reflect the third. His Terminate, the bane of the sin tank, will do exactly 0 damage to a jugg, because of defense.

As for the ptech defense question, they don't always. But, some attacks can't be shielded. It's in those fights that a little extra defense can save your life, because instead of taking the full brunt of the attack, you take nothing. Look at Operations Chief's terminate. It's why Jugg tanks are so broken there. Terminate can be shielded, sure. But, it still hits decently hard. Whereas a Jugg tank will reflect one, Saber Ward the other, then Reflect the third. His Terminate, the bane of the sin tank, will do exactly 0 damage to a jugg, because of defense.

It's not a question it's a decision made by me and I'm fully aware of the cosequences. I rather make my healers happy while the overall damage taken is less then to be spiky. Attacks that can't be shielded can't be defended either so this argument is obiously false, added to this more attacks can be shielded then defended. Sure it's nice to avoid one of this hard hitting abilities, but since your healers are on you anyways I prefer not to get them heart attacks while dropping to quick to low.

For the relict it's also a decision made by me. I value around 1k absorb once every 40 secs as nearly useless given the overall damage a tank gets during this time even if it's guaranteed.

If other people thinks this new relict will be BiS because of some math more power to them.

Yes I do agree that 34 flat hps has a more reliable return value.

The direct comparison is 34 hps versus 620 absorb for 12 seconds (or 2 * 6 seconds).

I'm sure there's a value for dtps for which they're equal and I do remember dipstik or kbn mentioning it.

Anyway, I'll try out both of them and see which one works best for me, the differences between the two are small enough not to matter too much.

And please stop using the argument "I don't understand the math and math doesn't matter in a real fight", the entire defense system and the damage bosses do is based on models which include that math.

And please stop using the argument "I don't understand the math and math doesn't matter in a real fight", the entire defense system and the damage bosses do is based on models which include that math.

That'sfunny since I prefer to follow my own practice experiences rather then theoretical math It must be that I don't understand that math. Nice insult, keep telling it because it must be true, can't be that someone ignores the glorious shine of the math.

That'sfunny since I prefer to follow my own practice experiences rather then theoretical math It must be that I don't understand that math. Nice insult, keep telling it because it must be true, can't be that someone ignores the glorious shine of the math.

Ya know, if you comment/ask questions/whatever about a relic, and we offer constructive input as to why something would be beneficial, it'd generally be considered polite to not be rude back. Now, if we straight up just told you "No, this is wrong, you're an idiot" then yes. Be rude back. But both of us tried to provide valid reasoning as to why one might be better.

Also, if you're so adamantly against defense, then why not just go Shield and Reactive? I'll just stick with my FR and RW.

Ya know, if you comment/ask questions/whatever about a relic, and we offer constructive input as to why something would be beneficial, it'd generally be considered polite to not be rude back. Now, if we straight up just told you "No, this is wrong, you're an idiot" then yes. Be rude back. But both of us tried to provide valid reasoning as to why one might be better.

 

Also, if you're so adamantly against defense, then why not just go Shield and Reactive? I'll just stick with my FR and RW.

Something which I've been trying lately is Dread Forged FR + Kell Dragon FR since they do stack with the procs either going off at the same time or getting a little bit off-synch later on (which is better). I'll try 2 Dread Forged FR and see if they also stack (I doubt it). I do however think that 2 FR relics is viable due to the relative forgiving diminished returns on defence and the static defence gained, but for this I'd likely have to drop towards 300-450 defence rating while freeing up some rating for either shield or absorbtion. I listed shield as an option since I don't know if I want to get into 1300+ absorbtion.

It's amusing to me how people keep denying the math for absolutely no reason. It reminds me of when I tutor calculus.

Some people are questioning the viability of the new relics in PvP, since it is far less predictable than Operations. In my opinion, the reactive warding relic is even more valuable in PvP. In PvP, there are far more attacks that cannot be dodged or shielded. Many specs, especially DOT based ones, deal mostly internal and elemental damage, against which shielding and dodging have no effect. Also, the long 40 second lockout is less of a handicap in PvP, due to the frequent downtime between short fights in the average match. Obvious exceptions to this would be when carrying the ball in Huttball, and Ranked Arenas. In these two situations there is so much damage being focused on you (or your guarded target) for such a potentially long period of time that the mitigation provided by the other relics may surpass that of Reactive Warding.

That'sfunny since I prefer to follow my own practice experiences rather then theoretical math It must be that I don't understand that math. Nice insult, keep telling it because it must be true, can't be that someone ignores the glorious shine of the math.

Just one question to that: How can you follow your own practical experiences for different relics? We are here talking about 1-2% additional migation from a relic at best. The difference between different relics is so miniscule, even if there would be let's say a 10% difference, that's then just a 0,1% additional migation.

That's nothing one can recognize with practical experience, that's just recognizable with math.

It's a fluff relic with a long internal cooldown that may or may not benefit you in any real way.

Relics as a whole offer very little to tanks in general. Grab an absorb and defense proc relic. Change them out based on the damage you'll be seeing in the fight (M/R heavy vs F/T heavy). Grab the shield/abs clicky relic so you have an on demand relic that stacks with your adrenal.

No matter what you're doing with your relics they are likely not going to change much. Very very little of your overall damage reduction is going to come from them. Even looking at the argument of the warding relic and all its amazing ability. 1000 dmg/40s, avg 5.5 minute fight (330s) = 9000 damage absorbed in a perfect world. Overheal from SRMP is going to be in the area of 10-20 times that for comparison.

TLDR: Relics matter very little to tanks as a whole. None of them are world beaters. Equip the one you feel aids your playstyle the best. The rest is RNG.

Would the Arkanian RW be a better choice than the Underworld Absorb relic, until we down the boss in DP that drops the Dread Forged RW relic?

There currently seems to be a lockout bug with the Arkanian one that lets it proc around every 20s, it makes it pretty competitive with the DF RW one if you don't PVP (to get the Obroan one)